Rage + Knowledge Devotion?

[maestrodesigns]

While building some character concepts, I ended up with an intelligent and tactical warrior with a short temper.

This fella uses his extensive knowledge of his enemy's weaknesses to his advantage. But what if his temper plays up... Can he still exploit those weaknesses?

Lets go into an example:
The encounter starts with some Orcs provoking me. :smallfurious:
Time to set them straight: I roll a knowledge devotion check vs those Orcs and start combat by enraging and charging.

Are the bonuses from knowledge devotion still useable while raging?

[magic9mushroom]

RAW yes, RAMS probably not.

[Fouredged Sword]

By Raw yes. Take the exalted rage feat if your dm complains.

A nice mix of factotum, barbarian, and warblade sounds about right. Go into the tiger claw line and fish for critical hits with TWF keen Kuri. Ranger could be added if you are fighting a particular foe.

Be human and take able learner for all skills as class skills (in practice) for all your classes.

Remember that the fast movement of a barbarian adds +4 to all jump checks due to increase movement.

[FMArthur]

RAW it works, but your DM/group may rule against you upon explanation. As an ongoing bonus provided by an Int-based skill, it's probably not RAI. It sort of depends on just how mindless you picture your Rage to be; the restrictions on your skills does suggest very mindless Rages, but maybe you could work out a small amount of refluffing, like a heroic epiphany.

This does seem like the absolute perfect scenario for the Moment of Clarity (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/moment-of-clarity-ex) Pathfinder Rage power, though. If your group allows some Pathfinder -> 3.5 conversion, you could estimate that it would be worth a feat for a regular Barbarian to obtain, using the Extra Rage Power feat as reference.


By Raw yes. Take the exalted rage feat if your dm complains.

A nice mix of factotum, barbarian, and warblade sounds about right. Go into the tiger claw line and fish for critical hits with TWF keen Kuri. Ranger could be added if you are fighting a particular foe.

Be human and take able learner for all skills as class skills (in practice) for all your classes.

Remember that the fast movement of a barbarian adds +4 to all jump checks due to increase movement.
Righteous Wrath is the 'exalted rage' feat you're thinking of. Good call on that. Seems to fit pretty well.

[Diarmuid]

This probably isnt the right thread for this, but as one of the players in my group recently discovered Knowledge Devotion and I'm going to be the one adjudicating it, I have a question.

What kind of action is using Knowledge Devotion?

[FMArthur]

The feat itself doesn't say, so you have to just go by the Knowledge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/knowledge.htm) skill description's "usually none" action type. Knowing stuff is reactive. So it's a non-action that triggers "whenever you fight a creature", which is somewhat more ambiguous. I would interpret that to be your first turn in combat, but it could just as well mean the the start of your turn or at the start of your enemies' actions against you, or at Initiative, or whenever you get into an argument. Doing it at Initiative is most convenient IMO, since none of these timings have any different effects since they all happen before your attacks.

[Diarmuid]

Unfortunately there is really no other skill check that represents anywhere near the numberical impact that Knowledge Devotio grants and personally I just cant swallow that getting up to +5 Hit/Dmg versus an unlimited number of opponents is a free action.

[subject42]

Unfortunately there is really no other skill check that represents anywhere near the numberical impact that Knowledge Devotio grants

Jump Checks with an optimized charger would be in the same ballpark.

As would swim checks, given the severity of the rules for drowning.

[Boci]

Unfortunately there is really no other skill check that represents anywhere near the numberical impact that Knowledge Devotio grants and personally I just cant swallow that getting up to +5 Hit/Dmg versus an unlimited number of opponents is a free action.

You need to spend a feat and have the neccissary ranks in the right type of knowledge. What optimizations level are you playing at?

[Fouredged Sword]

The thing is that it isn't really that powerful. By the time you are hitting the +5s you are high enough level and have placed considerable skill points in several difrent knowledges.

+5 to hit and damage straight with no clauses isn't that gamebreaking as a feat at higher levels. It is what weapon focus and specialty should be. to combine the two and make it require a check isn't unthinkable.

[FMArthur]

It's not a free action, it's a non-action altogether. There's a small difference.

Knowledge Devotion itself is nowhere near free, regardless of how you activate it. It takes a feat and heavy investment into non-combat, non-survival skills. The amount of skill investment means that a low-skills class (ie most melee) needs to put enough ability score points into Intelligence for the privilege of cutting yourself down to an utterly skill-less character with KD. Even a skillmonkey class is devastated by heavy investment in 6 tertiary skills unless it's a high-Int thing like a Factotum, and even then it's a massive expenditure that makes you unable to do all the things your class was designed to help with, like trap-searching, awareness, sneakery, and social stuff. Many of the classes that like KD also need to take the Education Feat in addition to KD to even get the right skills. So you're down 6 skills and 2 feats in most cases. Factotums do get special synergy; that's cool, they still have medium BAB and KD doesn't scale as fast as BAB. They have to be a frontliner in most combats, just so you know.

[herrhauptmann]

RAW yes, RAMS probably not.
I know what RAW and RAI are, what is RAMS?


Unfortunately there is really no other skill check that represents anywhere near the numberical impact that Knowledge Devotio grants and personally I just cant swallow that getting up to +5 Hit/Dmg versus an unlimited number of opponents is a free action.
Unlimited being a word that describes:
1)A specific group of enemies (orcs, aberrations, dragons, undead, etc)
2)In this particular encounter
And is used by a person who can make a knowledge check of 36 or higher.
The melee type classes who need the boost probably can't make the knowledge checks until they're such a high level it doesn't really matter.
The Tier 1 and 2 casters who can make that high of a knowledge check when the results will actually matter, don't need really benefit much from it. Fireball of 10d6 damage, vs 10d6+4. Or for ranged touch attacks: 1d20+dex, vs 1d20+dex+4. Given how low most touch ACs are, the wizard doesn't benefit too much.
While clerics don't get enough skill points to really use this, except in know:religion. Where they don't need the help.

To OP:
If the DM balks at the idea of you retaining your KD benefits while raging, suggest that it only works on the knowledge checks you make while in a normal frame of mind. So you make your knowledge check against the orcs, get your +X on attack and damage, and then start to rage.
The next round, a dragon rushes into the fight. You're still raging, so can't think clearly enough to try to recall anything you might know about dragons. Meaning you can't try to use KD until the rage ends, at which point, you're tired, and will REALLY need that +X.

[Boci]

I know what RAW and RAI are, what is RAMS?

Rules as Makes Sense.

[Ernir]

I agree with the "Knowledge Devotion first, Rage afterwards makes it RAW-legal" crowd.


Unfortunately there is really no other skill check that represents anywhere near the numberical impact that Knowledge Devotio grants and personally I just cant swallow that getting up to +5 Hit/Dmg versus an unlimited number of opponents is a free action.

I like to think of the Knowledge Devotion knowledge check as a "how well will I manage to apply my knowledge of this creature in the combat that is to come?" check. It's not something you're doing, it's basically a luck check. And a nonaction fits that pretty well.

[Person_Man]

If it's just a big To-Hit bonus that you're looking for, you might want to consider other methods. If you have access to Turn Undead/Knowledge Devotion then presumably you're open to spellcasting and/or wands. Just pick a good buff spell. You could also mine various X to Y (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732) bonuses. Or look into methods of getting Touch Attacks (Master Thrower, Pyrokineticist, etc). There's at least 2 or 3 Tome of Battle tricks for getting massive To-Hit. I'm also fond of the Inlindl School feat (Drow of the Underdark) which allows you to sacrifice your shield bonus to AC (which can be pumped quite high) to gain 1/2 that bonus To-Hit with any light or Weapon Finesse-able weapon.

[magic9mushroom]

Unfortunately there is really no other skill check that represents anywhere near the numberical impact that Knowledge Devotio grants and personally I just cant swallow that getting up to +5 Hit/Dmg versus an unlimited number of opponents is a free action.

Concentration checks in ToB are similarly powered, and given the amount of skill points required it's not significantly cheaper than WF/WS.


I know what RAW and RAI are, what is RAMS?


Rules as Makes Sense.

Yes, this. Since you can't make Knowledge checks, it makes sense that you wouldn't be able to benefit from previous ones either.

RAI of multi-book tricks is usually nonexistent, especially since CC is meant for divine casters.

[herrhauptmann]

RAI of multi-book tricks is usually nonexistent, especially since CC is meant for divine casters.

Which is why the devotion feats include rules for characters with and without Turn Undead right?

[magic9mushroom]

Which is why the devotion feats include rules for characters with and without Turn Undead right?

There are divine casters without Turn Undead!

The book is primarily intended for divine casters, much as Complete Arcane and Complete Mage are primarily intended for arcane casters, or Complete Adventurer and Complete Scoundrel are primarily intended for skillmonkeys. Remember that Devotions can be taken instead of Domain powers.

[maestrodesigns]

First of all, i'd like to thank you all for your feedback and insights! I'll go with "Knowledge Devotion checks made before rage will continue to provide their benefits, but as soon as you start raging you're unable to make new checks (for example when new enemies enter the fray)".

As for the discussion of Knowledge Devotion being overpowered or not; I tend to agree with the heavy investment statement. 6 maxed out skills and 2 feats are quite an investment for any melee character.