Dragon Disciple Help 3.P

[Stormageddon]

So I'm starting a new campaign Saturday and I have decided to build a Dragon Disciple. Starting at level 1.

Hey is what I have so far

Half Orc Paladin 1

Str: 18
Dex: 12
Con: 18
Int: 14
Wis: 8
Cha: 20 with the +2 racial

DM home brew buy point system. No stat higher than 18. No stat lower than 8.

I figure the build will go something like this Paladin 3 / Sorcerer 1 / Dragon Disciple 10 / ? X

Feats

1: Toughness
3: ??? Power Attack maybe or is worth waiting for a bloodline feat to pick this up?
5: Extra Smite
7 and beyond ???

Not sure what energy type I should take the dragon bloodline.

What should I cap this build of with? More sorcerer? A PrC?

Any suggestions on the Build?

[Diarmuid]

Most people are going to agree that Toughness is a pretty useless feat.

After that, people are going to recommend going with a Crusader over a paladin, or if you're dead set on going Paladin, that you go into the uber charger route.

I'm curious which Half-Orc race gets a +2 modifier to Charisma.

[Gnaeus]

After that, people are going to recommend going with a Crusader over a paladin, or if you're dead set on going Paladin, that you go into the uber charger route.

PF paladin is generally better


I'm curious which Half-Orc race gets a +2 modifier to Charisma.

The PF half orc can choose which stat gets the bonus.



I figure the build will go something like this Paladin 3 / Sorcerer 1 / Dragon Disciple 10 / ? X

Feats

1: Toughness
3: ??? Power Attack maybe or is worth waiting for a bloodline feat to pick this up?


Build isn't legal. DD needs Know Arcana 5, so Paladin 4/Sorc 1, or Paladin 3/Sorc 2.

I would take Power Attack with a bloodline feat. Also Blind-Fighting (which is very handy when coupled with your blindsense) and either Toughness (removing the need to take at level 1) or Improved Init.

At level 15 the best options are more paladin or more sorcerer.

Consider taking Dodge at some point and Oslyuth Guile (Chelliax book). I found it rather helpful to add my charisma to my AC, on a character which already had a sizable natural armor bonus.

The question you need to answer for yourself is: when do you take off your armor. At low levels, you will want true strike (no ASF) Benign Transposition (No ASF), and pre-combat buffs like shield or enlarge. For second level spells, Blindness is a good attack option with no ASF, Blur (no ASF), and False Life and Resist Energy (long duration) are good for tanking. Personally, I would keep my plate mail until I got 3rd level spells (at ECL 11-12). (Conveniently, that is about when you start turning into a dragon anyway.)

[Diarmuid]

Damn you 3.P!

[Curious]

Actually, Toughness adds a hit point for every hit die as well, so it's an okay choice too. Finish off the build with levels of sorceror, I would say, and use fractional BAB to get +14.

[tyckspoon]

Most people are going to agree that Toughness is a pretty useless feat.

After that, people are going to recommend going with a Crusader over a paladin, or if you're dead set on going Paladin, that you go into the uber charger route.

I'm curious which Half-Orc race gets a +2 modifier to Charisma.

Pathfinder Half-Orc, which has the same pick-a-stat bonus that Pathfinder humans do because they couldn't think of a way to make a Half-Orc actually interesting. Which means that Paladin is a better class than you're thinking of, and Crusader is possibly/probably not an option.

Re: where to go from there:
Pathfinder is not big on prestige classes, which means you're basically looking at- finish up Paladin, finish up Sorcerer, or take Eldritch Knight. Something that increases caster level is going to be more powerful than otherwise, and you're basically building a gish so my pick would be Eldritch Knight.

[Stormageddon]

Wow! Thanks for all the replies everybody! What about the energy type for the dragon bloodline? I know fire is generally considered to be bad because lots of monsters are immune to it.

[Curious]

Wow! Thanks for all the replies everybody! What about the energy type for the dragon bloodline? I know fire is generally considered to be bad because lots of monsters are immune to it.

There you have it. Anything with a cone that isn't fire is probably solid.

[Sarone]

It's doable, but you're also looking at some issues with trying to get your character up snuff in regards to someone who plays a Dragon blooded Sorceror then dips into the DD PrC.

However, it does make for an interesting character.

[Paul H]

Hi

Some other suggestions for feats:

1) Gtr Mercy. (Ult Mag) If you have mercy feature, but don't use it whilst using lay on Hands, you heal extra D6.

2) Ultimate Mercy (UM) Spend 10 Lay on Hands for Raise Dead.

3) Word of Healing (UM) Lay on Hands at distance.

4) Extra Channelling. (Core). 2 extra uses Channel Energy [Channel NRG normally takes 2 Lay on Hands).

5) Arcane Strike. (Core). Add damage to weapon damage. Weapons also count as magical. (CL based)

Thanks
Paul H

[ericgrau]

Normally I'd still say fire or maybe electricity since fire spells tend to be better, but in your case you're more worried about elemental buffs. Draconic reservoir is awesome there to add a d6 to your attacks. Sonic or acid are the least likely to be resisted, and of the two the spell only allows acid, so acid it is. If you have a fireballing party member OTOH then pick fire to do double duty as both protection and damage.

[ericgrau]

Wow! Thanks for all the replies everybody! What about the energy type for the dragon bloodline? I know fire is generally considered to be bad because lots of monsters are immune to it.
More than other types, but not too many. Normally I'd still say fire or maybe electricity since fire spells tend to be better, but in your case you're more worried about elemental buffs. Draconic reservoir is awesome there to add a d6 to your attacks. Sonic or acid are the least likely to be resisted, and of the two the spell only allows acid, so acid it is. Grab the acid splash cantrip to charge up the reservoir ahead of time, before you put your armor on. If you have a fireballing party member OTOH then pick fire to do double duty as both protection and damage.

Level 4 or 7 is a good stopping point in dragon disciple, especially with the Pathfinder add-ons. Though in pathfinder the feat makes 8 ok too. 5 not so much, b/c you don't get BAB. If you want to continue as a gish then stop at DD 8 unless you really need all day wings and select lots of morning buffs to cast before you put your armor on and no-somatic spells for your pre-combat buff(s) if you get a buffing round. Then I'd continue in eldritch knight to keep both your BAB and casting. That's a lot better than sorcerer levels.

These spells have no somatic components:

0 Flare
0 Light
0 Sotto Voce, X
1 Feather Fall
1 Hold Portal
1 True Strike
1 Ventriloquism
1 Liberating Comand, X
1 Chastise, X
1 Flare Burst, 10' radius flare
2 Blindness-Deafness
2 Blur
2 Darkness
2 Knock
3 Displacement
3 Suggestion
3 Tongues
3 Vision of Hell, X
3 Dweomer Retaliation, X
3 Lover's Vengeance, X
4 Dimension Door
4 Geas, Lesser
4 Shout
4 Emergency Force Sphere, X
5 Contact Other Plane
5 Teleport
5 Planar Adaptation, Resist harmful effects of other plane.
6 Geas/Quest
6 Suggestion, Mass
7 Phase Door
7 Power Word Blind
7 Teleport, Greater
7 Teleport Object
8 Charm Monster, Mass
8 Irresistible Dance
8 Power Word Stun
9 Mage's Disjunction
9 Power Word Kill
9 Prismatic Sphere
9 Teleportation Circle
9 Time Stop
9 Wail of the Banshee
9 Fiery Body, You gain various fire-related powers. (many effects)
9 Interplanetary Teleport, X



As a melee character I'd put str over cha, even on a paladin/sorcerer. +1 to hit and damage is better than +1 to saves and a 1st level spell.

[Paul H]

Hi

Disagree with previous post.

Cha not only does skills, extra Paladin/Sorceror spells, increase DC of said spells, extra saves, but also grants extra Sorceror Bloodline abilities, plus extra Lay on Hands/Channel Energy, bonus to hit using Smite Evil, etc.

Thanks
Paul H

[ericgrau]

Spell save DC won't matter much at paladin 3. Not for most sorcerer spells he can cast in armor either, especially since he'll want to cast buffs instead at the reduced spell level. I listed the bonus to saves and attack bonus since those are the only two things that make much difference.

Extra ability uses are minor and str also makes his smites more likely to hit, b/c it makes everything more likely to hit. They're all drops in the bucket, not a build focus. Save DC isn't critical on his bloodline breath weapon, which isn't even at full level anyway. Get some cha, maybe even put it 2nd, but not before str.

[Gnaeus]

Well, you can also get cha to AC, but not until level 9, when a +1 isn't a huge difference.

It may also depend on whether you wind up as the party face, making bluff and diplomacy rolls.

[ericgrau]

Every use so far is a minor use though and makes it rather wasteful as a primary ability score. Like I said put cha 2nd at best, if that. You can still use all of those abilities. He has a high point buy for 3 18s, so he can afford to have an 18 cha, I'd just put the +2 into str and any future stat boosts into str.

How do you get cha to AC?

There are a lot of good melee feats but some from a recent build:

Weapon focus: +1 => as much or later more damage per round than power attack. At level 4 PA is a little better and goes downhill from there. Once you get a magic weapon, draconic reservoir, etc. you really want your attack bonus more than anything. At high levels I'd only PA with single attacks and furious focus.
Vital Strike & co: Great to keep the damage up on your single attacks.
Combat Reflexes, Standstill: If you're the front liner.
Weapon specialization: Eldritch knight will let you qualify for it, and without the painful attack bonus penalty it'll do more than power attack.
At 8 BAB pathfinder opens up a lot of minor and major combat feat trees to choose from. The crit line is pretty impressive. You might want to wield a falchion or scythe.

[Gnaeus]

Every use so far is a minor use though and makes it rather wasteful as a primary ability score. Like I said put cha 2nd at best, if that. You can still use all of those abilities. He has a high point buy for 3 18s, so he can afford to have an 18 cha, I'd just put the +2 into str and any future stat boosts into str.

How do you get cha to AC?



Consider taking Dodge at some point and Oslyuth Guile (Chelliax book). I found it rather helpful to add my charisma to my AC, on a character which already had a sizable natural armor bonus.

It has some limitations, but worth it in my opinion for tanking big monsters. By the time you get AC 10 (base) +1 (dex) +4(natural) +9 (armor) +4 (Shield spell) +1 (dodge prereq) +2 (fighting defensively) +6 (charisma)=37 before any magic items.

[ericgrau]

Ah that's really helpful. Well for magic items he should probably get both str and cha almost equally. Since that's 8 levels away I'd still start with str though.

Since he already has dodge and toughness at that point, stalwart defender is a good 1 level dip for another +1 AC, +1 fort, +1 will. He doesn't need to use the stance, and can end it early if needed, but it'll be nice to have when he gets a hallway or some such. The dip costs endurance but then he can get pathfinder diehard, which is really nice. Almost like an extra 20-24 hitpoints.

[Paul H]

Hi

Smite Evil adds your Cha mod as Deflection bonus to AC vs your 'target'.

Remember, Smite Evil is much more powerful in PF.

And don't forget, if you stick to medium armour, you can still cast spells without ASF. But it does cost 2 feats (Arcane Armour Training & Mastery). Then again, you gain 4 extra feats by going DD. (Including Toughness & pwr Attack).

Ignoring ASF is a swift action, so is prob better self-buffs.

And I wouldn't say Lay on Hands & Channel Energy are only 'minor' bonuses.

Thanks
Paul H
Edit: And don't forget Form of Dragon ability. Smite Evil with 6 attacks/rnd? Plus increased mobility, Str, Con, Nat Armour?

[ericgrau]

I'd still like to be better at melee than a little more defensive a small portion of the time against something that might already be dead. Also, paladin 3, not paladin 20. It's an extra use per day of lay on hands, 3.5 hit points, and a pitiful channel energy. All the benefits are crazy-minor & rare vs. something you actually use on all your attacks. You could pile on an extra cantrip per cha mod, a +1 to the save DC to 57 different special abilities that don't have full progression so you probably shouldn't use them anyway, etc. and it still wouldn't make a bit of difference.

On a paladin 20 I might put it first for the swift self-targetting lay on hands, heck that's better than con from that ability alone. At least until you get more uses per day than you can use. On a paladin 3, and likewise weak in everything else that uses cha, it's just silly.

[Paul H]

Hi

So you suggesting Pal 3/Sorc 2/DD xxxx ? (Remember min prereqs, so min lvl 5).

I've no prob with taking extra lvl sorceror for spell casting ability.

Not sure if there's anything interesting in new combat book to use channel energy with. (There's a few situational ones in core book against Undead, etc).

And still, don't forget Form of Dragon II ! :)

Thanks
Paul H
Perhaps Holy Warrior, subform of Cleric from Campaign Setting Chronicles (Pg 43) is more what you need:

Holy Warrior (Ex): A cleric with this ability is proficient with
her deity’s favored weapon. In addition, her base attack
bonus as a cleric equals her cleric level, and her cleric Hit Die
becomes a d10.
Class Abilities: Some clerics think of themselves more
as holy warriors than proselytizers or shepherds. For these
clerics, the ability to fight trumps all
other concerns. Taking the above ability
requires a cleric to give up both of
her domains, including her
domain powers

[Blisstake]

Actually, I would take fire energy. A lot of enemies will be immune to it, but if you're relying on the breath weapon to deal damage, you're doing it wrong (Your melee attacks should reliably be dealing more damage). Fire immunity for you does become rather helpful however, moreso than electricity or acid in my experiences.

For feats...

It depends what level you're starting at. Take Power Attack as a bloodline feat if you're starting at a higher level, but take it early on otherwise. It's a great bonus to your damage, and you don't want to be slowed down early on because you want to be slightly more efficient with feats later. If you don't have access to many ways to increase your hit chance, you may want to look at weapon focus or furious assault to boost your hit chance. Improved critical is a must if you're using a falchion (oh, by the way, use a falchion)

Greater mercy is pretty good if you don't need your swift actions for anything else (however, if you only have 3 levels in paladin, I'd skip it). Extra smite is a good one, especially if you only have a few levels in paladin (thankfully, only the damage bonus from smite scales with paladin level. You want to be able to bypass DR and get your charisma to hit as often as possible. The extra AC isn't bad either).

Don't take word of healing, because you should only be using lay on hands on other people if there's no one you're able to attack, which shouldn't come up too often. Also, avoid the extra mercy feat.

Also, I would recommend human over half-orc. You still get the bonus to a single stat, and none of the Half-Orc bonuses are really that great for this build. Of course, half-orc isn't a horrible option, and if you're picking that for fluff, than go with it! (I have a soft spot for half-orcs)

[ericgrau]

Oh form of the dragon not only gets an extra use, it goes to II.

Okay then try paladin 3 4 / sorc 1 / dragon disciple 10 /eldritch knight 5. Alternatively take DD to 4 and eldritch knight to 10 or, if you don't mind stopping your caster progression, grab anything else good for melee.

[Paul H]

Hi

Once again - you need FIVE levels to get 5 ranks Know Arcana!!!!!

So Pal 4/Sorc 1/DD xxx works, as does Pal 3/Sorc 2/DD xxx.

Remember, Smite Evil also ignores all DR of 'victim', Lay on Hands gets Mercies from Pal 3.

Depends if you really want that 2nd Smite Evil or not.

Thanks
Paul H
PS Have you looked at the Paladin Archetypes? (APG Pg's 116 onwards)

Edit:
Paladin Archetypes

Divine Defender
Shared Defense (Su): At 3rd level, a divine defender can
spend one use of her lay on hands ability as a standard
action to grant all adjacent allies (including paladins) a
bonus. At 3rd level, adjacent allies receive a +1 sacred bonus
to their AC and CMD and on their saving throws. These
bonuses last for a number of rounds equal to the divine
defender’s Charisma modifier.

Sacred Servant

Smite Evil (Su): This functions as the paladin ability, but
the sacred servant can smite evil one additional time per day
at 7th level, and every six levels thereafter (instead of 4th level
and every three levels thereafter). This replaces smite evil.
Spells: At 4th level, when a sacred servant gains the ability
to cast spells, she also chooses one domain associated with
her deity. Her effective cleric level for this domain is equal
to her paladin level –3. In addition, she also gains one
domain spell slot for each level of paladin spells she can
cast. Every day she must prepare the domain spell from
her chosen domain in that spell slot.

Undead Scourge

Smite Evil (Su): This functions as the paladin ability
of the same name, but the undead scourge does not
deal 2 points of damage per level on the f irst successful
attack against evil dragons and evil outsiders. She does
deal 2 points of damage per level on all smite attacks
made against evil undead creatures.

Warrior of the Holy Light

Power of Faith (Su): At 4th level, a warrior of the holy
light learns to use the power of her faith to bolster her
defenses and aid her allies. This class feature replaces the
paladin’s spells class feature. A warrior of the holy light
does not gain any spells or spellcasting abilities, does not
have a caster level, and cannot use spell trigger or spell
completion magic items.
At 4th level, the warrior of the holy light gains one
additional use of her lay on hands ability per day. She gains
one additional use of lay on hands per day for every four
levels she attains beyond 4th. She can call upon the power
of her faith as a standard action. This causes a nimbus of
light to emanate from the warrior of the holy light in a
30-foot radius. All allies in this area (including the warrior
of the holy light) receive a +1 morale bonus to AC and on
attack rolls, damage rolls, and saving throws against fear
as long as they remain in the area of light. This power lasts
for 1 minute.

Sorry for the long edit, but I thought they might help.
Paul H