Hybrids

[Howler Dagger]

I have heard of them on these forums alot, but i have no clue what sourcebook/dragon article they are in. Could someone show/tell me where the rules for making hybrids are?

[tcrudisi]

Players Handbook 3, page 134.

[Sorcerer Blob]

Hybrids are awesome when done correctly. And that's where this word of caution comes in:

Hybrids can never fully be optimal in the two roles they are covering. They can do a decent enough job in both when built correctly, though.

It's very, very hard to build a bad 4e character (even harder with Essentials) but very, very easy to build a bad Hybrid character.

Make sure there is at least one stat synergy and try to keep a balanced ability score array/point buy and for the most part you'll be just fine!

I would also caution against a same role-same role Hybrid (example: Striker/Striker Hybrid) as they end up mostly falling into the bad-Hybrid camp.

Overall: Experiment a little with builds and you'll eventually find something that works and works well. Some examples of this are: Vampire-Cleric, Sorcerer-Barbarian (it is a Striker-Striker but works quite well), Fighter-Rogue (but be careful here), and Wizard-Rogue. Experiment for awhile and I'm sure you'll find even better builds than the ones I listed (which are admittedly not the best, but I am proud of my Vamp-Cleric and Sorc-Barb!)

[Blazen]

Hybrids lack the overall strength of a single class, but gain versatility. If you know what you're doing, then hybrids are incredibly fun. The down side is that hybrids tend to look very appealing and rush into them. With that said here are some tips:

1. Swordmages make one of the better classes for hybrid because they keep the full power of their aegis, and tend to have decent stat synergies.

2. Make sure that you can use their attacks without much trouble. For instance Ranger/Avenger isn't a good combination because one uses melee weapons while the other uses ranged. Meanwhile monks pair up well with melee classes because they use all the weapons they have proficiency with as implements.

3. Plan it out a bit. With hybrids you have a lot more feats and powers to consider. Make sure you study them to find the best ones for your concept.

[Sorcerer Blob]

Hybrids lack the overall strength of a single class, but gain versatility. If you know what you're doing, then hybrids are incredibly fun. The down side is that hybrids tend to look very appealing and rush into them. With that said here are some tips:

Fantastic point, another way to word it is that you'll never be a master Controller or Leader, but you will be pretty good at both.


2. Make sure that you can use their attacks without much trouble. For instance Ranger/Avenger isn't a good combination because one uses melee weapons while the other uses ranged.

Unless of course that's the type of versatility you are going for, thought I agree that this might pose some issues down the road.

[Blazen]

Unless of course that's the type of versatility you are going for, thought I agree that this might pose some issues down the road.

It presents 2 major issues. The first is weapon swapping in battle. You could take the Ranger feat that allows you to do it quickly, but you now waste a class feature, and a feat to do it. The other problem is feat distribution.

[Corvus]

There are some classes (like warden) which loose too much when you hybrid, but there are also some classes that synergise so well that any losses are more than compensated.

CHA based Paladin|Warlock hybrids are a very popular option.

[Blazen]

I think the main reason for that is because it gives Paladins a Cha based MBA, while also helping create cath-22s that occur when you combine Defenders with evasive classes.

[MeeposFire]

There are some classes (like warden) which loose too much when you hybrid, but there are also some classes that synergise so well that any losses are more than compensated.

CHA based Paladin|Warlock hybrids are a very popular option.

You can do well with a warden. For instance you can create a nasty catch 22 using a warden mark and rogue utilizing riposte strike. Attack me take an attack, attack an ally I attack you. Good times.

[Tegu8788]

Could I, as a very, very green noob, ask someone to explain a bit more what the difference between hybridizing and multiclassing is? I know hybrid is much more in-depth, and that Bards can use several classes for it's multiclass feats. Do class features come with a hybrid and multiclass, or just some? If a little light could be shined here for someone without access to the PHBs, that would be much appreciated.

[RebelRogue]

Could I, as a very, very green noob, ask someone to explain a bit more what the difference between hybridizing and multiclassing is? I know hybrid is much more in-depth, and that Bards can use several classes for it's multiclass feats. Do class features come with a hybrid and multiclass, or just some? If a little light could be shined here for someone without access to the PHBs, that would be much appreciated.
A multiclass character picks one main class and then dabbles in another (not necessarily at level 1). He or she is still primarily a member of the original class: when new powers are gained, these will be from this class (unless more feats are spent).

A hybrid character picks two classes at level 1. He or she gains some limited benefits from both but may choose from both classes when powers are picked. However, class features can generally only be used when using powers from the related class.

A hybrid character may also be a multiclass one, BTW. So you have two classes for the hybrid and dabble in a third.

[Tegu8788]

So, if I were to hybrid a Defender/Striker and multiclass a Defender, would I be able to function well as a defender with good damage potential, maybe some Controller given Defender tendencies. Not looking for optimized build, nor would this be my first. I new, don't even have the books, wouldn't dream of touching a hybrid until my third or fourth character. I plan on playing, and doing a lot of reading, before I make a hybrid. Would that plan work?

[Blazen]

Erm, that's a bit difficult to judge. It would depend on what you want to do, and what class would fall in each slot.

[Sir Homeslice]

There are some classes (like warden) which loose too much when you hybrid, but there are also some classes that synergise so well that any losses are more than compensated.

CHA based Paladin|Warlock hybrids are a very popular option.

Wardens lose very little when hybriding.

[NecroRebel]

Strikers tend not to hybridize well; the class features they have that deal additional damage apply only to the powers from that class, so if you were a hybrid with the Ranger class as on side, for example, you'd only get your Hunter's Quarry damage bonus when you hit with a Ranger power. This basically means that they end up basically needing to switch between being a Striker and whatever their other side is from turn to turn.

Defenders are more capable hybrids, however. For the most part, their marking feature isn't much weakened, e.g. the Swordmage's can't swap marks unless their old mark is ended somehow, but is otherwise unchanged. The Paladin's deals less damage, but is otherwise the same (with errata; without it's nerfed heavily).

Basically, a Striker|Defender hybrid would be a mostly-normal Defender, except trading the various not-really-defender features (like the Fighter's OA boosts, the Paladin's Leader secondary, etc.) for bonus damage on some rounds. It would be quite doable, but like most hybrid combinations would require some shenanigans to make it as strong as a decently-optimized single-class Defender, and probably wouldn't be able to match a single-class Striker's average damage per round.

[Katana_Geldar]

With a hybrid, it's not a good idea to go for different power sources as they make your character a little MAD. This can be overcome with feats though, and a half-elf hybrid makes a really good beginning in anything.

[MeeposFire]

Hybriding strikers together is tough but doable. For instance rogues and rangers have many off turn powers which allow you to get both striker mechanics in the same round. However that is more work than you really need to make a decent striker.

[Corvus]

Wardens lose very little when hybriding.

Hybrid wardens loose;

Font of Life.
Reduced marking to only one adjacent enemy instead of all.
Guardian Might - which means no secondary stat to AC, and no second wind benefits.
The HPs of a full warden.

[MeeposFire]

Hybrid wardens loose;

Font of Life.
Reduced marking to only one adjacent enemy instead of all.
Guardian Might - which means no secondary stat to AC, and no second wind benefits.
The HPs of a full warden.

The reduced marking is not that big of a deal especially since wardens can't punish more than one enemy per round anyway.

Guardian might is also not needed since you could be picking a class that uses dex or int as a secondary or you can use your hybrid talent to pick up heavy armor or a class feature that gives another stat to AC. Also not a big deal.

HP is also not a big deal unless having the absolute highest HP matters to you. Remember you are playing a hybrid having lower HP is a standard part of the deal form many combos and HP still can be enough anyway.

Only one that is worth a lot is font of life which you can pick up via hybrid talent if you feel the need.


Like so many things it is what you are comboing together such as my catch 22 warden|rogue.

[Blackfang108]

2. Make sure that you can use their attacks without much trouble. For instance Ranger/Avenger isn't a good combination because one uses melee weapons while the other uses ranged.

STR- Ranger says hi. And uses melee weapons.

[tenshiakodo]

Leader/Leader hybrids do have an unusual advantage in that they can use both of their minor action heals in the same turn (well, as long as you aren't playing a Cleric/Sentinel, that is). Unfortunately, unless you're playing something like a Cleric/Warlord with Gambler's Word and Fight On, this advantage will fade somewhat in Paragon Tier, as hybrid Leaders don't get additional uses of their minor heal (boo, hiss).

That having been said, Leader classes that are good at healing get more of their healing from Powers at higher levels, so it's probably still quite doable. From personal experience, the Artificer and Bard classes are good hybrid options individually.

Hybrid Warlords can be quite strong, but their Action Point ability does annoyingly become 1/encounter. Potentially the new Strength Cleric will hybrid quite well, if they retain the option to switch out Healer's Lore to automatically become proficient in Scale (and net a +2 shield bonus to AC).

Building a hybrid, as previously mentioned, is a bit complex, and takes some thought. Some hybrids don't really get a lot of use out of their secondary stats, so it does become quite possible to hybrid two disparate classes with a 16/16 spread. Striker/Striker builds do tend to lose out, as most Striker mechanics only apply to the powers of their individual class. I've seen a few exceptions, however, such as the Monk, and one can build a hybrid Ranger/Rogue who loads up on minor action attacks, allowing them to apply both Quarry and Sneak Attack damage in the same turn.

I, for one, will be highly amused the day I can create a hybrid Hexblade/Sorcerer. Darn, I can only apply my Dex mod as a bonus to Sorcerer and Warlock powers... ^_^

[Sir Homeslice]

Hybrid wardens loose;

Font of Life.
Reduced marking to only one adjacent enemy instead of all.
Guardian Might - which means no secondary stat to AC, and no second wind benefits.
The HPs of a full warden.

Again, Hybrid Wardens lose very little when hybriding.

Font of Life? Big flipping whoop. Its loss isn't that crucial and in fact barely hurts. Easily skippable.

Reduced marking? Don't kid me. It's still a free action vanilla mark to any adjacent enemy. IME, you don't get to mark a whole ton of enemies anyways, so only one is fine enough.

Guardian Might is actually the only valid complaint on that list, since taking it back does take up a feat slot. However, it's semi-easily taken care of if you have a grasp of how to work hybrids.

And practically every hybrid loses some HP.

Hybrid Warden is one of the better hybrid options.

[Fox Box Socks]

Hybrid Wardens are crazy good.

It's worth pointing out that Hybriding is less like 3.5 multiclassing and more like a more balanced version of gestalt.

[Blazen]

STR- Ranger says hi. And uses melee weapons.

You still run into quite a few problems with that.

1. Rangers dual wield while Avengers use a single weapon (usually a full blade).

2. Going Ranger/Avenger is still a bad choice because you can only use HQ with Ranger attacks, and OoE with Avenger ones. You can't use either with MBAs.

3. You still have to worry about the feat tax. Granted this is slightly alleviated by the fact that both classes would use heavy blades.

[MeeposFire]

You still run into quite a few problems with that.

1. Rangers dual wield while Avengers use a single weapon (usually a full blade).

2. Going Ranger/Avenger is still a bad choice because you can only use HQ with Ranger attacks, and OoE with Avenger ones. You can't use either with MBAs.

3. You still have to worry about the feat tax. Granted this is slightly alleviated by the fact that both classes would use heavy blades.

Actually many avengers use two weapons due to two weapon opening and their ability to get more crits. However a ranger|avenger is not as good as a single class of those with access to the others powers. For instance avengers who obtain twin strike do very well but they want it to work with OoE.

Also you missed the glaring problem of str based powers which is you are str/wis with terrible AC or your attacks suffer. Dex based melee attacks exist but they are far more rare.

[Blackfang108]

You still run into quite a few problems with that.

1. Rangers dual wield while Avengers use a single weapon (usually a full blade).

2. Going Ranger/Avenger is still a bad choice because you can only use HQ with Ranger attacks, and OoE with Avenger ones. You can't use either with MBAs.

3. You still have to worry about the feat tax. Granted this is slightly alleviated by the fact that both classes would use heavy blades.

1.) Conditionally true (Straight Beastmaster usually uses 2H Weapons). Doesn't obviate to my point.
2.) True. Doesn't obviate my point.
3.) Doesn't obviate my point.

[Blazen]

Actually many avengers use two weapons due to two weapon opening and their ability to get more crits. However a ranger|avenger is not as good as a single class of those with access to the others powers. For instance avengers who obtain twin strike do very well but they want it to work with OoE.

Also you missed the glaring problem of str based powers which is you are str/wis with terrible AC or your attacks suffer. Dex based melee attacks exist but they are far more rare.

True. I forgot about that part. Though it could be alleviated somewhat with feats it's just not worth it.


1.) Conditionally true (Straight Beastmaster usually uses 2H Weapons). Doesn't obviate to my point.
2.) True. Doesn't obviate my point.
3.) Doesn't obviate my point.

What is your point? All you said is that there are Str Rangers, and they go melee. They still aren't a very good hybrid choice with Avengers. Some decent choices for rangers would be Fighters, Barbarians, and Seekers (Dex).

[MeeposFire]

True. I forgot about that part. Though it could be alleviated somewhat with feats it's just not worth it.



What is your point? All you said is that there are Str Rangers, and they go melee. They still aren't a very good hybrid choice with Avengers. Some decent choices for rangers would be Fighters, Barbarians, and Seekers (Dex).

Rogue is also a good choice as both monks and rangers have minor action attacks so you can get both types of striker mechanics in the same round. The nova power is way up their though you do sacrifice in other areas.

Twin strike and use a rogue minor action attack (like tumbling strike) or riposte strike (which can let you SA twice in a round) and use a minor action ranger power (off hand strike). You can even have both on the same build.

[huttj509]

Heh, this thread is evidence that it's definitely possible to screw up hybrids...


And that no 2 people will agree on which ones are screwed up...

:-)

[Foeofthelance]

Hybrids can be fun. I'm currently running a Dragonborn Paladin/Sorcerer based around Strength/Charisma. It relies less on the typical Sorcerer blast powers and more on the "You hit me, you fry," powers, such as Burning Spray, Lightning Breath, Dragon Flame Mantle, and Flame Spiral while using my Draconic Challenge feat to mark enemies with Divine Sanction using my breath weapon.

Leaves the bad guys with three real options:

1) Take a swing at me and miss
2) Take a swing at me and hit, taking damage as a result from 2-3 different spells.
3) Ignoring me completely and taking a -2 to their attacks and damage from Divine Sanction.

The only two real downsides (aside from aggroing the entire battlefield) is that it relies on strong battlefield position and control from my allies (to hold the baddies in the area of effect) and that it doesn't trigger on ranged or AoE attackers. Though in their case, I can just close and attack with some of the paladin powers...

[Blackfang108]

What is your point? All you said is that there are Str Rangers, and they go melee. They still aren't a very good hybrid choice with Avengers. Some decent choices for rangers would be Fighters, Barbarians, and Seekers (Dex).

My point was that your post saying that Avengers and Rangers dont mix because one is Melee and one is Ranged is WRONG.

nothing you ever say will obviate the point I made.

[Blazen]

Except it wasn't. Maybe I should have specified, but in that case I was talking about Wis/Dex builds, since a lot of people would fall into that trap just by seeing stat, and role synergy. Also, please, keep using the term obviate. I remember when I got a word a day calendar.

[Blackfang108]

Except it wasn't. Maybe I should have specified, but in that case I was talking about Wis/Dex builds, since a lot of people would fall into that trap just by seeing stat, and role synergy. Also, please, keep using the term obviate. I remember when I got a word a day calendar.

See, you didn't mention specific stats, only fighting types.

Ergo, my point stands.

[Fox Box Socks]

There aren't a lot of good melee options, but Avenger Hybrids Gish fairly well.

Aventer/Clerics, Avenger/Invokers and Avenger/Shamans can all pick up Hybrid Talent for +3 AC at level 1, then MC Swordmage at level 2 so they don't need a weapon and an implement.