Spell Points vs. Spell Slots for Balance and Fun

[Endarire]

Spell Points (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm) turn every caster into a pseudo-Psion.

Prepared casters choose their loadout and can cast all spells spontaneously, so long as they have the SP. Spontaneous casters work as before, but get SP instead of distinct slots. Spontaneous casters also have more SP than prepared casters.

I've played in campaigns with spell points and I enjoy the flexibility, but it's also more tempting to blow SP when I don't need to think about spell slots.

Which system do you prefer? How balanced would it be to use the Spell Point system for all casters? How would you change things to enhance fun and balance?

EDIT: I don't necessarily mean the amount of spell points, but the notion of making everyone a point-based spontaneous caster.

I'm torn between using slots and spell points. I've played Wizards and Psions and enjoy both systems. Each has a different connotation. With slots, I'm saving spells for specific purposes. With spell points, I feel powerful so long as I have the points and don't need to think too hard about the math. (I need enough for synchronicity, grease, a full-power astral construct, and whatever else comes up, for example.)

[Curious]

Uh, prepared casters still have to prepare spells with SP, it just allows them to arrange their spells however they wish.

Anyways, I prefer SP for spontaneous casters, since it matches the fluff better than slots. The increase in versatility is also quite nice.

[Re'ozul]

My biggest problem with the spellpoint system as it is written is that it gives the wizard the opportunity to never having to prepare a spell more than once and at the same time greatly reduces the sorcerer's sole advantage in spells per day (just add up the point equivalent for normal progression)

Modified it could be a good system, but as it stands its somewhat unbalanced. Then again its unbalanced in Tier 1/2 so it only unbalances the already unbalanced.

[Mad Mask]

I recommend checking out Ernir's home-brewed spell-point system (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194002), which rebuilds the spell casting classes with spell points in mind.

In addition to having more spells known but less spell points, Wizard must specialize in a school and gains access that school's restricted spells, while the Sorcerer can choose any specialist spell from any school as long as they don't form more than a third of his total spells known.

[TOZ]

I've always said that spell slots are a spell point system without the math. So I don't see a lot of value in the alternate spell point system. The extra effort isn't worth the little flexibility you gain.

[Kerrin]

I like spell point systems (and I've played using some), but I feel they need some sort of spell cool down mechanism or other limiter so a spell caster can't just spam the same spell over and over.

Hmm, or maybe some spells are just "too good" so that in a free wheeling spell point system they become a "win button" that can be button mashed.

One way I addressed this in a spell point system was to have each spell level have its own spell points assigned to it instead of the character having one common pile of spell points across all their spell levels. This kept mages from being able to cast the same spell over and over - they were limited by the number of spell points assigned to that spell's level. Not perfect, but it was a try at it.

[Ernir]

Which system do you prefer?
I think spell-points make a lot more sense, personally, but that's just what happens in my head.

Playability-wise, it's not that different from playing spontaneous spellcasters with Versatile Spellcaster (which I take on... I think all my spontaneous spellcasters), IMO. Completely different from the prepared casters, where you're not so much conserving power as you are conserving your tools to use them at the right time.

How balanced would it be to use the Spell Point system for all casters?
The UA spell point variant system? Not very. The internal balance between spontaneous casters and prepared casters is shifted further towards the prepared casters, and spellcasting in general gets significantly more powerful.

I've always said that spell slots are a spell point system without the math. So I don't see a lot of value in the alternate spell point system. The extra effort isn't worth the little flexibility you gain.
With Vancian, you're not ignoring the math, you're just making it more discrete.

Personally, I think it's easier to keep track of one large number than a list of separate entities. But YMMV.

I like spell point systems (and I've played using some), but I feel they need some sort of spell cool down mechanism or other limiter so a spell caster can't just spam the same spell over and over.

Hmm, or maybe some spells are just "too good" so that in a free wheeling spell point system they become a "win button" that can be button mashed.

One way I addressed this in a spell point system was to have each spell level have its own spell points assigned to it instead of the character having one common pile of spell points across all their spell levels. This kept mages from being able to cast the same spell over and over - they were limited by the number of spell points assigned to that spell's level. Not perfect, but it was a try at it.
I have heard of attempts to combine Recharge Magic with Spell Points, but I haven't heard of it going very well...

I recommend checking out Ernir's home-brewed spell-point system (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194002)
Whee, thanks. :smallbiggrin:

[TOZ]

With Vancian, you're not ignoring the math, you're just making it more discrete.

Personally, I think it's easier to keep track of one large number than a list of separate entities. But YMMV.


Indeed, I find it much easier to subtract one every time I cast a spell rather than any other number. :smallwink:

[BobVosh]

I enjoy Vancian casting as it is unique to D&D in my experience. I'm sure there is a bunch of older systems I don't know with it, but it is just enjoyable.

[Psyren]

I much prefer points, but I definitely agree that D&D was not balanced with points in mind. (It isn't exactly balanced with slots either, but using spell points definitely widens the gap between casters and muggles further.)

Wait, Re'ozul aready said that, and better than I did. Um. If you nerf most dangerous spells, the increased baseline power of a points-based system could be excellent. And you'd have to balance Wizards out by letting them prepare even less spells than normal (not quite down to by-the-table-Erudite levels, but close.)

Hmm... Ernir kind of did that too. I guess I really don't have much to add.

[Feriority]

Let's look at the sorcerer. At first level, the new variant actually casts one MORE 0th level spell per day, and the same number of first level spells. At second, our sorcerer has an extra FIRST level spell instead. At third, THREE extra first level spells?

At fourth level, the sorc looses a single first level spell, true. At fifth level, though, our caster once again has an extra first level spell.

From sixth level onwards, the sorcerer has significantly fewer castings per day if they try to cast as though they still have spell slots. I honestly don't know if the loss in number of spells is an equal tradeoff in power for the gained versatility in casting; it's a pretty significant loss, especially when you get near 20th level, though the flexibility is also a pretty big gain. But it seems to make our spontaneous casters nontrivially more powerful at low levels, which are the levels where their quadratic growth normally hasn't started making non-casters useless. (That spike at level three is a bit weird, too).

[bokodasu]

I have heard of attempts to combine Recharge Magic with Spell Points, but I haven't heard of it going very well...

I'm playing in a game right now that's using a spell-point/recharge mashup, and I think it's going ok. I'm playing a psion, though, so I've got a completely separate modified power point/recharge system and I can't guarantee all the other casters are happy with their system. It also helps that almost everyone in our campaign is some sort of caster; it makes them ridiculously flexible and everybody is constantly dripping with buffs. (Always on Freedom of Movement/Inertial Armor/Energy Adaptation? Don't mind if I do!)

If you wanted to keep non-casters from falling even farther behind, we toyed with the idea of making all x/day abilities x/encounter, which is even more utterly crazy, but could be fun in a nutty high-powered kind of way. Honestly, I'd recommend playing 4e if that's the direction you want to go in.

Personally, I vastly prefer a points system to Vancian casting, but I wouldn't say one was objectively better than the other.

[Wings of Peace]

My biggest problem with the spellpoint system as it is written is that it gives the wizard the opportunity to never having to prepare a spell more than once and at the same time greatly reduces the sorcerer's sole advantage in spells per day (just add up the point equivalent for normal progression)


I like this myself, but I'm in a very bias camp that wouldn't be offended if the Sorcerer disappeared all-together. I also tend to try and participate in high power games so the effects are less tangible.

Mostly though spell points just feel funner and more magical to me.