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View Full Version : How to run kingdom building and sandbox games - Help!



Silus
2011-08-03, 06:54 PM
Ok, so my experience with sandbox games has been....bad. It was usually the 'ol "Sandbox with hidden rails" format. But I'm going to be running my own campaign soon and I want to step away from the hidden rails sandbox, but due to my experiences with those types of games, I need a little help.

1. How do I avoid rails in my sandbox?
2. What are some things I should employ to make the game go smoothly aside from trying to plan every little thing that may or may not happen?
3. How can I help make the game not suck?

In addition, there's going to be a kingdom building element in the campaign (more like colony building), and I'm unsure how to deal with this. I've never tackled anything like this before and links to guides, advice or anything of that nature would be greatly appreciated.

Coidzor
2011-08-03, 07:20 PM
If you can, look up discussions of the Kingmaker adventure path that Paizo came up with, while it's not a true sandbox from my understanding of the topic, there's been a fair bit done with it over the years that would at least provide some useful information on the kingdom building end of things and at least something for the sandbox surrounding the kindgom too.


1. How do I avoid rails in my sandbox?

Come up with several personalities in the general area & their goals & what their initial relationships with one another (if any) and the PCs will be. Have a few prominent hooks to get their attention, but be prepared to do something else if they don't take the hooks & have a basic sort of timeline for what happens if the PCs don't interact with the plot. Like, say, in the Red Hand of Doom adventure/campaign, there's a fairly clear picture of what's going to happen to that valley if the PCs decide to just pick up and leave or go chasing bullettes for a few weeks.


2. What are some things I should employ to make the game go smoothly aside from trying to plan every little thing that may or may not happen?

Improvisation when something unexpected happens (usually you can get away by just using the time between sessions to do some planning, but YMMV).

Basing the progression of events in the game world on the desires of powerful and influential people and organizations and having them react to the actions of the PCs when it merits it.

You don't need to know exactly what the response of the neighbouring kingdom will be if the PCs accidentally drop a dragon on the crown prince in the process of killing it so that it doesn't hatch a plot to take over the world, but if you have an idea of the personality of the king of that country, then you can probably wing what his first reaction would be if the PCs remain immediately on hand and how he'd proceed if they weren't.


3. How can I help make the game not suck?


Much like the answer to 2, you just need to retain the flexibility to improvise and let personalities and decisions shape the terrain, so that even the forces the PCs don't know about yet will be influenced by what happens.

Broad strokes rather than filling in the entire map is also a popular technique, and if you know the general info of a region, filling in the particular details of a particular small town the PCs might wander into shouldn't be too difficult.

RoninFrosty
2011-08-03, 11:08 PM
Note: all of what I'm about to say is based on my experiences, opinions, and perceptions of D&D. I am in no way claiming to be "right".

This may upset several people, but my thoughts are that a true sandbox isn't really feasible without writing out an entire setting, and even then they end up being fairly rigid. The only way to maintain a "fluid" game is to be able to adjust, because as much as you pray that your PCs don't slay the only person who knows the vizier's secret, they will certainly do so with the slightest motivation.

To that end, I'd recommend leaving the rails in, but hiding them. For instance, have an encounter drawn up, say a bruiser, two archers and a mage type that you intend to have ambush them on the road just outside the capital city. Oh, your players decided to stay in the capital city for a few days? Well, then they're brigands who ambush them as they exit the tavern they drink at. They skip the capital city altogether? They're "treasure hunters" that are trying to cash in on the ruins the party's exploring.

Repurposing material that you've already prepared is, in my experience, key to keeping the game moving without bogging it down. It's also good to have 1-3 random encounters drawn up for situations where you need time to think. They decide to skip the capital but you had an important MacGuffin there? Highway robbers keep them busy for 20 minutes while you brainstorm. Rolling percent dice randomly is good for making it look like you had this planned, and you're not pulling it out of your posterior.

One of the biggest things I can say for a sandbox, though, is to never say no. If they want to try to assassinate the king... let them. Make sure before they try that there will be consequences, though, and that they WILL live with them.

Kaun
2011-08-03, 11:48 PM
I would say be reactive. Wait to see what the players want and build off that rather then trying to figure it out in advance.

Secondly don't have any of the NPC's plans be too over bearing, that way if the Pcs dont want to get involved they dont have to.

Thirdly make sure your players know about the "kingdom building" aspects before character creation. Letting them know after is more or less rails.

With regards to the logistics and economics of running a kingdom i find there are to basic rules.

1: Keep it simple. = Unless your players are really into the hole mathmatical side of economics just keep it basic.
If one of them is trying to establish a military baracks and soldiers to man it dont work out the costs for all the individual elements just tell them it will take "x" ammount of time to set up and cost "y"gold + "z"gold per soldier they want. Then maybe an ongoing cost to maintain. If you start getting into the costs of feeding them every week and ongoing weapon repairs per quater and so on and so on it starts to feel like math homework rather then a game for fun.


2: Keep it consistent. = In these kind of games players hate when the factors change with out reason, for example;

If 6 sessions ago you told them that it was going to cost 50gp to relocate the unit of troops from town "a" to town "b" then it should cost the same amount to do it this session.
When time or costs keep changing for no apparent reason players can become anoyed and stop putting effort into making plans.
If any of the standard factors change for any reason try not to be too mysterious about it just tell them. Half the time it can end up being an adventure or encounter in itself.

bloodtide
2011-08-03, 11:57 PM
1. How do I avoid rails in my sandbox?

Basically, don't do it like a TV show/movie/novel or such where things MUST happen. Take Star Wars(everyone's seen that right), just look at all the railroading: the droids crash like five feet from the Skywalker farm and get bought by them, they MUST escape from the town and they absolutely MUST get captured by the Death Star(as they MUST absolutely rescue the princess) and so forth. That's all railroading. Just think of Luke or Han as a character in a game: 'zap! the tractor beam gets them...absolutely nothing they do or try will free them'

You want to keep every thing 'open', until it happens in the game.



2. What are some things I should employ to make the game go smoothly aside from trying to plan every little thing that may or may not happen?

Don't 'plan' every little thing. Try to map out some potential ways things might go, but nothing set in stone. Make up a bunch of NPC's, monsters, encounters and such....but without too much fluff that locks them into any one place/event. Also any game book is great for stuff you need, like NPC's or monsters and such. The magazine Dungeon was great for this.

Be ready with 'events'. If you might find yourself in a corner or not ready or such...have something to toss out. Treasure, a trap, a monster or such. Whatever your group likes.



3. How can I help make the game not suck?

Keep the game moving. always have some event to toss at the group.



In addition, there's going to be a kingdom building element in the campaign (more like colony building), and I'm unsure how to deal with this. I've never tackled anything like this before and links to guides, advice or anything of that nature would be greatly appreciated.

There is almost nothing for this. The old D&D rules Cylopedia is what I use.

Silus
2011-08-04, 01:09 AM
1: Keep it simple. = Unless your players are really into the hole mathmatical side of economics just keep it basic.
If one of them is trying to establish a military baracks and soldiers to man it dont work out the costs for all the individual elements just tell them it will take "x" ammount of time to set up and cost "y"gold + "z"gold per soldier they want. Then maybe an ongoing cost to maintain. If you start getting into the costs of feeding them every week and ongoing weapon repairs per quater and so on and so on it starts to feel like math homework rather then a game for fun.


2: Keep it consistent. = In these kind of games players hate when the factors change with out reason, for example;

If 6 sessions ago you told them that it was going to cost 50gp to relocate the unit of troops from town "a" to town "b" then it should cost the same amount to do it this session.
When time or costs keep changing for no apparent reason players can become anoyed and stop putting effort into making plans.
If any of the standard factors change for any reason try not to be too mysterious about it just tell them. Half the time it can end up being an adventure or encounter in itself.

Most of the campaign that I've "planned out" is basically going to be that the players get offered a very lucrative, but very dangerous job of assisting a colonization project through what is essentially a Stargate to a mostly untouched, mostly unspoiled alien planet. The objective, more or less, is to set up a beachhead of sorts and start harvesting resources while keeping the workers and settlement safe.

On the topic of resources, the only thing I have in mind (Aside from lumber, exotic foods, spices, ect.) is Starmetal, though I know that is crazy expensive stuff (Adamantite for example).

Obviously they're going to want to explore, so I figure I'll need to make a map (I'm thinking something in Photoshop with layers for each area so I can just toggle a layer when they get to that location), and come up with a proper set of encounters. I was toying with the idea of fallen civilizations and xenotech (Clarke's Law #3) but not sure how I'd implement it. Golems and undead? *Shrugs*

Only three I have currently (this is going to be all Pathfinder mind you) is something to do with Moonflowers (have to clear out a grove of them to allow for logging?), a raid by a pack of Akata (who will run when they either get "food" (prisoners) or when 1/2 of the force is killed) and a large Aurumuorax (Tack on a few of the Pathfinder's Giant Creature templates) as that creature that is, at the time, too powerful to kill but will mark as an achievement of sorts. The Aurumuorax so far is the closet thing I have to a BBEG though.

Kaun
2011-08-04, 01:19 AM
Most of the campaign that I've "planned out" is basically going to be that the players get offered a very lucrative, but very dangerous job of assisting a colonization project through what is essentially a Stargate to a mostly untouched, mostly unspoiled alien planet. The objective, more or less, is to set up a beachhead of sorts and start harvesting resources while keeping the workers and settlement safe.

On the topic of resources, the only thing I have in mind (Aside from lumber, exotic foods, spices, ect.) is Starmetal, though I know that is crazy expensive stuff (Adamantite for example).

Obviously they're going to want to explore, so I figure I'll need to make a map (I'm thinking something in Photoshop with layers for each area so I can just toggle a layer when they get to that location), and come up with a proper set of encounters. I was toying with the idea of fallen civilizations and xenotech (Clarke's Law #3) but not sure how I'd implement it. Golems and undead? *Shrugs*

Only three I have currently (this is going to be all Pathfinder mind you) is something to do with Moonflowers (have to clear out a grove of them to allow for logging?), a raid by a pack of Akata (who will run when they either get "food" (prisoners) or when 1/2 of the force is killed) and a large Aurumuorax (Tack on a few of the Pathfinder's Giant Creature templates) as that creature that is, at the time, too powerful to kill but will mark as an achievement of sorts. The Aurumuorax so far is the closet thing I have to a BBEG though.

Ow i remember reading a blog from Tycho i think about how he was doing travel and exploration in one of his game all to do with a sort of movement token resorce that looked really good.

I will see if i can dig up the article.

Edit: This (http://arsludi.lamemage.com/index.php/94/west-marches-running-your-own/) is all so good for a read if you have never looked at it.

Silus
2011-08-04, 01:40 AM
Don't 'plan' every little thing. Try to map out some potential ways things might go, but nothing set in stone. Make up a bunch of NPC's, monsters, encounters and such....but without too much fluff that locks them into any one place/event. Also any game book is great for stuff you need, like NPC's or monsters and such. The magazine Dungeon was great for this.

Be ready with 'events'. If you might find yourself in a corner or not ready or such...have something to toss out. Treasure, a trap, a monster or such. Whatever your group likes.


Haha, well this is good to hear. First game I ran was like 90% improv, both because I knew from experience that the PCs would throw a monkey wrench into my plans and because I wanted to throw off the guy that seemed to guess every move every DM made. It's always interesting to see what the players do when you pull something out that even you weren't expecting.

"What do you mean the hallway is corkscrewed and there are Evolved Shadows oozing from the walls?"

Totally Guy
2011-08-04, 02:16 AM
Allow the players some creative input into the setting prior to your prep.

Ask your players to tell you what they are interested in with regard to that setting. Ask the players what the characters will be motivated to do.

Create situations that interact with the setting elements that your players are interested in. And create conflicts that stand in the way of the motivation.

In play reward persuing the motivation and allow them to change it over time to reflect character development.

Ravens_cry
2011-08-04, 02:23 AM
The kingdom building in Kingmaker was fun, but some of the later campaign stuff once we were put on the rails was not and neither were the Fetch Quests.
Besides, buying a campaign path can be expensive. But fear not, a 3rd party publisher has compiled all the OGL Kingmaker rules into some much cheaper PDF (http://paizo.com/store/downloads/jonBrazerEnterprises/v5748btpy8hy4&source=search).
I haven't used it myself, but if you just want to have the characters running a country of their own design in your own world, it's probably a better option. than buying the Adventure Path

LansXero
2011-08-04, 01:31 PM
While Kingmaker itself may not be the alternative, the types of quests in the two first adventures (which are all I have :( ) are a very good idea to keep the sandbox interesting. Not necesarily those, but the concept of populating the "colony" with suitable questish stuff. Also the city building and kingdom events add a layer of relevance to ingame time and player actions that I think would do very well.