Whips and Chains

[Chaosblade]

(Please don't get excited.)

A spiked chain threatens 10'. A whip, 0'.

Chain has a reach of 10'. Whip has a reach of 15'.

Chain deals 2d4. Whip deals 1d3 NL.

Both give bonuses to Disarm and Trip, and are Weapon Finesseable.

Now, with this is in mind, I feel that whips are rather underpowered, but then again I don't make characters based around AoOs. Can someone explain why, exactly, this is?

[Malimar]

A whip is an implement of punishment/goading/torture, while a spiked chain is a weapon of war?

(Also the whip is one-handed and the spiked chain is two-handed. And bards automatically get whip proficiency; does anything automatically get spiked chain proficiency?)

[Kaeso]

(Please don't get excited.)

A spiked chain threatens 10'. A whip, 0'.

Chain has a reach of 10'. Whip has a reach of 15'.

Chain deals 2d4. Whip deals 1d3 NL.

Both give bonuses to Disarm and Trip, and are Weapon Finesseable.

Now, with this is in mind, I feel that whips are rather underpowered, but then again I don't make characters based around AoOs. Can someone explain why, exactly, this is?

If we are to believe WotC's explanation excuse, they made some of the options deliberately useless and others deliberately overpowered to reward "game mastery"..... in a role playing game :smallannoyed:.
Kind of like how the greatsword is far better than the greatclub or that a druid can break the entire game by taking the natural spell feat while a monk needs inhuman ammounts of opt-fu to even be somewhat useful.


A whip is an implement of punishment/goading/torture, while a spiked chain is a weapon of war?

(Also the whip is one-handed and the spiked chain is two-handed. And bards automatically get whip proficiency; does anything automatically get spiked chain proficiency?)

I don't think I've ever seen a historical account of a spiked chain being used on the battlefield. If a flail is already difficult to master, imagine how disastrous a spiked chain must be.

Also, the fact that the whip sucks despite needing EWP means you can't make a cool Indiana Jones/Simon Belmont inspired character.

[Yorae]

If you're looking for a more punishing whip, you might try the Spinning Sword, from Secrets of Sarlona.

[TheCountAlucard]

You also forget that with a whip, you can't damage someone wearing armor, or even just having a respectable amount of natural armor, where the same is not true of a spiked chain.


If we are to believe WotC's explanation excuse, they made some of the options deliberately useless and others deliberately overpowered to reward "game mastery"..... in a role playing game.Close, but no cigar; that was Monte Cook's "explanation."

[stack]

Well, in Pathfinder they took away the spiked chain's reach. I have a Magus build that uses a whip to trip and disarm using spell combat to cast true strike the same round, making the check an auto-pass for most enemies, baring a natural 1. Then I added serpent lash to do it to adjacent foes with the same bonus.

So even then its niche and not optimal.

[aquaticrna]

whip daggers! it's a whip! with a dagger tied to the end!

[Yorae]

whip daggers! it's a whip! with a dagger tied to the end!

That's pretty much what a Spinning Sword is. Exotic Weapon Proficiency, indeed.

[Razgriez]

On the historical factor
I've taken some time to research, and my current findings, show No Flexible/Chain weapons, that match the appearance of the "Spiked Chain" from the DnD PHB.

My best theory I have, is that the design shown, is based on real Chain/ flexible weapons, with some fantasy liberties taken to make it more exotic.

My guess is, it's somewhat based on weapons such as the Kyoketsu-shoge (currently theorized to be a precursor to the Kusarigama weapon), and the Urumi "Coiled Sword"

There were a number of chain weapons, that were known to have a blade weapon, or weighted spike at the end of the chain, but none that I know, have spikes, along it's entire length.

[Kaeso]

Close, but no cigar; that was Monte Cook's "explanation."

Isn't Monte Cook a high ranking staff member of WotC?

[Amphetryon]

Isn't Monte Cook a high ranking staff member of WotC?

Not for some time now. He played a fairly large role in 3.0's creation, though.

[Eldest]

It is his after the fact "explanation".
And I believe it is because the whip can't hurt people with above X armor bonus. As somebody said above.

[Telonius]

15 feet is a lot of reach. (3 squares away, front back left and right). If you're Large, it's a gigantic amount of reach (6 squares away). You have a really wide area available to you, to trip or disarm things while still staying out of direct melee. It's only 1h, so you can use your other hand for anything else (other weapon, shield, making rude gestures at your enemies).

It also might be very interesting for a Duskblade...

The really unfortunate thing is that the Whip doesn't threaten, so Combat Reflexes don't apply.


Isn't Monte Cook a high ranking staff member of WotC?

There's some amount of speculation that he put the "explanation" out there as a way to kind of cover his own backside, and keep him employable. 3.0 has ... numerous... critics who feel that the game was horribly balanced, and Monte was one of the people who designed it. When he left WOTC, this might have kind of tainted his future output. AFAIK, he's doing pretty well at Malhavoc Press now, so whether the explanation was real or BS it seems to have worked.

[Chaosblade]

15 feet is a lot of reach. (3 squares away, front back left and right). If you're Large, it's a gigantic amount of reach (6 squares away). You have a really wide area available to you, to trip or disarm things while still staying out of direct melee. It's only 1h, so you can use your other hand for anything else (other weapon, shield, making rude gestures at your enemies).

Like a Hand/Repeating Crossbow? Not as easy to get multiple shots out of, but it has a longer range and deals lethal damage.

I suppose what I'm getting at is, if a house rule were made to allow whips to AoO to their full range, (I might regret asking this...) what could possibly go wrong?

[Fouredged Sword]

What you need is that whip from it's hot outside. Didn't they list it as 1d33 damage?

[BillyBobJoe]

What you need is that whip from it's hot outside. Didn't they list it as 1d33 damage?

It was 1d43 for a medium one, but it doesn't have any reach at all. Surprisingly, it survived errata.

[Taelas]

Spiked chain doesn't make sense as a weapon in the first place, so its abilities don't have to be based in reality.

The whip, on the other hand, seems fairly accurate.

[NNescio]

It was 1d43 for a medium one, but it doesn't have any reach at all. Surprisingly, it survived errata.

AKA the "I let you use the printed damage dice if you can find a d43 die" weapon.

[Greenish]

Well, in Pathfinder they took away the spiked chain's reach.Yeah. PF spiked chain is still an exotic weapon, but is very nearly identical with flail, which is one-handed martial.

As if the game needed more useless exotic weapons.

[Worira]

AKA the "I let you use the printed damage dice if you can find a d43 die" weapon.

So... halfings can't use daggers?

[Greenish]

So... halfings can't use daggers?http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ee/D3wiki.JPG

Three-sided is not that hard to find.

[Salanmander]

The thing about the whip is it's really a tool, not a weapon. If you're using it to do damage, you're wrong. However, if you're using it to trip at a longer range (with another tripping weapon in your other hand for AoOs perhaps...are there any other 1h ones?), deliver duskblade spells (that's a /really/ cool idea, actually), or similar, it can be useful. It's not a good primary weapon. It does, however, give you more options in combat.

...Now I kinda want to make a whip-wielding duskblade with improved trip and whirlwind attack....Touch attacks to a) get a trip attempt and b) deliver a touch spell on anyone within 30 feet of you? sounds fun!

[Greenish]

(with another tripping weapon in your other hand for AoOs perhaps...are there any other 1h ones?)Plenty. Say, a flail. Or Kusari-Gama.

[BillyBobJoe]

AKA the "I let you use the printed damage dice if you can find a d43 die" weapon.

Yeah, I made a thread looking for one of those a while back. We found a d33, but no d43.

[Taelas]

A 6-sided die with 2 printed 1s, 2s, and 3s is also a d3.

[Worira]

And a d100 with sides 44-100 wiped off and replaced with "REROLL DAT DIE, FOO" is also a d43.

[Malimar]

And a d100 with sides 44-100 wiped off and replaced with "REROLL DAT DIE, FOO" is also a d43.

Wasteful. Repaint 44-86 as an extra set of 1-43, and 87-100 can be "REROLL DAT DIE, FOO". :smallbiggrin:

[Worira]

True, true. Actually, I suppose you could just construct an... Octacontacahexagon? and double 1-43 on that.

EDIT: OK, so apparently it's actually octacontakaihexagon. Silly Greeks.

[HalfDragonCube]

And a d100 with sides 44-100 wiped off and replaced with "REROLL DAT DIE, FOO" is also a d43.

Strangely, my DM won't allow this.


Wasteful. Repaint 44-86 as an extra set of 1-43, and 87-100 can be "REROLL DAT DIE, FOO". :smallbiggrin:

Hmm... The logic is strong in this one. My kinda logic, anyway.

[NNescio]

True, true. Actually, I suppose you could just construct an... Octacontacahexagon? and double 1-43 on that.

EDIT: OK, so apparently it's actually octacontakaihexagon. Silly Greeks.

You mean "octacontakaihexahedron".

[Worira]

herp herp I'm a derp. Right you are.

[The Glyphstone]

15 feet is a lot of reach. (3 squares away, front back left and right). If you're Large, it's a gigantic amount of reach (6 squares away). You have a really wide area available to you, to trip or disarm things while still staying out of direct melee. It's only 1h, so you can use your other hand for anything else (other weapon, shield, making rude gestures at your enemies).

It also might

Isn't one of the weird things about the whip that it just has a flat 15-ft. reach, without actually caring about your physical size?

[Salanmander]

Isn't one of the weird things about the whip that it just has a flat 15-ft. reach, without actually caring about your physical size?

It doesn't appear so. The whip entry specifies 15 feet, but every other reach weapon entry specifies 10 feet, and the general reach weapon rules say "most reach weapons double the wielder's natural reach". So it's not reasonable to conclude that whips are a constant 15 feet because that's specified in their entry.

However, I don't think we're left with any RAW as to what happens for non-{small or medium} creatures with whips. The two reasonable interpretations appear to be triple your natural reach, or double your natural reach + 5 ft.

Does anyone know of a RAW statblock that has a large or larger creature wielding a whip?

[TwylyghT]

AKA the "I let you use the printed damage dice if you can find a d43 die" weapon.


Yeah, I made a thread looking for one of those a while back. We found a d33, but no d43.


And a d100 with sides 44-100 wiped off and replaced with "REROLL DAT DIE, FOO" is also a d43.


Wasteful. Repaint 44-86 as an extra set of 1-43, and 87-100 can be "REROLL DAT DIE, FOO". :smallbiggrin:


True, true. Actually, I suppose you could just construct an... Octacontacahexagon? and double 1-43 on that.

EDIT: OK, so apparently it's actually octacontakaihexagon. Silly Greeks.

you could run it in percentile fashion with a d10/2 as a d5 primary + a d10 secondary for a d50 and reroll 44+ reducing "wasted sides" to 7.

that said, I'd really like to see that d86 lol.



It doesn't appear so. The whip entry specifies 15 feet, but every other reach weapon entry specifies 10 feet, and the general reach weapon rules say "most reach weapons double the wielder's natural reach". So it's not reasonable to conclude that whips are a constant 15 feet because that's specified in their entry.

However, I don't think we're left with any RAW as to what happens for non-{small or medium} creatures with whips. The two reasonable interpretations appear to be triple your natural reach, or double your natural reach + 5 ft.

Does anyone know of a RAW statblock that has a large or larger creature wielding a whip?

Well it's not good news, but the Balor stat block has it as a large creature with 10' natural reach and only 20' total reach with its Flaming whip. If we take that as intended then whips actually forfeit their reach advantage after leaving medium size.

Doh, Greenish snuck in and beat me while I was editing to avoid double post lol. So consider me agreeing with the below post in ninja fashion ;)

[Greenish]

Does anyone know of a RAW statblock that has a large or larger creature wielding a whip?Balors (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#balor) are famous for their flaming whips. Large, 20' reach with the whip.

[IthroZada]

Balors (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#balor) are famous for their flaming whips. Large, 20' reach with the whip.

I don't think that counts. Their whips are somehow shorter than normal whips. I guess because they are on fire.

[Telonius]

I don't think that counts. Their whips are somehow shorter than normal whips. I guess because they are on fire.

They're also a special attack for the Balor - Entangle as though from a net.

It does seem a little unclear though. Either it's "Whips are special and give you 10 more feet than you'd normally have given your size," or "Whips aren't special, use the same doubling rule you would if it were any other reach weapon."

The specific Whip entry makes an exception for the usual "doubles natural reach" rule under "Reach Weapons," but doesn't mention what happens when the creature is Large. So the text seems a bit ambiguous about "aren't special," The table/special Balor thing seems to support "are special."

FWIW, Curmudgeon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184173&page=30) ruled that the Whip gives you 15 feet reach, period, regardless of natural reach. (Personally I think this ruling doesn't make much sense, given what it would mean for a Gargantuan or larger creature wielding an appropriately-sized whip... such a whip would give you less reach than you'd normally have with a non-reach weapon).

[faceroll]

15 feet is a lot of reach. (3 squares away, front back left and right). If you're Large, it's a gigantic amount of reach (6 squares away). You have a really wide area available to you, to trip or disarm things while still staying out of direct melee. It's only 1h, so you can use your other hand for anything else (other weapon, shield, making rude gestures at your enemies).

It also might be very interesting for a Duskblade...

The really unfortunate thing is that the Whip doesn't threaten, so Combat Reflexes don't apply.



There's some amount of speculation that he put the "explanation" out there as a way to kind of cover his own backside, and keep him employable. 3.0 has ... numerous... critics who feel that the game was horribly balanced, and Monte was one of the people who designed it. When he left WOTC, this might have kind of tainted his future output. AFAIK, he's doing pretty well at Malhavoc Press now, so whether the explanation was real or BS it seems to have worked.

I have some of his Malhavoc stuff. It's just as bad as the 3.0 stuff. Monte's an old school gamer. It's very clear in 3.0 and his Malhavoc stuff that he just can't give up the gygaxiasm. Not that that's a bad thing; it's what makes 3.x so much cooler (imo) than the tame, gamist 4.0.

[panaikhan]

There was a 3.0 PrC called 'Lasher' that gave a whip 'threat' over it's reach.
Don't know if it ever got converted.
I did build one once, dual-wielding whip-daggers.

[Amphetryon]

There was a 3.0 PrC called 'Lasher' that gave a whip 'threat' over it's reach.
Don't know if it ever got converted.
I did build one once, dual-wielding whip-daggers.

AFAIK, Lasher got folded into the Exotic Weapon Master, along with Master of Chains and all the other 3.0 PrCs that emphasized a specific EWP.

[TwylyghT]

AFAIK, Lasher got folded into the Exotic Weapon Master, along with Master of Chains and all the other 3.0 PrCs that emphasized a specific EWP.

Got to love the "Hey lets take all these specialist weapon classes and make them a single class that can't do any of the cool stuff the originals did" strategy.