Appropriate encounter for level 1?

[SirChuck]

I have recently become a DM - callooh! callay! - and having no actual first hand experience running games - or even playing in a game that started at level 1 (although this is not something negotiable, this game WILL start at level 1) so I am here to get some advice.

Would a group of 4 level 1 NPC-classed monsters, taking some advantage of the environment around them, be a fair challenge against a group of 5 players (the room is likely to be cramped, and not all players will be able to enter combat on the first round)? There's a boss fight following immediately later, and the boss can hit fairly hard, getting someone from full health to almost 0 on a lucky hit with sneak attack damage - although he's not likely to fight the players directly the whole time.

The player group is not very magical, with one or two casters at the most, and the actual dungeon has other challenges that can be resolved creatively without combat.

So, yeah. I know I'm not being too specific, but I'm kind of paranoid that people from my group might get too many insights into what awaits them.

Oh, and another question - I know that CR is not a very good system to create challenges for players... But even then, when various guides tell you to have an encounter's CR being roughly equal to the player's level, does it mean the player group's average level? Or the total?

Thanks.

[Vangor]

Depends on the amount of advantage of the environment, preparation, etc., and how you play them versus the group, honestly. This will be a challenge in most scenarios provided both you and the group play with a similar amount of tactics. Expect them to use a good part of daily resources, perhaps half.

For CR, the entry assumes four party members and the average of those four members.

The greatest issue for CR is the actual monster entries. CR can be useful except for how certain features, abilities, statistics, etc., are weighted high or low. Use CR for early encounters with low level players without high amounts of optimization, and the system generally works. From this, draw conclusions about what causes problems for the players and what the players can overcome with ease. After, throw away CR.

[SirChuck]

Depends on the amount of advantage of the environment, preparation, etc., and how you play them versus the group, honestly. This will be a challenge in most scenarios provided both you and the group play with a similar amount of tactics. Expect them to use a good part of daily resources, perhaps half.

For CR, the entry assumes four party members and the average of those four members.

The greatest issue for CR is the actual monster entries. CR can be useful except for how certain features, abilities, statistics, etc., are weighted high or low. Use CR for early encounters with low level players without high amounts of optimization, and the system generally works. From this, draw conclusions about what causes problems for the players and what the players can overcome with ease. After, throw away CR.

Thanks, that was very helpful.

As for the monsters, I'm using goblins - so while there are quite a few monsters in 3.5 and pathfinder that have rather mismatched CRs, I'd think that 1/3 CR for a goblin warrior sounds about right.

[Flickerdart]

A monster that would have NPC levels (a goblin or something) is only CR 1/3 with one. Four of these guys are CR1 by the system, and the 5-man party should, in theory, have absolutely no trouble with them. Expect a few bruises, but the casters shouldn't even need to waste their spell slots if they brought crossbows.

Now, if they're actually powerful monsters then the game gets dicey, because we don't know what kind of monsters they are. Classed minotaurs will kill everyone, obviously.

[*.*.*.*]

Now, if they're actually powerful monsters then the game gets dicey

Revived Fossil Babboons
Hp:25
AC:24
2d6 Claw attack(arguable)
1d6 bite attack
DR10/adamantine
Immune to cold

CR 1

[Flickerdart]

Ah yes, Fossil Baboons, the Monstrous Crabs of CR1.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Comical encounters that could have gone poorly for them are great, for example:
As they're traveling along, have them roll Spot checks (DC 5).
Tell them they suspect there may be kobolds ducked down in the bushes up ahead, they can see their spears are sticking up.
PCs proceed to counter-ambush the hilarious failbolds.

[SowZ]

NOTE: Do not send a band of gnolls outnumbering the 1st level party two to one to raid their elven village. This is not a good idea.

As far as 1st level monsters taking advantage of their environment... Are you talking about kobolds setting tons of traps, goblins hiding high up in trees and surrounding them with volleys of arrows, or what? It all depends. But I would recommend doing things like this. Monsters should use tactics. In either scenario, as long as the party has ways to counter the strategies right off the bat, (a rogue for the traps/some ranged fighters for the goblins,) yeah, they should win if they play smart. At level one, the difference between casters and martial is less noticeable, anyway, so don't worry about it.

Make sure everyone can contribute and make a flexible plan for fighting the boss. If the players cream your encounter, have the boss come in right away for the tension of, "Wow, we sure showed the-HOLY CRAP!" OR if the fight really drained the party, give them a bit to hunt down the boss.

[Kefkafreak]

The only time I started a campaign at level 1 I pretty much gave them the first level for free. I made a town fair, which included several competitions which the characters could join (wizard duels, fistfights, whatever) so that they could practice the basics of combat. I'm not cruel enough to send them adventuring with 3 HP.

[SowZ]

The only time I started a campaign at level 1 I pretty much gave them the first level for free. I made a town fair, which included several competitions which the characters could join (wizard duels, fistfights, whatever) so that they could practice the basics of combat. I'm not cruel enough to send them adventuring with 3 HP.

But it can be so much fun when they see a group of 9 rats, then proceed to get knocked down so far they have to go back to town to recover...

[Undercroft]

i rather like kobolds. About 5-6, armed with clubs and two of them having flasks of acid. Then have 1 manage to escape (running away in terror as his buddies get slaughtered) to spread the tale of the party's strength (and setting up for a dragon if the PC's get cocky further down the line :P)

[Calimehter]

4 Gobbo warriors should be an easy fight for a group of 5 PCs, even with only 1-2 casters.

Having played a lot of low level campaigns, the one thing I will add is that the actual results on the die rolls are a much bigger deal than at mid to higher levels (since the bonuses to attack/AC/saves/etc. are so small compered to higher levels) so a few unlucky rounds of combat rolling by the PCs can cause even weak encounters to drain significant resources. Mobs of enemies get more chances to get lucky hits, even if they are lower level initially than a "boss" or single monster encounter would be. I don't know that I would be concerned about a TPK against 4 gobbos . . . but, since you mentioned that there would be an immediate "boss" encounter after this one, you might want to at least be prepared for the possibility that the BBEG you designed to be a 'good' fight against 5 slightly-weakened PCs may end up being overpowering if the gobbos get a few high d20 rolls in.

[Aharon]

If you don't let the monsters focus on one of the characters, you should be fine. Otherwise, you might get a PC death.


For fun, here are some slightly optimised kobold warriors, for use in packs of four. Their equipment is worth slightly more than the 300 gp a 1st level encounter should yield on average:

Melee Kobolds
Kobold Small Humanoid (Reptilian)
Hit Dice 1 hp: 4
Initiative: 2
Speed: 30 ft.
Armor Class: 17 (+1 dex+1 size+1 natural+4 scalemail), touch 12, flat-footed 16, flat-footed touch 11
Grpple/Melee/Ranged: -5/+5 Greatpick (1d8-1/x4), +0 bite (1d3/x2) /+5 sling (1d3 /x2)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Draconic Rite of Passage: Color Spray (on one of them)
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60ft., light sensitivity
Saves: Fort +2 Ref +2, Will +0
Abilities: Str 9, Dex 13, Con 10 Int 9, Wis 10, Cha 8
Skills: Hide +8 Move Silently +2 Intimidate +3
Feats: Swarmfighting
Treasure: Scale Mail, Greatpick

Ranged Kobolds
Kobold Small Humanoid (Reptilian)
Hit Dice 1 hp: 4
Initiative: 2
Speed: 30 ft.
Armor Class: 19 (+2 dex+1 size+1 natural+4 scalemail+1 buckler), touch 13, flat-footed 17, flat-footed touch 11
Grpple/Melee/Ranged: -5/+0 claw 1d3-2, +0 claw 1d3-2, -5 bite 1d3 -2/+5 light crossbow (1d6+1, 19-20/x2, 80ft.)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Draconic Rite of Passage: Obscuring Mist (on one of them)
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60ft., light sensitivity
Saves: Fort +2 Ref +2, Will +0
Abilities: Str 7, Dex 14, Con 11 Int 9, Wis 10, Cha 8
Skills: Hide +8 Move Silently +2 Intimidate +3
Feats: Combat Archery (delay to lowest, +2 attack, +1 damage)
Treasure Scale Mail, light crossbow, buckler

[Greenish]

Looking at the goblin monster entry on PF SRD, they've got good stealth, good initiative and decent attack with the shortbow. Using tactics, they'd ambush the PCs from range (60-120 ft.), probably from position hard to reach (elevation/difficult terrain to prevent charge, at least) and with cover, and focus fire at less armoured or otherwise weaker looking PCs first.

Even +4 (1d4/×3) attacks can bring first level characters down rather fast in volleys, should the goblins have luck of dice.


[Edit]: I don't know why I thought the OP was talking about PF.

[TwylyghT]

I don't like dumbing down kobolds or goblins as jobber fodder. 5-6 of either with tactical advantage should be a serious threat to a level 1 party. They are generally cowardly but never forget they are just as smart as your average human.

Ambushes, makeshift traps, making use of their size. For example a group of goblins who have take over a building may have filled a long hallway with upright tables and covered the tops with caltrops, and other debris making them difficult or impossible to climb over. Chased from the adjoining room after springing a makeshift ambush on a party of adventurers, the goblins could move normally down the hall, small enough to skitter under the tables, while any pursuers of medium size or larger either have to slow to a crawl or clear the hall. The last goblin to hit about the middle of the distance under the tables dumps one last bag of caltrops behind him, possible unnoticed in the dark.

The goblins having reached the next focal point to warn others, hide behind bigger monsters,to settle in where they have set up traps for just such an occasion, or any other scenario you devise really.

It's also a good lesson for adventurers, even well in to the mid levels. do NOT blindly chase after goblins. Oh... and don't tease that blue one in the back. He wont take it well...

[CTrees]

One thing to be aware of - high crit weapons can be brutal on a low level party. A orc farmer with a scythe can, with one lucky roll, end up insta-gibbing a level one character. Crits from monsters are a much bigger deal to everyone at level one.

[sreservoir]

It's also a good lesson for adventurers, even well in to the mid levels. do NOT blindly chase after goblins. Oh... and don't tease that blue one in the back. He wont take it well...

blues! almost never remembered, despite being +int at 0 LA!

[Flickerdart]

blues! almost never remembered, despite being +int at 0 LA!
LA1 - check your book. Probably the most pathetic LA1 monster there is.

[Greenish]

LA1 - check your book. Probably the most pathetic LA1 monster there is.Well, maybe sharing the honour with snow goblin.

[TwylyghT]

LA1 - check your book. Probably the most pathetic LA1 monster there is.

Yeah 3.5 made them weaker AND gave them LA1. Talk about rude.

[BenInHB]

Do you mean 4 monster with 1 class level??

4 Goblin Rogue1's taking advantage of the environment around them could really hurt the party bad. If they have had time to prepare, possibly a TPK.

At level 1 you are looking at characters with HP ranging from 2-18 (Wizard w/ 6CON to Barb with 18CON Raging). They have a BaB of 1 or 0 and little to no enhancements beyond base stats (even MW weapons are out of their price range) so +0 at the worst +5 at the best.

If the goblins have only 15AC (like standard MM ones) then the party has a 25-50% chance of hitting them. If they are using the environment for cover that drops to 10-35%

My suggestion is don't give the monsters class levels. 1 tougher monster is going to be easier for the party than a lot of weak monsters (more rolls is more dangerous at this point) Try to give the PC the chance to chose and control the battleground unless they are just charging in like idiots. At level 1 all the little bonuses really count. Get them using cover, flanking, elevation and even Aid actions.

[Greenish]

Do you mean 4 monster with 1 class level??Since he said "NPC-classed", I would presume he means that the monsters will have a level in NPC-class. :smallamused:

[BenInHB]

Great, a Warrior dip is even more dangerous than Rogue. Better HP, better BaB, pick the best 6 skills you want, sneak attack, Better weapon proficiency.

[Greenish]

Great, a Warrior dip is even more dangerous than Rogue. Better HP, better BaB, pick the best 6 skills you want, sneak attack, Better weapon proficiency.You seem to be confused as to what "NPC class" means. It means NPC classes presented in DMG. You know, Adept, Aristocrat, Commoner, Expert and Warrior.

Not PC classes, not the generic classes from UA. Just those five (and Eberron's magewright).


[Edit]: For extra clarity, here's the warrior NPC class (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/npcClasses/warrior.htm). Here's a sample goblin with one level in it (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/goblin.htm).

[NNescio]

Great, a Warrior dip is even more dangerous than Rogue. Better HP, better BaB, pick the best 6 skills you want, sneak attack, Better weapon proficiency.

What.

Warriors only have Climb/Handle Animal/Intimidate/Jump/Ride/Swim and no Sneak Attack. Granted, Handle Animal can be broken, but it's not as 'though the DM is going to abuse that.

[Greenish]

What.He's confusing NPC classes with generic classes from UA's alternative class system (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm).

[sreservoir]

LA1 - check your book. Probably the most pathetic LA1 monster there is.

actually, it's both LA +0 and LA +1 in the book -- the block says +0, as characters says +1. errata "fixes" it to +1, though, which is kind of annoying.

[BenInHB]

He's confusing NPC classes with generic classes from UA's alternative class system (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm).

Whoops, you're right. There is a big difference between Warrior and Warrior. Maybe they could have used different names.

[SowZ]

LA1 - check your book. Probably the most pathetic LA1 monster there is.

Hobgoblin sucks pretty bad, too. Unless you care about Charisma, they are significantly worse than the similar but better in every way Bugbear.

[Runestar]

Dungeonscape has an interesting dire rat variant which swaps in swarmfighting. A small horde of these buggers can really overwhelm the party with combined attack bonuses. :smallcool:

[Greenish]

Hobgoblin sucks pretty bad, too. Unless you care about Charisma, they are significantly worse than the similar but better in every way Bugbear.Except that bugbears come saddled with three of the weakest of all RHDs. Hobgoblins are way better by the simple expedient of not having any RHD. (Still very weak for +1 LA, though.)

[HunterOfJello]

The party walks into a silent and competely dark room. The door suddenly closes so they start yelling at eachother and the Wizard casts Light on a pebble in his hand. All of this has awakened the 30 housecats that were sleeping in the Crazy Cat Lady's house.

TPK time.

[SowZ]

Except that bugbears come saddled with three of the weakest of all RHDs. Hobgoblins are way better by the simple expedient of not having any RHD. (Still very weak for +1 LA, though.)

Oh, yeah, sometimes I forget that it is in the rules to count racial hit dice against you. (This is something the groups I've played with typically forgoe, as losing the level/XP gain that comes from it is usually brutal enough.)

I really think Hobgoblin could be played as a LA0 class by giving it a single -2. Make it wisdom or something. The fact that they have no real racial abilities would mostly counteract the second +2.

[Greenish]

Oh, yeah, sometimes I forget that it is in the rules to count racial hit dice against you. (This is something the groups I've played with typically forgoe, as losing the level/XP gain that comes from it is usually brutal enough.)That does have the result of making, say, bugbears straight up superior to hobgoblins, or ogres to half-ogres. RHD was something they (occasionally) accounted for when determining LA.

Wait, where do you lose levels if RHD are not counted against you? What does "counting RHD against you" mean? This is my confused face.

[SowZ]

That does have the result of making, say, bugbears straight up superior to hobgoblins, or ogres to half-ogres. RHD was something they (occasionally) accounted for when determining LA.

Wait, where do you lose levels if RHD are not counted against you? What does "counting RHD against you" mean? This is my confused face.

Sorry, I mean we just make LA simpler by treating the character as if they were one level higher, (for an LA 1,) and ignoring everything else, (like the negative effects for taking monstrous levels.) As far as the other races being less powerful, those can always be tweaked. Even with RHD accounted for, the LAs still have wide usefullness gaps.

For balance, I don't see it as much of an issue since a caster won't lose their spell levels for just about anything so it will be the martial characters that get the boost.

[sreservoir]

for martial characters, losing three levels for (admittedly weak) rhd isn't actually such a big deal, especially since they rarely seem to stick with one class anyway.

even dipping commoner 1 isn't really that much of a hit after surviving the level or two when you don't have quantized abilities.

[Greenish]

Sorry, I mean we just make LA simpler by treating the character as if they were one level higher, (for an LA 1,) and ignoring everything else, (like the negative effects for taking monstrous levels.)I'm sorry, I'm afraid I still don't follow. You what? Leave RHD out of ECL calculations and play LA as printed?

[SowZ]

I'm sorry, I'm afraid I still don't follow. You what? Leave RHD out of ECL calculations and play LA as printed?

Most DMs I've played under do that, anyway. And CR isn't used as much as just understanding the power level of the party and tailoring encounters based on that. If it is an LA+1, just treat the character as if they were one level higher and avoid all the book keeping.

[Greenish]

If it is an LA+1, just treat the character as if they were one level higher and avoid all the book keeping.That's what LA means. :smallconfused:

[SowZ]

That's what LA means. :smallconfused:

Yeah, I mean we treat their ECL and everything else that way, too.

[Greenish]

Yeah, I mean we treat their ECL and everything else that way, too.Now you lost me again. You treat their ECL how? What everything else?

[Edit]: Lets go over this so I might understand and gain peace.

Normal: ECL = lvl+LA+RHD.
Your system: ECL = lvl+LA?

[SowZ]

Now you lost me again. You treat their ECL how? What everything else?

[Edit]: Lets go over this so I might understand and gain peace.

Normal: ECL = lvl+LA+RHD.
Your system: ECL = lvl+LA?

Yeah, but since half the DMs I've had only keep loose track of XP, (me included,) it doesn't come into play too often. But we don't usually count RHD towards your level for purposes of XP needed to level up. To keep this fair, I've usually seen it work by giving everyone a LA race with bonus HD or else giving everyone a LA0 race.

[Greenish]

Ah, I see.


Back to level 1 encounters: Take climbdog from A&EG. It doesn't have a 1st level feat due to being 3.0. Give it Battle Jump. Have it wait in a tree for PCs to pass under. :smallamused: