Where would you keep your phylactery?

[SleepyBadger]

The question is exactly as the title says, dear Playgrounders. One of the main antagonists I created for my fairly high level campaign is a lich (cleric of Mask in his life and in his death, don't think Mask will mind...). So I want to be fair as usual and define in advance what kind of item the lich uses as a phylactery and what precautions he'd made for safekeeping.
So if you were the lich what would you do?

[faceroll]

I would make a giant vessel filled with quintessence. Inside I would place a warforged, whose composite plating was my phylactery. Before interring the warforged in the timeless chamber, I would cast Forced Dream on him.

The warforged cannot be accessed without draining the chamber of quintessence, as anything that tries to go swimming for him gets pulled out of the time stream. If the chamber is drained, the warforged wakes up, and Forced Dream finishes taking effect, reverting the entire timeline of reality to the point where I cast Forced Dream on the warforged.

Yaaay, time loop!

See more here about The Dream of Metal (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121334).

[ILM]

Step 1: Craft Phylactery. Something heavy yet innocuous, like a small piece of black rock. Buy an Immovable Rod, securely attach your phylactery to it (you could also make your phylactery into the rod itself, then paint it black).
Step 2: Cast Transformation of the Deeps on yourself, from Stormwrack. Alternatively, depending on your reading, Iron Body could work too.
Step 3: Teleport to a random place at the bottom of the deepest ocean (away from any settlements, if you have intelligent sea creatures in your world). Also, away from any active zones of tectonic activity. Bury your phylactery, activate the rod, we want to make sure it stays in place.
Step 4: Cast Mage's Private Sanctum on top of the area.
Step 5: Permanency it.

There. Phylactery hidden in a completely random place, unattainable by usual means, and impossible to scry on. We made sure neither currents nor soil movements are going to move it. The only way they could find it short of you telling them is combing through the ocean floor and trying to detect magic auras.

[SleepyBadger]

Uh, some great ideas here. Although I forgot to mention something: this is an FR surface setting, so psionics is out for the players and therefore might well be inaccessible for the lich as well (although he could hire some underdark guy...). Nevertheless timeloop sounds fine although I don't want anything completely broken. iLM's idea sounds great too but for the fact that you cannot actually teleport to a random place... how could that be achieved?

[Rei_Jin]

Here's a nice easy one.

Step 1: Create your Phylactery. Make it small.
Step 2: Get a Bag of Holding
Step 3: Cast Anti-magic field, and step into it with the Bag of Holding.
Step 4: Put your Phylactery inside the now non-magical bag. Close the bag
Step 5: Leave the Anti-magic field. When you open the bag, you cannot get to your Phylactery.

[ILM]

ILM's idea sounds great too but for the fact that you cannot actually teleport to a random place... how could that be achieved?
I meant random as in completely unremarkable. Just go to a place where the ocean is likely to be deep enough (I assume they don't have ocean floor maps :smalltongue:), drop a pebble or a ring or something, wait an hour for it to fall to the bottom then scry on it and teleport there.

[Yora]

I would put the phylactery into a large lead box together with a scroll of teleport and burry it somewhere in the middle of nowhere. Lich dies, reassembles next to the phylactery, uses the scroll to teleport out.
Just remember to never leave the box with no scrolls left.

[Parra]

Get a super valuble gem. Use Trap the Soul on it to trap something big and nasty in it (i.e. Great Wyrm Red dragon). Take your phylactery and using some magic doodads physically put it inside the TtS gem.

So even if they manage to find it, they now have to deal with a super angry big monster should they try to destroy it.

[faceroll]

Uh, some great ideas here. Although I forgot to mention something: this is an FR surface setting, so psionics is out for the players and therefore might well be inaccessible for the lich as well (although he could hire some underdark guy...). Nevertheless timeloop sounds fine although I don't want anything completely broken. iLM's idea sounds great too but for the fact that you cannot actually teleport to a random place... how could that be achieved?

Waking the world from the Dream of Metal may only reset the prime material. Any heroes that ended up successfully destroying the phylactery that were not doing so through proxy with an astral projection or dominated monsters would avoid the time loop. A thousand years of history could suddenly roll back before their eyes.

I'm not sure if returning to the Prime Material would result in time paradox or not. I don't think it would.

Another alternative would be that it'd be all Inception like, and the heroes would have to journey through the time paradoxes in the dreams of 108 slumbering automatons.

[SleepyBadger]

I meant random as in completely unremarkable. Just go to a place where the ocean is likely to be deep enough (I assume they don't have ocean floor maps :smalltongue:), drop a pebble or a ring or something, wait an hour for it to fall to the bottom then scry on it and teleport there.
I see, could work... wonder how it would be protected from divinations though... would divine minions know about this?

Here's a nice easy one.

Step 1: Create your Phylactery. Make it small.
Step 2: Get a Bag of Holding
Step 3: Cast Anti-magic field, and step into it with the Bag of Holding.
Step 4: Put your Phylactery inside the now non-magical bag. Close the bag
Step 5: Leave the Anti-magic field. When you open the bag, you cannot get to your Phylactery.
That's cheeky but doesn't work by the rules as bags of holding, portable holes etc 'fail closed' in an antimagic field. I still like the idea of the players having something in front of their eyes and not seeing it...

I would put the phylactery into a large lead box together with a scroll of teleport and burry it somewhere in the middle of nowhere. Lich dies, reassembles next to the phylactery, uses the scroll to teleport out.
Just remember to never leave the box with no scrolls left.
I think we can all safely assume that the lich will be dead and not reassembling for a few days when my players start looking for the phylactery...

Get a super valuble gem. Use Trap the Soul on it to trap something big and nasty in it (i.e. Great Wyrm Red dragon). Take your phylactery and using some magic doodads physically put it inside the TtS gem.

So even if they manage to find it, they now have to deal with a super angry big monster should they try to destroy it.
Cool :smallsmile: A guardian dragon (although if I was the dragon I would probably strike a deal with anyone who would listen to break the gem...).

...
Another alternative would be that it'd be all Inception like, and the heroes would have to journey through the time paradoxes in the dreams of 108 slumbering automatons.
I really love the idea of the destruction of the phylactery having an influence on time or the weave.. I mean a lich is serious business so the story should reflect that...

[magic9mushroom]

Inside a sentient demiplane that is loyal to me.

Of course, it would be better to make the demiplane itself my phylactery, but I don't think that can be done.

"Just as Sauron concentrated his power in the One Ring, Morgoth dispersed his power into the very matter of Arda, thus 'the whole of Middle-earth was Morgoth's Ring.'"

[noparlpf]

I would split my phylactery into seven pieces, hide them in various places with various guardians, and then use a human child as the last piece.
I totally just watched that new Harry Potter movie.

It would be an interesting twist if one of the party members were the phylactery. (That twist only works when you have a good or at least non-evil party.) Can living creatures be phylacteries?


Inside a sentient demiplane that is loyal to me.

Of course, it would be better to make the demiplane itself my phylactery, but I don't think that can be done.

"Just as Sauron concentrated his power in the One Ring, Morgoth dispersed his power into the very matter of Arda, thus 'the whole of Middle-earth was Morgoth's Ring.'"

Which book was that in?

[BobVosh]

That's cheeky but doesn't work by the rules as bags of holding, portable holes etc 'fail closed' in an antimagic field. I still like the idea of the players having something in front of their eyes and not seeing it...

Actually that is how it works. It becomes a nonmagical bag...so you can just put something into it. However it is easy to fix as one AMF or dispel magic later you got to it.

I have three favorite methods for this.
1) PAO it into a sand speck. Permanency whatever protection from divination you feel like. Permanency magic aura to make it appear non magical. Drop it into the desert.

2) PAO it into a child, twice. Switch this child with a ruler's child or anyone you feel like. Just works better if it is a princess. Laugh down your sleeve.

3) If you are high enough build a demiplane for it that noone can gate to, plane shift etc. Go there with it. Only leave via astral projection. To get your loot use secret chest a lot.

[ILM]

I would put the phylactery into a large lead box together with a scroll of teleport and burry it somewhere in the middle of nowhere. Lich dies, reassembles next to the phylactery, uses the scroll to teleport out.
Just remember to never leave the box with no scrolls left.
Interestingly, nowhere in the Lich entry does it say where they reappear, and more specifically it doesn't say it has to reappear near the phylactery.


I see, could work... wonder how it would be protected from divinations though... would divine minions know about this?
Mage's Private Sanctum blocks all Divination (scrying) spells. A thin layer of lead blocks Locate Object and the like. It's pretty much down to divine intervention then, and I suppose that could work (though I don't even know how you'd phrase your question if you wanted to use, say, Commune or Contact Other Plane considering they only yield simple one-word answers at best - and the item is in a completely nondescript bedrock, so good luck giving directions).

The only item I know that completely blocks any form of information gathering is a Third Eye Conceal from MIC, but it only works for the creature that wears it, and your phylactery is an object.

[CTrees]

iLM's idea sounds great too but for the fact that you cannot actually teleport to a random place... how could that be achieved?

Actually, Plane Shift to wherever, and then Plane Shift back to approximately where you want to drop your phylactery. Ta-da, instant randomization, by hundreds of miles. Repeat for further randomization, if you feel it's necessary.

I will point out that the problem with scrying protection is, it doesn't help with clever use of Contact Other Plane and the like. Partial protection is good, but only so good.

[only1doug]

Here's a nice easy one.

Step 1: Create your Phylactery. Make it small.
Step 2: Get a Bag of Holding
Step 3: Cast Anti-magic field, and step into it with the Bag of Holding.
Step 4: Put your Phylactery inside the now non-magical bag. Close the bag
Step 5: Leave the Anti-magic field. When you open the bag, you cannot get to your Phylactery.

nearly identical to what I was thinking.



That's cheeky but doesn't work by the rules as bags of holding, portable holes etc 'fail closed' in an antimagic field. I still like the idea of the players having something in front of their eyes and not seeing it...

Ok Try this for size:

Form your Phylactory into a Plaque stating "this Bag is the property of *Insert Legendary Hero's name here*, If found please return. reward offered".
cast a Permancied Misdirection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/misdirection.htm) on the Plaque to make it detect as Good instead of Evil.

Now take a Bag of Holding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bagofHolding)and Invert it.
Apply Sovereign Glue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#sovereignGlue) to the Phylactory and apply to the inside of the bag (leaving it looking like the Phlactory is a name Plaque).

Deposit your Bag of Holding / Phylactory within a inaccessable treasure vault with plenty of back up materials & Treasure (but nothing overtly evil). Even if someone finds your stuff they are unlikely to realise that the bag contains your phylactory. (and scrying for your phylactory returns a "Not on this plane" 404 unless it is done while the bag of holding is inverted).

Stocking the bag with a few essentials would also be sensible. Any type of Bag could be used as bones don't weigh much but I'd go for type 2 or 3, valuable and useful enough to be protected by any adventurers who find it but hopefully not remarkable.

[panaikhan]

This may sound a silly question, but what is a phylactery made of?
Can you make it out of anything?

If so...
Make it a potion, and have someone drink it.
Better still, make it a potion and leave it in your hoarde. Then one of the PC's will drink it :smallbiggrin:

[only1doug]

This may sound a silly question, but what is a phylactery made of?
Can you make it out of anything?

If so...
Make it a potion, and have someone drink it.
Better still, make it a potion and leave it in your hoarde. Then one of the PC's will drink it :smallbiggrin:


Details are here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm)

Basically a phylactory is what you want it to be, but why would you want it to be a potion and thus destroyed when consumed?

[noparlpf]

Details are here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm)

Basically a phylactery is what you want it to be, but why would you want it to be a potion and thus destroyed when consumed?

Make one of the PCs the phylactery. They will never see it coming.

[only1doug]

Make one of the PCs the phylactery. They will never see it coming.

I'm sure that you could achieve this, if you put in enough effort, but again why?

Would the PC's somehow not notice the regenerating lich growing out of their friend?

[panaikhan]

Details are here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm)

Basically a phylactory is what you want it to be, but why would you want it to be a potion and thus destroyed when consumed?

I was kinda thinking on the phylactery not being 'consumed' as a magical potion, more like it being contained / suspended in a liquid that could be drunk.

[noparlpf]

I'm sure that you could achieve this, if you put in enough effort, but again why?

Would the PC's somehow not notice the regenerating lich growing out of their friend?

"Dude, whoa. You've got a bit of a growth there... You should probably get that checked out. Now where did our cleric go...?"

No, no they wouldn't.

[magic9mushroom]

I would split my phylactery into seven pieces, hide them in various places with various guardians, and then use a human child as the last piece.
I totally just watched that new Harry Potter movie.

Aumvor's Shattered Phylactery is an epic spell. Cast it on your phylactery, you now have 1+Caster Level phylacteries.

You also have no players, since this can be cast any number of times and amounts to "you can't kill this guy unless I say so".


It would be an interesting twist if one of the party members were the phylactery. (That twist only works when you have a good or at least non-evil party.) Can living creatures be phylacteries?

Living creatures can't, but I don't see any reason your phylactery can't be intelligent, mobile, teleport-capable, and shoot laser beams.

(Yes, 343 Guilty Spark)


Which book was that in?

Morgoth's Ring, I believe. It's one of the collections of notes Christopher Tolkien published after JRR's death.

[noparlpf]

Aumvor's Shattered Phylactery is an epic spell. Cast it on your phylactery, you now have 1+Caster Level phylacteries.

You also have no players, since this can be cast any number of times and amounts to "you can't kill this guy unless I say so".



Living creatures can't, but I don't see any reason your phylactery can't be intelligent, mobile, teleport-capable, and shoot laser beams.

(Yes, 343 Guilty Spark)



Morgoth's Ring, I believe. It's one of the collections of notes Christopher Tolkien published after JRR's death.

That's a pity, but where does it say a living creature can't be a phylactery?

Yeah, I was thinking an intelligent item that could fly and had some kind of at-will plane shift ability. Shooting lasers just makes it even better.


Hmm, I've been meaning to read those books for a while. I think I have the Lays of Beleriand and one of the Books of Lost Tales.

[magic9mushroom]

That's a pity, but where does it say a living creature can't be a phylactery?

People aren't generally subject to the Craft Wondrous Item feat.


Yeah, I was thinking an intelligent item that could fly and had some kind of at-will plane shift ability. Shooting lasers just makes it even better.

Well, remember that intelligent items can use their own powers, and that they're creatures as well as items.


Hmm, I've been meaning to read those books for a while. I think I have the Lays of Beleriand and one of the Books of Lost Tales.

I haven't read Morgoth's Ring either.

[Tvtyrant]

I would go the simple route of putting my phylactery on the Positive Energy Plane by mind controlling a undeath (or whatever positive energy ghosts are called). Then I would have it place a fountain of Heal that turns on when you throw a coin in the well nearby. My phylactery would be a coin, so it would look like a travel destination for people with level loss or poisons.

[Psyren]

I'm sure that you could achieve this, if you put in enough effort, but again why?

Would the PC's somehow not notice the regenerating lich growing out of their friend?

Actually, the rules aren't clear on where the Lich reappears once destroyed. The Giant has gone with "the lich shows up near his phylactery" but he could just as easily reform wherever he was destroyed, wherever his lich ritual took place to begin with, or roll on a table or something.

In addition, just forming near the phylactery does not mean he comes out of it, so you won't necessarily have a party member with lich parts falling out of him.

[magic9mushroom]

Nice thing about sentient planes is that they have blanket "No" buttons.

[noparlpf]

People aren't generally subject to the Craft Wondrous Item feat.

I don't see a clause for that in either the PHB or the DMG. I think that's just an assumption that most people make. On the other hand, liches are evil. They do crazy, evil things, like enchanting human babies to be the vessels for their evil souls.

[SleepyBadger]

Hm quite a bunch of suggestions...
So first of all the party is high level but not epic yet. So epic level enemies would be too much even without the phylactery problem.
And I'm just that kind of DM who likes her party to eventually move forward so the destruction should finally be possible although it should require investigations, brainwork and maybe even some sacrifices from the party. But the whole scenario has to be believable, so the phylactery needs to be hidden cleverly.
I always assumed that liches reform near their phylacteries and I will stay with that assumption for now. That rules out hiding it on the positive material plane, I believe, although that would certainly be unexpected :P.

[only1doug]

Hm quite a bunch of suggestions...
So first of all the party is high level but not epic yet. So epic level enemies would be too much even without the phylactery problem.
And I'm just that kind of DM who likes her party to eventually move forward so the destruction should finally be possible although it should require investigations, brainwork and maybe even some sacrifices from the party. But the whole scenario has to be believable, so the phylactery needs to be hidden cleverly.

There's nothing better than having to fight the same Lich several times to motivate a party into locating the Phylactory. (the only time a group I have been with encountered a Lich we skipped the 2nd+ fights and started searching as our 1st priority).


I always assumed that liches reform near their phylacteries and I will stay with that assumption for now.

Its a reasonable (and very common) assumption, certainly the one I would use.


That rules out hiding it on the positive material plane, I believe, although that would certainly be unexpected :P.

Nope, Undead suffer no risks from the positive energy Plane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm) by RAW (although I personally would houserule otherwise). (fast healing does not injure undead)

[Quietus]

Hm quite a bunch of suggestions...
So first of all the party is high level but not epic yet. So epic level enemies would be too much even without the phylactery problem.
And I'm just that kind of DM who likes her party to eventually move forward so the destruction should finally be possible although it should require investigations, brainwork and maybe even some sacrifices from the party. But the whole scenario has to be believable, so the phylactery needs to be hidden cleverly.
I always assumed that liches reform near their phylacteries and I will stay with that assumption for now. That rules out hiding it on the positive material plane, I believe, although that would certainly be unexpected :P.

Actually, the positive energy plane is harmless to undead. It grants fast healing (not positive energy, just +hp), which accumulates until the target has to make a fort save or explode. Except undead are immune to anything that gives a fort save unless it affects objects, which this doesn't. The positive energy plane would be a great place to hide a phylactery.

[Psyren]

Nice thing about sentient planes is that they have blanket "No" buttons.

That depends. The Planar Vanguard (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20031219a) explicitly gets a nice one as its capstone - turning its psicrystal into one. The enterprising Psion can then put his Astral Seed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/astralSeed.htm) there, and voila - phylactery on a sentient demiplane.

[SleepyBadger]

I'd also like to point out that as a lich you would want to know exactly where your phylactery is. So masking its magical aura and turning it into a copper piece letting it circulate in a city is fine but no lich would ever take that risk. It could be eventually picked up by an adventurer who could fail his save against... well one of the few hundred spells that could destroy him along with his possesions.

Actually, the positive energy plane is harmless to undead. It grants fast healing (not positive energy, just +hp), which accumulates until the target has to make a fort save or explode. Except undead are immune to anything that gives a fort save unless it affects objects, which this doesn't. The positive energy plane would be a great place to hide a phylactery.
You're right fast healing actually doesn't harm undead. So that's settled then. At least we know the plane.

[Zale]

There is one Idea I have.

Basically, the Lich appears to have placed his phylactery in a remote fortress guarded by ferocious monsters and enough magic to make a sorcerer's teeth rattle. All divinations say not only that, but the exact room it is in. The PCs fight their way through this complicated trapped fortress, over come magical protections and slay the guardians.

Eventually they come up to the most protected room in the fortress. At the far end of the room, behind two large <mini-boss monsters of your choice>, they see the default form for a phylactery sitting on a pedestal. After a hard battle, they defeat them and manage to destroy the phylactery.

They then leave, content in the knowledge that the wicked lich is defeated.

Or so they think. The Lich knew that eventually someone would circumvent his defenses, so he placed something there so that people would assume the glowing object of power was his phylactery.

His real phylactery is a piece of stone imbedded in the wall.

Best part of this is, they won't even know they were wrong until the Lich comes back to rain a fiery vengance on them.

[Larpus]

If the Lich has some time under his belt, then I'd make my phylactery as something potentially vital to a whole community, such as a sun-like stone and give it to a LG or similar underground tribe (for example), this way not only the PCs will have a really hard time to get to it, but then they'll also have a very harsh moral question of whether destroy it or not (assuming they're mostly good fellas), since destruction does solve the kingdom's problem but will doom an entire race.

Something along these lines, I can see that you as the DM doesn't want to make an impossible scenario, otherwise the Lich is pretty much a walking game over screen, so making it really hard on the PCs from multiple standpoints seems to be the way to go.

[Marnath]

Something cool I remember from a previous version of this thread is, make your phylactery an engraving on the inside of some kid's skull. Raise the kid yourself and brainwash them so that when they're powerful enough, they become a lich too and make their phylactery an engraving inside your skull. Adventurers have to kill both of you to kill either of you. Technically when one of the pair is destroyed the others phylactery is too, but then the other lich regenerates and viola! you have your phylactery again.

[Amnestic]

I always assumed that liches reform near their phylacteries and I will stay with that assumption for now.

That is a fair assumption, though it poses problems if you reform bone-by-bone and the phylactery is on the move while you are not. At that point, you either decide that a) the lich reforms where it's phylactery first started reforming it, regardless of movement or b) the phylactery reforms piece-by-piece as it moves, leaving a long trail of bones behind it as it moves. :smalltongue:

[SleepyBadger]

I think you're all amazing :smallsmile: Yep, making them think they destroyed the phylactery will really annoy them... (:smallbiggrin:). And build it into the wall (probably combine it with the permanent Mage's Mansion idea...). I'm not sure the two-lich-combination would work (I think in this case the phylactery of the other lich would be destroyed even if the lich rematerializes, as the item is actually not part of his body...)
The idea of the item being necessary to a whole community is actually awesome, and I will definitely remember this the next time I run a good party... this one's unfortunately quite evil, so there would be no moral dilemmas...

[Merellis]

Make it into a gold tooth.

Next thing you know, you're materializing next to a sleeping bum who has a rather 'bright' smile.

Though I like the 7 parts idea, it just seems fun if you use original ideas for the tests and traps.

[CTrees]

People aren't generally subject to the Craft Wondrous Item feat.


That's a dirty, dirty lie, and I defy you to show me anywhere it the rules it says that.

You'll pry my Baby of Fireballs from my cold, undead hands!

[SleepyBadger]

...
Though I like the 7 parts idea, it just seems fun if you use original ideas for the tests and traps.
Me too although the player you pick as a phylactery may never talk to you again whatever the outcome... players tend to be picky about such things... and as it is questionable how it could work mechanically I'd rather save the idea for some other less deadly moment...

[CTrees]

Me too although the player you pick as a phylactery may never talk to you again whatever the outcome... players tend to be picky about such things... and as it is questionable how it could work mechanically I'd rather save the idea for some other less deadly moment...

But if you work it out with them ahead of time, they may love it. Find the one that loves roleplaying, and can do it well enough to not let out of character knowledge affect her in character play. Suddenly, the player feels special for the entire game, as opposed to feeling like she was unfairly killed at the last session. Just be very, very careful with your player selection.

[magic9mushroom]

That depends. The Planar Vanguard (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20031219a) explicitly gets a nice one as its capstone - turning its psicrystal into one. The enterprising Psion can then put his Astral Seed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/astralSeed.htm) there, and voila - phylactery on a sentient demiplane.

By "No" buttons, I mean that sentient demiplanes have a bunch of ways to negate attack. You can't kill one, you generally can't go there unless it wants you there, and if it wants you dead, you're dead.

That Planar Vanguard might actually be a way to do what I thought couldn't be done - if you make your psicrystal into your phylactery (Cerebremancer helps here), it then becomes a demiplane, which is, well, Morgoth's Ring. You need epic levels to do it, though (well, or Phaerimm).

EDIT: That isn't a Sentient demiplane according to the DMG definitions, you know.

[RedWarrior0]

You need to start with a cultist of Asmodeus who gets to serve protecting Baator's copy of the Pact Primeval (devils can't, for a reason I forget). You then must make a copy of the Pact Primeval into your phylactery. Congratulations. To get your phylactery, they must fight their way through Baator - all nine layers - then destroy an artifact which, when even removed from Baator would cause the forces of Law to crumble before Chaos. In fact, they might have to fight an Aspect of Asmodeus, and the Ruby Rod is the biggest "No" button in existence. Failing turning the Pact itself into a Phylactery, you could just have something else kept in the same location. This one requires Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells.

If you want something less intense, go for the Tomb of Horrors. Except remove the Sphere of Annihilation, put an alcove behind it with the phylactery, and return the Sphere of Annihilation to it's place.

Actually, instead of the Pact Primeval one, go to the bottom of the Styx with a bubble of air around you (the waters of the river Styx cause amnesia), then permanency the bubble at the bottom and create the phylactery. Then, place a contingent antimagic field on it so that if the phylactery is moved or someone enters the bubble (not counting you), it activates, flooding the area around the phylactery. If the Styx doesn't affect undead, dispel the bubble after you finish the phylactery, then find a way for a CL 20 Mass Heal to be contingent on the amulet being touched by someone other than you.

Another thing you can do is a contingent True Resurrection on yourself when you are destroyed and the phylactery no longer exists.

Seriously, contingency is great.

[CodeRed]

I don't remember all the exact specifics and this definitely doesn't work by RAW or RAI but if your the DM, your the DM ya dig?

Make your own Demiplane using Genesis or the like for a plane with a WAY SPED UP time factor from the Prime. Use Aumvor's Shattered Phylactery to make 2 Phylacteries. Then, Polymorph Any Object them into two Humans. Use the Epic Spell, Origin of Species to make them Humans for realsies or just cast PAO Twice. Tell them that you are God and that they are the first children you have created. They have kids (this is where DM powers come in as its not technically how this works) making Phylactery children. Fast forward a few thousand years and you have a full demiplane of perfectly innocent humanoids and EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM is a phylactery. If your party is a bunch of goodie-two-shoes this should really rock them as the only way to ensure the Lich's death is to destroy everyone on this demiplane which could easily be hundreds of thousands or millions.

Yes, this technically does not work by any rules interpretation but its just dripping with malevolence. You've got a super-powered Lich who has no problem sacrificing millions of lives that he helped create. As a twist, you could even have the Lich become sort of wicked parental figure committing as these evil deeds but over time has actually grown to love his "children" and will fight to protect them. Moral quandarys abound.

[UnholyPenance]

Well, going on the PC as a phylactery, it could work if one of your players is Warforged. I know they're living, but you might be able to make the phylactery out of a piece of the Warforged or just out of it in general.

[Ravens_cry]

I would sew a large gem of significant worth (but not a diamond) into my chest.
That is not my phylactory.
My phylactery is the tea set with which I have tea with an Elan and Warforged every few centuries, my two best friends in the world.
And they are my friends.
Only they know the true meaning of eternity.
Elves are killed or die, Gods fade as they are forgotten by mortals.
But with those two?
There is always something interesting to talk about. And if not?
Well, neither of us is afraid of Silence.
Sometimes we spend a few millennia watching the landscape shift around us, towns rising and falling, the scurrying of little creatures back and forth.
Amusing.

[opticalshadow]

well you own persoanly created plane with tons of cheese works but most dms will find a way to folly that, the next best thing is what gygax did with clones, and put them on a uninhabbited planet or moon in the solar system, again a dm may stop that (thought its harder for them to do it without plain being fussy becuase if you do it creates a serious, he cant get to it because it almost impossible to concider that without meta)

my favorite place to put it when the dm is a pain, is either deep in the ocean, with some nasty traps, and golems. or volcanos, which seem to work better with fewer things being able to get it. cast some decent spells on your self, create a small pocket in the magma or inside the walls or floor between lava and stone, make sure to divert lava around it so a digger would assume he broke into the main of it, leave just enough room for you to set up a protetvie bubble and it helps if you can keep a scroll of teleport safe.

ive once disguesed my phalac as a common peice of jewlery (a bit high quality so it wouldnt be discarded but not enough to warrent much attention) and sold it to a merchent, you never know where exactly youll respawn, but its actually pretty safe (as most bbegs dont seem to spend much time breaking into commoners houses)

and lastly ive had sucess with sneaking into a dragons lair, it was a plain rock, so i just kinda tossed it in a corner. hidden in plain sight with all the magical gear and wealth it seemd liek a good idea (though that was one of the few times i actually died and came back, and was quite difficult to not get killed by the dragon, cost me quite abit of my rainy day treasure, still, a great body guard for it.

[Anderlith]

Make it something small & hard (adamantine cube or such) & toss it in the Tarrasque's mouth.

Make it a pebble & toss it in the ocean

Personally I'd make it a belt, a really really cool looking belt. Seriously who considers a belt useful? The party won't think to examine it. (As long as you hide the magical aura)

OR I'd make it the skull of the princess that I kidnapped/killed & resurrected (after making her skill my phylactery) Sprouting from the head of the princess is a great way to make an entrance later. & I could scry on those around her like the king

[Telok]

Too much work going on here. Get a safety deposit box at the bank.

[deuxhero]

What? No Negative Energy Plane?

[Reaver225]

Step 1: Make phylactery. Doesn't matter what out of.

Step 2: Convince another lich that two phylacteries are better hidden together and better defended by two liches than a single phylactery by one lich each (the trickiest step)

Step 3: Repeat step 2 on another lich.

Step 5468: The First Grand Phylactery Bank has upgraded its services for a complete demiplane, with at least 500 liches serving as guards at any one time, hordes of undead, golems, fiendish traps, protection from everything, with waiting rooms and comforts for liches who are regenerating (magical gear is provided at very competitive rates for those who want to get back to their home planes for revenge!) and business is booming.

All you need to enter your own phylactery into the bank is to be a lich, and either provide a few years every now and again, or provide some defenses, like innovative traps, servants of your own, or anything else like this! You're amongst friends here - or at least other liches with almost the same goal in mind!




Can the party's rogue break into the dreaded Lich Bank and pull off the biggest heist in the planes?!

[Silus]

I'm gonna parrot the phylactery Soul Trap idea, but instead replace the Great Red Wyrm with the Tarrasque.

Or make the phylactery something so fething huge it can't be destroyed without seriously upsetting the ecology, political structure and geography of a world. Like a mountain. Sure, you can carve it out, but that wouldn't destroy it. You'd need some heavy duty spells to level it, and the risks would outweigh the consequences (ticking off druids, elementals, dwarves, opening so many holes into the underdark, ect. ect.).

[BlueInc]

Phylacteries can be rings, right? Make it one ring in a suit of +5 Chain Armor. Put the armor on a statue.

[Occasional Sage]

The question is exactly as the title says, dear Playgrounders. One of the main antagonists I created for my fairly high level campaign is a lich (cleric of Mask in his life and in his death, don't think Mask will mind...). So I want to be fair as usual and define in advance what kind of item the lich uses as a phylactery and what precautions he'd made for safekeeping.
So if you were the lich what would you do?

Give the thing to Mask. Gods want to keep beefy clerics around, after all.

Before people complain about "the PCs can't get it that way": first, that's the whole point from the lich's POV and second, turn it into a major plot arc drafting help and such. Just cuz they can't break skulls to win doesn't mean they CAN'T win.


I don't see a clause for that in either the PHB or the DMG. I think that's just an assumption that most people make. On the other hand, liches are evil. They do crazy, evil things, like enchanting human babies to be the vessels for their evil souls.

Yeah, but then doesn't your phylactery have a very short shelf life? Why be immortal if it's only safe for 100 years?

Unless your phylactery's name is Berem, but we all know the extra problems with that kind of trick.

[Ksheep]

Two ideas:

1. Make your phylactery into a cup of water. Pour the water into the ocean. Good luck finding and destroying all of it!

2. Make the moon into your phylactery. Even if they CAN get to it, destroying it will probably rain debris across the world, killing everything.

[Taelas]

I don't see a clause for that in either the PHB or the DMG. I think that's just an assumption that most people make. On the other hand, liches are evil. They do crazy, evil things, like enchanting human babies to be the vessels for their evil souls.

Maybe idiot liches do, but competent liches do not make their phylacteries subject to disease, aging, and y'know, dying.

The best way I know of is a double-blind.

Get two bags of holding.

Put your phylactery inside one, along with whatever resources you want with you when you regenerate (like a scroll of plane shift).

Go into an anti-magic field. Put the bag containing your phylactery into the second bag. Step out of the anti-magic field. Use the bag of holding as a regular bag of holding.

Whoever killed you cannot possibly get to the phylactery without opening the second bag inside an anti-magic field, finding the first bag, stepping out of the anti-magic field, and opening the first bag. Of course, neither can you.

Ksheep, you cannot make water into a phylactery. One of the few requirements for a phylactery is that it must have magical symbols -- symbols which also unfortunately identifies it as a phylactery to anyone with the knowledge. Those symbols are what makes a phylactery a phylactery, according to Libris Mortis.

[Ksheep]

Ksheep, you cannot make water into a phylactery. One of the few requirements for a phylactery is that it must have magical symbols -- symbols which also unfortunately identifies it as a phylactery to anyone with the knowledge. Those symbols are what makes a phylactery a phylactery, according to Libris Mortis.

Hmm… guess I haven't read up on all the non-core phylactery stuff. Next question: how big must said magical symbols be? If you could somehow make them small enough to be "written" on a single water molecule…

[Herabec]

I'd take it to the bank and put it in my safety deposit box, and keep the key to it on a keychain that has way, way too many keys for any logical purpose.

Simple, and they'd never expect it. *nods* Silly adventurers, looking all over the planes.

-edit-

Darn, already done. *shakes fist at Telok*

[magic9mushroom]

I'd take it to the bank and put it in my safety deposit box, and keep the key to it on a keychain that has way, way too many keys for any logical purpose.

Simple, and they'd never expect it. *nods* Silly adventurers, looking all over the planes.

-edit-

Darn, already done. *shakes fist at Telok*

Since Harry Potter did this, awareness of it has grown considerably.

[Anderlith]

Why have just one phylactery why not 6? Seven is an important number. & to have your soul split into seven parts should give you so extra power...:smallamused:

You could make one a diary, one a locket, a chalice, a tiara, a ring, & why not a big snake phylactery familiar?:smalltongue:

[Xanmyral]

Make your self immune to fire. Make your phylactery immune to fire. Chain-Teleport to the sun. The middle of the sun, that is. Drop it off, teleport back. Good luck trying to retrieve that adventurers.

[Midnight_v]

Make your self immune to fire. Make your phylactery immune to fire. Chain-Teleport to the sun. The middle of the sun, that is. Drop it off, teleport back. Good luck trying to retrieve that adventurers.

Hmm... I do like that oddly. I mean. Yeah something right about that. . . as long as you're immune to fire. Kinda vague I presume the sun isn't the habitat of hostile fire elementals then.

[Ravens_cry]

Two ideas:

1. Make your phylactery into a cup of water. Pour the water into the ocean. Good luck finding and destroying all of it!

One word: Photosynthesis. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photosynthesis)
Look at that reaction. In the process, water becomes something else, sugar and oxygen. It would take a while, but eventually your phylactery no longer exists, destroyed.

[DM12]

if he is a cleric why not make his holy symbol his phylactery only with a few abjurations on it

[big teej]

Here's a nice easy one.

Step 1: Create your Phylactery. Make it small.
Step 2: Get a Bag of Holding
Step 3: Cast Anti-magic field, and step into it with the Bag of Holding.
Step 4: Put your Phylactery inside the now non-magical bag. Close the bag
Step 5: Leave the Anti-magic field. When you open the bag, you cannot get to your Phylactery.

I like this idea immensly.

[Taelas]

I like this idea immensly.

Unfortunately, using just one bag of holding isn't enough. If you regenerate where your phylactery is, you break the bag in the process (and alert whoever has it to your whereabouts... before you're done regenerating).

Put it in a second bag of holding (in the regular way) and put that second bag of holding into the first one in an anti-magic field. That way, you get the exact same effect, except you're safe in an extra-dimensional space.

[Hidden_Blade11]

That's a dirty, dirty lie, and I defy you to show me anywhere it the rules it says that.

You'll pry my Baby of Fireballs from my cold, undead hands!

This.

This is pure win :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Also my favourite phylac place would be a male adventurer's... private... part... XD. just for the pain of that simple choice: kill the lich and save the world but lose your manhood. Muahahahahah

[noparlpf]

Why have just one phylactery why not 6? Seven is an important number. & to have your soul split into seven parts should give you so extra power...:smallamused:

You could make one a diary, one a locket, a chalice, a tiara, a ring, & why not a big snake phylactery familiar?:smalltongue:

I suggested that on, like, the first page.
I also suggested making one of the party members into your last phylactery somehow.

[Reaver225]

Make your self immune to fire. Make your phylactery immune to fire. Chain-Teleport to the sun. The middle of the sun, that is. Drop it off, teleport back. Good luck trying to retrieve that adventurers.


Bags of holdings shenanigans


The trouble with all of these is that if you don't make your phylactery scryproof people can find it without too much difficulty. Your phylactery's in the sun?

What stops people from gaining their own fire immunity and retrieving your soul-holder from the sun just as easily?

What stops people from planeshifting to the interdimensional space and just nabbing it? A high enough caster check can bust through any scry protection, and then it's just a teleport/other dimensional magic to get there. Why are there no more physical defenses in place?

[Sception]

Keep it on me. Just carry it around, like on a necklace or something. What?

[MesiDoomstalker]

Make your self immune to fire. Make your phylactery immune to fire. Chain-Teleport to the sun. The middle of the sun, that is. Drop it off, teleport back. Good luck trying to retrieve that adventurers.

I think your forgetting the immense gravitational pull the sun will have when your on its "surface." Even if you could survive such pressure and maintain control over your body (an immense strength score wouldbe neccisary) your phlactery would need to be able to do so as well. Ya I know your a lich and immortal, blah blah blah, but if you regenerate into hosile conditions such as the sun's "surface" you will just "die" and regenerate endlessly. You may still be unalive but your taken out of the picture. I don't think you could beat a concentration check of 1000000d6 to cast a plane shift.

On topic, make it a part in a massive machine/forge in a major Dreugar city. If said part is destroyed, the city would be engulfed in lava because the machine/forge is the power source for the city by utilizitng lava veins. Without the machine/forge being active, the lava veins will overflow the containment trenches and flood the city. So of course such a machine/forge will be heavily gaurded by the Druegars who are already rather hostile to outsiders. Make your players work to find the phlactery. Even if they make it to the machine part, and destroy it, they then have to escape the underground city thats being flooded with lava. A city wide Dimensional Anchor placed by the city as protection that is still in effect would be completly appropriate. Can't have any pesky Drow teleporting in and destorying their city.

[Taelas]

What stops people from planeshifting to the interdimensional space and just nabbing it? A high enough caster check can bust through any scry protection, and then it's just a teleport/other dimensional magic to get there. Why are there no more physical defenses in place?

What stops people from plane shifting to the nondimensional space is the fact that it is not possible to do so. The space does not exist within a plane, but outside of them. Even if you disregard that, in order to plane shift, you need to use a focus, which must be tuned to the plane in question -- a forked metal rod. There is absolutely no reason why any such focus would exist for the space in the bag.

The only way into the extra-dimensional space is through the bag of holding.

Also, scrying is not an instant tell-all. You would not be able to discover its location merely through scrying, unless you see the lich remove the phylactery from the bag of holding in question, and there's no reason for him to do that. How exactly would you know where the phylactery is in order to plane shift to it?

[Raimun]

I would make the lich's phylactery to be one of the dice the game is played with. Talk about metagaming.

[Reaver225]

What stops people from plane shifting to the nondimensional space is the fact that it is not possible to do so. The space does not exist within a plane, but outside of them. Even if you disregard that, in order to plane shift, you need to use a focus, which must be tuned to the plane in question -- a forked metal rod. There is absolutely no reason why any such focus would exist for the space in the bag.

The only way into the extra-dimensional space is through the bag of holding.Both good points. Does it protect from when someone disjunctions or destroys the bag of holding? Would that not destroy everything within it, or leave it "lost forever" as it says?

Alternately, I would say while a focus might not exist immediately, would it not be possible to create such a focus after experiencing the lich's magic and having scried on the nondimensional plane/space in question?


Also, scrying is not an instant tell-all. You would not be able to discover its location merely through scrying, unless you see the lich remove the phylactery from the bag of holding in question, and there's no reason for him to do that. How exactly would you know where the phylactery is in order to plane shift to it?

This one's easy. You've met the lich, killed him (re-killed? Deanimated?) and realised he's come back from death because of a phylactery (or are smart enough to know he has one). While the lich is regenerating, it's safe to say his location is at his phylactery, yes? Scry on the lich, bam, you know where the demiplane is. While he has a +5 willpower bonus from being on another plane, he also has a -10 from the scryer having his old skull/bones to use to scry with. As he's just been destroyed and has no equipment, he can't use mind blank or anything on him (barring very epic magical effects).

If the heroes can't beat that will save, Discern Location should find the lich, or if nothing else, a Wish spell can:
"Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies."

Right to the location of the phylactery. -But then, wish is kind of cheating, so perhaps forget that last bit.

[TheRinni]

I'd make my phylactery a simple, gold coin. I'd then keep it in my purse, my treasure trove, or just go out and buy something with it.

Also, scrying is not an instant tell-all. You would not be able to discover its location merely through scrying, unless you see the lich remove the phylactery from the bag of holding in question, and there's no reason for him to do that. How exactly would you know where the phylactery is in order to plane shift to it?
Yup. To quote the SRD:

You can see and hear some creature, which may be at any distance. If the subject succeeds on a Will save, the scrying attempt simply fails. The difficulty of the save depends on how well you know the subject and what sort of physical connection (if any) you have to that creature. Furthermore, if the subject is on another plane, it gets a +5 bonus on its Will save. You can't scry for an object.

[Reaver225]

You can't scry for an object.You'd be scrying for the lich, which is by the phylactery, though.

[Taelas]

Both good points. Does it protect from when someone disjunctions or destroys the bag of holding? Would that not destroy everything within it, or leave it "lost forever" as it says?
Exactly happens to the contents of a destroyed is a question for the individual GM; the book states it is "lost forever", but that does not take into account effects which could bring you to the space before the bag is destroyed (such as regenerating next to the phylactery). If everything inside is destroyed, on the other hand, yes, that is a risk.

But why would they destroy a perfectly serviceable bag of holding? The idea is that they should not even know there is a second bag inside the first.


Alternately, I would say while a focus might not exist immediately, would it not be possible to create such a focus after experiencing the lich's magic and having scried on the nondimensional plane/space in question?
There are no rules for creating the focus, thus that is entirely up to the GM. Note that according to the rules of the spell, you materialize at least 5 miles away from your location. What happens when the plane you plane shift to is smaller than that is left up to the GM.


This one's easy. You've met the lich, killed him (re-killed? Deanimated?) and realised he's come back from death because of a phylactery (or are smart enough to know he has one). While the lich is regenerating, it's safe to say his location is at his phylactery, yes? Scry on the lich, bam, you know where the demiplane is. While he has a +5 willpower bonus from being on another plane, he also has a -10 from the scryer having his old skull/bones to use to scry with. As he's just been destroyed and has no equipment, he can't use mind blank or anything on him (barring very epic magical effects).
This is why you place a spellbook into the bag of holding as well.

Regardless, you can prepare permanent anti-scrying measures inside the extra-dimensional space. The bag of holding is essentially a nigh-impregnable retreat that no one knows exists besides yourself. You have of course also filled it with some kind of gas besides oxygen (which you do not need, being undead). While easy to overcome, it's another obstacle.


If the heroes can't beat that will save, Discern Location should find the lich, or if nothing else, a Wish spell can:
"Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies."

Right to the location of the phylactery. -But then, wish is kind of cheating, so perhaps forget that last bit.
Wish still needs you to know where you're going.

Discern location is beaten by mind blank, and you cannot use it to find the phylactery -- unless you somehow managed to touch it.

[Quietus]

You'd be scrying for the lich, which is by the phylactery, though.

Only works if they regenerate Xykon-style. What if they just pop into existence after 1d10 days, and can teleport away after that?

[TheRinni]

You'd be scrying for the lich, which is by the phylactery, though.

That's only particularly revealing if your phylactery is the only thing in the general area. At best, it tells you what room your phylactery is in.

Also, I would assume that a Lich would have defenses against divination spells within his keep. I think an all-powerful wizard who has defeated death, would be aware of the dangers this 4th level spell might cause.

[Ksheep]

I'd make my phylactery a simple, gold coin. I'd then keep it in my purse, my treasure trove, or just go out and buy something with it.

And then when the gold piece ends up in a port city and they decide to smelt it down to be made into gold bars for easier transport…

[noparlpf]

I think someone mentioned this, but:
Make a grain of sand show up as nothing but an ordinary grain of sand when scried on. (If it just didn't show up, that would be a suspicious grain of sand.)
Drop it in the ocean.

[TheRinni]

And then when the gold piece ends up in a port city and they decide to smelt it down to be made into gold bars for easier transport…

Even better. I've actually talked this idea over with two of my favorite DMs, and this was an idea that came up. All three of us agreed that this isn't actually destroying the gold, and thus, the phylactery. It's just reshaping it. If I made my phylactery a piece of clay, it wouldn't be destroyed by someone forming it into a clay doll.

[Taelas]

Actually, yes, it would (though I am unsure if you would be able to reshape a phylactery made of clay, as it becomes a magical object).

A phylactery must have symbols on it to be a phylactery. If those symbols are destroyed, the phylactery is broken.

[TheRinni]

A phylactery must have symbols on it to be a phylactery. If those symbols are destroyed, the phylactery is broken.
Where is this rule? I was unable to find it in the Monster Manual - which is the only book I know to contain information on Lichs. It only states:

An integral part of becoming a lich is creating a magic phylactery in which the character stores its life force. As a rule, the only way to get rid of a lich for sure is to destroy its phylactery. Unless its phylactery is located and destroyed, a lich reappears 1d10 days after its apparent death.

Each lich must make its own phylactery, which requires the Craft Wondrous Item feat. The character must be able to cast spells and have a caster level of 11th or higher. The phylactery costs 120,000 gp and 4,800 XP to create and has a caster level equal to that of its creator at the time of creation.

The most common form of phylactery is a sealed metal box containing strips of parchment on which magical phrases have been transcribed. The box is Tiny and has 40 hit points, hardness 20, and a break DC of 40.

Other forms of phylacteries can exist, such as rings, amulets, or similar items.
In every game I've played in, Phylacteries have had to be destroyed by some sort of magic. Physical changes to the object have never accomplished anything.

EDIT:
While I was unable to find anything regarding a requirement for symbols, I was able to find statistics for a phylactery in Libris Mortis:
size Tiny,hp 40, hardness 20, break DC 40. As a magic item, it receives saving throws against magical effects that can affect objects.Its saving throw bonuses are equal to 2 + 1/2 the creator’s caster level at the time of creation (or, if the phylactery is held or worn, equal to the wearing creature’s save bonuses, if higher). Since it does have a physical break DC, we can assume that physical changes would harm it.

[Taelas]

Where is this rule? I was unable to find it in the Monster Manual - which is the only book I know to contain information on Lichs. It only states:
It is in Libris Mortis -- page 151, to be specific. It repeats some of what you quoted, then goes on to state that phylacteries can have other forms, but that they must have arcane inscriptions on them.



In every game I've played in, Phylacteries have had to be destroyed by some sort of magic. Physical changes to the object have never accomplished anything.
A phylactery can be broken just as any other item. It has a hardness, hit points, and a break DC. It does not require magic.

[SowZ]

It is in Libris Mortis -- page 151, to be specific. It repeats some of what you quoted, then goes on to state that phylacteries can have other forms, but that they must have arcane inscriptions on them.



A phylactery can be broken just as any other item. It has a hardness, hit points, and a break DC. It does not require magic.

Most liches are going to place enough enchantments and abjurations on it to keep it from being broken by physical means, though.

[TheRinni]

It is in Libris Mortis -- page 151, to be specific. It repeats some of what you quoted, then goes on to state that phylacteries can have other forms, but that they must have arcane inscriptions on them.

A phylactery can be broken just as any other item. It has a hardness, hit points, and a break DC. It does not require magic.

Fair enough, fair enough. However, I would still use my coin phylactery. In anyone else's game, I would keep it in a huge vault of identical coins and various treasures. In my, or my friend's games, I would just buy something with it. We don't use the Libris Mortis supplement. xD
Most liches are going to place enough enchantments and abjurations on it to keep it from being broken by physical means, though. This is also a point worth noting.

[Fitz10019]

A framed sign on the wall: "Liches do it forever."
Under glass, but it's not glass, it's permanently invisible lead. The sign is the phylactery, with the symbols on the back.

[RedWarrior0]

I still maintain that an artifact integral to the gods themselves - one of the three original copies of the Pact Primeval - is the best phylactery. I also say that, if an unbreakable artifact won't work - whether because you can't get access to it for that long or whatever - this is what is best:

Use Genesis to create a demiplane in which ten days is a millisecond of real world time: this means that you nigh-instantly regenerate if destroyed.
Place a Contingent Spell on the phylactery (or you?) so that if it is destroyed, it automatically casts True Resurrection on you. In addition, with Craft Contingent Spell shenanigans, make it Plane Shift you to the demiplane then Greater Teleport you to a spot in the demiplane always prepared with sufficient food and other resources to create another one with the same precautions. Because, once True Resurrection activates, you're an ordinary human or whatever race you were before.

[Zale]

But does Genesis allow you to control the flow of time in your created demi-plane?

I think I saw someone mention that before.. :smallconfused:

[Addi]

... unless you see the lich remove the phylactery from the bag of holding in question, and there's no reason for him to do that.

With all the Diplomancers around here you could convince him that you've somehow stolen his phylactery. Then watch him... closely.

Personally I would allow a lich to craft his phylactery only out of an object of personal value. (Skull of long lost love, etc.) It should not be possible to bound parts of your soul to a thing that doesn't even matter to you.

[Taelas]

With all the Diplomancers around here you could convince him that you've somehow stolen his phylactery. Then watch him... closely.
That would be Bluff, not Diplomacy... Diplomacy would improve his attitude.
Bluff could not convince him of something he knows is not true, though. That is not how the skill works (Haley notwithstanding). He would simply smirk and say, "Really? Where was it, then?"

Unless he'd rather just outright attack, of course.


Personally I would allow a lich to craft his phylactery only out of an object of personal value. (Skull of long lost love, etc.) It should not be possible to bound parts of your soul to a thing that doesn't even matter to you.
It's magic. Why should it not be possible?

[MesiDoomstalker]

I want to point people back to the orginal post and note that the Lich in question is a CLERIC! So, barring assistinence from a friendly Wizard or Psion, no arcane spells or psionic powers. Just the Cleric list.

[Reaver225]

That would be Bluff, not Diplomacy... Diplomacy would improve his attitude.
Bluff could not convince him of something he knows is not true, though. That is not how the skill works (Haley notwithstanding). He would simply smirk and say, "Really? Where was it, then?"
Something on the lines of "Oh, we scryed for it, worked out it wasn't on this plane. After that, we called in a few favours and sent a group of inevitables after it. I'd show you the pieces but they ground it up so finely there's just this dust here-!"

And show the dust from something with residual magical aura on it.


Wish still needs you to know where you're going.

Discern location is beaten by mind blank, and you cannot use it to find the phylactery -- unless you somehow managed to touch it.With wish, you teleport to the lich's phylactery. The wish does the rest (though some precautions might be in order, like ensuring you're not jumping into the middle of the sun or so on). Or, two wishes, if you want to locate the phylactery first.

The thing is, mind blank won't be active on the lich after you destroy it, and it literally can't have any equipment equipped while regenerating (where exactly would it keep it while just two bones?), so therefore is a valid target for Discern Location. Though again, there may be some issues about magically crafted area of effect permanent mind blanks there, though. Dunno if there'd be an artifact like that. And again, whether a lich in the process of renewal counts as a valid scry target is another question.

[BenInHB]

Make the phylactery into a small British boy with glasses and a scar on his forehead

[Taelas]

Something on the lines of "Oh, we scryed for it, worked out it wasn't on this plane. After that, we called in a few favours and sent a group of inevitables after it. I'd show you the pieces but they ground it up so finely there's just this dust here-!"

And show the dust from something with residual magical aura on it.
Can't scry for objects. Also, he would know that Inevitables can't get to it any more than you can, so it's not really gonna convince him.


With wish, you teleport to the lich's phylactery. The wish does the rest (though some precautions might be in order, like ensuring you're not jumping into the middle of the sun or so on). Or, two wishes, if you want to locate the phylactery first.
Even if you could do it with one wish (you can't; the spell specifies a location, and "the lich's phylactery" isn't one), the lich could have protections against teleportation inside the bag of holding.


The thing is, mind blank won't be active on the lich after you destroy it, and it literally can't have any equipment equipped while regenerating (where exactly would it keep it while just two bones?), so therefore is a valid target for Discern Location. Though again, there may be some issues about magically crafted area of effect permanent mind blanks there, though. Dunno if there'd be an artifact like that. And again, whether a lich in the process of renewal counts as a valid scry target is another question.
No, it is not in question at all. The lich has only regenerated after 1d10 days, and only once he has regenerated is he a creature, thus a valid target for discern location or scrying (and since you have not touched the regenerated bones, you cannot use the object version either). You would have to catch him after he regenerates but before he protects himself via mind blank. Considering that he can easily have a use-activated item of mind blank lying ready in the bag of holding for that specific purpose, you don't have a great shot.

[Slipperychicken]

Make the phylactery into a small British boy orphan with glasses and a scar on his forehead

Try to make the PCs morally conflicted about killing a random orphan.... only to realize the PC is the orphan...

[magic9mushroom]

Make your self immune to fire. Make your phylactery immune to fire. Chain-Teleport to the sun. The middle of the sun, that is. Drop it off, teleport back. Good luck trying to retrieve that adventurers.

Crushing damage destroys it instantly.

The sun's core is under high pressure.


if he is a cleric why not make his holy symbol his phylactery only with a few abjurations on it

Because that defeats the point, since anyone who defeats you will get your phylactery instantly.



Incidentally, @everyone who wants to scry on a lich's phylactery or on the lich:

Intelligent phylactery (via Item Familiar or the hard way) with Mind Blank 2/day (once for itself, once for you the moment you regenerate). GG.

[Acanous]

I always liked the idea that the phylactery is a lich's favorite lucky coin. It's in his treasure with all his other coins, with a small illusion to hide the magic aura. The lich regenerates inside the PC's bag of Holding XD

[gkathellar]

Your phylactery should be a gold piece. One gold piece, standard unit of currency. Is there a way to fool detect magic I'm forgetting? If so, use that, ward it against scrying, and install a contingency to teleport it back to you in case anyone tries to melt it down or something.

Now buy something with it in a major city. Bam, no one is ever, ever tracking down your phylactery. Not even you.

(And on the off-chance that an adventurer get a hold of it, they'll fall into a moral crisis: give up a gold piece? Unthinkable!)

[noparlpf]

I always liked the idea that the phylactery is a lich's favorite lucky coin. It's in his treasure with all his other coins, with a small illusion to hide the magic aura. The lich regenerates inside the PC's bag of Holding XD

Great plan, but last time somebody showed up in a party member's Bag of Holding, he cast Ethereal Jaunt, not realizing where he was.
That sure was fun.

[flabort]

Something cool I remember from a previous version of this thread is, make your phylactery an engraving on the inside of some kid's skull. Raise the kid yourself and brainwash them so that when they're powerful enough, they become a lich too and make their phylactery an engraving inside your skull. Adventurers have to kill both of you to kill either of you. Technically when one of the pair is destroyed the others phylactery is too, but then the other lich regenerates and viola! you have your phylactery again.

A variant on this: there's a feat that lets you have a fragmented Phylactery, so the adventurers have to destroy seven phylacteries, Harry Potter style.
Thing is, there's Seven other Lichs who were your "friends" back in Evil Wizard/Cleric school, or whatever. Your Phylactery in inscribed on one of each of their Earbones. Each of them also have this feat, and seven of your bones are one of their Phylacteries.
The players have to kill 8 liches in 1d10 days (And the odds that the DM rolls low on one of the regen times are high), and if they forget to destroy ALL the bones after killing one lich, there's a chance one of the bones is one with a phylactery on it.

Or, as a contingency, there's only 7 Lichs, and each has an actual "classic Phylactery" that they've put in the Grand Phylactery Bank (Late page 1 or early page 2?).
Or even more evil, the liches who are your phylactery don't have you as a phylactery, but even more lichs, who have other lichs as phylacterys, who have you and even more lichs as phylacteries, Lather, Rinse, Repeat. That way, a group of 70+ lichs could all have assurance, that if they don't regenerate in 1d10 days, their phylacteries will, and if those don't, the phylacteries that let them regen will.

But the real hard part is getting more than one lich to be one of your phylacteries. If the trend catches, though, one may ask you to be it's phylactery.

[Qwertystop]

A variant on this: there's a feat that lets you have a fragmented Phylactery, so the adventurers have to destroy seven phylacteries, Harry Potter style.
Thing is, there's Seven other Lichs who were your "friends" back in Evil Wizard/Cleric school, or whatever. Your Phylactery in inscribed on one of each of their Earbones. Each of them also have this feat, and seven of your bones are one of their Phylacteries.
The players have to kill 8 liches in 1d10 days (And the odds that the DM rolls low on one of the regen times are high), and if they forget to destroy ALL the bones after killing one lich, there's a chance one of the bones is one with a phylactery on it.

Or, as a contingency, there's only 7 Lichs, and each has an actual "classic Phylactery" that they've put in the Grand Phylactery Bank (Late page 1 or early page 2?).
Or even more evil, the liches who are your phylactery don't have you as a phylactery, but even more lichs, who have other lichs as phylacterys, who have you and even more lichs as phylacteries, Lather, Rinse, Repeat. That way, a group of 70+ lichs could all have assurance, that if they don't regenerate in 1d10 days, their phylacteries will, and if those don't, the phylacteries that let them regen will.

But the real hard part is getting more than one lich to be one of your phylacteries. If the trend catches, though, one may ask you to be it's phylactery.

Personally, I'd say that once you've been destroyed AND your phylactery was destroyed, your soul is entirely gone and you can't regenerate.

[RedWarrior0]

Once you kill a lich or which is an unliving phylactery, its regenerated form is an entirely separate body, not the old one; thus, it is not a phylactery, the old body's bones are.

Which is why you make your phylactery's destruction release a contingent True Resurrection, which returns an undead to the person it was in life.

[Marnath]

No, it is not in question at all. The lich has only regenerated after 1d10 days, and only once he has regenerated is he a creature, thus a valid target for discern location or scrying (and since you have not touched the regenerated bones, you cannot use the object version either). You would have to catch him after he regenerates but before he protects himself via mind blank. Considering that he can easily have a use-activated item of mind blank lying ready in the bag of holding for that specific purpose, you don't have a great shot.

The lich doesn't need mind blank. Nondetection blocks divinations too, and is only 3rd level.

[Dark Kerman]

But the real hard part is getting more than one lich to be one of your phylacteries. If the trend catches, though, one may ask you to be it's phylactery.

Vecna *Ringing up Balpheron, eating chocolate and lying on his bed in his pink dressing gown*: Heeeeeeeeya Balphy, wondering how you're day was?

Balpheron *painting remnants of toenails*: Ohhh, not bad, just tried on a new robe, it was like, totally powerful, but sorta made my bum look big.

Vecna: Ohhhh nooo, that's like, worse case scenario evah! What did you do?

Balpheron: I went for the Gloves Of Spellcraft, they suite- Ohh nooo! The wights got out again! Sorry, have to catch you later phylactery buddy

Vecna: Taraaa!


I'm a messed up human being. :smallconfused:
But back on course, why not make it a brick in a cobbled floor, (with the symbols on the other side, and then have the a massive granite ceiling fall on them if they touch it? No reflex save, save or die. (And even then squished if they try and move)

[Daelen]

I saw this and felt I had to post as I've had some great ideas for this in the past. My first and favorite I think has already been said here, but with a twist. Take something out of the Elder Evils, anything really will do, and trap it inside something that would probably have to be an artifact level Trap the Soul gem. Then, the lich carries it around his neck, and dares the party to destroy it.

The second doesn't require nearly as much fiat as the first. Hire a good-aligned weapon-smith, preferably the best that Faerun has to offer and in a town the party will be entering soon. The lich will obviously need some way to mask his alignment which shouldn't be hard at all to come by. Have the weapon-smith craft a weapon specifically designed for one of the party members (bonus points if its a holy avenger and there's a paladin in the party), crafting the phylactery gem into the hilt of the sword.

[Sengachi]

All I know is that you should cast Epic Obfuscation on it. It's an epic spell which gives something permanent greater invisibility and makes it immune to all divination spells (including see invisibility), and makes it hard to detect even with epic spells.

[Vemynal]

Ok, here's a curiosity

A dead body is an object, what is to stop a lich from making some random person's body his phylactery, casting gentle repose on it, and reburying it with some anti-scry spells/protection spells on it?

[archon_huskie]

I was reading a Harry Potter fanfic where Voldemort had the brilliant idea to make the plaque on the Voyager 2 space probe a Horocrux.

[Addi]

Originally Posted by Addi View Post
Personally I would allow a lich to craft his phylactery only out of an object of personal value. (Skull of long lost love, etc.) It should not be possible to bound parts of your soul to a thing that doesn't even matter to you.
It's magic. Why should it not be possible?

There are other things in magic that aren't possible either. (For example to scry on a smart lichs phylactery :smallsmile:)

The use of bluff is a way to let him doubt the safety of his phylactery. A good bluffer should be able to counter a question like...
"Really? Where was it, then?"

[Larpus]

Just thought about this now:

What about a Kansas city shuffle?

Make your phylactery a non suspicious object (I liked the idea of a single gold coin in the middle of all your treasure, kudos) as protected from scrying and other detection methods as possible, but at the same time make a second phylactery-like obejct, cast a Magic Aura heightened out the wazoo to make it register and look very much like a phylactery and then protect it a bit just so they believe it.

Doesn't make the phylactery inaccessible, but again, gives everyone a hard time.

Also, if the gold coin thing is used, then bonus points as you respawn in a Scrooge-like fashion. Ducktales, oo-oo!

[Reaver225]

"Really? Where was it, then?"
"I, personally, have no idea, but the Inevitable I called up to track it down gave me this ground up dust.. they really did a pretty good job on it, didn't they?"



Can't scry for objects. Also, he would know that Inevitables can't get to it any more than you can, so it's not really gonna convince him.Hey, all I have to do is make up a lie he might just, just swallow and follow it up with a big enough bluff modifier for him to take the bait.


Even if you could do it with one wish (you can't; the spell specifies a location, and "the lich's phylactery" isn't one),"I wish to be teleported to the location of the phylactery of [name], the dreaded lich". That's a location, isn't it? All you need is a decent bit of wording.

the lich could have protections against teleportation inside the bag of holding.THIS is what I'm after. Sure, having a bag of holding is fun and all, but it's a much better story all around if there's an entire dungeon crawl inside a bag of holding to seek the phylactery in! Nothing beats an active defense in the bag.


No, it is not in question at all. The lich has only regenerated after 1d10 days, and only once he has regenerated is he a creature, thus a valid target for discern location or scrying (and since you have not touched the regenerated bones, you cannot use the object version either). You would have to catch him after he regenerates but before he protects himself via mind blank. Considering that he can easily have a use-activated item of mind blank lying ready in the bag of holding for that specific purpose, you don't have a great shot.Hmm... I would have suggest trace teleport via limited wish but that only provides a link back from the last minute. Damn. And you'd have to locate the lich to find his exit point - which is impossible due to mind blank. Apart from having Greater Scrying as an at will SLA (and that'd need level 18! spell slots it'd be easier to just make an epic spell to do it)... I'm stumped. Contact Other Planes to work out how long it'd take for the lich to regenerate, and do it then?

[Marnath]

Hey, all I have to do is make up a lie he might just, just swallow and follow it up with a big enough bluff modifier for him to take the bait.


I think this (http://sot.wikia.com/wiki/Wizard%27s_Rules) is applicable. (the first one ^.^)

[Wings of Peace]

In a needle that is in a golden egg which is in a duck that has been tucked inside hare which will flee immediately after an adventurer discovers and opens the iron chest in which I have hidden the hare and should the hare be slain the duck will spring forth and fly away from the lonely island on which the chest was hidden.

[Marnath]

In a needle that is in a golden egg which is in a duck that has been tucked inside hare which will flee immediately after an adventurer discovers and opens the iron chest in which I have hidden the hare and should the hare be slain the duck will spring forth and fly away from the lonely island on which the chest was hidden.

O.o
Interesting....

[Vandicus]

Surgically put it inside the body of an innocent good aligned elan(or any other immortal race), stick a ring of sustenance on them, go to Sigil, find a bank, put her in a vault, and put her into eternal sleep. The usual wards around it, including nondetection and Forbiddance.

[Crasical]

In a needle that is in a golden egg which is in a duck that has been tucked inside hare which will flee immediately after an adventurer discovers and opens the iron chest in which I have hidden the hare and should the hare be slain the duck will spring forth and fly away from the lonely island on which the chest was hidden.

Bonus points for Russian folklore references.

I like having a Trap the Soul gem of some dangerous but unintelligent creature, making the PCs choose between releasing the horrorterror and allowing your plans to proceed. Better, make it more likely the PCs will encounter your Phylactery -before- they encounter you, and have it set up to warn you should it be destroyed so you can get the hell out of dodge until you've created a new one.

[Taelas]

The lich doesn't need mind blank. Nondetection blocks divinations too, and is only 3rd level.

Nondetection does not block discern location; he does need mind blank. (Read discern location's text.)


There are other things in magic that aren't possible either. (For example to scry on a smart lichs phylactery :smallsmile:)
Of course, but there is no reason to limit phylacteries to objects that are important to the lich. The fact that it is his phylactery will make the object important to him anyway.


The use of bluff is a way to let him doubt the safety of his phylactery. A good bluffer should be able to counter a question like...
Bluff is not unstoppable, no matter how good a skill you have. Sometimes the skill simply does not apply, and when you have a hyper-intelligent undead creature that has devoted considerable time and effort to protect a specific object, the person bluffing had better have some very precise information before the lich would even consider entertaining the notion.

If you manage to acquire that information, however, that's something else entirely.


Hey, all I have to do is make up a lie he might just, just swallow and follow it up with a big enough bluff modifier for him to take the bait.
See above.


"I wish to be teleported to the location of the phylactery of [name], the dreaded lich". That's a location, isn't it? All you need is a decent bit of wording.
No. Wording matters jack to wish, as any clever wording simply gets a perverted or partial fulfillment. The location of the phylactery is a closely guarded secret; it's not something the spell can just provide for free.

There is a question as to whether wish can even get you into the bag of holding, though -- the spell specifies "any plane"; the space in a bag of holding is nondimensional.

If it is possible, the spell would bypass any teleportation wards, however; I forgot about that bit.


THIS is what I'm after. Sure, having a bag of holding is fun and all, but it's a much better story all around if there's an entire dungeon crawl inside a bag of holding to seek the phylactery in! Nothing beats an active defense in the bag.
It would not be much of a dungeon crawl, considering the limited space. :smalltongue:


Hmm... I would have suggest trace teleport via limited wish but that only provides a link back from the last minute. Damn. And you'd have to locate the lich to find his exit point - which is impossible due to mind blank. Apart from having Greater Scrying as an at will SLA (and that'd need level 18! spell slots it'd be easier to just make an epic spell to do it)... I'm stumped. Contact Other Planes to work out how long it'd take for the lich to regenerate, and do it then?
You would require a very precise answer in order to work out how long the lich takes to regenerate -- considering that the lich will probably have mind blank up within a minute. Contact other plane gives a one-word answer. Not much to work with.




I like having a Trap the Soul gem of some dangerous but unintelligent creature, making the PCs choose between releasing the horrorterror and allowing your plans to proceed. Better, make it more likely the PCs will encounter your Phylactery -before- they encounter you, and have it set up to warn you should it be destroyed so you can get the hell out of dodge until you've created a new one.

You cannot create a new phylactery if yours gets destroyed. Bad, bad idea.

A Contingent true resurrection, activated upon the destruction of your phylactery, is the answer. You simply go through the lich ritual again, and acquire a new phylactery that way.

[magic9mushroom]

Your phylactery should be a gold piece. One gold piece, standard unit of currency. Is there a way to fool detect magic I'm forgetting? If so, use that, ward it against scrying, and install a contingency to teleport it back to you in case anyone tries to melt it down or something.

Now buy something with it in a major city. Bam, no one is ever, ever tracking down your phylactery. Not even you.

(And on the off-chance that an adventurer get a hold of it, they'll fall into a moral crisis: give up a gold piece? Unthinkable!)

I'd make this one of my Aumvor's Shattered Phylacteries.

[RedWarrior0]

Why an unintelligent creature? I'd say unleash all hell on them. Perhaps have a few crafted contingent gates on it to call in Demogorgon, Jubilex, Orcus, et al. Because everyone prepares for half the demon princes appearing out of nowhere.

[AMFV]

Not having read all the posts I can't say if you've decided already. I would give it to a random adventuring party in a bunch of loot. I would make it so that it couldn't be identified but had a faint magic aura (I'm pretty sure that as an epic level caster I could manage that), they'd never get rid of it or destroy it. Also after you've defeated them you'd certainly have an awesome rant already planned and then you can start the cycle over.

[magic9mushroom]

Why an unintelligent creature? I'd say unleash all hell on them. Perhaps have a few crafted contingent gates on it to call in Demogorgon, Jubilex, Orcus, et al. Because everyone prepares for half the demon princes appearing out of nowhere.

See, though, that's revenge, not an actual deterrent.

[Ravens_cry]

See, though, that's revenge, not an actual deterrent.
If you unleash it on everyone who attempts on the other hand, and let them live (for a given value of living) long enough to let people know what you did, that can be.
I still like my tea set for a group of immortal beings.
It's just . .poetic.

[Templarkommando]

I like kind of a hidden in plain sight approach. Liches are fairly well-known for a big ego, so a PC might expect bottom of the ocean or at the end of a dungeon full of traps. It needs to be something that appears mundane. A piece of gravel, a brick, a grain of sand, a book with a few thousand identical copies in circulation (millions if there are printing presses in your game), a copper coin, a nail (preferably one that becomes part of a building), the roots of a dead tree in a huge forest, or something along those lines sounds appropriate to me. Then cast appropriate anti-divination spells on it and let it go. Meaning that you have a minion spend your copper coin, drop the nail into the nearest nail bin at a general store, drop your grain of sand at a nearby beach etc.

I can really only think of two considerations here - though there may be more. First, if an adventurer is able to get past your anti-divination then all they have to do is walk up to the item and buy it/pick it up, etc. and then destroy it. Second, a lich should be careful about the material his phylactery is composed of. So a book, while unsuspected could be destroyed by general wear and tear in less than a few years. So instead of a grain of sand, maybe drop a grain of adamantium on the beach instead.

[Reaver225]

Bluff is not unstoppable, no matter how good a skill you have. Sometimes the skill simply does not apply, and when you have a hyper-intelligent undead creature that has devoted considerable time and effort to protect a specific object, the person bluffing had better have some very precise information before the lich would even consider entertaining the notion.

If you manage to acquire that information, however, that's something else entirely.But that's the point, see? The more paranoid the lich is, the more suceptiblre it is to bluffs. All you need to do is make the lich believe it's managed to piss someone off who's powerful enough to want to help destroy it (it IS a dread wizard, after all, feared across the planes!) And a glibness bard willing to waltz in and declare the lich out of luck.

Hey, the lich could probably beat someone else's defenses, being hyperintelligent and all. The heroes went and asked another lich about it.

Either the lich is paranoid enough to think someone might be cleverer than it and the bluff will work, or the lich thinks it's the smartest being in the planes and wouldn't have put so many defenses on it. Catch 22.

No. Wording matters jack to wish, as any clever wording simply gets a perverted or partial fulfillment. The location of the phylactery is a closely guarded secret; it's not something the spell can just provide for free.

There is a question as to whether wish can even get you into the bag of holding, though -- the spell specifies "any plane"; the space in a bag of holding is nondimensional.Right, then. Wish for the location of the phylactery, since that doesn't have a mind blank on it. Find out it's in a bag of holding. From there, discern location of the bag of holding, inside the other bag, open them up, work out the bag is a double-bluff, destroy phylactery.
A mindblanked living phylactery might be a good idea for full unscyrability.


It would not be much of a dungeon crawl, considering the limited space. :smalltongue: "Gerrard - there's a COLLOSAL SPIDER in here-!" "No, my friend! It appears that it is us who is very, very diminuitive! Curse that Lich!!!"



You would require a very precise answer in order to work out how long the lich takes to regenerate -- considering that the lich will probably have mind blank up within a minute. Contact other plane gives a one-word answer. Not much to work with. If we're being absolutely, utterly literal RAW, all you need is the d10 number from the round the lich died, and multiply by 24 hours exactly! That's definitely one word, even per Contact Other Plane!

[opticalshadow]

im still not sure bluff is what your going to use here, even if you managed to create a situation where it belives its in some amount of danger, its far more likly to ignore you anyways (if it hasnt attacked you on sight) and just divine its answerwers up on its own.

it being paranoied doesnt actually make it more or less likly to be bluffed. if anything its going to make it harder, becuase its going to attempt every possibility of truth, right down to a spell to make you speak it, and then your in a very very bad spot.

i thought it was already discussed why you couldnt wish for the locations of it.

and by literal raw, you couldnt use the number of d10 from the liches roll. becuase by raw you dont know that number, its a meta game mechanic. just like hit dice dont actuall exsist nor do spell dc's. all these numbers are outside of the game itself.

[Reaver225]

it being paranoied doesnt actually make it more or less likly to be bluffed. if anything its going to make it harder, becuase its going to attempt every possibility of truth, right down to a spell to make you speak it, and then your in a very very bad spot.

i thought it was already discussed why you couldnt wish for the locations of it.

and by literal raw, you couldnt use the number of d10 from the liches roll. becuase by raw you dont know that number, its a meta game mechanic. just like hit dice dont actuall exsist nor do spell dc's. all these numbers are outside of the game itself.Lichs who have their phylacteries threatened tend to retreat. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html)

Wish doesn't work on mind blank, but DOES work on scrying items, as items also can't be mind-blanked.

And finally, if you can't specifically ask for days, there's a whole discussion as to how you can get a number in a single word. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210705&page=2) if you have to ask "how many seconds will it take for the lich to reform".

[opticalshadow]

if you have to ask "how many seconds will it take for the lich to reform".

from my understanding its a random number, hence the dice roll, and that question could only be answered by telling you the number range, where as in this presicse instence, it cant be known because that dice roll doesnt exsist in game, and no creature would knwo the answer save maybe some high ranking deity (and im not even sure then becuase its suposed to represent random passed time, not a single fixed integur)

[Telok]

Well I was thinking of making a mountain into a phylactery. Just move the soil off to one side, etch the runes into it in 15 yard wide strokes, wash it with the blood on innocents, put the soil back and replant. The goal is not hiding it as much as your are confusing adventurers into thinking that the phylactery is on or in the mountain.

Then I realized that it would be better if the lich could just give the adventurers the phylactery and let them deal with it. Like making SCP 682 (http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-682) the phylactery.

[Lady Serpentine]

Place it in the exact center of a 500 foot spherical chamber, in a gravity-free vacuum.

Place a contingent Wish on it so that it's randomly transported to the exact center of one of several hundred of these, not including the one it's in , if anything - even a single air molecule - gets within 450 feet of it. Also include a clause that the Wish gets renewed. Place another contingent Wish on all of the rooms so that Jubilex, Geryon, Demogorgon, Orcus, Asmodeus, and all of the others appear in the chamber if it leaves.

Now, my question to you is: How do you destroy it?

[opticalshadow]

Place it in the exact center of a 500 foot spherical chamber, in a gravity-free vacuum.

Place a contingent Wish on it so that it's randomly transported to the exact center of one of several hundred of these, not including the one it's in , if anything - even a single air molecule - gets within 450 feet of it. Also include a clause that the Wish gets renewed. Place another contingent Wish on all of the rooms so that Jubilex, Geryon, Demogorgon, Orcus, Asmodeus, and all of the others appear in the chamber if it leaves.

Now, my question to you is: How do you destroy it?

ive never seen it done, how exactly do you program random into teleport but with that many specific locations?

[Lady Serpentine]

It's a Wish; you wish for it.

[Irreverent Fool]

It's a Wish; you wish for it.

Actually, isn't the lich in question a cleric? miracle is better.

[Lady Serpentine]

That might work; I've never read up on cleric spells, so I don't know. I'd have to take a look at the description.

If it would, then yes, a plan he can do on his own is better.

[Reaver225]

Place it in the exact center of a 500 foot spherical chamber, in a gravity-free vacuum.

Place a contingent Wish on it so that it's randomly transported to the exact center of one of several hundred of these, not including the one it's in , if anything - even a single air molecule - gets within 450 feet of it. Also include a clause that the Wish gets renewed. Place another contingent Wish on all of the rooms so that Jubilex, Geryon, Demogorgon, Orcus, Asmodeus, and all of the others appear in the chamber if it leaves.

Now, my question to you is: How do you destroy it?

Awaken everything around you, including the air molecules.
Mind blank them all.

Go in undetected by contingent wish, destroy all the spheres.

EDIT: It might be easier to polymorph into something that doesn't breathe and just mind-blanking yourself.

[Karoht]

Where would I place MY Phalactery?
Off Site Storage + Misdirection
My phalactery would be in the hands of a fellow lich. He would hold my phalactery, and I would hold his/hers. The adventurers would come, kill me, find what they think is my phalactery somewhere in my hideout, and destroy it, quest complete, and never look for me again. Meanwhile, I would res at my friend's place free from harm. I would then take his new phalactery with me to my new hideout, while he takes my new phalactery to his new hideout. And so forth.

[hookbill]

- ever burning torch in a hallway
- a stone as part of the foundation
- or a door hinge on the huge doors to the chamber (no one loots fixtures)

[opticalshadow]

- ever burning torch in a hallway
- a stone as part of the foundation
- or a door hinge on the huge doors to the chamber (no one loots fixtures)

actually it might be safer to put the everburing torch on the ceiling of a larger chamber as part of a chandiler or something, pesky adventurers always steal the ones on the walls and ive had some fairly careless invovled with them.

[kestrel404]

Having read the evil overlord list, I would create a fiendish dungeon full of monsters, traps and other guardians. In the deepest and vilest recesses of the dungeon, there would be a chest guarded by an iron golem. Inside that chest is a vile box covered in magical runic inscriptions. The box would be enchanted with two powers - any form of divination magic used to determine my phylactory would indicate that it is that box, and retributive strike.

In the attic of the orphanage of a nearby village, run by a true-neutral priest dedicated to the ideal of beauracracy and who doesn't allow visitors to the orphanage, there would be a child's doll. It would be missing one eye and have a torn skirt and be surrounded by similar items. It would be enchanted with fire resistence and non-detection and would otherwise be completely harmless. That would be my phylactery.

[marcielle]

Note, make sure AREA is protected instead of just philactery. Otherwise a spell to find out WHERE THE LICH REGENERATES will probably find you easily. And unless a lich regenerates all at once, the adventurers can take their sweet time destroying the philactery. Or, you know, summon an inevitable and tell them to call in their buddies, who will probably be ecstatic about ending an epic lich. Also, it's probably probably better to work under the assumption that the lich regens near the philactery. Because Rich Burlew thinks so.:smallwink:
Also, anything that can destroy the hero party can probably destroy you. So you might wanna leave the whole 'summon demogorgon' part out. I imagine that if you made him into your guard dog, he'd be pretty darn pissed. Also, he MADE the lichifying process or something like that. He can probably find a way to kil you without needing to find your philactery.

[Tr011]

Make one of the PCs the phylactery. They will never see it coming.

Can Lich A make Lich B his phylactery and Lich B Lich A his phylactery so they never die?

[Golden Ladybug]

Personally, I would do this;

First of all, I'd have a number of my minions (and of course I'd have minions) stake out all the major inns and taverns of the country, ready and willing to tell any Adventuring party about the rumors of my "weaknesses". Things to the tune of the last group of Adventurers who challenged me being brought back as powerful undead to guard...something. I will obviously outfit such locations with any and all traps and defenses, both Magical and Mundane, for their defense, and place a suitably impressive and imposing object at their hearts. Those objects will be marked with profane writing, and be placed upon dread altars. Attempting to touch them will trigger a trap that releases an unending swarm of undead creatures. No doubt they will all go down in one attack, but the point is they are numerous and annoying. Once the adventuring party fights their way to the 'Phylactery' and destroys it, the Swarm will end and any who survive will shut down.

This is not my Phylactery.

I will also have many small, seperate holds and forts spread throughout the land. A map of all of them will be in my main chamber, as well as a list of passcodes. At each of these places, I will place a Greater Stone Golem, created by me, with the instructions of asking any who approach for the Password, and then attacking them once they answer. In this locations, I will keep things such as innocous little trinkets, minor magic items and a locked chest. Inside the chest will be a necklace, with a gem adorning its center. The gem will, of course, be covered in arcane symbols.

Once again, these are not my Phylacteries.

The true location of my Phylactery will be on another, quiet and peaceful plane. At random, I will go to a small, out of the way coffee shop, in a nice suburb. I will strike an agreement with the owners, asking them to look after a teapot (which i will present to them; it will be old, a little worn around the edges, and indestructible and undetectable, to the limit my abilities can make it). I will then arrange to visit them at least once a year, for a quiet cup of tea and a catchup. Maybe some biscuits. I'll pay them a modest sum of money for their services, and that will be that.

[Ravens_cry]

Can Lich A make Lich B his phylactery and Lich B Lich A his phylactery so they never die?
Not if they are both destroyed before either regenerate.
Can you make a creature a phylactery anyway? I can see the thematic possibilities, there is certainly precedent culturally, but do the rules allow it?

[Ksheep]

Not if they are both destroyed before either regenerate.
Can you make a creature a phylactery anyway? I can see the thematic possibilities, there is certainly precedent culturally, but do the rules allow it?

Make a single bone a phylactery and have the other lich "hold onto it" by incorporating it into their skeleton. Also, how many adventurers make sure to completely destroy all the bones afterward?

On that line of thought, make the phylactery one of your OWN bones. Make the arcane writing small or appear decorative. For that matter, make ALL your bones decorative, carvings or tattoos or some other such thing. If they try to scry your phylactery before you die, they will think it's on you. After they search you and don't find it, if they try to scry for it after, they will think you put up some spell to redirect scrying attempts to you.

[Lady Serpentine]

Awaken everything around you, including the air molecules.
Mind blank them all.

Go in undetected by contingent wish, destroy all the spheres.

EDIT: It might be easier to polymorph into something that doesn't breathe and just mind-blanking yourself.

Nope. It would still detect the gravitational shift when you entered.

This is the reason for the spell to null gravity that was placed on the chamber.

[MikolasTheAngry]

A couple suggestions I've encountered/thought of, one of which at least involves the reinterpretation of deity figures.

1: Incorporate your phylactery as -part of- another creature's body. The nastier the better.

2: Same as above, but something entirely unassuming. Or something that the heroes will really have to hesitate to think about killing. Who wants to cut open little Timmy to get at his prosthetic phylactery-heart? No one? C'mon, good of the world here...

3: Celestial bodies. This spawns from a brief campaign idea that interpreted gods as not true deities, but very powerful mages; for example a figure of such arcane potency that he managed to bind himself to the sun.

The idea was going to be trying to deal with various figures of this sort losing it/become senile or corrupt with age, in some fashion. If you can figure out a way that lets you regenerate anywhere the sun shines...

Entirely unrealistic, those, but far more fun than "little sparkly trinket" don't you think? The last one in particular is fun, but... lacking something in the way of feasibility and ways for PCs to deal with it. There's a reason that game never went anywhere. :smallfrown:

[flabort]

OK, so Libris Mortis, or whatever that book is, claims you cannot enchant a phylactery (By that I mean put additional enchantments on it), nor can an already enchanted object by your phylactery.

You can make a decorative gem on an enchanted object, but destroying the gem on the +2 undead bane sword won't destroy the sword :smallfrown:

But, you can still enchant most anything mundane, such as armor plates, as your phylactery. So you can enchant any non-magical gear or piece of metal within that massive unbeatable golem to be your phylactery, and since it isn't that gear which is enchanted to make the golem move, you've just made a phylactery that defends itself.
Add the Epic Spell Fragmented Phylactery (The creator's name is just fluff, not important), and you have 7 phylacteries. Enchant various gears in various golems, and you have the start of a phylactery army, like mine. :smallwink:

Add templates, and cast the spell again and again, and again and again, and again, and keep casting it again, and again and again, and eventually you may even end up with an army the size of mine. :smalltongue:

[jecree]

Why not just put it into a bag of holding and pierce the bag? It's lost forever in an inaccessible extradimensional space.

[Lady Serpentine]

Couldn't you just scry it, then Gate to where it is with that method, though?

[Qwertystop]

Couldn't you just scry it, then Gate to where it is with that method, though?

Nope. By RAW, it's lost forever.
:smallbiggrin:

[Lady Serpentine]

Er... Well. That's kind of odd.

If I'm high enough level, I can go kill a deity in their own plane, but I can't get to a phylactery because a bag got a hole in it?

I'm not saying that you're wrong, just that I can't see how they thought that made sense when they wrote it...

[Qwertystop]

Er... Well. That's kind of odd.

If I'm high enough level, I can go kill a deity in their own plane, but I can't get to a phylactery because a bag got a hole in it?

I'm not saying that you're wrong, just that I can't see how they thought that made sense when they wrote it...

Technically, I'd say that it would be possible for it to be found, but only if it was found by a single person, they weren't looking for it, and the information could not be passed to anyone else. That way it remains lost.

[raymundo]

Nope. By RAW, it's lost forever.
:smallbiggrin:

But then, so would you be if your body was destroyed? Doesn't seem like the best kind of immortality..

[Qwertystop]

But then, so would you be if your body was destroyed? Doesn't seem like the best kind of immortality..

Maybe you reappear in the last place the phylactery was before it was lost. Or where you died. Nothing says where you regenerate.

[Lady Serpentine]

Only if you accept the whole 'reform at phylactery' thing.

If not, then, well.... You can reform anywhere.

[raymundo]

I see. Well..
As a lich i certainly would not risk it.
As a player I'd find it rather rules-lawyerish. But if your DM follows your reasoning, the bag of holding variant is quite perfect.



Edit: Yes, neither the libris mortis nor the monster manual specify where the lich regenerates. The only thing about the reforming process I have found is in the Draconomicon, regarding dracolichs. Their "souls return to the phylactery, where they may posess another body". Since the whole body thing is quite different with dracoliches, I wouldn't think too much about it, though.

[flabort]

See, the nice thing about having 7^14,642,531,234 phylacteries, is that you can spawn anywhere you want. :smalltongue:

Assuming you abuse that spell be casting it over and over, like I did. :smalltongue: It's the best thing since DMM: Persist. :smallwink:

[raymundo]

See, the nice thing about having 7^14,642,531,234 phylacteries, is that you can spawn anywhere you want. :smalltongue:

Assuming you abuse that spell be casting it over and over, like I did. :smalltongue: It's the best thing since DMM: Persist. :smallwink:

Do you happen to have the rules for the spell at hand? I did not find anything about it.

[Gotterdammerung]

I carved out 8 reclusive locations with 50 ft. diameter by 10 feet tall dimensions.

I worked with my GM and used the craft wondrous items feat in conjuction with all the "detect" spells, greater arcane sight, sequester,greater alarm, contingency, and teleport to make my phylactery into a wondrous item.

My phylactery was under the effects of a permanent sequester, making it impossible to locate via divinations. If it detects anything (excluding me) or any magic directed at it (excluding mine) or if its detecting capabilities are blocked by anything within 60 feet it teleports without error to 1 of 7 other pre-scouted reclusive locations randomly. It also notifies me with a mental alarm when this happens.

I then used circle magic in conjunction with leadership to cast a high caster lvl hardness spell and increase its hardness to astronomical heights, making it immune to most physical trauma.

I then widened and shaped an energy transformation field to exclude the phylactery's square in each location and linked it to the Force cage spell (Bars).


Since, you must teleport into these locations you can not have anti-magic up. And once you teleport into these locations, you are in an energy transformation field and therefore can't put up anitmagic or use disjunction.

8 people must somehow find all 8 locations (hard to do because of the sequester) and simultaneously teleport to the exact square the phylactery is in and simultaneously put of antimagic fields in order to lay hands on my phylactery.

But the moment they teleport in, I will know about it and have a chance to respond.

[Ravens_cry]

Make a single bone a phylactery and have the other lich "hold onto it" by incorporating it into their skeleton. Also, how many adventurers make sure to completely destroy all the bones afterward?

On that line of thought, make the phylactery one of your OWN bones. Make the arcane writing small or appear decorative. For that matter, make ALL your bones decorative, carvings or tattoos or some other such thing. If they try to scry your phylactery before you die, they will think it's on you. After they search you and don't find it, if they try to scry for it after, they will think you put up some spell to redirect scrying attempts to you.
If they know liches, they would be foolish not to. While it is better then nothing, do not underestimate adventurers; they are capable of a brutal cunning and even occasional flashes of insight.
Making your bones all scrimshawed to look like phylactery and have one actually be it is a bad, bad idea. Now they will smash every bone. Phylacteries have a hardness greater then bone, one will be harder to destroy then the other. Also, what if you die to a disintegrate? It is a common undead killer spell for high end single nasties. It explicitly doesn't destroy equipment when cast on a creature. Your phylactery is definitely equipment. Sifting the ashes, like any greedy adventurers will, will reveal your phylactery, ready to be destroyed by a second disintegrate or much smashing.
Too risky in my opinion.

[flabort]

Do you happen to have the rules for the spell at hand? I did not find anything about it.

I can't remember/find the specifics right now, but it was an instant spell (read: doesn't end) targeting either you, or your phylactery (I forget, doesn't matter).
As an epic spell, it didn't have a spell level, but a casting DC. yucky mechanic, but it had a sweet effect:

It turned your phylactery into 7 phylacteries (Or another number, I'm sure it was seven. Fun fact: it's the exact number of hocruxes Voldemort had). All of them had to be destroyed in order to prevent you from regenerating in 1d10 days. As the newly created phylacteries are still phylacteries, I'm pretty sure there's nothing keeping you from casting it again. And it never specifies what the phylacteries look like, so you could make them unsuspecting gears, which you put in your golems.

If this helps you find it, it was created by this setting specific lich, who's huge and fat, and famous in the setting (therefor his name is in the spell). Found it, Aumvor the Undying. So the spell is called Aumvor's Fragmented Phylactery, from Forgotten Realms. Just cut away the "Aumvor's" part, and any lich in any setting can use it.

[raymundo]

I can't remember/find the specifics right now.

I asked because your postings implied you had used this spell in a game, to make a pretty much infinite amount of phylacteries. As this is obviosly a pretty good thing for a lich, I wondered about the costs of the spell. The initial creation of your phylactery will cost you quite a bit of ressources and XP, so I'd guess casting this spell will cost - if not seven times as much - still a significant amount of gold, XP and time.

Hence me asking about the specifics, various other epic spells who did not improve your life expectancy by factor 7 were rather costy.


Edit: Alright, found the rules. Casting time 1 minute, DC 30, no further costs for the spell after developing it. But the duration isn't instantious, but "permanent". That would mean you could dispel it.. whatever it's worth.

[flabort]

I asked because your postings implied you had used this spell in a game,

No, no. :smalltongue: No sane DM would ever allow that, except on the BBEG of a level 100 campaign.

Just check my avatar/ext. sig.

[raymundo]

No, no. :smalltongue: No sane DM would ever allow that, except on the BBEG of a level 100 campaign.

Just check my avatar/ext. sig.

Alright, I see we are in agreement then. But thanks for the input, the spell is in "Champions of Ruin", might be a good read on lich-stuff.

[Raiki]

Having played in an epic game where I actually had a phylactery, I can answer this one pretty confidently.

I would hide it in a small 30'x30' demiplane, accessible only by casting a greater plane shift spell while located in the throne room at the dead center of my personal plane of existence (a mass of glass/gem/obsidian tunnels that were ever-reshaping themselves with the help of some fine sized incorporeal flying monkeys[Don't ask, it was a very monkey-themed game]). Also inside this demiplane would be a large thorn of malformed and twisted obsidian, created by the over-use of time magic to the extent that it caused a spacial-temporal atomic explosion. Said thorn would deal 20d6 radiation damage to any living creature within 30' (convenient, huh?) every round.

This demiplane was later to become the de facto storage location of any item too powerful to allow anyone else to have access to.


~R~

[Elemental]

Well, what I would do is this:

Firstly, create a Phylactery normally, probably as a cool looking amulet or something. Then retreat into hiding with it (no one would want to kill me that way), and then spend the next several centuries researching extremely powerful abjurations.
When I'm done that, I shall construct a massive, hundred-layered, platinum-plated, adamantium cube. Design each layer as a clockwork mechanism that takes centuries to unlock and open. Have a room at the heart of the cube for my Phylactery and other things I might need. And then enchant the whole thing with the abjurations I spent centuries devising, thus making it (hopefully) indestructible, undetectable, immune to magic of all kinds, etc, etc. Make sure I can still teleport in and out.
And then send the whole thing hurtling through the deepest, darkest reaches of the cosmos.

Finally, relax in my palace by the beach and hope I don't annoy anyone.

[That_guy_there]

- ever burning torch in a hallway
- a stone as part of the foundation
- or a door hinge on the huge doors to the chamber (no one loots fixtures)

HAHA! You've never traveled with my group! We have made a point of looting fixtures. Its amazing that some folks will put "impervious" door in the middle of a normal hallway as a deterent. That doesn't work when the paranoid rogue hands the hulking barbarian an adamantine dagger. (sure it takes a while to cut out, but then you've got a hell of a tower sheild for the fighter!)


Also I like both the super paraiond hiding idea as well as the in plain sight approach. If you use the torch, and go with putting it into a chandallier or what not, go ahead and make sure all the other torches in your place have "Magic Aura" permanently cast on them. Now its a needle in a haystack, and can be written off as "Of course everything detects as evil, its the HQ of a LICH!" :smalltongue:

[legomaster00156]

Build a huge maze-like dungeon to hide the phylactery, with a gravel floor along the whole path. After exhausting their supplies five times getting past the deadly enemies and traps, they finally come upon a huge black gem on a pedestal. When they break said gem, it is revealed that it was holding the soul, not of the lich, but of 50 innocent children around the world, who just died thanks to the party.
Meanwhile, the REAL phylactery is a simple pearl, buried underneath the gravel in a random spot in the dungeon. It has a permanent Nondetection cast on it, so you cannot use Divination to find it. And, of course, it has high enoug hardness that it cannot be destroyed by accidentally stepping on it as you walk down the corridors.

[Lady Serpentine]

Even better: Cast Nystul's Magic Aura on all of the gravel, and make the phylactery one of the rocks in the path, with the same precautions on it as you'd have put on the pearl.

[hookbill]

HAHA! You've never traveled with my group! We have made a point of looting fixtures. Its amazing that some folks will put "impervious" door in the middle of a normal hallway as a deterent. That doesn't work when the paranoid rogue hands the hulking barbarian an adamantine dagger. (sure it takes a while to cut out, but then you've got a hell of a tower sheild for the fighter!)


Also I like both the super paraiond hiding idea as well as the in plain sight approach. If you use the torch, and go with putting it into a chandallier or what not, go ahead and make sure all the other torches in your place have "Magic Aura" permanently cast on them. Now its a needle in a haystack, and can be written off as "Of course everything detects as evil, its the HQ of a LICH!" :smalltongue:


dang.... :smallbiggrin:

[Doug Lampert]

Only if you accept the whole 'reform at phylactery' thing.

If not, then, well.... You can reform anywhere.

Even if I reform at the Phylactery which is lost forever, who cares? I'm not lost forever and nothing in the rules says I am, just the phylactery.

So even though it's right there I can't find it for some reason, and then I gate myself back to the material plane.

[AugustNights]

As the newly created phylacteries are still phylacteries, I'm pretty sure there's nothing keeping you from casting it again.

Aumvor specifically did recast it several times, I believe. 206, if I remember correctly. A human skeleton.

[EmperorNortonII]

Since I may be in this position in-game soon, I've been thinking about this.

I think I'm going to commission a famous artist in my game-world to paint something completely unrelated to me, make the arcane script, etc, that has to be on it on the back of the painting, and donate it to a museum. The problem with the little doll, nail, gold piece, etc ideas is that someone may very well destroy it on accident. How do you prevent your item from being destroyed accidentally? You make it very, very valuable from a 5 gp piece of paper and a 10 gp set of paints.

Bonus points if you off the painter immediately afterwards. Collectors will do anything to protect Pablo PcElfo's final work.

[Gildedragon]

A [something significant to the lich (made from its original bones)] inside an extra dimensional space, like the one used by the Maze spell (or somewhere in the dreamscape).
Entering and navigating the dimension is the challenge to beat, not the managing to break the phylactery

[Dissonance]

To EmporerNorton:

While I could see this working, I feel it would be an incredibly dangerous idea. You would also need to get a hold of the painting when it is done so some high lv magic to protect it from scrying, detect magic, detect evil, ect. This could become problematic as it would give an in game reference to your character interacting with the painting. Giving potential enemies the classic way to find important items. Another problem is just how public it would be in a museum, I can guarantee you that it will be found out eventually if you keep it in such a public place. A private collector would be safer yes, but not by much. In both cases, storage might become an issue. With the outcome being the painting removed, the runes discovered, and the knowledge of your phylactery getting to those who can destroy it.

If you want to stick with the idea, make sure the guy you hire is NOT one of those brilliant artists like Botticelli, da Vinci, or Raphael. These people's works have been studied ENDLESSLY making detection much more likely. A second rate painter would be a good idea, with just enough class to be valuable but lacking the depth to make people curious. On the same note do not provide any materials for the person, the less that can be connected to you the better. If you are going to kill him, be very careful about it. While he might not warrant the whole law force looking for you, it will draw attention to his works. Especially his final one. Attention is not good. You are also going to want to keep tabs on the painting when it is sold off. So you at least have some idea where your phylactery will end up and can influence it as necessary. While attention is unwanted and you would rather be no where NEAR the thing if your not regening your body. Trying to keep it out of the building that is right next to the church/wizard college would be a good idea.

[Chaos018]

Not sure on where to find this, but a lich can, with a sufficient blood sacrifice create more than one phylactery. I heard it in a story. The gist of it was that this lich created his phylactery to be a grain of sand and put it in a desert. Using his newfound "immortality", he founded a society that pretty much worshiped him through human sacrifice, making each new phylactery a new grain of sand, year by year for centuries. By the time the PCs in this other group found the lich, every phylactery he had covered half the desert (think Sahara desert....yea, that many), with no real way to scry or detect it through magical means (that much ground made for a more diffuse and general area, not specific in any way). The only way to permanently get rid of him would be of major cataclysmic destruction of the whole desert or they themselves finding ways to prolong their lives long enough to go through all the grains of sand in that desert, which may be nearly impossible. The guy who played the lich was.....smart with this, I think, :)

[hewhosaysfish]

I'm not sure about this idea of making an innocent orphan into a phylactery.
Even if we assume that you can do that to a living creature:
1) Only Good enemies will be conflicted about destroying little Timmy. (All orphan boys are called "little Timmy". They just are.) Only preparing to deal with the PCs is kinda metagame thinking on the part of the DM. The Lich would want his phylactery to be safe from other Evil Overlords too. (Plus there's always the risk that one of your PCs may be "Chaotic Neutral".)
2) Even in Good adventurers or Evil rival don't destroy little Timmy then accidents, disease, bear attacks or the inevitable march of time will. Unless you put little Timmy in suspended animation (using quintessence, scroll of sequester or whatever) and stash him in a hidden vault of some kind. That would work.

Thinking some more on that last idea, you could use Aumvor's Fragmented Phylactery to create multiple Timmys (Timmies?), keep them in stasis in one or more hidde vaults, dropping one off at a random orphanage every 5 years and recasting AFP periodically to replenish your Timmy reserves.
You would want to invest in a resable item of Sequester for this, I guess.

Anyone wanting to destroy you would have to find and penetrate your vaults to get at the sequestered Timmii and then track down 10-15 anonymous people scattered across the world.

Or instead of putting little Timmy in stasis, you could raise him as your own son and then when he comes of age, help him to follow in Daddy's footsteps and become a Lich himself. Timmy's phylactery should be (of course) Timmy Junior.

Over the generations, you could amass a considerable chain of Liches in this fashion with the only way to destroy them all being to destroy the youngest first and work your way up. And all the Liches have a vested interested in preventing this.

Even if this strange little family quarrels, disagrees or even hates each other, the younger generations can't be rid of the older generation without destroying themselves first... and if the older generation was smart enough to keep a back-up Timmy or two in stasis then an uppity child can always be replaced.

EDIT:
Also, if I were a Lich I would try to legally change my name to "Forget-about-question-What-is-two-plus-two?-Please-tell-me-I-can't-figure-it-out-myself-Thank-you-I-Wish-that-I-won't-be-able-to-make-any-more-Wishes-Hooray!-Why-is-everyone-looking-at-me-funny?-I-want-my-mummy"
It's not a foolproof counter to Contact Other Planes or Wish but it will give people a headache trying to figure out the right wording.

[Toliudar]

Interestingly, nowhere in the Lich entry does it say where they reappear, and more specifically it doesn't say it has to reappear near the phylactery.

Hmm. This is a fun note! It also doesn't say that the Lich has any control over where it reforms. This would be a really fun way to start a campaign (evil lich pops into existence in the middle of the king's birthday party), or to create a Quantum Leap (the series, not the concept) moment for reforming PC's.

On topic: I had a PC lich befriend and hand off his phylactery to Shiva. Yes, that one.

[Arkhosia]

If he's a Cleric of Orcus, Lolth, Demogorgon, or any other gods who have stats, maybe he struck a deal that his phylactery is the god's clothes, jewelry, weapon, etc, basically an item on the god that isn't magic. Anyone who wants to destroy your phylactery has to pretty much kill a god to kill you, and a epic level(?), extremely devoted cleric like you would be perfect for extra aid if you regenerate while the god's in battle.

[Gildedragon]

So, I think I mentioned this before, but anyone know where the "make a cave into a phylactery" thing is from?

[ThreeDSix]

I'd make my phylactery into a book called 'The Complete Visual Guide to Arcane and Religious Iconography' and, along with all the usual non- detection protections, donate it to a library owned by militant preservers of knowledge... Maybe one day an adventuring party willdrop by to use the library to get their '+5 competence bonus' on a specific Knowledge Arcane check...:smallbiggrin:

[Darth Stabber]

Over the generations, you could amass a considerable chain of Liches in this fashion with the only way to destroy them all being to destroy the youngest first and work your way up. And all the Liches have a vested interested in preventing this.

Not sure this I aperfect defense, but it sounds like an excellent explanation/justification for why you have fight sequentially stronger monsters as you move toward your goals.

[/quote=hewhosaysfish]Also, if I were a Lich I would try to legally change my name to "Forget-about-question-What-is-two-plus-two?-Please-tell-me-I-can't-figure-it-out-myself-Thank-you-I-Wish-that-I-won't-be-able-to-make-any-more-Wishes-Hooray!-Why-is-everyone-looking-at-me-funny?-I-want-my-mummy"
It's not a foolproof counter to Contact Other Planes or Wish but it will give people a headache trying to figure out the right wording.[/QUOTE]

Wish and most divination effects only require you to be unambiguously identified, not named. Also not that your "true name" is in no way related to what your legal name.

The last lich I made was weird case. He was the lead researcher at "project allspell" (the game world's equivalent of the arcane order, of mage of the arcane order fame, also the equivalent of the order of the book), and after so many centuries of experimentation his soul became attached to the allspell (a giant orb made of castings of every spell and psionic power the order has been able to get it's sticky paws on). He became an involuntary lich, and his phylactery was the allspell, and all of the magic rings that link to it (the physical key needed to access the allspell's magic in the field). What better protection for your phylactery than the object of study and power for many of the world's most powerful wizards, clerics, druids, archivists, psions, and ardents.

[Arkhosia]

Make your phylactery:
1. The keystone of a structure that holds up an enormous surface area, preventing a major city or even half the kingdom from collapsing into the Underdark. What's more important: slaying you or not killing thousands to millions of lives, destroying countless materials, shops, artifacts, and FOOD, and basically committing Suicide.

2. Your unmarked gravestone in the middle of nowhere, buried under a mountain in a tomb covered with lead, linked to a one-way portal to your secret stronghold in a pocket dimension. Cue PC rage face.

3. A keystone providing power in a large construct that dwells in the lowest layer of Hell, guarding Asmodeus himself (he's in 3.5, right?).

[Jon_Dahl]

I would create a zombie hippogriff, place the phylactery inside it and plane shift us to the Negative Energy Plane. Then I would release the zombie and tell it to fly upwards. Just upwards, and never stop.

[Red Rubber Band]

Hide away for a year. Create your phylactery, split (whatever the spell is called) it into 1+CL pieces, continue splitting it.

Now at high enough levels you should have your own town/nation to rule. Come back after a year of splitting phylacteries and hand out your phylacteries as the new currency your town/nation is to use.

A few years down the track of people using your soul as currency and it will, hopefully, have spread far and wide enough that no one will be able to collect all the pieces.

Throw some in the ocean, bury some, etc as an extra measure.

[zlefin]

hmmm, maybe make the phylactery two self-resetting traps, one with maybe prismatic sphere, and one with plane shift so it keeps moving around?
That seems a little too easy to beat though.

I think people said the lich in question is a cleric, and a rather high-level one at that.
How about just asking your deity to hold onto your phylactery for you? They can just keep it on their belt or something. That should make it fairly hard for anyone to attack it.

[Arkhosia]

hmmm, maybe make the phylactery two self-resetting traps, one with maybe prismatic sphere, and one with plane shift so it keeps moving around?
That seems a little too easy to beat though.

I think people said the lich in question is a cleric, and a rather high-level one at that.
How about just asking your deity to hold onto your phylactery for you? They can just keep it on their belt or something. That should make it fairly hard for anyone to attack it.

Ninja'd you a day or two ago.
Great minds think alike!

[Mnemnosyne]

Okay, so, I'd say it can be pretty well established that hiding a phylactery under 3.5 rules isn't that hard and it can pretty feasibly be made so that at least, only someone with very powerful magic could possibly ever find it again. Indeed, by 3.5 rules, liches should almost never be destroyed permanently because of this, since it would take a herculean effort to destroy a well-hidden phylactery.

What if we put the rules from the 1st Edition version of Lords of Darkness on the phylactery issue?

If the lich is ever destroyed, it needs to inhabit a recently dead (within 30 days) corpse that is within 90 feet of its phylactery. Also, the dead body gets a saving throw, and if it succeeds, the lich can't inhabit that body and needs another fresh corpse to try it with.

This means that while the phylactery needs to be protected, it can't be too well protected because it needs to get within 90 feet of a fresh corpse in the event that you're ever destroyed. And it needs to have a chance to get more than one body, in case the first one succeeds on its saving throw.

Now how do you hide it?

Bonus Question: The Lords of Darkness version explicitly allows the phylactery to be any item, even a lump of stone, but what if we also follow the rules from the 2nd Edition Monstrous Manual, and require the phylactery to have 1,500 GP of value for every level/HD of the lich? Since Liches must be at least 18th level by those rules, the phylactery must be at least 27,000 GP in value; a pebble ain't gonna cut it.

These versions make the question more interesting, I think.

[Gildedragon]

The turning your fragmented phylactery into currency fulfills both easy enough. Especially if you have them circulate in a land where coins are burried with the dead.

Alternatively sponsor a massive vault-cemetery-temple within which undead creation spells are impeded. Have the sanctum sanctotum of the structure be your phylactery.
Have a contingent spell if any part of the superstructure is damaged, undead creatures (PAOed into bricks or cobbles or somesuch) break loose, convincing everyone it is in their best interest to prevent damage to the structure, because an ancient lich's necromancy has suffused the area so much that the temple is the only thing keeping the gates of death shut.
People will bury their dead, especially those of people liable to come back, within your cemetery giving you potential bodies, as they know the area is safe an will keep undead from attacking

[Deophaun]

Put your phylactery on a personal demiplane about the size of a teleportation circle. Whenever anyone who isn't you arrives, the circle (and whatever additional traps you have invested in the area) activates, casting plane shift and sending intruders to a not-nice plane of your choosing. Doesn't matter if the intruders plane shift or wish their way in, either.

You can come and go as you please. Keep fresh corpses there if you like to play by 1st edition rules.

[Arkhosia]

Okay, so, I'd say it can be pretty well established that hiding a phylactery under 3.5 rules isn't that hard and it can pretty feasibly be made so that at least, only someone with very powerful magic could possibly ever find it again. Indeed, by 3.5 rules, liches should almost never be destroyed permanently because of this, since it would take a herculean effort to destroy a well-hidden phylactery.

What if we put the rules from the 1st Edition version of Lords of Darkness on the phylactery issue?

If the lich is ever destroyed, it needs to inhabit a recently dead (within 30 days) corpse that is within 90 feet of its phylactery. Also, the dead body gets a saving throw, and if it succeeds, the lich can't inhabit that body and needs another fresh corpse to try it with.

This means that while the phylactery needs to be protected, it can't be too well protected because it needs to get within 90 feet of a fresh corpse in the event that you're ever destroyed. And it needs to have a chance to get more than one body, in case the first one succeeds on its saving throw.

Now how do you hide it?

Bonus Question: The Lords of Darkness version explicitly allows the phylactery to be any item, even a lump of stone, but what if we also follow the rules from the 2nd Edition Monstrous Manual, and require the phylactery to have 1,500 GP of value for every level/HD of the lich? Since Liches must be at least 18th level by those rules, the phylactery must be at least 27,000 GP in value; a pebble ain't gonna cut it.

These versions make the question more interesting, I think.

Here's an idea: store your phylactery in a citadel,connected to a one-way portal from a the bottom of a "bottomless" pit near a major city. Convince the town to dispose of dead bodies by tossing them in the pit, and create a shield over the portal that blocks living creatures (not a 1e player, so I am not sure if existing spells for 1e with the aforementioned effects exist. Just providing an idea).

[MirddinEmris]

Put it in the egg, put the egg in the duck, put the duck in the hare, put the hare in the chest, bind the chest with unbreakable chains to a very old oak on a far away island.

[Arkhosia]

Do a Jam Story (http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PKFBbgDTHGo&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DPKFBbgDTHGo) with a small apartment, filled with teleportation spells and tons of equipment!

Here's a few other ideas (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=290315)

[Medic!]

I've never been one for elaborate schemes based on obscure texts or oddly worded spells/materials/etc for purposes like dealing with a Lich's phylactery.

If it was me, I'm the kinda guy that would make my phylactery a part of a statue in the Town Square (say, a gem or a coin in the statue's eye?), with a permanent misdirection on it pointing to some other nearby inanimate object.

If your murder-hobo adventurer scumbag PCs decide to do something like...oh I dunno, steal the gems out of that statue's eyes? So be it, they can just carry that phylactery around all day long because the only thing in the world that a PC won't burn/kill/eat is loot.

[Xuldarinar]

Make my phylactery appear as something used in building, like a stone slab, a plank, or even a nail. Where this would be put would depend on the character. For instance, since I enjoy shadowcasters, perhaps I'd be a shadow lich and have the phylactery be put somewhere within the Bleak Academy, replacing part of an existing structure within, preferably something unlikely to be damaged or replaced.

[Pentagon]

If I was the kind of meglomaniac thinking of actually becoming a lich, I'd believe that it was impossible for me to be defeated.. Therefore I'd put my phylactery in a semi obvious but impressive place such as at the end of a dungeon built in a volcano... ward it up to be impossible to teleport and ensure that it had plenty of room to gloat at the end..

Then farm adventurers :D

[Arkhosia]

Steal an adventurer's family heirloom and make it a phylactery. :smallwink:

[Ranting Fool]

If I was the kind of meglomaniac thinking of actually becoming a lich, I'd believe that it was impossible for me to be defeated.. Therefore I'd put my phylactery in a semi obvious but impressive place such as at the end of a dungeon built in a volcano... ward it up to be impossible to teleport and ensure that it had plenty of room to gloat at the end..

Then farm adventurers :D

:smallbiggrin:

[Xuldarinar]

Evil Overlord List (http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html)

5. The artifact which is the source of my power will not be kept on the Mountain of Despair beyond the River of Fire guarded by the Dragons of Eternity. It will be in my safe-deposit box. The same applies to the object which is my one weakness.

[ElectricMadman]

Why would I tell you ? I am not stupid. :smallamused:

[EugeneVoid]

Genesis Demi-Plane where 1 year in the Plane is nigh-infinite years in the material plane. Going there to destroy the Phylactery makes you skip to the death of the universe :P.

[Trickquestion]

Make the proton of a random oxygen atom in the air surrounding me my phylactery. Can't split atoms, you horse riding medieval chumps! Physics Lich for the win.

Alternatively, shoot it into space.
:xykon:"Hey Recloak! Your nation is getting a space program for Christmas."

[Captnq]

Just a side note, many of these hiding places seem like they'd be painful to reform in.

Create a device. The device casts reverence on any body placed in it. Then it casts revivify right after the reverence spell ends. Make sure it's BIG. The chamber where this happens needs to be sealed up when in use. Now you have a cheap way to bring back the recently dead without level loss.

Have a warning that says every once in a while the Evil God of Soul Eating gets a soul before it can be recovered. Make sure the nice people running this At-Cost service point this out to anyone who comes to bring a loved one back to life. Have a hidden section under the chamber where people come back to life. Have your phylactery in said hidden section. Ward the ever living crap out of that section.

When you need to come back, the next person being placed in the device slides down to your secret processing area. You come back and replace the body of the recently dead with your newly regenerated body. Add in illusion spells and what not to fool people.

Every time you die, you just wait until someone uses the at-cost "back from the dead without level loss" Service. It supplies a constant supply of freshly dead bodies and done right, NOBODY will ever let it be smashed. If you get lucky,maybe your enemies will use the service sometime. Add in the option to replace some people with demon possessed corpses.

And a good time is had by all.

[The Oni]

Hide away for a year. Create your phylactery, split (whatever the spell is called) it into 1+CL pieces, continue splitting it.

Now at high enough levels you should have your own town/nation to rule. Come back after a year of splitting phylacteries and hand out your phylacteries as the new currency your town/nation is to use.

A few years down the track of people using your soul as currency and it will, hopefully, have spread far and wide enough that no one will be able to collect all the pieces.

Throw some in the ocean, bury some, etc as an extra measure.

If all the money in your empire is your Phylactery, this means that, in order to destroy you, the PCs will have to harness one of the darkest, most arcane and chaotic forces known to mankind - capitalism. Truly, Phylactery Money would be the root of all evil.

But shooting your Phylactery into space is a terrible idea, it could be destroyed by a passing meteor (shower). Also I'm pretty sure there are things that can live in space in D&D.

If I had multiple Phylacteries, I'd make each one a golem and give it some means of teleportation. Then I'd instruct each Golem to lie dormant until such time as one was destroyed, at which point the other golems would teleport over, kill the guys who broke the golem, and then put the other golem back together before resuming their posts.

But if I only had one? I'd hide it inside the living body of an immortal (as in not-dying-of-old-age variety) noble, preferably a benevolent one, without his knowledge. If I died, I'd regenerate right inside him, killing him instantly - in which case I'd be teleported right where I needed to be to acquire a new empire (since obviously, if I died, the last one I ruled got taken out by PCs).

[Ranting Fool]

Evil Overlord List (http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html)

5. The artifact which is the source of my power will not be kept on the Mountain of Despair beyond the River of Fire guarded by the Dragons of Eternity. It will be in my safe-deposit box. The same applies to the object which is my one weakness.

I did have a BBEG absorb an energy field larger then his own head. :smalltongue:

But in regards to the actual question: I thought a phylactery, like all items, had to be of masterwork quality and you don't seem to get many masterwork coins / rocks / snakes around the place :smallbiggrin:

[Beardbarian]

>PAO yourself in a bacteria-sized you
>PAO a bacteria in a human-sized one
>Dispel your PAO. Now there is a medium size bacteria.
>Make the bacteria your phylactery
>Put all your non-detection spells on the bacteria. Be sure that Detect Magic still works
>Dispel PAO on the bacteria

Now laugh at the PC who tries to beat the floor with a greatsword

[Arkhosia]

Make the planet your phylactery. :smallbiggrin:

[WebTiefling]

I'm running a campaign in which a Lich is the BBEG.

IRL, I have a solid metal D6 that I made myself from 1" square metal bar. It only gets pulled out for special rolls. It is totally badass if I do say so myself. The players love it.

It is the Lich's phylactery.

Eventually, they'll track it down, and when they do, they'll find it in a group of people gathered around a table playing some sort of dice game with papers and pencils. One of the people at the table rolls a die, and it catches the characters' attention.

It is a large iron die with eldritch markings of Undeath covering it.

[Newcomer]

I'm just wondering where this thread keeps its phylactery, because it just. will. not. stay. dead. :smalltongue:

[Arkhosia]

I'm just wondering where this thread keeps its phylactery, because it just. will. not. stay. dead. :smalltongue:

The forum is the phylactery. :smalltongue: