What levels are Dinosaurs good at?

[Tvtyrant]

The above question, but I am adding in my own speculation here. I think dinosaurs tend to do well from levels 5-15, and then drop off the map as Balors and Dragons become common. They are good melee brutes, but they don't have a lot of extra abilities (casting or SUs) that would let them stay interesting or useful past that point. I put the lower level cap at 5 because low CR dinos like Fleshrakers and the Needling swarms tend to be boring alone (essentially they kill one person and then die) but are more useful in groups (less likely to kill someone, less likely to be rofled to death by a group of people). The same thing runs up the ladder IMO, with a trio of Megaraptors more interesting then one T-rex, and 3 T-rexs being more interesting then 1 spinosaurus.

[Coidzor]

swindlespitters with their AoE blindness ability can be interesting at lower levels than 5th as a sort of "support," IIRC.

Battletitans are pretty much the creme de la creme of dinosrawrdom is a "lowish" CR 16. That's the highest CR of dinosaur, IIRC, and they have 36 animal HD. So petering out around level 15ish or so seems about right, though they are still respectable melee brutes, for however respectable a melee brute is at that level of play.

[Dragonsoul]

All levels!

T-Rex--->Fiendish T-Rex---> Fiendish T-Rex Rogue 5!

[CodeRed]

All levels!

T-Rex--->Fiendish T-Rex---> Fiendish T-Rex Rogue 5!

How does a T-Rex sneak? Who cares? 3d6 SNEAK ATTACK CHOMP!!!!

[hamishspence]

Sounds exactly like the one in Jurassic Park- great example of a Raptor being sneak attacked by a Rex.

[Dragonsoul]

Wins Initiative--->Charge--> Bite---> Gives out t-shirt "I was Sneak attacked by a T-Rex and all I got was this crummy T-Shirt"

[Tvtyrant]

I suppose I could give Monster of Legend templates and the like to keep them interesting. Dire T-rex.

[Silus]

I suppose I could give Monster of Legend templates and the like to keep them interesting. Dire T-rex.

Dire Half-Dragon T-Rex of Legend?

[CodeRed]

Dire Half-Dragon T-Rex of Legend?

Mega-Ultra T-Rex? No. Shh. He is legend.

[Tvtyrant]

Mega-Ultra T-Rex? No. Shh. He is legend.

I think you mean the Horrorsaurus (http://drmcninja.com/archives/comic/21p45/). :smalltongue:

Alternatively, Horrid Dire Legendary Fleshraker for instant gimping.

[Silus]

I think you mean the Horrorsaurus (http://drmcninja.com/archives/comic/21p45/). :smalltongue:

Alternatively, Horrid Dire Legendary Fleshraker for instant gimping.

I counter with Advanced Horrid Dire Shadow Velociraptors.

Yeah, 9/10 concealment in shadows. Just think of a pack of these.

[faceroll]

PROBLEM: Ray of Stupidity. Standard action fells even the biggest animal with a single pewpew.

SOLUTION:
Awakened Ur-Priest Velociraptors.


There will be blood.

[Tvtyrant]

How OP would an anthropomorphic fleshraker be?

[Silus]

How OP would an anthropomorphic fleshraker be?

Not as bad I think as an Awakened Velociraptor Shadowdancer/Scout...

It's be like Pitch Black, but with Raptors.

[JaronK]

I think at level 20 an Awakened Shadow Dark Magebreed Warbeast Battletitan could still be a scary thing to deal with, especially with a few class levels. I'm thinking Swordsage with Darkstalker, since he'd come with a significant initiator level. Even two levels would be enough to be terrifying.

JaronK

[CodeRed]

Not as bad I think as an Awakened Velociraptor Shadowdancer/Scout...

It's be like Pitch Black, but with Raptors.

So? Good? As in actually entertaining to watch?

As to the Horrorsaurus, Swallow Whole is silly. That just gives your opponents time to plot in a safe place that you can't Bite and or Claw them. Also, they may be ninjas carrying explosives. 'Nuff said.

Furthermore, Were T-Rex. The Lycanthrope template in the MM specifically only requires that the base creature be Humanoid or Giant and that the template for the Were be of the Type - Animal.

Now if there was only someway to infect a Warforged with Lycanthropism. That way I could live out my fantasy of playing a Were T-Rex Robot as an homage to Beast Wars......

[Ksheep]

Dragon Magazine #318 added a number of extra dinos, ranging from the lowly Compsoganathus (CR 1/2, travels in groups ranging from 1 to 12) to the Liopleurodon (CR 15, solitary or pairs). It also includes a couple low-level pterodactyls, the Rhamphorhynchus (CR 1/4, ranging from 1 to 10 per group) and the Pteranodon (CR 2, groups ranging from 1 to 10).

[Greenish]

Alternatively, Horrid Dire Legendary Fleshraker for instant gimping.Shame Dire isn't a template (in official books).

Yeah, 9/10 concealment in shadows.You mean Total Concealment, that is to say, 50% miss chance.


Also, they may be ninjas carrying explosives. 'Nuff said.Now I need to figure out a build focused on getting swallowed and exploding the enemy from inside.

Oh wait, swordsage.

[FMArthur]

Aren't there "Dragons" in a couple books that possess neither wings nor spellcasting?

[Coidzor]

Aren't there "Dragons" in a couple books that possess neither wings nor spellcasting?

Linnorms or Lindwyrms or something like that, yeah. And Rage/Ambush Drakes.

But those have dragon HD.

[Tvtyrant]

I think at level 20 an Awakened Shadow Dark Magebreed Warbeast Battletitan could still be a scary thing to deal with, especially with a few class levels. I'm thinking Swordsage with Darkstalker, since he'd come with a significant initiator level. Even two levels would be enough to be terrifying.

JaronK

I'm not sure this is anything like a Dinosaur anymore then a Monk 2/Cleric 18 is a monk :smallwink:

[Big Fau]

How OP would an anthropomorphic fleshraker be?

1/3 of a Druid.

[Greenish]

How OP would an anthropomorphic fleshraker be?I can get Pounce, Trip and Grapple fit into a 6th level build, but I'm not sure how to get natural poison (the sort you don't need to apply and reapply) on your attacks.

[Zaq]

My inner child is yelling that dinosaurs are ALWAYS GOOD NO MATTER WHAT.

My outer adult is forced to agree, but not at all reluctantly.

I agree that templated dinosaurs are a one-way ticket to awesome hilarity.

[Tvtyrant]

I can get Pounce, Trip and Grapple fit into a 6th level build, but I'm not sure how to get natural poison (the sort you don't need to apply and reapply) on your attacks.

Well... There is always VoP ToGI for that. So you can give up magic items to get a similar effect, or play the Fleshraker. Fleshraker: It almost makes a Monk work.

[Urpriest]

PROBLEM: Ray of Stupidity. Standard action fells even the biggest animal with a single pewpew.

SOLUTION:
Awakened Ur-Priest Velociraptors.


There will be blood.

Those godless heathens!

I Approve.

[Greenish]

Well... There is always VoP ToGI for that. So you can give up magic items to get a similar effect, or play the Fleshraker.Oh yeah, Touch of Golden Ice. You don't need to take VoP for it, but you'd have to be exalted. Well, at least it's for a good cause.

[Talya]

Not as bad I think as an Awakened Velociraptor Shadowdancer/Scout...

It's be like Pitch Black, but with Raptors.

I object to raptors having animal intelligence. All our theories about raptor intelligence, what they were capable of, we weren't even close! They were smart. They were smarter than dolphins or whales. They were even smarter than primates!

[Tvtyrant]

I object to raptors having animal intelligence. All our theories about raptor intelligence, what they were capable of, we weren't even close! They were smart. They were smarter than dolphins or whales. They were even smarter than primates!

Indeed. It was greater brain efficiency that made it work. They simply used their small brains better then the bigger mammalian brains do. Work smarter not better writ large! lol they might even figure out kicking over garbage cans for scraps!

[CodeRed]

I object to raptors having animal intelligence. All our theories about raptor intelligence, what they were capable of, we weren't even close! They were smart. They were smarter than dolphins or whales. They were even smarter than primates!

Also, Raptors apparently looked very silly. They were completely covered in multi-colored feathers from head to toe. What purpose did they serve? Our best guess is for being flamboyant for the purpose of mating - much like the peacock.

[BobVosh]

Also, Raptors apparently looked very silly. They were completely covered in multi-colored feathers from head to toe. What purpose did they serve? Our best guess is for being flamboyant for the purpose of mating - much like the peacock.

Multicolored? Awesome. They now get locked in that special place in my mind of things that look awesome until you learned what color they were. Like Greek statues/architecture when it was still painted.

[ericgrau]

How does a T-Rex sneak? Who cares? 3d6 SNEAK ATTACK CHOMP!!!!
Dip shadowdancer to hide in plain sight.

"Why does that tree's shadow have teeth"... sneak attack chomp, improved grab, run away 200 feet per round!

PC: So who wants to fetch Bob?

Rogue or not, I think you could have a lot of fun with the turbo pounces, grapples and tramples. Engage from up to 120 feet away. Or watch a pack of megaraptors track and sneak up on the PCs, form a huge circle, then leap in from all sides.

[NNescio]

Dip shadowdancer to hide in plain sight.

"Why does that tree's shadow have teeth"... sneak attack chomp, improved grab, run away 200 feet per round!

PC: So who wants to fetch Bob?

Rogue or not, I think you could have a lot of fun with the turbo pounces, grapples and tramples. Engage from up to 120 feet away. Or watch a pack of megaraptors track and sneak up on the PCs, form a huge circle, then leap in from all sides.

It must have been some kind of tactical geni-

...

...

[beat]

[Ravens_cry]

Also, Raptors apparently looked very silly. They were completely covered in multi-colored feathers from head to toe. What purpose did they serve? Our best guess is for being flamboyant for the purpose of mating - much like the peacock.
They probably also helped with insulation in some of the colder parts of the world, dinosaur bones even been found in Antarctica.

[ericgrau]

Hmm, the build is forming, yes. Dip barbarian for more speed. Get spring attack. Sneak up as a t-rex with hide-in-plain sight. <Sproing> chomp <sproing> gone.

[Runestar]

Does anyone realise that by the rules, a were-battletitan template is just cr+5? :smalleek:

[hamishspence]

Multicolored? Awesome. They now get locked in that special place in my mind of things that look awesome until you learned what color they were. Like Greek statues/architecture when it was still painted.

Might depend on if they were stealth hunters or not. The multicoloured plumage might be to help them blend in with a background, such as a forest, or plains foliage.

[BobVosh]

Does anyone realise that by the rules, a were-battletitan template is just cr+5? :smalleek:

I think someone is forgetting the HD you have to take as well...

[Runestar]

I think someone is forgetting the HD you have to take as well...

Yeah, the +5cr includes the 36 animal HD. This isn't ECL used on a character, this is cr when creating an npc. :smallamused:

[BobVosh]

Yeah, the +5cr includes the 36 animal HD. This isn't ECL used on a character, this is cr when creating an npc. :smallamused:

36 animal HD is that little CR? Wow, I thought only oozes had it so good.

[Renegade Paladin]

It must have been some kind of tactical geni-

...

...

[beat]
CREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED! :smallfurious:

[Runestar]

36 animal HD is that little CR? Wow, I thought only oozes had it so good.

Not really, it is a quirk with the lycantrope creation guidelines.


Challenge Rating
By class level or base creature, modified according to the HD of the base animal: 1 HD or 2 HD, +2; 3 HD to 5 HD, +3; 6 HD to 10 HD, +4; 11 HD to 20 HD, +5; 21 or more HD, +6.

Sorry, my mistake, should be cr+6, not +5. And the template can be applied to any animal, which extends to dinosaurs as well, weird as it seems. :smallredface:

[Tvtyrant]

Werefleshrakers, werebattletitans and werelegendarytigers assemble!

[BlueInc]

I object to raptors having animal intelligence. All our theories about raptor intelligence, what they were capable of, we weren't even close! They were smart. They were smarter than dolphins or whales. They were even smarter than primates!

Awakened Velociraptor. Take levels of druid.

Raptor on a raptor shooting raptors.

Clever girl.

Squeal.

[Urpriest]

Not really, it is a quirk with the lycantrope creation guidelines.



Sorry, my mistake, should be cr+6, not +5. And the template can be applied to any animal, which extends to dinosaurs as well, weird as it seems. :smallredface:

Also, the base creature has to be within one size category, so you need a decent Large base creature.

[mykelyk]

Also, the base creature has to be within one size category, so you need a decent Large base creature.

I think I remember a crab...

[JaronK]

Monsterous Crab Were Battletitan at, what, CR9? Oh that's just not right.

JaronK

[CodeRed]

Monsterous Crab Were Battletitan at, what, CR9? Oh that's just not right.

JaronK

Or is it perfectly right? So right that it in and of itself makes everything else wrong by its rightness? No? Ok then.

[Qwertystop]

Shame Dire isn't a template (in official books).


Is there any consistency in the differences between animals and the Dire versions? If so, you could extrapolate a template.

[hamishspence]

While Dire creatures tend to be one size larger, there are exceptions. Tigers and Dire Tigers, are both Large, for example.

[Qwertystop]

While Dire creatures tend to be one size larger, there are exceptions. Tigers and Dire Tigers, are both Large, for example.

Is any Dire animal larger than Large? If not, it could be:
Size: 1 category larger than the base creature, unless the base creature is Large or larger, in which case the size is the same.

[BobVosh]

Campaign: Start at level 1, normal stuff killing gobbos or what have you working for a wizard who seems off, but doesn't detect as evil or does anything super outrageous. A transmuter who loves his experiments, and trying to make the next owlbear.

At level 3 he mentions needing to kill the group of weres in the forest as they have become rather vicious. He requests a corpse of one to experiment a bit.

Level 5: He wants a that damn crab to further his collection of rare or unique creatures. I assume several PCs will die at this point to TDC. This will help fuel their rage.

Level 6-9 his experiments got loose, go to kill/clean up after them. Throw in something else with these things coming everyone once in a while. After talking to the wizard eventually it should be realized he did...he finally introduced a creature that will last as an insane wizard experiment forever...the Monsterous Crab Were Battletitan.

All life on the planet should be afraid, very afraid.

[Qwertystop]

Campaign: Start at level 1, normal stuff killing gobbos or what have you working for a wizard who seems off, but doesn't detect as evil or does anything super outrageous. A transmuter who loves his experiments, and trying to make the next owlbear.

At level 3 he mentions needing to kill the group of weres in the forest as they have become rather vicious. He requests a corpse of one to experiment a bit.

Level 5: He wants a that damn crab to further his collection of rare or unique creatures. I assume several PCs will die at this point to TDC. This will help fuel their rage.

Level 6-9 his experiments got loose, go to kill/clean up after them. Throw in something else with these things coming everyone once in a while. After talking to the wizard eventually it should be realized he did...he finally introduced a creature that will last as an insane wizard experiment forever...the Monsterous Crab Were Battletitan.

All life on the planet should be afraid, very afraid.
What's the That Damn Crab? I assume it's a forum meme, like the Epic Salmon*, but what does it actually do?
*Which I know nothing about either

[NNescio]

Is any Dire animal larger than Large? If not, it could be:
Size: 1 category larger than the base creature, unless the base creature is Large or larger, in which case the size is the same.

Dire Elephants, Dire Elks, and Dire Rhinoceroses.

Also Dire Sharks and Dire Snakes, but the base creatures can sometimes go up to those sizes.

[hamishspence]

Is any Dire animal larger than Large? If not, it could be:
Size: 1 category larger than the base creature, unless the base creature is Large or larger, in which case the size is the same.

There's Gargantuan dire elephants, in MM2 (compared to Huge elephants).

EDIT: Swordsaged.


What's the That Damn Crab? I assume it's a forum meme, like the Epic Salmon*, but what does it actually do?
*Which I know nothing about either

"Monsters of the Tides" on the WOTC site has the overpowerful monstrous crab:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a

which was toned down very slightly in Stormwrack.

[BobVosh]

What's the That Damn Crab? I assume it's a forum meme, like the Epic Salmon*, but what does it actually do?
*Which I know nothing about either

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a
Monstrous crab. Highlights: CR 3, Vermin (tons of immunities), Full Attack: 2 claws +10 melee (1d8+9), Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+19
Thats right, a 19 grapple. At CR 3. With a full attack that should hit once at least for approximately 13.5 damage.

How much HP did your characters pack at level 3? OH wait, I forgot something important:
Special Attacks: Constrict 1d8+9, improved grab, powerful claws
Thats right he hits you he grapples for another 13.5 damage!
So 27 damage against the high ac members of the party, 40.5 against the wizard types. It is a TPK in crab form.

Oh and I'm assuming, I admit, that his +19 to grapple is enough to win. This is usually a safe assumption.

[BIGMamaSloth]

Doesn't the base creature of a were templated creature need to be either humanoid or giant though? :smallconfused:

[JaronK]

Were Battletitan Half Minotaur Water Orc Warrior 1? That's, what, CR 7-8?

JaronK

[Runestar]

Doesn't the base creature of a were templated creature need to be either humanoid or giant though? :smallconfused:

Just slap on the half-troll template (fiend folio), it turns the base creature into a giant. :smallwink:

[ericgrau]

One time I was in a party trying to hijack some camels from our pursuers. They were fiendish dire camels who made a dark pact with their lesser riders. A few diplomacy checks later to find a loophole in their contract and we managed to get away from them.

[The Succubus]

What's the ECL of a Raptor with Bard levels? Not that I'd dream of playing one and devouring audiences that dislike my singing....

>.>
<.<

[Greenish]

Is any Dire animal larger than Large?There's a gargantuan dire tiger in The Forge of War. An entire squad of hobgoblins rides it in a howdah.

[HunterOfJello]

What's the That Damn Crab? I assume it's a forum meme, like the Epic Salmon*, but what does it actually do?
*Which I know nothing about either

A creature with the stats mentioned above by BobVosh that is extremely dangerous to find in the wild and extraordinarily dangerous to find near any source of water. A 4 member party will likely have 2 members killed outright and the last 2 grappled and dragged into deep water where they'll drown to death while being constricted.

It's a CR 3 monster that an unoptimized level 5 party could be easily TPK'd by.

[Runestar]

Is there any consistency in the differences between animals and the Dire versions? If so, you could extrapolate a template.

It doesn't seem so much like a template, and more of simply advancing the base animal to max HD (which then becomes the weakest version for the dire animal in question), in addition to tacking on additional stat boosts over and above those from the size increase.