Races with Massive ECL(Free Pancakes)

[Darthteej]

Ahh, good, I see I've caught your eye with my thread title. No there are no free pancakes, unless your idea of pancakes is sharing unusual game situations, and there'll be plenty of that.

Anyway...

I've always been a big fan of letting people play whatever race they want as long was they can roleplay it well, at least in theory. However, very few people actually take this opportunity. The problem isn't just that very few DMs tolerate such things, but also that the rules for monster classes suck. Hard. +2 LA is generally accepted as the upper limit of what it's possible to work with, and even then only when starting at middle levels. Even fewer players are willing to swallow racial hit dice.

Good that you've born with me so far, because the point of the thread is coming up. I'm looking for the experiences of the rare few who have seen monster regarded as basically unplayable be used as PCs. We're talking ECL of six and above here, stuff like Ogres, Giants, Trolls, Beholders, Angels, Demons, Dragons, or even Gelatinous Cubes. This is partially out of curisosity, but also partially to use as evidence for those who are looking for badly needed playtesting of such races. The input of both DMs and players is welcome!

What systems were used to Incorporate them? Did you find they unbalanced the game? How did you get around problems such as unusual anatomy? What happened if they started breaking the campaign?

Okay, I'm done. Your turn, GiTP.

[DeAnno]

I had a Werewolf in one of my games once, but it was a gestalt and I allowed the LA and HD to collapse into his first three full ECL (Instead of six down one side).

In general, I think most monster ECL is totally borked, and if I was running a campaign where being a monster was neutral/encouraged, I'd use the following rules:

If ECL > CR > HD: Reset the LA to be equal to CR-HD so CR = ECL.

If ECL > HD > CR: Set LA=0, and figure that optimized use of the feats from the HD can let the player play "above his CR".

If ECL < CR (I don't think this situation exists for anything), then play the ECL as RAW.

Edit: If a monster gives standard spellcasting/psionics levels, then it's ECL should always be at least one higher than the amount of levels it gives. For example, a race that automatically manifests as a 10th level Psion should have an ECL no lower than 11. I'm not sure if this rule is ever required, but better safe than sorry.

[Undercroft]

I demand pancakes!

I usually just handwave the LA and stick with RHD. Exceptions for the stuff like nymphs, etc that cast spells as a class but still have assorted funky abilities added on. A lot of the more physical monsters (ettins being a nice example) would be amazingly weak to play at what the book suggests (ECL 15 i think), so i tend to just dump the LA and stick with RHD being their current level.

[only1doug]

mmm pancakes

My current group has a Pixie (Fizz Thistle) and a centaur(Bayb Ruthless), we started at ECL1 and I used a houseruled variant of the savage species progression tables to cover the developement stages.

The centaur is now ECL 5 and hasn't yet finished its RHD+LA so hasn't been able to take any class levels yet, The Pixie is ECL6 which is comprised of Pixe LA4 / Rogue 1 / Fey Champion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10811892) 1.

Pixie Rogue progression
I have re-written the Pixie Racial Class progression chart to result in a L1 Pixie rogue at L5. You cannot take any other class until this progression has been completed to L5, for L6 you will be free to pick any non-forbidden class.

Pixie Arrows:
Any Pixie can learn to make Special Arrows (by taking the craft magic arms and armour feat):

Pixies sometimes employ arrows that deal no damage but can erase memory or put a creature to sleep.
Memory Loss

An opponent struck by this arrow must succeed on a DC 15 Will save or lose all memory. The save DC is Charisma-based and includes a +2 racial bonus. The subject retains skills, languages, and class abilities but forgets everything else until he or she receives a heal spell or memory restoration with limited wish, wish, or miracle.
Sleep

Any opponent struck by this arrow, regardless of Hit Dice, must succeed on a DC 15 Fortitude save or be affected as though by a sleep spell. The save DC is Charisma-based and includes a +2 racial bonus.


http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#craftMagicArmsAndArmor


All Pixies Meet the Prerequistes for creating Pixie arrows. (costs for making Pixie arrows are something I will need to work out)




Skill Points: Skills can be spent as If you were a L1 rogue, you cannot have more than 4 ranks in any 1 skill until you reach L6.

Bonus Languages: Pixies can gain any of the following bonus languages: Elven, Gnomish, Halfling.

Initial Stat Modifiers:
Str -7: normal Pixies are -4 str, as a very young Pixie you have a bigger penalty. (Note: this was a point buy game so minimum starting level was 8)
Con -2: as a child you are not as hardy as an adult.
Dex +2: agile and graceful, yet adult Pixies make you seem a bumbling child in comparison.
Int +2: naturally inquisitive, you are not yet as intelligent as a full grown Pixie.
Cha +6: Nothing could be cuter than you, awwww Baby Pixie....

Level 1: 1d6 Hps (+con modifier). BAB 0, Fort 0, Ref 1, Will 0, Skill points 8, Size Tiny.
Spell Resistance 12, Damage Reduction 2 / cold iron, Land speed 15', Glide (for every 5' dropped you will travel 10' horizontally), Trapfinding (see rogue L1), L1 bonus feat.
1/day Dancing Lights
1/day Detect Evil
1/day Detect Good
1/day Invisibility (self only) CL= Level in Pixie racial class.
Automatic Languages (Common, Sylvan), Bonus Languages: must be chosen from the Pixie Bonus language list.

Level 2: 1d6 Hps (+con modifier)(total). BAB 0, Fort 0, Ref 1, Will 0, Skill points +8 (total 16), Size Tiny.
Spell Resistance 13, Damage Reduction 4 (total) / cold iron, Land speed 15', Fly 20' (Poor), Int +2, Dex +2, +2 racial bonus to Listen skill.
1/day Detect Law
1/day Detect Chaos
2/day (total) Invisibility (self only) CL= Level in Pixie racial class
Bonus Language: any 1 language spoken by a party member or from the Pixie Bonus language list

Level 3: 1d6 Hps (+con modifier) (total). BAB 0, Fort 0, Ref 2, Will 1, Skill points +8 (total 24), Size Tiny.
Spell Resistance 14, Damage Reduction 6 (total) / cold iron, Land speed 15', Fly 20' (Average), Str +1, Con +2, Dex +2, +2 racial bonus to Spot skill.
1/day Greater Invisibility (self only) CL=Level in Pixie racial class
2/day (total) Invisibility (self only) CL= Level in Pixie racial class

Level 4: 1d6 Hps (+con modifier) (total). BAB 0, Fort 0, Ref 2, Will 1, Skill points +8 (total 24), Size Small.
Spell Resistance 15, Damage Reduction 8 (total) / cold iron, Land speed 20', Fly 40' (Average), Str +2, Wis +2, +2 racial bonus to Search skill.
1/day Lesser confusion
1/day Entangle
2/day (total) Greater Invisibility (self only) CL=Level in Pixie racial class
2/day (total) Invisibility (self only) CL= Level in Pixie racial class

Level 5: 1d6 Hps (+con modifier) (total). BAB 0, Fort 0, Ref 2, Will 2, Skill points +Int modifier x 4 (total 8+ Int modifier x 4), Size Small.
Spell Resistance 16, Damage Reduction 10 (total) / cold iron, Land speed 20', Fly 60' (Good), Dex +2, Wis +2, Int +2, +1 Natural Armour, Sneak Attack 1d6.
1/day Detect Thoughts
1/day Dispel Magic
Greater Invisibility (self only) at Will.
Bonus Language: any 1 language spoken by a party member or from the Pixie Bonus language list.


Recap:
at L5 you will have a L1 Pixie Rogue (LA+4 race).

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/sprite.htm#pixie

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm

Fizz and Bayb fit fairly well into the (fairly low optimisation party) group dynamic.

Fizz's player is the most regular of all my players and the invisible scouting role suits him well, he'll probably persue levels in Fey Champion class now as he doesn't desire to be a uber damage dealer.

Bayb is already a combat monster; Large, high strength creature weilding a greatsword, 3d6+lots damage. I've given her some custom magic barding that will allow her to reduce in size to medium for ease of dungeon delving but the centauroid climbing issue has been raised several times. Bayb's player looks forward to gaining some class levels so she can gain armour proficiencies.

Other Characters:

Stabitha: Bard 6 (elf) (Chaotic neutral). Played by my fiancee, Stabitha has one joy in life, stabbing things. (and singing about it). Possibly the worst optimised of the group.

Green Thunder: Monk 5 (warforged). using d20r monk class, player enjoying the experience. (newbie player).

The Traveller: Cleric of Fharlanghn 5 (human). uses wisdom as his attack bonus, constantly has to use all spells to keep party healed (a situation that may improve now that Fizz has a healing aura "Group hug!!").

Sir Edgar Eldergill: Paladin 6 (gnome). Party tank. seems to enjoy the game. (newbie player).

Tarquin Riverdance: Druid 2 (human): Deceased and replaced by...
Markwin Riverdance: Wizard 5 (human). Long time player, doesn't always pay attention during the game. almost exclusively uses Fiery burst reserve feat (which irritates some of the other players who would rather he used some diversity)

[Acanous]

Page 190 of the Player's Guide to Faerun is relevant to your interests.
the short of it: add a negative to all D20 rolls and caster levels equal to the ECL adjustment on the monster. Now set the ECL adjustment to 0. Play RHD adjustment as normal.

[Darthteej]

Page 190 of the Player's Guide to Faerun is relevant to your interests.
the short of it: add a negative to all D20 rolls and caster levels equal to the ECL adjustment on the monster. Now set the ECL adjustment to 0. Play RHD adjustment as normal.

That...that's GENIUS!

[The Succubus]

"Ok everyone - the orcs have seen you and moving into position to fight. What are your plans?"

"My dwarf cleric casts Bless on the fighter."

"My drow mage casts Magic Missile at the lead orc."

"My fighter gets ready to charge as soon as the orc is in range."

"My Gelatinous Cube engulfs the entire party and digests them."

[That_guy_there]

Whenever I've delt with Level Adjustments racial hit dice have been an instrumental factor on if i would have played it as a PC...


I've DM'd several games with PCs playing "high" LA monsters.

One of the hardest was an epic level Dragonslayer campaign where a PC was playing a Stone Giant. That's an adjustment of 18 levels (14HD + 4 LA) before he could take classes. At first he played the standard "i'm the biggest and toughest guy around" giant... until the Dragons showed him somethings were bigger and badder than him.

In a friend's campaign he let us play Lycanthropes... where we were allowed to chose our own animals. I went with the conservative Fleshraker (4hd)MMII. My friend went with the Bloodstriker (9hd).

Other examples elude me at the moment....

[Salanmander]

I know I'm slightly off-topic, because I don't have any real stories of that sort of thing being used in a regular game. However, one thing that's worth noting is that, depending on how you have LA interact with gestalt, having everyone use gestalt characters can encourage races with higher LA and RHD. I've seen someone play a pixie successfully at level 5 gestalt, for example.

Also, I wonder what a campaign where everyone was a lycanthrope (of varying kinds) would be like.

[agahii]

I let a player run a red dragon. I quickly learned that to play well I would have to lower the ECl (even a dragon I know shocking). I set it to CR = level

The dragon was still less effective that a fullcaster (at ECL 15), but who isn't?

[Salanmander]

I let a player run a red dragon. I quickly learned that to play well I would have to lower the ECl (even a dragon I know shocking). I set it to CR = level


That's actually pretty much the opposite of shocking. Dragons have huge amounts of HD for their power level, making them close to pessimal (after, say, zombies) for an accurate ECL.

[Urpriest]

I had a player play a Wyrmling Copper Dragon awhile back when we all were young and not particularly optimized. Tiny size and full plate (proficiency from a level of Fighter) gave him a very very high AC, but he couldn't do much else in combat.

[That_guy_there]

Also, I wonder what a campaign where everyone was a lycanthrope (of varying kinds) would be like.

It was nuts... for the first three sessions. Basically EVERYTHING was a lycanthrope. there were werewolves, weredinos, werebees, rediculous things... And with 3.5 adding the animal's physical ability modifiers to hybrid form gave my friend a 30 strength (18 base + 12 animal)... which he used to toss my Fleshraker at things.
After the first three sessions our DM threw his hands up and ended the campaign. (mainly because as natural lycanthropes we wanted to know if we could infect anything with our own version of lycanthropy)

[agahii]

That's actually pretty much the opposite of shocking. Dragons have huge amounts of HD for their power level, making them close to pessimal (after, say, zombies) for an accurate ECL.

These days I agree it is not shocking, but once upon a time 3.x was new and I assumed dragons would be fantastic at any ecl. I suppose my extra little blurb should have had a smiley after it.

[Yorrin]

I must admit I only skimmed the above posts, but I didn't see anyone mention Savage Species. I've seen several of the monster-races-as-classes presented in that book quite well. The Medusa in particular was quite well integrated into her party, though I've also seen the Hound Archon, Imp, Fire Elemental, Griffon, Shadow, and Rakshasa in play as well. These are a good option if the monster in question has such a write-up for it, but it is an admittedly small list. (Most of the true dragons got written up like this in one or two of the Dragon Magazines. I can look them up for you, if you're interested.)

[Gnaeus]

In my experience, they are usually only workable if they get to start at mid levels. I have played a half dragon half ogre who was quite effective (although somewhat glass cannony) at ECL 11, but would have been unplayable at ECL 8.

Pixies are usually decent. Ghosts or ghouls for some specific builds. Marrulurks make great rogues. I saw a treant in play once, but only in very unusual circumstances (where the immunities and reach were both really important).

Most other options I have seen were very, very bad.

[Xtomjames]

In almost all of the games I've DMed or played in as a character, except for the few that weren't XP based, ECL never was a factor. This is because ECL doesn't equate to actual character level. (Not to mention that ECL is completely broken in it's design and doesn't actually work.)

That said in many cases what many of the DMs I've worked with have done in the past is use Gestalt construction with HD progressions so that the characters aren't limited on max levels.

In one such case I was in a PVP 20th level. I ended up making a Gestalted Racial Class/Occupational Class character, an Illitihid Vampire Warlock. Suffice it to say, I won the PVP...

[dextercorvia]

Page 190 of the Player's Guide to Faerun is relevant to your interests.
the short of it: add a negative to all D20 rolls and caster levels equal to the ECL adjustment on the monster. Now set the ECL adjustment to 0. Play RHD adjustment as normal.


That...that's GENIUS!

So, spellcasters get LA+4 in templates for the low, low cost of Practiced Spellcaster and (possibly) avoiding spells with an attack roll for a while.

[CTrees]

So, spellcasters get LA+4 in templates for the low, low cost of Practiced Spellcaster and (possibly) avoiding spells with an attack roll for a while.

Oohhh... the faerun variant gives me an interesting, low-ish magic setting idea. 1) no classes get casting progressions. 2) races that grant casting grant casting normally. 3) ability to craft is figured normally, but since most races with a casting progression have caster levels and and spell access lower than their character level would end up at, even with the LA reduction, it makes them rarer and consequently more valuable. Figure costs based on character level, not caster level?

This would have magic rare, but accessible, and have an interesting dynamic, making ogre mages, dragons, demons, and so on a little more special. Needs detail work, but I like this start...

[TheCountAlucard]

I've got pancakes... what I haven't got is pancake syrup. :smallsigh:

@V: I'm afraid my Abyssal Investigation Charms will trump your Bluff check. :smallamused:

[CTrees]

I have syrup. Delicious, delicious syrup. Which definitely isn't Prestidigitation'ed aboleth mucus - perish the thought! *rolls bluff*

[Captain Six]

Dragons are pretty easy. Dragon Hit Dice is awesome and they get abilities at a reasonable progression. Drop Level Adjustment entirely and give them breaks between age categories to level dip in PC classes. Otherwise make them finish an age category before being able to take any other classes. After a while the age categories start coming faster and faster with even more shiny goodness. By the end they're getting massive stat boosts and two sorcerer levels every three hit dice.

I've seen them played like this twice and they were not noticeably unbalanced. The only unbalancing aspect is that the DM at the time let them have all movement speeds and natural weapons at level one (despite my advice to spread them out through the pre-wrymling stage the same way Savage Species would) but after the first few levels they did even out. Post-epic they might start to get crazy again.

[Acanous]

So, spellcasters get LA+4 in templates for the low, low cost of Practiced Spellcaster and (possibly) avoiding spells with an attack roll for a while.

Not quite. You're taking the ECL adjustment as a neg to caster level, and your RHD is still counting as levels in their own right. Practiced Caster would at best even out some of your RHD and make it so you don't end up with a negative caster level.

If you ended up going Dryad or something else that counts as an X level caster, it might get into the positives, but it would be an exercize to figure out which monsters would be the best fit.

Personal favorite is that mouse guardinal that gets focused movement and magic missile at will >.>

[dextercorvia]

Not quite. You're taking the ECL adjustment as a neg to caster level, and your RHD is still counting as levels in their own right. Practiced Caster would at best even out some of your RHD and make it so you don't end up with a negative caster level.

If you ended up going Dryad or something else that counts as an X level caster, it might get into the positives, but it would be an exercize to figure out which monsters would be the best fit.

Personal favorite is that mouse guardinal that gets focused movement and magic missile at will >.>

That is why I referred to templates rather than RHD. A Phrenic Primordial Half-Giant Wizard 1 with Practiced Spellcaster would have CL = min(1(Wizard) -3(LA) + 4(Practiced Spellcaster), 1(HD)) = 1

[Psyren]

You want to be a special snowflake race without rules headaches? Play gestalt.

[Taelas]

Racial hit dice (except Dragon) are not worthy of full ECL. Level adjustments are not worthy of full ECL, ever.

I've toyed with the idea of fixing that by marrying the two.

Every race with level adjustments need hit dice to match the LA, no more and no less. Essentially, whatever causes the level adjustment is the class features of the hit dice.

Let's take the Minotaur (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/minotaur.htm). Instead of 6 racial hit dice, we give it 2, and the ECL of a Minotaur with 1 class level is equal to 3. They're pretty crappy hit dice, but you're getting good stats out of the deal, and you don't have a LA to wrestle with.

If it has more RHD than level adjustment, you remove the extra RHD. For races with level adjustments higher than RHD, you're basically giving something for nothing. For races with level adjustments lower than RHD, you're removing a liability.

[TheCountAlucard]

Racial hit dice (except Dragon) are not worthy of full ECL.Idunno, Outsider Hit Dice come very close.

[Taelas]

They're among the better, yeah, but compare it to Warrior, and get back to me.

Okay, I forgot they had 8+int skills and all saves. That's a lot better. Outsider probably gets full ECL as well then.

[TheCountAlucard]

They're among the better, yeah, but compare it to Warrior, and get back to me.All right...

Warrior
d8 hit dice
Proficient in simple and martial weapons, as well as armor and shields.
2+Int skill points per level.
Full BAB
Good Fort save.

Outsider
d8 hit dice
Proficient in simple and martial weapons, and whatever armor/shield its statblock has it wearing.
8+Int skill points per level.
Full BAB
All good saves.
Darkvision
Not humanoid, and thus not subject to the "x person" line of spells
No need to eat or sleep.

I'm done now; honestly, I think Outsider is good enough to eke ahead of Fighter for the first three levels or so.

[maximus25]

I played a wight, evolved thrice, then succubus monster class level 2. I also had some +0 LA templates but those escape me at this moment. I had fast healing 9, DR 15/Silver, Greater dispel magic, cone of cold, and hold monster as spell like abilities once per day, and I grafted a scythe to my right hand. LA of 8 when I was done.

[Taelas]

All right...

Yes, you're right, I acknowledged as much in my edit before you even posted. They're almost as good as Dragons. :smalltongue: Though you neglected to mention that Outsiders cannot be Raised or Reincarnated, which is a fair mark against them (though not at all damning).

I thought they only had one good save and 4+ Int. I remembered incorrectly. They're worth full ECL... barely. I'd still not put them as higher than T5, if that. That goes for Dragons, as well. Skill points, BAB, saves and HD are not a substitute for actual class features.

Of course, a proper race has racial features, which can be.

[dextercorvia]

Though you neglected to mention that Outsiders cannot be Raised or Reincarnated, which is a fair mark against them (though not at all damning).

Which is why they printed Revive Outsider in SpC. It is level 6, but it doesn't care how long they've been dead.

[panaikhan]

Whenever this kind of thing rears it's ugly head in our group, the RHD go 'missing', and take with them all level-related stuff (like feats, skills, BAB etc etc.)
The player can then replace the RHD with class levels.

[TheCountAlucard]

Though you neglected to mention that Outsiders cannot be Raised or Reincarnated, which is a fair mark against them (though not at all damning).It did factor into my decision, though. Note that I said it was only really comparable to character classes up until about level 3 or so.

When your humanoid PCs die at that level, chances are that they ain't getting rezzed, either. :smallamused:

[Dralnu]

Our highest level campaign was level 12 and was lax on races/templates, our party consisted of this:
- Werebear Half-dragon Barbarian
- Tiefling Fighter
- Aasimar Bard
- (Some Flying Monkey Thing From Stormwrack) Monk
- Human Paladin / Fist of Raziel

I was the boring human. :smallsigh:

I think the werebear halfdragon had the biggest ECL, but he still was our heaviest hitter. We went up against an old blue dragon and he basically tanked it as it was flying around and wrecking us. I was the only person in the group who couldn't fly, so I spent like 6-8 rounds just buffing myself while the blue dragon was Heal'ing the party's damage and bringing them very low with breath attacks and AoO's. Finally, the round before it could breath again (metamagic breath I think?), the monkey thing grabbed me, dimension door'd onto the dragon's back, and I used my ready action to full attack for ~300 to drop it. Was epic.

The barbarian met his end at the hands of a cleric. It was either inflict spell or Harm. Either way, "bad touch."

[Dralnu]

Our highest level campaign was level 12 and was lax on races/templates, our party consisted of this:
- Werebear Half-dragon Barbarian
- Tiefling Fighter
- Aasimar Bard
- (Some Flying Monkey Thing From Stormwrack) Monk
- Human Paladin / Fist of Raziel

I was the boring human. :smallsigh:

I think the werebear halfdragon had the biggest ECL, but he still was our heaviest hitter. We went up against an old blue dragon and he basically tanked it as it was flying around and wrecking us. I was the only person in the group who couldn't fly, so I spent like 6-8 rounds just buffing myself while the blue dragon was Heal'ing the party's damage and bringing them very low with breath attacks and AoO's. Finally, the round before it could breath again (metamagic breath I think?), the monkey thing grabbed me, dimension door'd onto the dragon's back, and I used my ready action to full attack for ~300 to drop it. Was epic.

The barbarian met his end at the hands of a cleric. It was either inflict spell or Harm. Either way, "bad touch."

[Eldariel]

I generally find most creatures are worth less ECL than their HD. Remember, there's nothing wrong with having more HD than ECL since all it does is make you hardier; it doesn't actually make you more formidable offensively (which is why I have no qualms throwing 20HD Cleric 10s at level 8 parties; sure, they can take more punishment but since their offense is limited to that of Cleric 10 + some BAB, they don't actually kill players any more likely than a Cleric 10 with no racial HD).

There's the whole deal with classes generally getting cool stuff and races taking place of class levels being generally more boring. Meh.

[Greenish]

- (Some Flying Monkey Thing From Stormwrack) MonkHadozee don't actually fly, only glide.