Swordsage/Shadowsun Ninja/Master of Nine

[Mezmote]

I'm sure you've guessed the topic from the title.

First the facts: I like Tome of Battle. I'm going to play a 20th level GOOD bounty hunter mini campaign in a week or two. I've settled my eyes on this particular build; Swordsage 5/Shadowsun Ninja 10/Master of Nine 5. We don't have to optimize, but it wouldn't hurt either. I like the smoothness of the build. And I got some questions for the playground to ponder.

Abilities (through rerolling 6 lowest dies of 24 and removing the 6 lowest)

Strength 14
Dexterity 18 +5 from levels
Constitution 16
Intelligence 14
Wisdom 16
Charisma 12

1. Does the class setup make sense? Will it work, or should I swap some levels or rearrange some? I thought of getting a Warblade level within the first 5 levels for an increase in BAB and some Iron Heart and White Raven Maneuvers. But I'm not sure if that extra BAB is worth it.

2. He is going to be a human, and as such I'll have 8 feats to fiddle around. 5 of them are already occupied by prerequisites; Dodge, Blind-Fight, Improved Unarmed Strike, Adaptive Style and Improved Initiative. That leaves me with 3 feats to build with. I thought of Shadow Blade and Weapon Finesse. And no I DO NOT want to multiclass cleric and monk to get the bonus feats faster. As mentioned earlier, the smoothness of the build appeals to me.

3. Items. Where do I start? I know we'll get Wealth By Level gold. I might buy 2-3 ability boosting items, but other than that I need advice on where to spend the rest. I like fun or interesting items with daily charges and some sort of utility I cannot provide through maneuvers and skills myself.

4. And lastly, a bit of flavour. What do you see when you picture yourself this person? What does he say, and how does he dress? How does he react to everything? I thought of him as an eastern monk who believed that through utter dedication and benevolence, he could transcent this world and become a part of something greater. He is almos there. Saying stuff like; "Some people say there are nine paths in the Sublime Way. I say different. I say those paths are nothing but stepstones to the True path. And I seek to unravel all its mysteries". Or something like that =)

So what do you think?

Thanks for your time, cooperation and good natured humor =)

[Darrin]

First the facts: I like Tome of Battle. I'm going to play a 20th level GOOD bounty hunter mini campaign in a week or two. I've settled my eyes on this particular build; Swordsage 5/Shadowsun Ninja 10/Master of Nine 5.

[...]

1. Does the class setup make sense? Will it work, or should I swap some levels or rearrange some? I thought of getting a Warblade level within the first 5 levels for an increase in BAB and some Iron Heart and White Raven Maneuvers. But I'm not sure if that extra BAB is worth it.


Iron Heart and White Raven maneuvers can be obtained via Master of Nine. However, we'll need to know which specific fighting style or combos are you working towards. That will probably have the most influence on what levels you take when.

Swordsages can be a little trickier to build because with so many different options to choose from, it can be difficult to find a particular style/combo to focus on. (Warblade = Camaro, impresses the ladies but you can still drive it to work; Crusader = Dump truck, shrug off damage and unload whoopass; Swordsage = Formula-1 racer, high-performance tuning but you have to know what you're tuning it for.)

Shadow Sun Ninja aggravates me. It appears to support unarmed strikes, but as a non-monk it doesn't advance unarmed damage (your build will be doing 1d3 damage on unarmed strikes for its entire career unless you take the Unarmed Swordsage variant or Superior Unarmed Strike). Lots of great fluff, but the class abilities don't work well together... with its own class, or any other classes. For example:

Touch of the Shadow Sun: Difficult to use, if not outright broken (the useless kind, not the overpowered kind). First, you have to use a standard action touch attack, which may mean giving up a full attack worth of damage to use it. Second, the damage doesn't make up for losing those extra attacks: unarmed strike + Wis bonus. Yawn. And third, the mechanics may make it impossible to use more than once, ever. You have to use the positive energy touch on your next turn, but if you don't have an ally nearby to use it on, you may *never* get to use the negative energy touch again:

"After you channel negative energy into a creature, you convert that energy into a positive energy charge that prevents you from using the negative energy aspect of this ability until the positive energy has been discharged."

You *have* to use the positive energy in the next round. You can't "hold the charge" for a later round. If no ally is available, I suppose you can use it on yourself (you generally count as your own ally, WRT be damned), but if you get stunned or have to use that swift action for something else... no more Touch of the Shadow Sun, ever.

Flame of the Shadow Sun: Broken (the useless kind). It takes an immediate action to activate the cold resistance. On your next round, you can spend your swift action to hurl the fire bolt... except you no longer have a swift action, because you used an immediate action to activate the cold resistance.

Light Within Darkness: Works fine, so long as you have the resources to invest in a heavily optimized hide check (so you can attack + hide in the same round with a -20 penalty), otherwise you may waste an entire round trying to hide when you could be stabbing people. On the downside, the highest save for most creatures is Fort, and the DC doesn't scale up all that well.

Darkness within Light: I'm not sure I would ever deliberately use this, unless I've blinded every single opponent with the previous ability, but what are the odds of that happening? While blind, I no longer threaten AoOs, and every non-blinded opponent gets to attack me as if he were invisible (no Dex bonus, +2 to attack). Seems to be this is a huge neon sign blinking "Please shove a Sneak-Attack rogue with lots of sharp pointy things up my posterior sideways." The mechanics of attacking while blind aren't clear, either... it says I can no longer pinpoint opponents, but I can ignore the effects of attacking blind... does that mean I can pinpoint them now if they're blind? Otherwise I'm still swinging blindly into a square with a 50% miss chance, or do I get to ignore that as well?

Void of the Shadow Sun: Aside from the somewhat slapstick humor of enshrouding yourself in glowing bright flames and then trying to hide in darkness (hey, no Hide penalty!), this is another ability that requires a standard action and *has* to be used on the next round, which prevents you from full-attacking. 8d6 cold damage to all enemies in a 30' burst isn't all that bad, but the wizard could do that at ECL 8, and probably has a much higher save DC. The Fort save is still meh, but on the other hand it doesn't allow Evasion, which is a nice touch.

Child of Shadow and Light: Ok, light version... dazzled? Why do they even bother with this as a status effect? Ugh. I guess the "no save" is nice, but... I just wish it actually *did* something more impressive than -1 to attacks. The darkness version... could be useful, but that depends on how well you, your allies, and your enemies can see in darkness. Given the bookkeeping headaches, I expect after a few combats your DM will declare that all enemies have darkvision and sundark goggles by default, just so he doesn't have to recalculate attack penalties/miss chances every round. On the other hand, you could pick up a little pocket change with maybe a local theatre troupe as a human strobe light.

Balance of Light and Dark: This is an interesting ability, particularly how the Con damage hits at the end of the minute, making the usual Strongheart Vest/Naberius vestige techniques of avoiding Con damage problematic. However, if you can make yourself immune to Con damage, then the downside becomes laughably easy to avoid. A Talisman of Undying Fortitude, for example, is only 8000 GP. Necropolitan template also works, and Person_man's Blinky the Ninja (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6304375&postcount=12) is worth a look for some interesting ideas on what you can do with a Shadow Sun Ninja.

So... not sure if anyone is still reading at this point, but I'd like to know, what exactly are you trying to get out of Shadow Sun Ninja?

And again, same question for Master of Nine. What exactly do you need it for that's worth spending five prereq feats on? If it's a specific combo of maneuvers/stances, is it something that works just as well via Swordsage 20? If it's something outside your favored discipline, would Martial Study work instead?

It looks a little like Candy Shop Syndrome. You want *everything*, every possible manevuer/stance you can get your hands on, but I don't get a firm sense you know what you want to do with it.



2. He is going to be a human, and as such I'll have 8 feats to fiddle around. 5 of them are already occupied by prerequisites; Dodge, Blind-Fight, Improved Unarmed Strike, Adaptive Style and Improved Initiative. That leaves me with 3 feats to build with. I thought of Shadow Blade and Weapon Finesse. And no I DO NOT want to multiclass cleric and monk to get the bonus feats faster. As mentioned earlier, the smoothness of the build appeals to me.


Is the Unarmed Swordsage variant available? That frees up another feat. Dragon Totem Barbarian 1 gets Blind-Fight as a bonus feat, but sadly you can't pair that up with Spirit Lion Totem. Still... whirling frenzy is a good pick-up.

Other races to consider: Azurin (if you pick up any soulmelds, starts with 1 essentia), Silverbrow Human (for draconic soulmelds such as Claws of the Wyrm), Strongheart Halfing (Superior Unarmed Strike gives you the same unarmed damage as a small-sized monk), and Hadozee (they get Dodge as a bonus feat, see Stormwrack p. 151).

I don't see any smoothness. Are you going to try and focus on unarmed attacks? Because then you'll need Superior Unarmed Strike, maybe Improved Natural Attack, and possibly some soulmelds to get any decent DPS. If you go Shadow Blade + Weapon Finesse, are you trying to go TWF? Because if so, then you probably don't have enough open feat slots to get that working.



3. Items. Where do I start? I know we'll get Wealth By Level gold. I might buy 2-3 ability boosting items, but other than that I need advice on where to spend the rest. I like fun or interesting items with daily charges and some sort of utility I cannot provide through maneuvers and skills myself.


Talk to Shax (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148101). But it will help if we can narrow down what sort of combat style/tactics you want to focus on.



4. And lastly, a bit of flavour. What do you see when you picture yourself this person? What does he say, and how does he dress? How does he react to everything?


Given all the switching between light/darkness abilities of SSN... severe bipolar disorder. One round, he's a swiss army hummingbird on a cocaine binge, next round he's a mopish black hole of depression zombied out on thorazine.

[Mezmote]

Wow, that was a nice awakening call. All I saw before was the 20 levels that fit so nicely together =) You are right of course, I need a focus of some sort.

As this is a mini campaign of 2 sessions max I'd like to experiment with the Swordsage (my group haven't really played that much with Tome of Battle). But I'll drop the SSN and Master of Nine for now. As you pointed out there are just too many shortages in the design. I was thinking of focusing on Shadow Hand maneuvers and stances, for a rogue-y feel supported by Diamond Mind (for saves), Iron Heart (for random stuff) and Desert Wind (for mobility and damage boost).

I've tried to play a Warblade once and liked the Maneuver system, but I'd really want to try the swordsage for his "blade magic" feel. Might just go Swordsage 20 for an easier time building the character. Which also leaves a lot of feats open =)

I'd like to keep him on the "right side" of the alignment axis (meaning good), and as such might want to stay clear of Shadow Hand coupled with Tigers Claw. The combination of those two (however powerful it might be) just reeks of evil/sadistic to me.

Any suggestions for "must-have" maneuvers/combo's in this case (level 20 swordsage)? I'm not particularly good at finding and mixing them.

[Keld Denar]

If you want the more "Blade Magic" feel, I highly encourage you to specialize in Diamond Mind and a little in Setting Sun. Even a little Shadow Hand (just the teleports) would be very handy. Desert Wind is oft maligned as bad because it is the most commonly resisted element, but from what I've experienced, thats not always the case unless you are in a specialized campaign where you are fighting a lot of half red dragons or visiting the elemental plane of fire. Even if you don't take Burning/Searing/Inferno Blade manuevers, some of the mobility maneuvers you get in Desert Wind are fun.

I'll agree with what Darrin said. You don't NEED to PrC in ToB just because you can. You are often trading manuevers known for class abilities, and some of those class abilities just aren't as good as your maneuvers without specific applications.

[Darrin]

I'd like to keep him on the "right side" of the alignment axis (meaning good), and as such might want to stay clear of Shadow Hand coupled with Tigers Claw. The combination of those two (however powerful it might be) just reeks of evil/sadistic to me.


I don't quite understand what exactly isn't good about Shadow Hand or Tiger Claw. Using darkness/concealment to hide from or surprise an opponent that's trying to kill you isn't exactly "evil". As for Tiger Claw... is using a natural weapon to claw/bite/rend your opponent really all that much different from decapitating him with a 3-foot hunk of metal?

The different maneuvers and disciplines are just tools. None of them have [Good] or [Evil] descriptors. It's what you do with your tools that defines who you are as a person.



Any suggestions for "must-have" maneuvers/combo's in this case (level 20 swordsage)? I'm not particularly good at finding and mixing them.

Human Unarmed Swordsage 20
TWF with feycrafted shortswords, mithral chain shirt + dastana + chahar-aina (no ACP penalties)
Feats:
1) TWF, Travel Devotion, Improved Unarmed Strike
3) Shadow Blade
6) Adaptive Style
9) Snap Kick
12) ImpTWF
15) GreaterTWF
18) Martial Stance

Maneuvers:

SS1
Burning Blade
Wind Stride
Moment of Perfect Mind
Island of Blades (stance)
Shadow Blade Technique
Sudden Leap
Wolf Fang Strike
SS2
Mighty Throw
Hunter's Sense (stance)
SS3
Mountain Hammer
SS4
Cloak of Deception
Shadow Jaunt (replace Wind Stride)
SS5
Baffling Defense
Assassin's Stance (stance)
SS6
Mind Over Body
Insightful Strike (replace Shadow Blade Technique)
SS7
Searing Blade (ask your DM to clarify if it's a swift action or standard)
SS8
Death From Above
Comet Throw (replace Mighty Throw)
SS9
Dancing Mongoose
Dance of the Spider (stance)
SS10
Pouncing Charge
Shadow Stride (replace Shadow Jaunt)
SS11
Leaping Flame
SS12
Bloodletting Strike
Greater Insightful Strike (replace Insightful Strike)
SS13
Inferno Blade
SS14
Quicksilver Motion
Shadow Blink (replace Baffling Defense)
Hearing the Air (stance)
SS15
Raging Mongoose
SS16
Girallon Windmill Fleshrip
One With Shadow (replace Comet Throw)
SS17
Time Stands Still
SS18
Mountain Tombstone Strike
Feral Deathblow (replace Death From Above)
Balance on the Sky (Martial Stance)
SS19
Diamond Defense
SS20
Tornado Throw
Inferno Blast (replace Greater Insightful Strike)
Stance of Alacrity (stance)

(I'm not 100% sure on the prereqs, so you might want to double-check these picks if you want to use this)


If you want a 20-level build that can pull off every single 9th level maneuver, then take a look at my Archon of Nine (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137260).

[Mezmote]

Darrin you are a beacon in the dark =)

I've always liked the way ToB worked, but have little to no experience playing/building a character from that book. So these posts were quite educating. I have a few new ideas for the character, and your guidance has certainly shed some light on the matter.

[Draz74]

Side note: a Swordsage should never, ever take Dodge, even if he's going for Master of Nine. Desert Wind Dodge is way more fun, and still fills the prereq.


Human Unarmed Swordsage 20
TWF with feycrafted shortswords, mithral chain shirt + dastana + chahar-aina (no ACP penalties)
Feats:
1) TWF, Travel Devotion, Improved Unarmed Strike
3) Shadow Blade
6) Adaptive Style
9) Snap Kick
12) ImpTWF
15) GreaterTWF
18) Martial Stance

I disagree with almost all of this.

Travel Devotion isn't that great on a character that doesn't have Turn Undead to recharge it.

ImpTWF and GreaterTWF will miss a lot, so I personally don't think they're worth it, especially when you can just get Gloves of the Balanced Hand (MIC) instead of ITWF.

Most DMs will probably give you some penalty for wearing armor as an Unarmed Swordsage, even though RAW just says you're nonproficient (which doesn't matter if you wear armor with no ACP). And if you go regular Swordsage instead of Unarmed, for the sake of better AC, then Snap Kick (even though it's a pretty good feat) might not be worth it if you have to spend two other feats to make your unarmed attacks effective.

Adaptive Style, on the other hand, should be taken at Level 3 at the latest.

Shadow Blade isn't as good as everyone thinks it is, unless you're really DEX-focused and/or really Shadow Hand-focused. Particularly since you don't intend to use Shadow Hand a whole lot, you will want to use good Stances from other disciplines, which makes Shadow Blade pretty useless to you a lot of the time.

Swordsages get 6 stances without spending any feats on them. Considering you can only use one at a time, spending a feat on another one seems questionable. But it depends whether you want Balance on the Sky, I guess. It's a decent stance, although by the level you get it, you might have decent Flight options already, from equipment or party buffs. (You definitely want the other high-level Stance in Darrin's progression, Stance of Alacrity.)

Finally, Two-Weapon Fighting is certainly not a bad option, especially if you don't mind using Tiger Claw quite a bit, but it's not necessary either. With some healthy Diamond Mind, a Swordsage can do lots of damage with just one weapon if you prefer such a style.

So that frees up ... just about all of your feats. You'll still want Adaptive Style, and maybe a few of the others, depending on what fighting style you want. But I haven't seen you pick such a style yet. (Unarmed brawler/martial artist? TWF? Sword and board? Big Honkin' Greatsword? Battlefield control to defend your allies?)

[Darrin]

Side note: a Swordsage should never, ever take Dodge, even if he's going for Master of Nine. Desert Wind Dodge is way more fun, and still fills the prereq.


I prefer Expeditious Dodge (particularly if I've got any kind of Pounce going on) or Midnight Dodge (if I have any soulmelds).

Desert Wind Dodge doesn't work with Shadow Blade.



I disagree with almost all of this.

Travel Devotion isn't that great on a character that doesn't have Turn Undead to recharge it.


Actually, you're correct. The feat choices aren't all that optimal, and I forgot that Travel Devotion doesn't work for most ToB builds (you need those swift actions for boosts/stances/counters!).




ImpTWF and GreaterTWF will miss a lot, so I personally don't think they're worth it, especially when you can just get Gloves of the Balanced Hand (MIC) instead of ITWF.


Also true, but I was trying to put together a quick "napkin" build. You're generally better off with Gloves of the Balanced Hand (8000 GP) and use those feat slots for something else.



Most DMs will probably give you some penalty for wearing armor as an Unarmed Swordsage, even though RAW just says you're nonproficient (which doesn't matter if you wear armor with no ACP).


Huh? You lost me... what would the penalty be, if not applying the ACP to attacks?



And if you go regular Swordsage instead of Unarmed, for the sake of better AC, then Snap Kick (even though it's a pretty good feat) might not be worth it if you have to spend two other feats to make your unarmed attacks effective.


AC would be about the same... you still get an AC bonus from Wis, and mithral chain shirt + dastana + chahar-aina is about the same or better than a mithral breastplate. Improved Natural Attack can be had via Fanged Ring, and if the build starts play at Swordsage 20, Superior Unarmed Strike is largely unnecessary.



Adaptive Style, on the other hand, should be taken at Level 3 at the latest.


*shrug* Personal preference. Most fights through levels 1-5 don't last long enough to worry much about Adaptive Style.



Shadow Blade isn't as good as everyone thinks it is, unless you're really DEX-focused and/or really Shadow Hand-focused. Particularly since you don't intend to use Shadow Hand a whole lot, you will want to use good Stances from other disciplines, which makes Shadow Blade pretty useless to you a lot of the time.


Personal opinion, then: I tend to think of the Shadow Hand stances as being superior to all the other stances (except maybe Stance of Alacrity). The other stances I picked mostly for out-of-combat uses, prereqs, or "detect invisible" stuff.



Swordsages get 6 stances without spending any feats on them. Considering you can only use one at a time, spending a feat on another one seems questionable. But it depends whether you want Balance on the Sky, I guess.


Forgot you have to keep one hand empty... but nice to have at-will flight available, if you need it. It's not really a "must have" at ECL 18, though.



Finally, Two-Weapon Fighting is certainly not a bad option, especially if you don't mind using Tiger Claw quite a bit, but it's not necessary either. With some healthy Diamond Mind, a Swordsage can do lots of damage with just one weapon if you prefer such a style.


The Insightful Strikes can be loads of fun when you optimize your Concentration check, yes... but I'd rather full attack + Dex damage + Searing Blade. The problem with TWF swordsages is you have to ignore pretty much all your standard-action strikes and load up on boosts/counters, but it can be difficult to predict when you'll need a boost or when you should use a strike.

Tiger Claw doesn't actually help TWF all that much, aside from the Mongoose stuff, Pouncing Charge, and one or two other boosts. Most of it is some kind of Jump check + strike with bonus damage, which is useless for TWF builds. But I do like Death From Above for move + attack + more free movement.



So that frees up ... just about all of your feats. You'll still want Adaptive Style, and maybe a few of the others, depending on what fighting style you want. But I haven't seen you pick such a style yet. (Unarmed brawler/martial artist? TWF? Sword and board? Big Honkin' Greatsword? Battlefield control to defend your allies?)

Check the Tome of Battle Tricks/Combos/Library (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870630/Tome_of_Battle:_TricksCombosLibrary) for offensive combos, that should give you something to build towards. Swordsages get so many maneuvers, they can have several combos "on tap".

The build I posted was building towards:

Time Stands Still: two full-attack actions, (3 attacks + 3 offhand attacks + 1 snap kick) = 14 attacks
+ Dancing Mongoose: +4 more attacks
+ Girallon Windmill Fleshrip: 8+ attacks = 20d6 rend damage

(actually, Inferno Blade dishes out better damage than GWFR as your second boost, 10.5 + 20 IL = 30.5 damage on every attack that hits, while 20d6 rend damage = only 70 damage on average. But "Girallon Windmill Fleshrip" sounds *so* much cooler!)

Anything still not dead after that, follow up with Mountain Tombstone Strike, Strike of Perfect Clarity, then refresh, rinse, repeat.

[Draz74]

I prefer Expeditious Dodge (particularly if I've got any kind of Pounce going on) or Midnight Dodge (if I have any soulmelds).
Yep, those are both valid options on the right builds too. Although I'm not sure I've ever seen a Master of Nine build that also managed to squeeze in Incarnum.


Desert Wind Dodge doesn't work with Shadow Blade.
Oh, I forgot about its weapon restrictions. Ick, yeah, that's a significant problem.


Actually, you're correct. The feat choices aren't all that optimal, and I forgot that Travel Devotion doesn't work for most ToB builds (you need those swift actions for boosts/stances/counters!).
Well, the nice thing about Travel Devotion is that you only have to use one swift action, then it lasts for ten rounds. But yeah, still not worth it if it's 1/day.


Huh? You lost me... what would the penalty be, if not applying the ACP to attacks?
It's commonly accepted as RAI that the Unarmed Swordsage was supposed to lose WIS-to-AC if wearing any armor, like the Monk.

And considering Unarmed Swordsage is presented in the same paragraph as Arcane Swordsage, it's a difficult realm to be a stickler for RAW. :smallsigh:


if the build starts play at Swordsage 20, Superior Unarmed Strike is largely unnecessary.
True. I was considering SUS under several assumptions: the player still wants to have a martial artist feeling, the player will switch to regular Swordsage (because he wants armor). Although it's also worth mentioning that I doubt the game will start at Level 20.


*shrug* Personal preference. Most fights through levels 1-5 don't last long enough to worry much about Adaptive Style.
OK, that's fair.


Personal opinion, then: I tend to think of the Shadow Hand stances as being superior to all the other stances (except maybe Stance of Alacrity). The other stances I picked mostly for out-of-combat uses, prereqs, or "detect invisible" stuff.

The Insightful Strikes can be loads of fun when you optimize your Concentration check, yes... but I'd rather full attack + Dex damage + Searing Blade.
I tend to get leery of how excited people get about Assassin's stance. Contrary to popular Ork philosophy, there is such a thing in D&D as damage overkill, especially to a single target. It's a waste to deal 140 damage in one round to a monster that has only 60 hit points.

Of course, if overkill is the style the player wants (and it can be fun!), then TWF/Shadow Blade/Sneak Attack/Desert Wind Boosts/etc. is one great way of getting it. But otherwise, I tend to feel Swordsages do "enough" damage without focusing on it quite this hard.

As for non-Shadow-Hand stances that are competitive in-combat choices ... besides Stance of Alacrity, the major one is Shifting Defense (with a feat for Combat Reflexes, of course). Incredible boost to your survivability.

Wolf Pack Tactics is also a tempting (high-level) option for a TWFighter. Blood in the Water and Leaping Dragon Stance are pretty good, but you kind of have to focus your build around them to make them worth it. Step of the Wind is awesome if you have the rare DM who actually uses lots of difficult terrain. Roots of the Mountain is pretty good if you use a reach weapon.


The problem with TWF swordsages is you have to ignore pretty much all your standard-action strikes and load up on boosts/counters, but it can be difficult to predict when you'll need a boost or when you should use a strike.
Yep. Personally, I prefer flexible swordsages who can do reasonably well either way: TWF full attacks with tiger claw boosts, or counter/move/strike. For that sort of build, I'd probably spend a feat on TWF and maybe another on Snap Kick, but I wouldn't go further than that.

Of course, if I'm going all-out Shadow Hand-themed, and getting Gloom Razor and such, then Shadow Blade will absolutely be included.


Tiger Claw doesn't actually help TWF all that much, aside from the Mongoose stuff, Pouncing Charge, and one or two other boosts.
Oh, so "only" six Tiger Claw maneuvers are especially useful for TWF? :smalltongue:

(Sudden Leap, Wolf Fang Strike, Dancing/Raging Mongoose, Pouncing Charge, Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip. Oh, and some stances, if you want to go that way.)


Most of it is some kind of Jump check + strike with bonus damage, which is useless for TWF builds. But I do like Death From Above for move + attack + more free movement.
Yeah -- maxxing out your Jump check isn't exactly a painful resource expenditure for a Swordsage, and if you have that, then (some of) these strikes are a nice way to get a standard attack-Strike option, like I mentioned earlier.

Besides Death from Above, Swooping Dragon Strike is amazing. Claw at the Moon is decent at low levels. Otherwise, yeah, the Jump-based strikes aren't all that shiny.


(actually, Inferno Blade dishes out better damage than GWFR as your second boost, 10.5 + 20 IL = 30.5 damage on every attack that hits, while 20d6 rend damage = only 70 damage on average. But "Girallon Windmill Fleshrip" sounds *so* much cooler!)
Less vulnerable to fire resistance, too.


Anything still not dead after that, follow up with Mountain Tombstone Strike, Strike of Perfect Clarity, then refresh, rinse, repeat.

How are you getting Strike of Perfect Clarity? :smallconfused: :smallwink:

Here's (a rough draft of) a build more along my preferences:
Normal (not Unarmed) Human Swordsage 20
Feats
(1) Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
(3) Weapon Finesse (I don't like depending on Feycraft all the time)
(6) Adaptive Style
(9) Two-Weapon Fighting
(12) Combat Reflexes
(15) Martial Stance
(18) Exotic Weapon Proficiency (spiked chain)

Maneuvers
(1) Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Wolf Fang Strike, Mighty Throw, Counter Charge, Distracting Ember, Burning Blade; (stance) Step of the Wind
(2) Sudden Leap; (stance) Island of Blades
(3) Mountain Hammer
(4) Baffling Defense; (swap Wolf Fang Strike for) Cloak of Deception
(5) Shadow Jaunt; (stance) Assassin's Stance
(6) Mind over Body; (swap Sapphire Nightmare Blade for) Insightful Strike
(7) Death from Above
(8) Searing Blade; (swap Mighty Throw for) Comet Throw
(9) Pouncing Charge; (stance) Hearing the Air
(10) Shadow Stride; (swap Distracting Ember for) Mirrored Pursuit
(11) Ballista Throw
(12) Dancing Mongoose; (swap Insightful Strike for) Greater Insightful Strike
(13) Shadow Blink
(14) Swooping Dragon Strike; (swap Shadow Jaunt for) Inferno Blade; (stance) Shifting Defense
(15) Raging Mongoose; (stance) Stance of Alacrity
(16) Diamond Nightmare Blade; (swap Burning Blade for) Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip
(17) Time Stands Still
(18) Five-Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike; (swap Searing Blade for) Tornado Throw
(19) Mountain Tombstone Strike
(20) Diamond Defense; (swap Dancing Mongoose for) Hydra Slaying Strike; (stance) Wolf Pack Tactics

[NOhara24]

4. And lastly, a bit of flavour. What do you see when you picture yourself this person? What does he say, and how does he dress? How does he react to everything? I thought of him as an eastern monk who believed that through utter dedication and benevolence, he could transcent this world and become a part of something greater. He is almos there. Saying stuff like; "Some people say there are nine paths in the Sublime Way. I say different. I say those paths are nothing but stepstones to the True path. And I seek to unravel all its mysteries". Or something like that =)

So what do you think?

Thanks for your time, cooperation and good natured humor =)

Well he is a Master of Nine. That sounds just like one, the quote that you mentioned. That none of the one path will do better than the rest, but by only mastering all 9, do you become better. I could see him working toward a goal of reaching nirvana or something. Meditating and the like.

[Darrin]

Well, the nice thing about Travel Devotion is that you only have to use one swift action, then it lasts for ten rounds. But yeah, still not worth it if it's 1/day.


Yes, but you still need to use your swift actions to move up to your speed. If you use your swifts to move, then you can't use 'em for boosts, and using a counter prevents you from moving+full attack next round. I guess it's more of a headache for Warblades, who also usually need their swift actions to recover their maneuvers.



It's commonly accepted as RAI that the Unarmed Swordsage was supposed to lose WIS-to-AC if wearing any armor, like the Monk.


It was my understanding that RAI was they should *gain* an AC bonus if wearing no armor, as a monk. Either that or they keep their Wis bonus to AC in light armor, and also get it when wearing no armor.



I tend to get leery of how excited people get about Assassin's stance. Contrary to popular Ork philosophy, there is such a thing in D&D as damage overkill, especially to a single target. It's a waste to deal 140 damage in one round to a monster that has only 60 hit points.


+7 average damage on each hit isn't overkill. TWF needs bonus damage to stay competitive with Power Attack.



As for non-Shadow-Hand stances that are competitive in-combat choices ... besides Stance of Alacrity, the major one is Shifting Defense (with a feat for Combat Reflexes, of course). Incredible boost to your survivability.


I've been leery of that one, because the designer's intent isn't clear and it requires a DM ruling to clarify how it's supposed to work. Does it trigger before the attack hits, only on missed attacks, or after every attack? Very powerful, yes, but likely to get banned.



How are you getting Strike of Perfect Clarity? :smallconfused: :smallwink:


Whoops, got confused, thought it was Diamond Mind for some reason. Uh... I'll change that to Tornado Throw ("Yes, I would like my combat round to last half-an-hour of real-time!")



Here's (a rough draft of) a build more along my preferences:
[...]
(1) Combat Expertise, Improved Trip


The various Mighty Throw maneuvers do almost everything Improved Trip can do (except the free attack) but don't cost two feats. But the Throws require a standard action, while Improved Trip can be attempted on any attack, including TWF, AoOs, etc. Hmm.



(3) Weapon Finesse (I don't like depending on Feycraft all the time)


Works better with unarmed strikes/Snap Kick, too.



(9) Two-Weapon Fighting


Kinda late... but assuming you have Gloves of the Balanced Hand... ok.



(18) Exotic Weapon Proficiency (spiked chain)


At that ECL, buying a skillful spiked chain should be easy. Getting high-level stances is a pain, though... I'd rather grab a 7th-8th level stance or another 9th level maneuver.



Maneuvers


No arguments there, all good picks.

[Draz74]

Yes, but you still need to use your swift actions to move up to your speed. If you use your swifts to move, then you can't use 'em for boosts, and using a counter prevents you from moving+full attack next round. I guess it's more of a headache for Warblades, who also usually need their swift actions to recover their maneuvers.
Oh, yeah. Forgot that part. Yes, it's worse for Warblades, but it's a pain for Swordsages too.


It was my understanding that RAI was they should *gain* an AC bonus if wearing no armor, as a monk. Either that or they keep their Wis bonus to AC in light armor, and also get it when wearing no armor.

Well, RAI also (IMO) should have the normal Swordsage gaining WIS to AC with no armor. The Unarmed variant should retain that, but lose the bonus in light armor.

That way, there's actually a difficult decision between Unarmed Swordsage vs. normal Swordsage. They both have their perks.


+7 average damage on each hit isn't overkill. TWF needs bonus damage to stay competitive with Power Attack.

Yeah, I took Assassin's Stance on my build, too. But I don't plan to stay in it all the time. Particularly not needed in rounds where lots of other bonus damage comes in, e.g. Desert Wind boosts.


I've been leery of that one, because the designer's intent isn't clear and it requires a DM ruling to clarify how it's supposed to work. Does it trigger before the attack hits, only on missed attacks, or after every attack? Very powerful, yes, but likely to get banned.
The text is ambiguous, yeah. :smallsigh: But either of the latter interpretations is powerful-but-not-broken.


The various Mighty Throw maneuvers do almost everything Improved Trip can do (except the free attack) but don't cost two feats. But the Throws require a standard action, while Improved Trip can be attempted on any attack, including TWF, AoOs, etc. Hmm.

The feat still adds +4 to your trip attempts. That's mostly why I took it. Also nice for the free attack if you choose not to throw your target far from your threat zone, though.


Works better with unarmed strikes/Snap Kick, too.
True.


Kinda late... but assuming you have Gloves of the Balanced Hand... ok.
Yeah, good to take earlier if you can get the feats somehow ... or if you do go with Unarmed Variant.

In the meantime, Wolf Fang Strike lets you pretend to have TWF in the early levels (and also be more mobile).


At that ECL, buying a skillful spiked chain should be easy. Getting high-level stances is a pain, though... I'd rather grab a 7th-8th level stance or another 9th level maneuver.

Hmmm, you're right, EWP isn't really optimal at this level ... but I wasn't sure what to pick instead. Most of the feats I would really like (e.g. Snap Kick) have other feats as prereqs.

Another stance seems superfluous when I already have 7 good ones competing for my attention. The remaining Level 9 maneuvers (Inferno Blast, Feral Death Blow) are pretty lame.

Perhaps Extra Readied Maneuver? (The one all the Warblades wish they could take ...)