Akal Saris
2011-08-02, 09:42 PM
Hey all!
I'm a big fan of the Legacy Champion prestige class from Weapons of Legacy - '+X of Previous Class' prestige classes, rare as they are, have a lot of potential in them. I'd like to explore it a little, and I figured this might be a fun optimization exercise for people. If there's interest I might expand this to a full on guide to the prestige class and Weapon of Legacy mechanics.
How to optimize legacy champion:
1. The '+X of Previous Class' part. 8/10 of the class allows you to expand a previous class's advancement, while replacing its chassis with legacy champion's d8 HD, 3/4 BAB, +0/+0/+2 Will saves, 4 skills/level with all previous skills plus concentration, decipher script, know (history), UMD, and gather info.
A. Use it to optimize short prestige classes with level-based mechanics, and advance those mechanics beyond their normal 3 or 5 levels. This is the common use I see referenced for legacy champion.
Examples:
-Hellfire Warlock (3d6/level Blast)
-War Weaver (+1 level of spell into weave/level)
-Fiend of Corruption (+1 bonus of item possessed/level)
-Zhentarim Skymage (+1 HD of special mount/level)
-What other excellent candidates can one think of?
B. Use it to optimize or augment classes with a similar or worse base chasis who don't especially mind 8/10 advancement of class features.
Examples:
-Truenamer (Sadly, this is one of the only PrCs to advance true-naming)
-War Hulk PrC (replaces +0 BAB with 3/4 BAB)
-Factotum
-Artificer
-Psychic Warrior
2. Optimize the Legacy Weapon aspect of the class
A. Create-your-own weapon. This has its own mini-guide over at BG: Building a Weapon of Legacy, for dummies (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5907.0). Basically there are some very cool things you can do if you have free rein over your "weapon." Legacy Champion also lets you gain these abilities without the gold cost of the rituals, and you gain more uses/day for some abilities.
Examples:
-Free metamagic rod effects for a caster
-Never be surprised
-Time Stop 1/day
B. Use the weapons already created. I'm betting many DMs would be open to bringing a legacy weapon into the game if the PC talks to them about it, and a pre-made weapon with a developed background is an easier "sell" than a PC-created one, especially since its likely to be a lot less broken. With that in mind, most legacy weapons make your PC worse, not better, due to the penalties you take from them for minimal benefits. There are definitely some keepers though.
Here's a write-up I did on them earlier:
Weapons of Legacy
Celdoriath's Clarion (Trumpet)
-Lets you summon monsters a few times/day and do a few tricks like bless and knock at will , the main penalty is to skill checks
-Can use telehax's dirty little trick pretty effectively with this
Crimson Ruination (+4 frost keen dragon bane greatsword)
-Good greatsword for a dragon hunter, lose -3 to skill checks and 20HP. The drawbacks are easily overcome or ignored by a barbarian-type
Devious and Vicious (+1 Keen Kukri x2)
-Alright for a skills-focused character, or an intimidation fighter. Vicious is the better of the two kukris - it can auto-Cause fear, take 10 on intimidate
Divine Spark (Silver holy symbol of resistance +5)
-Good for a cleric who actually turns undead, all solid abilities and the penalties are negligible.
Flay (+1 animal bane whip)
-Good low-level weapon for somebody with whip proficiency (bard), particularly good for trippers and grapplers because it can grapple on its own at your bonus +4 after you trip something.
Frostburn (Masterwork/+1 frost quarterstaff)
-Decent with Ice Storm, etc. spells
-Wiz/sorc staff - lots of evoker style spells. Not all that terrific, but nice flavor.
Hammer of Witches (+4 warhammer, wizard bane)
-Good against arcane casters, basically divine caster only. Best for cleric or favored soul
Mau-Jehe (+3 ghost touch keen short sword)
-soulknife weapon mostly. Has the cunning ability, as well as stable focus, which are 2 of the best legacy powers around.
Quickspur's Ally (+5 bashing shield (+5 weapon))
-terrific for a mounted shield-bash user...if any exist! Well, good for a ubermount build at least. Gives a ton of spell-like defenses that affect both you and your mount.
Scarab of Arados (Scarab of resistance +5)
-A solid one for an arcane spellcaster - gives some temp. HP and extends spells, acts as cloak of resistance. easy penalties to avoid
Shishi-O (+5 thundering katana)
-17th level ability grants pounce! Otherwise meh - some random summoning and polymorph abilities are included.
The Simple Bow (+2 longbow of speed)
-Good for a Soulbow or maybe some psychic warrior builds!
Treebrother (Staff (50 charges of light))
-OK for a druid or ranger, not great though. Gives wild empathy with plants and a mini-HiPS around trees.
Other books and modules:
Wyrmbane Helm (Dragon magic)
-Decent for a duskblade or other gish
Spidersilk (Demonweb Pits) (+3 glamered "twilight" mithril chain shirt)
-good for a warmage/dread necromancer, alright for other spellcasters after 13th (when it effectively gains the twilight ability). Losses aren't bad, but benefits aren't that great either
Adaal (demonweb pits)
-Not very good
Crown Adamant (exped. to undermountain)
-Decent, but a bit hard to fulfill prereqs. best on a cleric?
Holy Symbol of Ravenloft (Exped. to Castle Ravenloft)
-So-so for a cleric, the attack penalty hurts but the rest is good.
Sunsword (Exped. to Castle Ravenloft)
-Great for any game with lots of undead, otherwise mediocre. Undeath's Bane is especially nice, as are the higher level abilities. Good on a full BAB class.
Blackrazor (White Plume Mountain)
-Notable as perhaps the most dangerous WoL imaginable for a non-undead PC. It's an epic-level life-draining undead monstrosity from an alien dimension, banished to our plane - what did you expect?
First off, it penalizes your Fort saves up to -4. If you fail your first ritual, you gain a negative level, possibly more depending on your check. For the second ritual, you need to take 2 negative levels and then can't magically remove them - you need to tough out the fort save for them. For the third ritual, you need to visit the plane of negative energy for 8 hours - a hellhole of negative levels if there ever was one.
Meanwhile, it grows in ego each level, until at 20th it has an ego score of 23 - enough to completely overpower a lot of melee characters. All Blackrazor wants is for you to wield it. Not so bad, right? Except that it's a vicious weapon, so every swing hurts you. And if you use its soul-draining power (basically a free Deathknell on creatures you bring to dying, after 17th it's automatic) to kill an undead, you gain a negative level.
In return, you get a +5 weapon that gives +5 to mind-affecting saves and haste up to 10 rounds/day. I think not.
Wave (White Plume Mountain)
-Meh, not really worth it unless you're always underwater or something.
Whelm (White Plume Mountain)
-Gets bonus points for referencing another Gygax module, Against the Giants. Anyhow, it's alright but a little under"whelm"ing, basically just a good choice if you're expecting to fight a lot of giants and goblinoids.
Book of Nine Swords
Desert Wind
-A solid weapon, though -2 to attacks hurts. But lots of desert wind maneuvers and dex boosts.
Faithful Avenger
-All in all, a great weapon for a tank. Best on a LG or NG crusader, but all-around solid. It gives bonuses to att/dmg against diametrically opposed alignments, as well as some restoration powers, con bonuses, and holy or unholy.
Supernal Clarity
-Terrific weapon for a finesse fighter (it's a keen rapier). The capstone is Timestop 1/day at 20th, but the other powers are all solid and flavorful.
Kamate
-I totally dig the omen: whenever you draw it, you hear the faint sound of a hobgoblin chanting Kamate four times in a row, each time slightly louder. Kamate, Kamate, Kamate, KAMATE! Unfortunately, the powers are mediocre.
Eventide's Edge
-Pretty solid, it works as an alternative to a monk's belt when wielded, and goes up to a +4 defending short sword. Probably best for a caster, surprisingly- especially if you actually gain Baffling Defense instead of Comet Throw from the sword.
Umbral Awn
-Best for a rogue or swordsage, or anyone who can flank often (maybe a beast heart adept?). Grants some sneak attack (up to 3d6), as well as a weak HiPS ripoff (but at very low level!), and also invisibility at will and some minor flanking benefits. I'm a big fan of this one.
Unfettered
-Decent, but nothing special. Much like Stone Dragon in general...
Tiger Claw (+1 Keen Kukri)
-Awesome weapon for a crit-focused build , since its critical modifier eventually becomes x4, and it grants +4 to confirm criticals. Also nice benefits on Jump checks.
Blade of the Last Citadel
-Nifty powers for a tank/leader-type, including a 1/day hasted Heal on yourself at 20th.
3. Optimize the mechanics as a DM.
A. I use legacy weapon mechanics as a DM pretty frequently, since I like how they parallel the growth of the PCs. It lets me give the PCs a variety of loot without worrying about needing to give them a replacement weapon every few levels as well, and they also make interesting quest hooks/quest goals. So I'm interested in playgrounder input from other DMs that have used legacy weapons as loot or NPC tools.
Well, playgrounders? What say you?
I'm a big fan of the Legacy Champion prestige class from Weapons of Legacy - '+X of Previous Class' prestige classes, rare as they are, have a lot of potential in them. I'd like to explore it a little, and I figured this might be a fun optimization exercise for people. If there's interest I might expand this to a full on guide to the prestige class and Weapon of Legacy mechanics.
How to optimize legacy champion:
1. The '+X of Previous Class' part. 8/10 of the class allows you to expand a previous class's advancement, while replacing its chassis with legacy champion's d8 HD, 3/4 BAB, +0/+0/+2 Will saves, 4 skills/level with all previous skills plus concentration, decipher script, know (history), UMD, and gather info.
A. Use it to optimize short prestige classes with level-based mechanics, and advance those mechanics beyond their normal 3 or 5 levels. This is the common use I see referenced for legacy champion.
Examples:
-Hellfire Warlock (3d6/level Blast)
-War Weaver (+1 level of spell into weave/level)
-Fiend of Corruption (+1 bonus of item possessed/level)
-Zhentarim Skymage (+1 HD of special mount/level)
-What other excellent candidates can one think of?
B. Use it to optimize or augment classes with a similar or worse base chasis who don't especially mind 8/10 advancement of class features.
Examples:
-Truenamer (Sadly, this is one of the only PrCs to advance true-naming)
-War Hulk PrC (replaces +0 BAB with 3/4 BAB)
-Factotum
-Artificer
-Psychic Warrior
2. Optimize the Legacy Weapon aspect of the class
A. Create-your-own weapon. This has its own mini-guide over at BG: Building a Weapon of Legacy, for dummies (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5907.0). Basically there are some very cool things you can do if you have free rein over your "weapon." Legacy Champion also lets you gain these abilities without the gold cost of the rituals, and you gain more uses/day for some abilities.
Examples:
-Free metamagic rod effects for a caster
-Never be surprised
-Time Stop 1/day
B. Use the weapons already created. I'm betting many DMs would be open to bringing a legacy weapon into the game if the PC talks to them about it, and a pre-made weapon with a developed background is an easier "sell" than a PC-created one, especially since its likely to be a lot less broken. With that in mind, most legacy weapons make your PC worse, not better, due to the penalties you take from them for minimal benefits. There are definitely some keepers though.
Here's a write-up I did on them earlier:
Weapons of Legacy
Celdoriath's Clarion (Trumpet)
-Lets you summon monsters a few times/day and do a few tricks like bless and knock at will , the main penalty is to skill checks
-Can use telehax's dirty little trick pretty effectively with this
Crimson Ruination (+4 frost keen dragon bane greatsword)
-Good greatsword for a dragon hunter, lose -3 to skill checks and 20HP. The drawbacks are easily overcome or ignored by a barbarian-type
Devious and Vicious (+1 Keen Kukri x2)
-Alright for a skills-focused character, or an intimidation fighter. Vicious is the better of the two kukris - it can auto-Cause fear, take 10 on intimidate
Divine Spark (Silver holy symbol of resistance +5)
-Good for a cleric who actually turns undead, all solid abilities and the penalties are negligible.
Flay (+1 animal bane whip)
-Good low-level weapon for somebody with whip proficiency (bard), particularly good for trippers and grapplers because it can grapple on its own at your bonus +4 after you trip something.
Frostburn (Masterwork/+1 frost quarterstaff)
-Decent with Ice Storm, etc. spells
-Wiz/sorc staff - lots of evoker style spells. Not all that terrific, but nice flavor.
Hammer of Witches (+4 warhammer, wizard bane)
-Good against arcane casters, basically divine caster only. Best for cleric or favored soul
Mau-Jehe (+3 ghost touch keen short sword)
-soulknife weapon mostly. Has the cunning ability, as well as stable focus, which are 2 of the best legacy powers around.
Quickspur's Ally (+5 bashing shield (+5 weapon))
-terrific for a mounted shield-bash user...if any exist! Well, good for a ubermount build at least. Gives a ton of spell-like defenses that affect both you and your mount.
Scarab of Arados (Scarab of resistance +5)
-A solid one for an arcane spellcaster - gives some temp. HP and extends spells, acts as cloak of resistance. easy penalties to avoid
Shishi-O (+5 thundering katana)
-17th level ability grants pounce! Otherwise meh - some random summoning and polymorph abilities are included.
The Simple Bow (+2 longbow of speed)
-Good for a Soulbow or maybe some psychic warrior builds!
Treebrother (Staff (50 charges of light))
-OK for a druid or ranger, not great though. Gives wild empathy with plants and a mini-HiPS around trees.
Other books and modules:
Wyrmbane Helm (Dragon magic)
-Decent for a duskblade or other gish
Spidersilk (Demonweb Pits) (+3 glamered "twilight" mithril chain shirt)
-good for a warmage/dread necromancer, alright for other spellcasters after 13th (when it effectively gains the twilight ability). Losses aren't bad, but benefits aren't that great either
Adaal (demonweb pits)
-Not very good
Crown Adamant (exped. to undermountain)
-Decent, but a bit hard to fulfill prereqs. best on a cleric?
Holy Symbol of Ravenloft (Exped. to Castle Ravenloft)
-So-so for a cleric, the attack penalty hurts but the rest is good.
Sunsword (Exped. to Castle Ravenloft)
-Great for any game with lots of undead, otherwise mediocre. Undeath's Bane is especially nice, as are the higher level abilities. Good on a full BAB class.
Blackrazor (White Plume Mountain)
-Notable as perhaps the most dangerous WoL imaginable for a non-undead PC. It's an epic-level life-draining undead monstrosity from an alien dimension, banished to our plane - what did you expect?
First off, it penalizes your Fort saves up to -4. If you fail your first ritual, you gain a negative level, possibly more depending on your check. For the second ritual, you need to take 2 negative levels and then can't magically remove them - you need to tough out the fort save for them. For the third ritual, you need to visit the plane of negative energy for 8 hours - a hellhole of negative levels if there ever was one.
Meanwhile, it grows in ego each level, until at 20th it has an ego score of 23 - enough to completely overpower a lot of melee characters. All Blackrazor wants is for you to wield it. Not so bad, right? Except that it's a vicious weapon, so every swing hurts you. And if you use its soul-draining power (basically a free Deathknell on creatures you bring to dying, after 17th it's automatic) to kill an undead, you gain a negative level.
In return, you get a +5 weapon that gives +5 to mind-affecting saves and haste up to 10 rounds/day. I think not.
Wave (White Plume Mountain)
-Meh, not really worth it unless you're always underwater or something.
Whelm (White Plume Mountain)
-Gets bonus points for referencing another Gygax module, Against the Giants. Anyhow, it's alright but a little under"whelm"ing, basically just a good choice if you're expecting to fight a lot of giants and goblinoids.
Book of Nine Swords
Desert Wind
-A solid weapon, though -2 to attacks hurts. But lots of desert wind maneuvers and dex boosts.
Faithful Avenger
-All in all, a great weapon for a tank. Best on a LG or NG crusader, but all-around solid. It gives bonuses to att/dmg against diametrically opposed alignments, as well as some restoration powers, con bonuses, and holy or unholy.
Supernal Clarity
-Terrific weapon for a finesse fighter (it's a keen rapier). The capstone is Timestop 1/day at 20th, but the other powers are all solid and flavorful.
Kamate
-I totally dig the omen: whenever you draw it, you hear the faint sound of a hobgoblin chanting Kamate four times in a row, each time slightly louder. Kamate, Kamate, Kamate, KAMATE! Unfortunately, the powers are mediocre.
Eventide's Edge
-Pretty solid, it works as an alternative to a monk's belt when wielded, and goes up to a +4 defending short sword. Probably best for a caster, surprisingly- especially if you actually gain Baffling Defense instead of Comet Throw from the sword.
Umbral Awn
-Best for a rogue or swordsage, or anyone who can flank often (maybe a beast heart adept?). Grants some sneak attack (up to 3d6), as well as a weak HiPS ripoff (but at very low level!), and also invisibility at will and some minor flanking benefits. I'm a big fan of this one.
Unfettered
-Decent, but nothing special. Much like Stone Dragon in general...
Tiger Claw (+1 Keen Kukri)
-Awesome weapon for a crit-focused build , since its critical modifier eventually becomes x4, and it grants +4 to confirm criticals. Also nice benefits on Jump checks.
Blade of the Last Citadel
-Nifty powers for a tank/leader-type, including a 1/day hasted Heal on yourself at 20th.
3. Optimize the mechanics as a DM.
A. I use legacy weapon mechanics as a DM pretty frequently, since I like how they parallel the growth of the PCs. It lets me give the PCs a variety of loot without worrying about needing to give them a replacement weapon every few levels as well, and they also make interesting quest hooks/quest goals. So I'm interested in playgrounder input from other DMs that have used legacy weapons as loot or NPC tools.
Well, playgrounders? What say you?