Red Hand of Doom Help

[Black_Balor]

Hi, my group and I are going to be playing Red Hand of Doom soon, and I was wondering what a good party would be. We haven't rolled up characters yet, but my DM doesn't like magic users like Wizard, Druid and the sort. Any help would be appreciated.



Black Balor

[Diarmuid]

Are you looking for people who've played the module to tell you what classes have abilities that will best suit the module?

Are you looking for people to build your characters for you?

If the answer to either of those is yes, well heck than I really dont know how to help you.

I would imagine you're going to get a lot of questions asking about book/class restrictions, level, rolling method, etc.

Really your post is lacking in information so you're not likely to get a whole lot of help.

[Black_Balor]

I guess you're right that I didn't post much information. :smalltongue:

We are starting at level 5, we are using 30 or 32 point buy, I forget which, we are allowed any book as long as it isn't 3rd party, we have a group of 4 and I am looking for suggested classes for this module because I have read that it is very deadly at times. The DM also mentioned something about no tear 1 or 2, or something like that, said they were broken. I hope this was enough information.



Black Balor

[Dusk Eclipse]

Tier 1 and 2... which are almost all spellcasting classes in the game.


Well depending on what kind of character you want to play, there are a LOT of decently powerful classes that you can use.

For skill monkey-ness, nothing beats a Factotum (Dungeonscape), with this class you can almost literally "I can do everything you do and chances are I can do it better". Really versatile and it packs enough punch to get a place in any party

first line melee: Crusader or Warblade (Tome of Battle), the former much more tankier and resistant, you enemies will drop dead from exhaustion trying to kill you or if you use the latter you can slice, dice, and blend anything you want. It comes in THF and TWF varieties.

Psychic Warrior (XPH and SRD) a great self contained gish, you can buff/survive/lay down smack all by yourself, though considering your DM is banning tier 1 and tier 2 classes it might be iffy (it is a tier 3 class; but I would say it stands almost on the verge of tier 2)

Bard: Ultimate non-tier 1/2 machine, specially if you use DFI which is a force multiplies, what do you think of 5d6 extra elemental damage per hit? How about 20d6 extra damage (spread through the whole party), can make a decent spellcaster (more than decent if you use sublime chord).

And those are just some options from the top of my head

[Saintheart]

About the only thought I had from experience DMing it is: please do not play optimised Beguilers. They break the hell out of RHOD.

And this is one occasion where I should absolutely, positively tell you not to go anywhere near the link in my sig (though I encourage your DM to do so) :smalltongue:

[Black_Balor]

About the only thought I had from experience DMing it is: please do not play optimised Beguilers. They break the hell out of RHOD.

How would they do that, they don't seem that game breaking? :smallconfused:

[faceroll]

How would they do that, they don't seem that game breaking? :smallconfused:

It's extremely easy to get DCs on your spells that are virtually unbeatable by most NPCs, especially NPCs built by WotC. A beguiler's spells are mostly charm and dominate effects, and while easily. It can thoroughly trash a by-the-books approach to RHoD, as everything you encounter is now your best friend.

[Saintheart]

It's extremely easy to get DCs on your spells that are virtually unbeatable by most NPCs, especially NPCs built by WotC. A beguiler's spells are mostly charm and dominate effects, and while easily. It can thoroughly trash a by-the-books approach to RHoD, as everything you encounter is now your best friend.

Object example: (spoiler'd for the sake of the OP, who's a prospective player :smalltongue: ):

One of the larger boss battles in the game is a battle against a juvenile black dragon and his level 7 ranger buddy. In my own campaign, the party wisely avoided a front-on approach, instead killing the dragon's other hobgoblin buddies in its lair and then waiting for it to come back after it was out hunting for food.

The party's Beguiler 6/Mindbender 1, a changeling, aided by a Hat of Disguise, Glibness, and various image spells, very reliably defeated the dragon's Sense Motive and Spot checks, thereby convincing said dragon he was one of the dragon's hobgoblin allies. He then led the dragon into a large room in the lair, which functioned perfectly as a killing jar for an ambush.

And that's before you consider the fact said Beguiler, being a changeling with telepathy, had access to Mindsight, which has a 100 foot range in a game where virtually all of the major encounter dungeons are 100 feet across or less. One round for complete intel on monsters' locations? Makes the party basically Rainbow Six. I recommend banning this feat for that reason alone.

[Coidzor]

What do you want your character to be able to do?

[only1doug]

Tiers (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=g9oc04n28n5s7avn5ps3855dg7&topic=5293) by JaronK

Tier 1: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played with skill, can easily break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat or plenty of house rules, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party.

Examples: Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Archivist, Artificer, Erudite (Spell to Power Variant)

Tier 2: Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes. Still potentially campaign smashers by using the right abilities, but at the same time are more predictable and can't always have the right tool for the job. If the Tier 1 classes are countries with 10,000 nuclear weapons in their arsenal, these guys are countries with 10 nukes. Still dangerous and easily world shattering, but not in quite so many ways. Note that the Tier 2 classes are often less flexible than Tier 3 classes... it's just that their incredible potential power overwhelms their lack in flexibility.

Examples: Sorcerer, Favored Soul, Psion, Binder (with access to online vestiges), Eurdite (No Spell to Power)

Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Can be game breaking only with specific intent to do so. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.

Examples: Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Crusader, Bard, Swordsage, Binder (without access to the summon monster vestige), Wildshape Varient Ranger, Duskblade, Factotum, Warblade, Psychic Warrior

Tier 4: Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competance without truly shining. Rarely has any abilities that can outright handle an encounter unless that encounter plays directly to the class's main strength. DMs may sometimes need to work to make sure Tier 4s can contribute to an encounter, as their abilities may sometimes leave them useless. Won't outshine anyone except Tier 6s except in specific circumstances that play to their strengths. Cannot compete effectively with Tier 1s that are played well.

Examples: Rogue, Barbarian, Warlock, Warmage, Scout, Ranger, Hexblade, Adept, Spellthief, Marshal, Fighter (Zhentarium Variant)

Tier 5: Capable of doing only one thing, and not necessarily all that well, or so unfocused that they have trouble mastering anything, and in many types of encounters the character cannot contribute. In some cases, can do one thing very well, but that one thing is very often not needed. Has trouble shining in any encounter unless the encounter matches their strengths. DMs may have to work to avoid the player feeling that their character is worthless unless the entire party is Tier 4 and below. Characters in this tier will often feel like one trick ponies if they do well, or just feel like they have no tricks at all if they build the class poorly.

Examples: Fighter, Monk, CA Ninja, Healer, Swashbuckler, Rokugan Ninja, Soulknife, Expert, OA Samurai, Paladin, Knight, CW Samurai (with Imperious Command available)

As you read through the descriptions of the tiers you'll notice that tier 5 is probably worth avoiding, which leaves you tiers 3 & 4 to choose from.

What character concept do you have in mind?


Tier 3
Beguiler
Dread Necromancer
Crusader
Bard
Swordsage
Binder (without access to the summon monster vestige)
Wildshape Varient Ranger
Duskblade
Factotum
Warblade
Psychic Warrior

Tier 4
Rogue
Barbarian
Warlock
Warmage
Scout
Ranger
Hexblade
Adept
Spellthief
Marshal
Fighter (Zhentarium Variant)

[Black_Balor]

What do you want your character to be able to do?

Well I was looking for a support roll because the others in the group think stuff like spells and other characters Hp are too much book keeping.

[Dusk Eclipse]

a DFI bard seems a good option then.

[Coidzor]

Well I was looking for a support roll because the others in the group think stuff like spells and other characters Hp are too much book keeping.

Tier 3 with support abilities, spellcasting, and/or some manner of healing abilities. Though most of these are going to be better at out of combat healing as from a wand. Which is better anyway.

Shugenja (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4367.0)- comes in different elemental flavored varieties that effect the abilities of the character. spellcaster that's similar to cleric, but has less overall power.

Factotum (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2720.0)- less supporty, but very flexible & has all skills as class skills & for out of combat healing, UMDing a wand of cure light will suffice. Has a bit of casting that it can select from the wizard/sorcerer list as spell like abilities.

Bard (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8284.0)- Inspire Courage (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9830.0) support, flexible in build, & can just use a wand of Cure Light Wounds to heal outside of combat without taking the spell or Use Magic Device ranks. Spellcasting as a nice bonus to a skill and support chassis.

Dread Necromancer (http://community.wizards.com/bleak_academy/wiki/Dread_Necromancer%27s_Handbook) - substitutes minions in place of party members to take damage and can heal undead and characters with the tomb-tainted soul feat for free. Can use fear-based abilities to weaken opponents to make them easier for the party+minions to kill.

Binder (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=137.20)- Has a lot of choose your abilities for the day abilities. Has some support & healing abilities which would allow you to fulfill those roles and possibly switch around depending upon the needs of the party.

Crusader (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4227.0) - can be multiclassed with Bard to progress inspire courage to with crusader levels by taking the Song of the White Raven feat (also works with warblade), and white raven school maneuvers can give your allies more options/actions. Have some healing abilities in and of themselves, though fairly limited, but are very durable in and of themselves.

Mystic Ranger - somewhat disputed tier-wise and is dragon magazine material so it's of uncertain allowability. The Mystic Ranger changes the standard ranger up by taking away the animal companion and proficiency with martial weapons of the melee persuasion and giving 0th and 5th level spells and casting progression from first level that is similar to that of the bard. With this variant class and the feat Sword of the Arcane Order, both ranger and wizard spells(though you need to maintain a spellbook) of up to 5th level are at your disposal. Lots of MAD issues, potentially, and has to contend with rather low spells per day. but is still skillful & can do wand-based healing while occasionally pitching in spells to aid the party while doing ranged damage with a bow.


Tier 4

Dragon Shaman (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19865414/The_Dragon_Shaman_Handbook) - Healing and other support through auras.

Marshall (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869226/Marshal_Build_Help) - Support through auras. Give your charisma to other people's rolls as well as your own.

Adept - Normally an NPC class, but it does have spellcasting and the list does have a few gems & allows use of wand-based healing without investing skill ranks in Use Magic Device.

[Timeless Error]

Dread Necromancer - substitutes minions in place of party members to take damage and can heal undead and characters with the tomb-tainted soul feat for free. Can use fear-based abilities to weaken opponents to make them easier for the party+minions to kill.

As a side note, Dread Necromancers will excel in RHoD, since their main thing is creating undead, and there are going to be more corpses than you can count in this campaign. In fact, I would recommend to your DM to ban the Dread Necromancer along with the Beguiler.

[Godskook]

A really strong class that's not going to tear the game apart(read: no minionmancy, charm focus or excessive tier placement) is Dragonfire Adept. With entangling exhalation, you get an every-round AoE debuff that also deals decent damage, more-so the longer combat goes. Its also target-friendly, thanks to an invocation DFAs get early.

You also naturally qualify for draconic auras, allowing you to pick up Draconic Aura(Vigor) for the cost of a feat, for passive healing benefits. From there, you've got quite a few options, since your Breath Weapon is only Con dependent, you can focus Int and become a lore monkey, or you can focus your Cha, and become the party face. DFA is also a stronger class than his Shaman cousin, in that your breath weapon is good enough to solve all your combat needs, plus invocations are quite strong as well, while D-Shamans can't use their breath weapon as their sole combat solution, and thus require you to spend resources on becoming a good combatant(feats, weapons, and such).

[balistafreak]

Seconding Dragonfire Adept.

Seriously, the class is about as hard to completely mess up as a Tome of Battle character. (Although I did once see a PbP application that had a DFA with negative Constitution, wut).

They have a very high "floor" because it's hard to intentionally gimp them, they're fun to optimize as there's simply so much you can add onto the chassis, and yet none of it really approaches the stupid-broken-omniscient-utility power of Vancian spells.

This guide will help you some. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870954/The_New_Dragonfire_Adept_Handbook!) Seeing as you don't seem too familiar with the more exotic stuff of character optimization, just focus on the introduction, races, invocations, and breath effects.

************

The sparknotes "noob" build I like to hand to people with no idea of what a DFA is:

Be a human, just because humans are familiar to most players and bonus feats are tasty. The only feat requirement is Entangling Exhalation although Ability Focus (breath weapon) is strongly suggested. You must take Endure Exposure as your first invocation to avoid accidentally barbequing your teammates but after that you can take whatever you want, although there are a few choices that are decidedly meh. When available, take Slow Breath over any other breath effect choice, but otherwise pick what you think is cool.

If you don't have an invocation that you'll be spamming in combat, wear armor and get a shield.

Take skill ranks in pretty much whatever you feel fits the character.

Build complete.