Build assistance for my new players...

[Ganorenas]

Alright, I am running a group of 4 players, and right now, it looks like all but two of the four will be doing just fine in the game world...
So my fellow Dm's, min/max masters (i am not good enough at min/max to be one of you :smallfrown: ), and gamers alike, how can i help my little rogues feel more useful...? (i am not saying anything against rogues, i just don't see them having as much fun as the Wizard and Cleric from the beginning due to their abilities being very limited with the campaign bbeg)

I've got:

Kobold Wizard (he wanted to be a caster instead of his usual Fighter or Barbarian build, but he is good and won't need any help) who specializes in Transmutation and is banned from Enchantment and Necromancy (He is almost exclusively picking feats from Races of the Dragon and Dragon Magic)
:smallbiggrin:
Also, his flavor to the table is that he will only speak two languages... Draconic and Undercommon, while he has a +4 Int mod... which is possible because Kobolds don't automaticly speak common... luckily, without telling any of the other players, they all chose to speak draconic because they like the dragon aspect it gives them... go figure

Elf Cleric of Ehlonna (Older player, hasn't played in about 20 years, but shes learning -remembering?- quickly and should be alright) who has stats of 14,14,14,14,18,16 so i see no issues with her, she will be just fine and will probably stick with being a cleric til 20, which as most would agree is a great build (I havn't told her that she is playing a Tier one class, she can figure that out by how OP she will be against the undead armies and minions of the Lich BBEG) :smallbiggrin:

One i want to assist...
Elf Rogue (with stats that are... well... she has low hp and damage output because of her Con and Str... but should otherwise be alright)
Str 9
Dex 18
Con 8
Int 16
Wis 16
Cha 12
I want to find a (few) good prestige class(es) for her to have, all books are open, i have a few and am willing to get the ones i don't have :smallsmile:

Human Rogue (Both Rogues are adamant on being rogues, in the same group, focusing on being skill monkeys'... each. This one has all Stats of 13,13,13,13,14,16, so she can do anything, but nothing is great at nothing...) and would like prestige classes that could make her able to control the field of battle, while keeping her first level as a rogue and being sneaky about it...



Notes as a whole, most of the battles will be with undead or their controllers, meaning the cleric and wizard to handle the undead while the rogues will (hopefully) decide to work together and kill the clerics and wizards while utilizing their sneak attacks and blah blah

I am only concerned for the Rogues, since they have to compete with two Tier 1 allies, and currently are both open to any suggestion other than "one of you play something else"



Tiny recap: looking for prestige classes, or a quick build suggestion, so both rogues will feel less nerfed and more useful against undead while still keeping a rogue-like feel to their chars... :smallbiggrin:

(the human is fine with multi- anything)

Thank you in advance, i hope to hear back soon :smallsmile:

[Flickerdart]

Rules Compendium - all characters speak Common.

Rogues get a lot of their usefulness from PrCs. With those high mental stats, the Elf could go Rogue/Wizard into Unseen Seer and then Uncanny Trickster. She should take Wizard until 5th level for the fantastic Spontaneous Divination, which gives her access to Sniper Shot, meaning her Sneak Attack now has unlimited range...or she could multiclass into Archivist and do the same thing faster, but with less style. There are a handful of Divine+Sneaky PrCs, but not many. Greater Invisibility will make her sneak attack easier to use.

Beguiler seems like a better fit for your other player - they're exceptionally sneaky, their Intelligence focus gives them better skill points than the Rogue's, and they have many useful spells for what she wants to do.

If they want to stick to Rogue...there are Ambush feats, which let them convert their Sneak Attack into handy dandy penalties to stuff. A sneaky full attack with arrows on a bunch of enemies can ruin their day quite nicely.

Rogues can sneak attack with wands - so drop them a few attack spell wands and get them to UMD them. Wands of damage-dealing cantrips are dirt cheap, but give the rogues a touch attack way of dealing their damage.

[Ganorenas]

Then maybe i was thinking of the casters as to powerful compared to the rogues

Thank you Flickerdart, i'll make sure they see this :smallsmile:

and that the Kobold knows he has to speak common :smalltongue:

i think the human would definitely want to hear about Beguiler, especially since it will keep her sneakiness and give her the spell options, i'll show her that class tomorrow


Which book will give me a few of the better ambush feats? Ones that would make them Oooo and Ahhhh :smalltongue:

and i didn't know they could sneak attack with wands! i will bring this to their attention (i did know they could sneak attack with melee -duh- and ranged attacks within 30ft, so they would love to hear about magic sneak attacks) :smallbiggrin:

[Flickerdart]

It's only with weapon-like spells (those that require attack rolls and deal damage).

Complete Scoundrel has 10 Ambush feats. There are 4 in Drow of the Underdark and 8 in Dragon #344, including the amazing Lacerate, which can shut down two-handed weapon brutes and casters who wield weapons by denying them the use of one hand. And then the next sneak attack can use it again, disabling their other hand. It should be easy for the Rogues to mop up when their enemies can't wield weapons!

Remember that Sneak Attack and Skirmish are equivalent when qualifying for them (this ruling is in a sidebar in Complete Adventurer, in the Scout class).

[Ganorenas]

Then i will definitely bring those to their attention :smallsmile:

and shall look through Complete Scoundrel and under dark :smallsmile:

Currently, i will probably be the middleman for their questions on this page lol



Question as a dm/player, is there anything especially special i should know about sneak attacks? In the games i have played there have been few sneak attacks from any rogue...

I understand that they can be made on flat-footed enemies, and when the attacker is flanking, but are there other ways to initiate a sneak attack?

[marcielle]

Sneak attacks apply to EVERY attack in your turn so long as they are denied Dex bonus to AC, not just the first. Some people say it's limited to the first but IIRC that isn't actually stated anywhere.

As for getting more sneak attacks, anyone without 5 ranks in balance while standing on Grease or similiar effects is considered flatfooted. IF you have 5 ranks(trivial for a rouge), just fight you're opponents on Grease and sneak attack all you like.
Sometimes your opponent will be smart enough to walk off the oil, In that case, a collar of perpetual attandance and a sprayer full of plain oil will make your day.

Also, you are missing a dedicated frontline melee. If they don't mind learning a bit more, the human could go for Swordsage(Woulda suggested Warblade but they are about as stealthy as a Tarrasque). Decent skills, better combat ability and most importantly Shadow Hand. Tempting aspects include teleportation, GREATER invisibility and simply telling your opponent 'eff you, you are flanked because I say so'. Swordsages MAD will actually BENEFIT from her load of average scores as they can make good use of eveything but CHA.

Swordsages can get a lot outta rouge dips if they focus on sneak attack damage. Piercing strike and Craven are must haves for rouges in heavy undead setting(craven is a must have ALWAYS).

You can get into shadow sun ninja with 1 feat. The rest of the prereqs you will probably take anyway if you're a swordsage. If you can become undead youreself(Necropolitan), you can spam the capstone for nerfing fun without worry. It is laso thematically awesome, considering the class fluff.

[Daftendirekt]

I understand that they can be made on flat-footed enemies, and when the attacker is flanking, but are there other ways to initiate a sneak attack?

Any time the target is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC (Even if that bonus would be zero).


Rules Compendium - all characters speak Common.

Also, that is so incredibly boring.

[SowZ]

Why does the rogue have such a high Wisdom and such a low Strength?

As far as keeping the rogue useful, give said rogue access to many goodies. Not just magical items, but gadgets. Technology can mimick magic soetimes and will give the rogue unique ways to solve problems. Encourage creative ways to win encounters using tools and not just shanking. Also poisons and bombs. Those will keep power level in fights reasonably similar until the high levels. The rogue should stay useful for awhile by virtue of being a skill monkey, if nothing else.

[Daftendirekt]

Why does the rogue have such a high Wisdom and such a low Strength?

They probably rolled stats?

[SowZ]

They probably rolled stats?

Yeah, but in order? That's brutal... Haven't done that one in, oh, five years?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If they want to be a skillmonkey-type, maybe show one of them Beguiler (PH2), sell it as more of a trick-you-rogue instead of a stab-you-rogue.

For the other, suggest they try Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723a) or maybe dip Psion (with Practiced Manifester for the bonus feat) and go into Psychic Assassin at that same link. (Remove the evil and special prerequisites along with the death attack class feature.) The Mind Cripple special ability from either of those with TWF can outright disable many opponents in only a few rounds. If they UMD a Wand of Grave Strike they can even use that to disable intelligent undead, though mindless undead would be unaffected. If the BBELich is a Wizard, this character could actually turn out to be the greatest threat.

[Endarire]

How'zbout some Swordsage for that Rogue? Rogue2/Swordsage works well for Evasion.

[marcielle]

How'zbout some Swordsage for that Rogue? Rogue2/Swordsage works well for Evasion.

See my post. I am afraid that you were swordsage'd:smallbiggrin:

[Ganorenas]

The human says "THANK YOU!!!" to you guys, she is very much looking forward to being a rogue/beguiler :smallsmile: and at this moment is changing her class into beguiler from the get-go... you guys did something i couldn't do and convinced her to change class, gratz :smallbiggrin:

The Kobold says "...I refuse to speak common then"
he was... upset but took it in good humor? :smalleek:

Our elf is very happy to learn more about sneak attacks (as am i) and is currently discussing with the wizard on him getting and using the grease spell so she can be much more effective :smallsmile:

I have no news on our cleric, game starts next Monday, and i think she is stuck between choosing Pelor or Ehlonna, i told her that there will be many undead so she wants to have the Sun and (Good or Healing) domains, and has spent hours on deciding... why hours, i don't know, but shes nervous about her first game since she hasn't played in years...



The elf chose to have a high Wisdom, i think because she wanted to do a divine prestige and so asked me for ideas, but i am not certain...
They did not roll stats in order, they rolled and then choose what went where :smallbiggrin:

I am trying to ...assist (not take over character creation), only when asked and she wanted to put her stats where she put them lol

Thank you for the help, and now i have a new set of questions...
But this time, the Kobold wants to have help choosing a great prestige class (or more). He has expressed the desire to be a blaster, without using more evocation than necessary, which isn't to difficult, but he wants to hear a few great pointers
(the only evocation he currently wants to use is Fireball so he can clear the smaller undead with a light show)

He especially likes single target splats, like Kelgore's Firebolt (not specifically the schools) but that it will ignore spell resistance, which he is very concerned about... and doesn't want to dig through the books himself (he can get lazy) so, if you don't want to help him, simply put "look up the spells in ******* book" and i'll point him to them :smalltongue:

[Ganorenas]

whoops, missed the swordsage comments as i ran through what needed replies

The elf thinks this is interesting, but that it may be something for a different character of her's, seeing how it doesn't fit into her concept of this one, shes looking more for a ranged character than a melee one (though i see that being dex based, with the wisdom bonus to ac would make her difficult for undead to hit at level 2, especially with extra magic items, she would be the tank for the group...)
though she is excited about planning on making her char the tank should everything go down hill due to the lack of one in game play

[Greenish]

I have no news on our cleric, game starts next Monday, and i think she is stuck between choosing Pelor or Ehlonna, i told her that there will be many undead so she wants to have the Sun and (Good or Healing) domains, and has spent hours on deciding... why hours, i don't know, but shes nervous about her first game since she hasn't played in years...Cleric optimizing turning can (literally) destroy undead by the score.

If she's having trouble deciding, maybe give a nudge and point to the Radiant Servant of Pelor from C.Divine.

[Cerlis]

I believe there is an ACF in PH2 that allows you to switch one of your minor class features (trapfinding?) for the ability to do half sneak attack dmg to undead (there is also a AFC in complete champion that allows you to sneak attack undead under some circumstance). with two roguey types one sacrificing trapfinding isnt bad.


also, others may disagree but i'd like to point out that ANY time you attack a suprised opponent (suprise round, not had their turn yet in first round, cant see you, flanking, feignted, or you used the skill trick and/or feat to attack with concieled weapon.......So yea, lots of sneak attacking) you get a sneak attack that means multiple attacks mean every one is a sneak attack. a common "easy " way to get sneak attack is int he first round of combat with a ranged weapon. for consistant sneak attack, sure you need to flank ,or be invisible or something. But i'd just like to point out that Greater many shot gives percision damage to all targets hit. Meaning in suprise round you can sneak attack 3 or so targets at once.then if you win initiative do it again. Also if you have hide in plain sight i THINK you can hide as a move action, meaning you could do this every turn if you have the thing you hide with (shadows for shadow dance, foliage for scout or wild rogue, or cover for rogue) but i could be wrong.

I say others may disagree cus i keep hearing how ranged combat is pretty gimp. and indeed without spells or class features you cant sneak attack past 30 feet even though your bow can hit things almost 400 feet away.

[Greenish]

I believe there is an ACF in PH2 that allows you to switch one of your minor class features (trapfinding?)Dungeonscape and Expedition to Castle Ravenloft are the books, Penetrating Strike is the AFC (they've minor differences in wording, but the same name and basic effect), and Trap Sense is what you trade out.

[Edit]: Also, neither Wilderness Rogue nor Scout needs cover to hide with their HiPS, since they get Camouflage before getting HiPS.

[Flickerdart]

For blasting, Spellwarp Sniper is a nice PrC, and Force Missile Mage can be fun - they specialize in making Magic Missile better. The Orb and Lesser Orb lines of conjurations (SpC) are indispensable to a blaster wizard, as they have no saves or SR and, in the case of the higher-level ones, carry debilitating rider effects along with the damage. There are also a number of caster level boosting feats - you can easily get +8 or so to caster level by lvl3 if you really try, meaning that Spell Resistance becomes even more of a joke than usual. Fire spells are easiest to boost, so tell him to dust off his Scorching Rays and look forward to a mighty Fireball indeed.

Hiding in battle is useless, even with Hide in Plain Sight - you take a -20 penalty to the check. It is better to grab Greater Invisibility, or make sure you have other ways of delivering sneak attack damage: flanking buddies, skill tricks, ways to blind or paralyze the enemy.

[Ganorenas]

Which books can i find Spell warp sniper and Force missile mage in? :smallsmile:
He is very interested in the orbs and interested in making magic missile his main damage casts for single targets

He wants to keep a dragon theme also,being a kobold (Gold dragon-wrought) that will proclaim himself a true dragon... he could pull it off to the untrained eye to... he plans to focus on doing that instead of being max'ed, one level in Dragon Disciple will still push forward his skills, and add his fire breath :smallbiggrin: got to love those scaly little guys

I have dungeonscape and will look for the variants to point out, was actually looking in there yesterday because of my other group... fun group but very limited in what we can and can't use on our characters (the Dm insists on only CORE things, but any and all prestige classes are good... I'm a cleric with poor stats and am saddened that i can not use DMM and Persist cheese to make myself feel like more of a threat) but i was in the book debating with him if Dungeoncrasher was a prestige class or a variant (he said no variants) and ended up making him angry when he actually read the text and saw "Alternate class features" in bold... :smalltongue: so i'll get those two to look at that tomorrow, and see what they want to do (the human has switched to Beguiler by now, so its mostly a "Hey look!" to the elf, who is very impressed with the ambush feats)

[Greenish]

Which books can i find Spell warp sniper and Force missile mage in? :smallsmile:Complete Scoundrel and Dragon Magazine Compendium, respectively.


He wants to keep a dragon theme also,being a kobold (Gold dragon-wrought) that will proclaim himself a true dragon... he could pull it off to the untrained eye to...And to many trained ones. There are many experienced players who hold that a dragonwrought kobold actually is a true dragon. I think so too.


he plans to focus on doing that instead of being max'ed, one level in Dragon Disciple will still push forward his skills, and add his fire breath DD requires spontaneous casting, though. Might he consider a sorcerer, they fit kobolds very neatly.


i was in the book debating with him if Dungeoncrasher was a prestige class or a variantIt's neither. Alternative Class Features are different from Variant Classes (or Substitution Levels, for that matter).

[CodeRed]

Well if your Rogue likes having a high WIS score and you have decided to run a heavy undead themed campaign, Skullclan Hunter is a really good fit. It's from the Miniatures Handbook. It requires at least one level of Cleric or a dip of something that grants you Turn Undead and at least +2d6 Sneak Attack so Rogue 3 or some sort of equivalent. At the 2nd lvl in it lets you sneak attack undead by "infusing the attack with positive energy." It also over ten levels adds some great resistances and the like versus undead.

If they are interested in divine power with a side of rogue, the rogue/paladin or rogue/cleric (Shadowbane prestige classes) from the Complete Adventurer. The Giant has also made a pretty solid Rogue/Cleric Prestige under the Gaming section of his homebrew on the far left side of the screen.

[Greenish]

Temple Raider of Whatshisface is a roguey PrC with minor divine casting in the side.

[Edit]: Olidammara, C.Div. Decent if uninspring class features, two good saves, meh skillpoints but good list, decent if short spell list. Bit late with rogue entry though.

[Zaq]

Temple Raider of Whatshisface is a roguey PrC with minor divine casting in the side.

[Edit]: Olidammara, C.Div. Decent if uninspring class features, two good saves, meh skillpoints but good list, decent if short spell list. Bit late with rogue entry though.

Temple Raider of Olidammara is like Sentinel of Bharrai. It's got a Rogue-y flavor to it, but it's very much not for Rogues. It's for making other classes more Rogue-y. Much like how Sentinel of Bharrai is very Druid-ish, but it's not for Druids.

EDIT: Dug up an old post I made comparing Rogue to TRoO. Here ya go. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10515293&postcount=13)

[Greenish]

Temple Raider of Olidammara is like Sentinel of Bharrai. It's got a Rogue-y flavor to it, but it's very much not for Rogues. It's for making other classes more Rogue-y. Much like how Sentinel of Bharrai is very Druid-ish, but it's not for Druids.True enough.

[Flickerdart]

A dragon theme? What luck! He can trade in his familiar for Draconic Heritage, and then grab Draconic Power, adding +1CL and +1DC to spells with the descriptor of his draconic patron.

[Gnome Alone]

Geez, please let the poor guy not know how to speak Common. You're the DM, you can just houserule him in some of that sweet sweet roleplaying favor.

[ericgrau]

Your the DM, which is extremely helpful for the poor neglected rogue. The main thing is to pile on the traps, opportunities for subterfuge, scouting, etc. Dungeons where you don't want to alert the entire horde of enemies to your presence. Places where traps and locks aren't merely a die roll, but a way to (a) escape the impending doom that might find you or catch up to you and (b) do it without being noticed. All of these situations also open up the opportunity for epic failure after a bad die roll, so remind your rogues to take 10s whenever possible. And don't make the disasters so bad that the party TPKs; shoot for very difficult when everything goes South instead.

Since there are two of them that lets them avoid too many overlapping skills (except the essentials, perhaps), which means even more odd challenges. Large, weird looking paintings or statues to appraise, out-of-dungeon social roleplaying situations, making disguises for the whole party to get through X (similar to subterfuge above), getting captured, sneaking into an area and grabbing something or smuggling in something without a fight, etc.

But remember to always have an option B, for harder ways to solve such challenges without using skills. In case of a failed roll or for the remainder of the party to participate. Nothing like stalling the game because you can't open door X. So kick in the door and fight the impending horde instead. Etc.

As for the builds: Elves are really nice because of all the secret doors they'll find and their good spot/listen. I'd push him towards scouting, searching, etc. Humans are nice from extra skill points. I'd push him towards a couple of the odder or more minor skills. The elf might also want to become a longbow rogue, winning initiative and rapid shot sneak attacking. If his allies can grease or etc. to make foes flat-footed for round 2+, even better. If the human has cha 16, he'll make a great social skill (good use for extra skill points) + UMD rogue, perhaps supplying said grease from a wand. With such low cons they might both want to go ranged. And learn from Haley: always send the fighter in after you check the trap.

[Ganorenas]

At the moment, i think i will just say that he doesn't speak common for the sake of fluff...

My bad, when i said Dragon disciple i meant Dragonfire adept
-it suddenly makes sense in my head and on the board now-
i said the wrong class :smalleek:

the first dungeon is not currently trap heavy, but i am adding in a secret chamber to almost every room, with one of said chambers leading into a deeper dungeon with enough utility loot for the two of them to be happy :smallsmile:
and make the cleric and wizard have more fun

(i dislike using towers as dungeons, because you really only go up or down... so i want to give them more places to explore)

If he can trade his familiar for Draconic Heritage, then i am certain he will do it (he was going with a cat, no idea why, so he will love to have more dragon flavor and fewer fur balls)

[King Atticus]

Which books can i find Spell warp sniper and Force missile mage in? :smallsmile:
He is very interested in the orbs and interested in making magic missile his main damage casts for single targets

He wants to keep a dragon theme also,being a kobold (Gold dragon-wrought) that will proclaim himself a true dragon


I'm playing a similar character in one of the campaigns I'm currently playing in and I love it. I'm a dragonwrought kobold going sorc/spellwarp sniper/incantatrix, it's pretty awesome. Implanting a maximized fireball inside somebody with a range touch attack (neatly avoiding any saves) just makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside...the victim feels that way too I guess. :smallbiggrin:

[TurtleKing]

Aother thing that has not been mentioned is Factotum from Dungoenscape and Chamelon from Races of Destiny. Both focus alot on skills so they can do alot there. I would actually recommend the elf change over or multi-class with factotum and become a ranged sneak attacker. As for the human Chamelon is quite a nice PrC allowing him to do anything. All he has to do is increase his Int and Wis to 16 to get the full benefits from the spellcasting part. Doing this they also be on the front lines if they want to.