How does a paladin become a blackguard (without metagaming)?

[Wardog]

"A paladin falls, and becomes a blackguard" is quite a well established character/story trope.

However, actually doing so in-game seems to me to require a lot of meta-gaming, due to a blackguard requiring 5 ranks of hide, which it would be unlikely for a paladin to have.

I suppose you could role-play that the paladin gradually started using sneaky or underhanded tactics (taking ranks in Hide), fell as a result, and then decided to become a blackguard.

But if a paladin falls without having sufficient hide ranks, then he will have to take levels in yet another class in order to get them. I suppose this in turn could be justified either as training/a challenge to ensure the ex-paladin is worthy of blackguardom (is that a word?), or alternatively as "being forced to adapt to life as an outcase" (especially if going for rogue levels). But it still seems to me to be a rather clunky way to get some ranks in a skill that doesn't even seem to be an obvious part of the blackguard archetype, and so is more likely to result in annoyance and/or metagaming.

Does anyone share that view, or is there an obvious or justifyable way for a paladin or ex-paladin to get the blackguard requirements that I have missed?



Also, on a separate but related note: is the "evil outsider who was summoned by him or someone else" the source of the blackguard's power, or does it just act as a "recruiting agent" for a higher power?

[SowZ]

"A paladin falls, and becomes a blackguard" is quite a well established character/story trope.

However, actually doing so in-game seems to me to require a lot of meta-gaming, due to a blackguard requiring 5 ranks of hide, which it would be unlikely for a paladin to have.

I suppose you could role-play that the paladin gradually started using sneaky or underhanded tactics (taking ranks in Hide), fell as a result, and then decided to become a blackguard.

But if a paladin falls without having sufficient hide ranks, then he will have to take levels in yet another class in order to get them. I suppose this in turn could be justified either as training/a challenge to ensure the ex-paladin is worthy of blackguardom (is that a word?), or alternatively as "being forced to adapt to life as an outcase" (especially if going for rogue levels). But it still seems to me to be a rather clunky way to get some ranks in a skill that doesn't even seem to be an obvious part of the blackguard archetype, and so is more likely to result in annoyance and/or metagaming.

Does anyone share that view, or is there an obvious or justifyable way for a paladin or ex-paladin to get the blackguard requirements that I have missed?



Also, on a separate but related note: is the "evil outsider who was summoned by him or someone else" the source of the blackguard's power, or does it just act as a "recruiting agent" for a higher power?

Yeah, it is a stupid pre-req. Just ignore it completely. Or force the player to put any skill ranks earned from their first couple levels of blackguard into hide until they have five ranks. That would work if you wanted to bend the rules and not completely change them.

Also, since a blackguards spells are divine, I would assume the power they obtain would have to come from a pretty strong source. A god or high ranking devil/demon at the least.

[hamishspence]

I figure it's a recruiting agent.

Since it's a divine caster, it needs a divine source. I believe certain books (Faiths and Pantheons, for example) point out that even archfiends are not the "true" source of a blackguard or evil cleric's powers, when they're the patron- instead they are "channels" for the real sources.

Which generally are- the Outer Planes themselves.

Some paladin PRCs are rather Hide-friendly- and for more morally shady paladins- Grey Guard (Complete Scoundrel), and Shadowbane Inquisitor (Complete Adventurer).

What's really weird, is that there are blackguards who haven't admitted, even to themselves, that they are no longer paladins. Michael Ambrose, in Tome of Magic, and Gareth Cormaeril, in Waterdeep: City of Splendours.

[Coidzor]

Does anyone share that view, or is there an obvious or justifyable way for a paladin or ex-paladin to get the blackguard requirements that I have missed?

It is pretty silly, yeah.


Also, on a separate but related note: is the "evil outsider who was summoned by him or someone else" the source of the blackguard's power, or does it just act as a "recruiting agent" for a higher power?

I've seen it played both ways. I think it's intentionally left vague for that reason to provide some more flexibility.

[Urpriest]

Shadowbane Inquisitor is both one of the few ways to get a decent benefit out of Blackguard, and provides decent fluff justification: you're taking ranks in Hide because you're a Rogue/Paladin hoping to enhance both sets of abilities. You have these Roguish abilities because of your devotion to pursuing/destroying heretics. This desire could eventually drives you to become a Blackguard.

[Quietus]

I like how much assumption there is that a Paladin wouldn't be sneaky. What's wrong with the Paladin of Ehlonna, say, stalking through the woods, bow in hand, ready to mete out justice to those who defile the woods and the creatures who live there? More Ranger than Paladin, but still valid. Could be interesting.

Alternatively, perhaps a part of the "friendly contact" is a one-time offer to let the ex-Paladin swap out some skills (or feats) in exchange for their promise of servitude.

[Cerlis]

exactly, just cus the training a class naturally provides doesnt benefit a skill (its hard to learn how to hide well when you are busy learning about demons and weapon forms) doesnt mean you cant learn how. a wizard has an attack bonus of a fighter half his level. and a Paladin can learn to be sneaky if he wants to.


And i basically think that Those who'd be tempted rather than seek redemption through other means are the type of person who would already picked up ranks anyways.

[Lord Vampyre]

If you consider a Paladin who has progressed 10 levels and then falls. He then chooses to take one of the sneakier jobs "classes" since all of his other abilities are now useless. He has a wide selection now, but 1 level of ranger would be sufficient. Then he is contacted to join the Blackguard.

It doesn't have to be metagamed. The problem is that players normally have to metagame their builds to enter into their desired prestige classes.

[Midnight_v]

I like how much assumption there is that a Paladin wouldn't be sneaky. What's wrong with the Paladin of Ehlonna, say, stalking through the woods, bow in hand, ready to mete out justice to those who defile the woods and the creatures who live there? More Ranger than Paladin, but still valid. Could be interesting.

Alternatively, perhaps a part of the "friendly contact" is a one-time offer to let the ex-Paladin swap out some skills (or feats) in exchange for their promise of servitude.

Hmmm.... paladins generally don't have "Hide" on their skill list is why. Its not an assumption perse, just a costly thing to do that doesn't with the general beneits of being a paladin, one of which is heavy armor profiency, which nominally doen'st go with sneaking very well. Also they don't get many skill points and CC hide might be really expensive, as paladins don't have int required abilities and X2 skill points per level...
So I'd imagine most Fallen paladins take that next level of "creeper" and then get picked up by team evil: ftw.

[hamishspence]

Dragonbait in the Jeff Grubb & Kate Novak books (Azure Bonds, Song of the Saurials, Masquerades) is pretty sneaky- though that has more to do with being deceptive without outright lying, than hiding.

And in Tymora's Luck, a paladin advises a cleric to bluff when dealing with beings in Gehenna, and points out that it's not lying to let an enemy believe you're more dangerous than you really are.

As she put it "We're honest, not stupid".

[Keld Denar]

Given that Improved Sunder is a terrible feat, its a pretty good indicator that when a LG Pally takes Improved Sunder, he's probably only minutes from falling and converting to Blackguard.

[Coidzor]

I like how much assumption there is that a Paladin wouldn't be sneaky.

Pretty big assumption, since it comes to us from the developers of the game.
Class Skills

The paladin’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), and Sense Motive (Wis).

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Eh, I find the entire class 'Blackguard' to be silly in the extreme to begin with.

First off, prerequsites: Hide (5 ranks). Say what? A champion of evil, who is supposed to be clanking around in full plate is supposed to know how to hide?

Feats: Cleave, Improved Sunder, Power Attack.

Umm... arbitrary feat tax, much? Seriously, unless you build your character from level 1, you aren't getting this for a long time. That's 9 levels worth of feats right thar. I could see Power Attack, but the rest is just kicking a dog.

A Paladin without those feats at level 10 would be level 18 before being able to qualify, unless he took Fighter dip. That seems unnecessarily harsh to me.

And it is just as clear that the devs did not know what they were doing, and simply hit the Paladin class with a polarity ray. I mean... sneak attack? WTF?

Go on a quest, have an evil cleric cast Atonement on you, and be a Paladin of Tyranny/Slaughter. Done and done.

[Acanous]

There's a line in Blackguard about level 11 paladins who fall being allowed to immediately exchange paladin levels for blackguard levels. We at my gaming circle have decided that this bypasses the blackguard prerequisites completely. (As a lv 1 Paladin would have no way of becomming a blackguard, but you can end up Pal1/BG10 in this fashion)

Effectively, if you want your paladin to be a BG at lv 7, you need to take hide ranks, improved sunder and power attack. If you play paladin straight until lv 11, you're rewarded with the ability to go blackguard if ever you fall.

Also, aside from deterring early falling, prereqs are there so any non-paladin class can become a blackguard. Barbarians or Bards, for example.

[Mutant Bunny]

A fallen paladin could take a level in rogue, ranger, or bard, all of which have hide as a class skill and all of which have other useful skills for a fallen paladin who is on the run from his own order (if you think about it, tracking down fallen paladins is a pretty rational thing for an order of paladins to do, either to help them atone or to "otherwise ensure" that the crime is not repeated). A rogue can hide out in an urban environment, a ranger can hide out in the forest, and a bard could potentially hide in plain sight (especially after getting Disguise Self or Undetectable Alignment at second level).

A paladin falling is, imo, a great RPing opportunity, and a one- or two-level dip in another class after falling makes a lot of sense while the character deals with the question of whether he can or even wants to atone for what made him fall in the first place. Metagaming hardly seems necessary (especially if the evil outsiders have their own reasons to want to stop the BBEG).

[Midnight_v]

There's a line in Blackguard about level 11 paladins who fall being allowed to immediately exchange paladin levels for blackguard levels. We at my gaming circle have decided that this bypasses the blackguard prerequisites completely. (As a lv 1 Paladin would have no way of becomming a blackguard, but you can end up Pal1/BG10 in this fashion)

Effectively, if you want your paladin to be a BG at lv 7, you need to take hide ranks, improved sunder and power attack. If you play paladin straight until lv 11, you're rewarded with the ability to go blackguard if ever you fall.

Also, aside from deterring early falling, prereqs are there so any non-paladin class can become a blackguard. Barbarians or Bards, for example.

I actually like that quite a bit. Reminds me of how people say that about the CW Samurai: greatest class feature? Fall and become a ronin, with all samurai abilities intact, still not a tier jump though...

[Greenish]

First off, prerequsites: Hide (5 ranks). Say what? A champion of evil, who is supposed to be clanking around in full plate is supposed to know how to hide?RKV is supposed to know how to hide, too.

Though I agree, Blackguard requirements are silly.

[Treblain]

While we're on the subject of nonsensical requirements, why does the Invisible Blade need Point Blank Shot and Far Shot? Or was that a mistake fixed by errata? I can't remember.

[Greenish]

While we're on the subject of nonsensical requirements, why does the Invisible Blade need Point Blank Shot and Far Shot? Or was that a mistake fixed by errata? I can't remember.It wasn't errata'ed, and they're a vestige from the time it was a 10 level PrC with ranged focus. The editors, while pruning the class down, didn't change the requirements.

[Acanous]

I actually like that quite a bit. Reminds me of how people say that about the CW Samurai: greatest class feature? Fall and become a ronin, with all samurai abilities intact, still not a tier jump though...

It makes a lot of sense in context; Paladins who advance in another class Can no longer advance as paladins. Right there in the class description.

They have to adhere to a rather strict code of conduct, and are subject to a (Temporary) loss of class abilities until they expend resources getting an Atonement.

The Blackguard makes a mention about how dark deities love corrupting paladins. Around lv 11 you're a big dang hero, so having the forces of evil wave their entry requirements to recruit you in particular makes sense in world, and seems to go with RAI. RAW wise it might be a bit ambiguous, but I equate it to a ranger's TWF tree bypassing the prereq's. Fallen Paladins do this when becomming Blackguards.

[MeeposFire]

Shadowbane Inquisitor is both one of the few ways to get a decent benefit out of Blackguard, and provides decent fluff justification: you're taking ranks in Hide because you're a Rogue/Paladin hoping to enhance both sets of abilities. You have these Roguish abilities because of your devotion to pursuing/destroying heretics. This desire could eventually drives you to become a Blackguard.

It is also a combo that can lead you to not having any base class levels which is fairly neat.

[darksolitaire]

It is also a combo that can lead you to not having any base class levels which is fairly neat.

I think you probably have sneak attack from rogue rather then PrC than paladin can enter.

[faceroll]

I like how much assumption there is that a Paladin wouldn't be sneaky..

The cross-class nature of taking ranks in hide? Wearing full plate because you dumped dex due to MAD?

[Kaeso]

What's really weird, is that there are blackguards who haven't admitted, even to themselves, that they are no longer paladins. Michael Ambrose, in Tome of Magic, and Gareth Cormaeril, in Waterdeep: City of Splendours.

How does that even work in the DnD multiverse? Your primary ability becomes "smite good", your malev-o-meter is replaced by a benev-o-meter, and to other paladin you're basically a neon sign that says "WILL KICK PUPPIES 4 GP"

[hamishspence]

Blackguards don't "rise" for Good acts the way paladins "fall" for Evil ones- so the blackguard doesn't really need to worry about the benevol-o-meter.

As for Smite Good- imagine Miko's attack on Roy, only without her noticing that it's doing less damage than it really should.

Gareth has a feat (Veil of Cyric) that helps hide his evil aura- and represents the fact he's not accepted that he is evil.

Ambrose thinks his church is the one that's corrupt, and that his loss of paladin abilities is a test of the deity, rather than having to do with his morality.

It does require a lot of self-delusion on both their parts though.

[Aharon]

Fun fact: epic allows 21st level paladins to become blackguards, and you get an epic bonus feat for every 3 levels over the tenth. It's one of the few ways besides being dragonwrought to gain epic feats at levels lower than 20 (and you will need them to compete with any real casters...)

[SowZ]

Blackguards don't "rise" for Good acts the way paladins "fall" for Evil ones- so the blackguard doesn't really need to worry about the benevol-o-meter.

As for Smite Good- imagine Miko's attack on Roy, only without her noticing that it's doing less damage than it really should.

Gareth has a feat (Veil of Cyric) that helps hide his evil aura- and represents the fact he's not accepted that he is evil.

Ambrose thinks his church is the one that's corrupt, and that his loss of paladin abilities is a test of the deity, rather than having to do with his morality.

It does require a lot of self-delusion on both their parts though.

Sounds a lot like a character in this comic.

[hamishspence]

She did get an offer, but turned it down with considerable force.

That said, while blackguards who are deluded about themselves exist, they may be the exception rather than the rule.

[Person_Man]

By RAW you can pull it off with Paladin substitution levels. Specifically, the Gnome only Shadow Cloak Knight (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a), which adds Hide and Move Silently to class skill list, and grants Hide in Plain Site at level 6.

In general though, I agree with the consensus that all Blackguard pre-reqs should just be ignored. "Hmmm, perhaps I should take Improved Sunder in case I feel like becoming a Blackguard some day" is bull.

As a side note, a Paladin 11 who becomes a Fallen Paladin 1/Blackguard 10 is actually a decent Tier 3ish build for that ECL (assuming that your DM lets you use Blackguard spells from splatbooks, and allows you to retrain your feats when you fall). Full BAB, 4th level spells (similar to a Bard of that level, but with fewer uses per day), 4d6 Sneak Attack, Cha to Saves, Rebuke Undead (great for divine/devotion feats), a fiendish and undead servant, and other minor perks. Only problem is that you have no real place for your build to go beyond that, so it'd only be a good option for 1 shot campaigns.

[MeeposFire]

I think you probably have sneak attack from rogue rather then PrC than paladin can enter.

Nope mythic exemplar (dardallion). That gives me sneak attack.

Human Paladin 5/Mythic Examplar(Dardallion) 3/Shadowbane inguisitor 10/blackguard 5/X2

Notice you still get full paladin benefits (so all the extra goodies) with your blackguard class even though you traded in all your paladin levels.

[Thalnawr]

Well, there's friendly contact with an evil outsider, and then there's "friendly contact" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0419.html) with an evil outsider, if you know what I mean.

Seriously though, as part of your "friendly contact", the succubus could drain a level, and you voluntarily fail your save to regain the level. Then you go out and gain a level of rogue, ranger, or whatever sneaky class you desire that gives you enough skill points to put 5 into Hide right away. Voila, qualification for blackguard-hood.

[Midnight_v]

Only problem is that you have no real place for your build to go beyond that, so it'd only be a good option for 1 shot campaigns.

Oh... I don't know about that. I can think of a few, off hand there's the NAR Demonbinder. Here's a link to such a build: Blackguard Demonbinder (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19880278/Encounter_(VillainNPCMonsterTrap)_Resource_Thread? post_id=338739374#338739374)

and there's always: Ranger 2/ Paladin 1/ Blackguard 10/ Horizon Walker 7,

Finally, yes there's the Crusader. I'm betting there's more prc's that start with higher level spells.

[ZeroGear]

A note on the Sunder and Power Attack requirements:
It kinda makes sense if you tank about it. Paladins prefer capturing their foes alive in order to bring them to court. Sunder allows them to break the weapon of their foe, disarming them without hurting them. Also, it helps I destroying evil weapons/artifacts so they can no longer be used for vile purposes.
On the flip side, the same holds true for blackguards: take the enemy alive to be tortured, destroy good magic items, break the shields of foes, those are all things that a blackguard loves to do, and Power Attack helps them kill more effectively.

Also, a fallen Shadowbane Inquisitor is one of the deadliest forces there is. Not only can they exchange their paladin levels for blackguard levels, they get to KEEP their abilities despite falling! A level 10 Inquisitor/1 rogue/9 blackguard is a very scary thing to face.