A character I'd like to play later.

[Tegu8788]

I've searched the web, and seen a build for a Paladin/Warlock that sounds cool to me, however, I am a complete and total noob, and my only information is second hand at best. This character is meant to be a 5th man, assisting on each of the roles. On scales of primary to secondary roles, I'd like the class to be a 1.2 Defender, 1.4 Striker, 1.6 Leader, and 1.8 Controller. If that's possible. Optimization is not key, versatility is. I'd like the character to have as heavy armor as possible and a shield, axe or sword for weapon less important which, teleportation is much preferred for flavor mostly, a single heal and basic buff all the leader I need, and a simple debuff and AoE for Controller. I'd like to have a couple melee strikes and at least one ranged attack. I'd like to avoid martial classes if possible, and stick to the more exotic races. I expect this will require a hybrid and multiclass to pull off successfully. I plan on reading quit a bit and play a character or two before starting this character.

Any suggestions of what classes work well together? Races that are good for this? I'm aware that being a jack of all trades makes me a master of NONE. I understand hybrids are complex and the only real way to truly screw up. I know my knowledge of the rules is incomplete. This is why I'm asking all those wiser. Thanks go to MeebosFire for helping me so far. Here is my inspiration build: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/25056957/Crimson_Legion_Champion_Tiefling_Hybrid_PaladinWar lock__Questing_Knight__Legendary_Sovereign?pg=1

[NecroRebel]

Well, you'll fairly obviously be Cha-heavy with this build, so any race that gets a racial bonus to Charisma is going to be ideal. Tieflings have lots and lots of cool racial feats, so they're the obvious choice. My second idea would probably be human, with Heroic Effort in place of the extra at-will power.

Going Defender/Striker/Leader is a pretty tall order under any circumstance. Your best bet is probably to be a Paladin|Warlock hybrid, then multiclass to a Leader later to pick up a healing power. Bard would probably work for that; you can get Majestic Word, a Charisma-based heal, once per day with a multiclass feat, and then one or more of their buffing powers with additional feats. Adding Control in there is going to be somewhat difficult, though Warlock powers can do single-target control well, and they can also provide some AoE capability.

One of the Paladin Hybrid Talents available with a feat gives plate proficiency, so heavy armor isn't a problem. Getting implements for both Paladin and Warlock might be troublesome, however; you either will have to buy one of each or go for Arcane Implement Proficiency Heavy Blades (which is available due to Swordmages) and pick up one of the swords that Paladins can treat as implements. This means that either you more-or-less just don't get a shield, as you have to use both hands for your sword and rod, or you have to use certain specific heavy blades.

Getting teleportation shouldn't be too bad; many Feylock powers teleport you, so that's easy enough to get ahold of, and you should probably choose the Fey Pact for that reason.

A fun trick (though it's more Striker than Defender) with a Paladin|Warlock is to use Divine Challenge on an enemy, Warlock's Curse them, then hit them with Eyebite. They take -2 to attack against people that aren't you, take damage if they don't attack you, and can't see you to attack you. The implications should be obvious.

[Blazen]

Don't hybrid characters get the implements for both classes? If so, then why not use a holy symbol, rod or wand?

[NecroRebel]

Don't hybrid characters get the implements for both classes? If so, then why not use a holy symbol, or dagger?

...Yes they do. Apparently I missed and/or forgot about that part. There's no real reason not to just wield a pact weapon and/or paladin-capable weapon, then, since you don't need a feat for it.

[Dimers]

Getting implements for both Paladin and Warlock might be troublesome, however; you either will have to buy one of each or go for Arcane Implement Proficiency Heavy Blades (which is available due to Swordmages) and pick up one of the swords that Paladins can treat as implements.

Paladins can use holy symbols as implements. As a hybrid character under the new rules, you know how to use warlock powers via the holy symbol, since you can use any implement power via any implement.

Kinda twisted, actually. "I shall shrivel your soul with the hunger of Hadar -- behold, O accursed one, my Symbol of Serenity!"

I don't actually know whether there is a "symbol of serenity". It just sounded funny.

[NecroRebel]

Actually, taking Arcane Implement Proficiency in heavy blades might be a good idea anyway; unless you're a specific race, the earliest holy-symbol-capable heavy blade, hammer, mace, or axe is level 8, and even then your available weapon properties are severely limited. With the feat, your options open up a ton without having to have your melee weapon in one hand and an implement in another, and saves quite a bit of money as well since you don't have to maintain both a level-appropriate weapon and implement.

[Tegu8788]

I do like the sound of a forced fail. I'd like to clarify, that build started me, but if there is a better combo of different classes, I'm open to that. That said, I still have questions. Does the hybrid Paladin not have a healing spell or two? And would I not be able to make my sword my pactblade for Warlock powers and wear a holy implement, of would Swordmage be a better MC solution, possibly adding the Swoordmage Warding power to boost AC? Would using the Bard MC still let me MC other classes, or does that require a hybrid build?

[Dimers]

Actually, taking Arcane Implement Proficiency in heavy blades might be a good idea anyway; unless you're a specific race, the earliest holy-symbol-capable heavy blade, hammer, mace, or axe is level 8, and even then your available weapon properties are severely limited. With the feat, your options open up a ton without having to have your melee weapon in one hand and an implement in another, and saves quite a bit of money as well since you don't have to maintain both a level-appropriate weapon and implement.

Does save some money, certainly, but a holy symbol doesn't take up any room. You can wear it as a belly jewel, tattoo it on your forehead, embroider it on your sock, whatever you like.

Also note that as long as you pick only implement powers for the paladin side, you'd only use a weapon for melee basic attacks, which might not be a big focus for this build anyway. Oh, there's a good point for Tegu: your weapon damage die-type really won't mean beans if you don't have high Strength.

[Blazen]

Not necessarily. Both Paladins and Warlocks get weapon powers that use Cha for their attack and damage rolls. On top of that both classes get a Cha based MBA.

[NecroRebel]

I do like the sound of a forced fail. I'd like to clarify, that build started me, but if there is a better combo of different classes, I'm open to that.

Warlock and Paladin hybrid together quite well. Both are Charisma-based, both have minor-action class features that persist and so don't eat the action every round, and the Paladin's Defender feature doesn't require them to use a Paladin power to work (as for example the Fighter mark does). You won't find many better combos than that.


That said, I still have questions. Does the hybrid Paladin not have a healing spell or two?

Paladins have a few healing powers, but not many, and not very strong ones. Many of those are Str-based as well. Hybrid Paladins don't get the Lay on Hands feature, so they aren't even as good at healing as a non-hybrid Paladin.


And would I not be able to make my sword my pactblade for Warlock powers and wear a holy implement, of would Swordmage be a better MC solution, possibly adding the Swoordmage Warding power to boost AC?

Pact blades have to be light blades, which is annoying because those tend to be inferior weapons to heavy blades. Pact swords are Eladrin-only, and pact hammers are dwarf-only (no one else can use them as implements).

You don't have to multiclass to Swordmage to take Arcane Implement Proficiency in heavy blades. That feat, in Arcane Power, lets you choose an implement type that another class uses and use it as an implement. Swordmages use heavy blades as implements, so with the feat you can use heavy blades as implements. Multiclassing or hybridizing Swordmage probably wouldn't be a very good idea, as Paladins hybrid better and you'd gain little from MC SM.


Would using the Bard MC still let me MC other classes, or does that require a hybrid build?

You can only take one multiclass unless you're a main-class, non-hybrid Bard. However, hybrids can still take a multiclass feat. Hybridizing with Bard probably wouldn't be worthwhile given your goals; you'd lose almost all Defender ability. The multiclass, however, isn't bad.

[Dimers]

Does the hybrid Paladin not have a healing spell or two? And would I not be able to make my sword my pactblade for Warlock powers and wear a holy implement, of would Swordmage be a better MC solution, possibly adding the Swoordmage Warding power to boost AC? Would using the Bard MC still let me MC other classes, or does that require a hybrid build?

You can get a little healing out of the paladin, but it's not really their thing. They're better for preventing damage than healing it. Hybrid paladins don't have (and can't get) lay on hands, so you'd need to pick healing powers.

You can't multi-multiclass unless you start with bard as your only class. Hybrids can't and bard MCs can't.

Kurald Galain once pointed out that you should hybridize only to meet a very specific goal (though in context that might have referred only to optimization, which you've said you don't need to go crazy with). If your goal is to make the most versatile fifth character, hybridization still might not be the way to go. Having bard as your base class would let you use Charisma for all your non-basic attack rolls, via one feat with no prerequisites, which in turn would let you pick powers from multiple classes to play lots of secondary roles. Alternatively, start with a fighter (well known as a great defender and fair striker) and add some warlord or runepriest for leadery goodness. Your power picks for fighter can be split between striking and control, with your class features leaning you heavily toward tanking -- or you could take the Martial Power build options that are more strikerish and pick defender and control powers.

Edit: I've been ninja'ed twice in a half hour. I think I'll just be quiet now. :smallredface:

[Tegu8788]

Ok, let me see if I can sum up what's been said. A Paladin/Warlock works well with a CHA powered attacks and minor actions to keep things rolling. A Bard is also CHA based but wouldn't be a useful MC class, perhaps switching? According to the new rules I can take a holy symbol, tie it between a stat useful Teifling's horns, and use it for both my Paladin and Warlock powers with one feat, unless I can find a weapon that works for both as well. The CHA hybrid Paladin can't really heal, so I'll need to get a Leader for that. Not looking for a great heal, I understand that's not a Defender thing normally, but once or twice an encounter is all I expect to use it. As for a buff, I understand the Marks and Curses debuff effect act similar to PC buffs, but I thought I remember that those close to a Paladin got a buff of some kind. A Warlock gets lots of teleportation powers, Feylock gets me even more than I think I need.

It sounds like Paladin, Warlock, and Bard are the three classes that will help me the most. What combination of those will be the most powerful in my very versatile way? There is a difference between not optimized and the broken builds I've heard hybridizing can create. Would a Bard that MCs in Paladin and Warlock get the plate armor, shield, marks, teleportation, curses, and damage output, or a Paladin/Bard MC Warlock a better thing?

Imagine you see the big bad, and he's great at everything. Assuming he isn't the final boss in the game, there is a chance he may join the group. Upon joining the good guys, he get's hit by the nerf bat. I want the nerfed build, so he'd still be strong and versatile, but far from a soloer. If the Defender goes down, he could step up. When the boss shows up, he works like the Striker. When the area is flooded with minions, he can use a burst or blast to help clear things out. If there is a attack on the whole party, he can toss a heal out to help PCs HP back up. If I have to lose saving throws to get a heal and buff, so be it. If I lose some single target damage to get a multi-target attack, so be it. If I lose a little DPR so that I can take a hit, and lose a few total HPs so I can hit a bit harder, then that's great.

Am I off my rocker? Did I get anything right in my summary?

[Treblain]

Take Arcane Implement Proficiency (heavy blades) and go wild with Eldritch Strike. Take White Lotus Riposte and White Lotus Master Riposte, too.

Divine Challenge an enemy, Eldritch Strike them, slide them two squares (+1 from Rushing Cleats) hopefully into a position that leaves them flanked by you, but still adjacent to you. If they attack one of your allies, they take divine challenge damage. If they attack you, they take Cha mod damage and then you get to Eldritch Strike them again as an immediate reaction. If they run, opportunity attack with Eldritch Strike, since it's a melee basic!

Take whatever feats to boost your Divine Challenge damage you can. The rest of your build is open, so you still have room to MC and get some healing. If you want to teleport, take the 10th level warlock utility Ethereal Sidestep and then get some items that boost teleport distances. If you want to teleport enemies, take the warlock paragon feat Flitting Shadows.

[NecroRebel]

Am I off my rocker? Did I get anything right in my summary?

Some of it... Things you appear to have misunderstood...


A Bard is also CHA based but wouldn't be a useful MC class, perhaps switching?

A Bard would be a useful multiclass class for your purposes, but not a useful hybrid class. Hybrids and multiclasses are two very different things.


As for a buff, I understand the Marks and Curses debuff effect act similar to PC buffs, but I thought I remember that those close to a Paladin got a buff of some kind.

The Warlock's Curse is more a buff to you than a debuff to enemies. It gives you bonus damage, but doesn't normally hinder enemies at all. The Paladin's Mark, on the other hand, is a debuff. Some paladin powers do give assorted minor buffs or debuffs to allies or enemies, but not many.


It sounds like Paladin, Warlock, and Bard are the three classes that will help me the most. What combination of those will be the most powerful in my very versatile way? There is a difference between not optimized and the broken builds I've heard hybridizing can create. Would a Bard that MCs in Paladin and Warlock get the plate armor, shield, marks, teleportation, curses, and damage output, or a Paladin/Bard MC Warlock a better thing?

A Bard wouldn't get plate armor, the shield, a useful mark (it would be once per encounter; not much good), much teleportation, a useful curse (again, once per encounter), or damage output of a Paladin|Warlock hybrid. A Paladin|Bard hybrid with MC Warlock would have somewhat better healing, getting use of Majestic Word once per encounter, but would lose out on damage to a large extent, as at best their Warlock's Curse would work only once per encounter as well and wouldn't be able to take many Warlock powers.

Your best bet, for the parameters you listed, would be a hybrid Paladin|Warlock who takes a multiclass feat for Bard; that would give you the Paladin's main Defender feature, full access to Paladin powers, the Warlock's main damage-booster feature, full access to Warlock powers, and a once-per-day Majestic Word for a heal. Other heals can be picked up with Paladin powers.


Imagine you see the big bad, and he's great at everything. Assuming he isn't the final boss in the game, there is a chance he may join the group. Upon joining the good guys, he get's hit by the nerf bat. I want the nerfed build, so he'd still be strong and versatile, but far from a soloer. If the Defender goes down, he could step up. When the boss shows up, he works like the Striker. When the area is flooded with minions, he can use a burst or blast to help clear things out. If there is a attack on the whole party, he can toss a heal out to help PCs HP back up. If I have to lose saving throws to get a heal and buff, so be it. If I lose some single target damage to get a multi-target attack, so be it. If I lose a little DPR so that I can take a hit, and lose a few total HPs so I can hit a bit harder, then that's great.

The Paladin|Warlock with MC Bard can do all of these things with proper power choices. The Paladin mark can help them draw attention if the main Defender goes down, they can deal quite good damage due to their Warlock abilities. Warlocks have some AoE powers that can be used for crowd control, although many of them are dailies. The Bard MC feat, some Paladin powers, and possibly additional Bard powers if you choose power-swap feats can help heal. You also lose very little potential; you are almost entirely dependent on Charisma for all of your main stats, with Wis and Int being useful as well. It's hard to break that particular combination due to the two sides of the hybrid sharing a primary attribute.

[Dimers]

The Paladin|Warlock with MC Bard can do all of these things with proper power choices.

Seconded.

You could be one of those rare characters who doesn't always raise the same two attributes (!!), since Charisma is the only vital one. In terms of defense scores, Int is better to raise than Wis ... you might also choose to boost Con, since that'll give you more hit points, better Fortitude, and benefits on a few bard and warlock utility powers.

If you find you need more teleportation than your one-or-two warlock powers provide, you can go hybrid paragon to pick up Warlock Pact Boon as a hybrid talent. If you need more healing than your one-or-two paladin powers give you, consider using powerswap feats to pick up bard healing powers.

[Reluctance]

Dimers touched on something that bears special attention. Paladin|Warlock works for a few specific reasons. Playing it as a generalist risks watering you down, which is a major pitfall for hybrids to begin with.

Multiclass feats are nice for giving you access to more options. The bonus skill is gravy, but it's the ability to dip another class' power/feature that really makes them shine. Bards can grab as many multiclass feats from as many classes as they care to. Straight classed bards are leaders with controller leanings, while appropriate use of multiclass can give them the occasional mark, damage spike, or other borrowed class goodie. I'd suggest human for this build, since lots of multiclass feats will obviously take lots of feats, but bards with crazy multiclassing are the best "I can do a little bit of everything" without sacrificing too much of their core competency.

[malachi]

If you're allowed to use Dragon Magazine material, you could play a bard and take the Resourceful Magician paragon path (from Dragon 383 or 376. Don't remember which), which would let your bard learn powers from any arcane class it has a multiclass feat for whenever it would learn a new bard power (take controller-y powers from wizard, striker-y powers from sorcerer/warlock, and the occasional defender-y power from swordmage, or leader-y powers from Artificer/Bard). If you do that, it'd be best to keep your int and cha both high (because combat virtuoso won't make powers you learn with the paragon path key off of charisma). This build won't be as good a striker or defender (can only get 1/enc or 1/day striker feature, and only 1/enc defender features - although the paladin's is the best to multiclass for IMO), but you'll be a better leader/controller than the Paladin|Warlock build.

If you do the Paladin|Warlock thing and multiclass Bard for healing, you'll only get a 1/day heal. If you multiclass Warlord for Inspiring Word, you might be able to take a feat from MP or MP2 that gives you an extra use of Inspiring Word per encounter (so you'd go from a daily use to a 1/enc use and a 1/day use. Probably), and Inspiring word doesn't have any stat associations so you'd be able to use it just fine (and scream at your allies when they're hurt. That's always fun).

[Tegu8788]

So, Paladin/Warlock Hybrid and Bard Multiclass seems to work from what I'm hearing, if I take power swap I can get another heal, and use Bard and Warlock encounter powers for a control here or there. For some reason I have it in my head that I can only swap powers that are of the same type, and only four times in heroic, but doing that qualifies you for that MC class. Could/should I use that trick to have a Paladin/Warlock PP the Bard path to pick up all the Arcane class powers? I'd already have my armor and shield, weapons, and basic powers.

If Eldritch Strike works as a basic attack and OAs, do I need to boost my Str? Or will my pumped Cha bonus carry me? That sounds like a very good power for me.

[NecroRebel]

So, Paladin/Warlock Hybrid and Bard Multiclass seems to work from what I'm hearing, if I take power swap I can get another heal, and use Bard and Warlock encounter powers for a control here or there. For some reason I have it in my head that I can only swap powers that are of the same type, and only four times in heroic, but doing that qualifies you for that MC class. Could/should I use that trick to have a Paladin/Warlock PP the Bard path to pick up all the Arcane class powers? I'd already have my armor and shield, weapons, and basic powers.

Generally, you can retrain powers freely into another of the same type and equal or lower level whenever you level up. However, that's only within your class, with the Hybrid rules there are some other restrictions, and you aren't actually considered part of the class you multiclassed into for power choices. To pick up Bard powers, you'd need to take more feats, and could get at most 3 (1 encounter, 1 utility, and 1 daily). You can't just get Bard powers through retraining.

You can't take more than a few Arcane class powers. With the Paladin|Warlock/Bard build, you'd be able to pick Paladin and Warlock powers as normal for a Hybrid, and you'd be able to get a few Bard powers by taking multiclass power-swapping feats. Giving up the benefits from an actual Paragon Path is virtually never worthwhile for added side-class powers. Avoid it.


If Eldritch Strike works as a basic attack and OAs, do I need to boost my Str? Or will my pumped Cha bonus carry me? That sounds like a very good power for me.

Since you'd normally basically only use Str for basic attacks anyway, and with Eldritch Strike (or Virtuous Strike, though Eldritch is better) you can use Cha for your basic attacks, no, there's pretty much no reason to increase your Str.

Note that if you take one of the two MBA-capable powers you aren't taking other at-will powers that might otherwise be useful. Getting a Warlock at-will with better rider powers than the 1-square slide is the only real reason to take Virtuous Strike as your Paladin at-will.

[Tegu8788]

So, with my Paladin|Warlock/Bard build, I'm not likely to get more than 2 heals per encounter from the Bard, and I'm ok with that. Would, if I took all the power-swap feats for the Bard, does that qualify me for the Bard Paragon Path Resourceful Magician? That sounded like it would be useful for this build, based on that comment. Would it become MAD quickly though?

So if I get a Cha MBA, I can basically dump Str, but would it be worth it to raise Str somewhat and use the At-wills for other powers? I'm basically only using Cha from what I can tell for most of my powers, so I don't think I'd be getting MAD if I boost Str for some of the Paladin powers. I remember thinking Con would also be useful, am I correct in that?

[NecroRebel]

So, with my Paladin|Warlock/Bard build, I'm not likely to get more than 2 heals per encounter from the Bard, and I'm ok with that. Would, if I took all the power-swap feats for the Bard, does that qualify me for the Bard Paragon Path Resourceful Magician? That sounded like it would be useful for this build, based on that comment. Would it become MAD quickly though?

You'd qualify for Resourceful Magician even if you didn't take any power-swap feats. You'd be a Bard from taking the first Bard multiclass feat, and you'd be a Warlock because it's one side of your hybrid, so you'd qualify for the paragon path. It would more or less completely suck for you, since you don't and can't have any of the non-bard arcane multiclass feats and so wouldn't get any benefit whatsoever from the first L11 feature or the L16 feature, but you would qualify for it.


So if I get a Cha MBA, I can basically dump Str, but would it be worth it to raise Str somewhat and use the At-wills for other powers? I'm basically only using Cha from what I can tell for most of my powers, so I don't think I'd be getting MAD if I boost Str for some of the Paladin powers. I remember thinking Con would also be useful, am I correct in that?

That's up to you. Unfortunately, both Con and Str increase your fortitude defense, so increasing both isn't very helpful, and both are used for powers on one of your hybrid sides, so there isn't a clear benefit to one over the other. Str would slightly improve your basic attacks if you didn't take one of the at-will basic attack powers or the Melee Training feat, while Con would slightly improve your hit points, healing surge value, and number of healing surges. Con is probably more valuable.

[Tegu8788]

So no to Resourceful Magician in this build then. Maybe another time.

How much does Melee Training feat boost my MBA? Or is there some other feat that would let me substitute Str for something else? Or would having that Cha mod At-Will just simplify things a great deal? I imagine it would be my go to melee at-will power anyway, and I can ignore the slide if I choose to, correct?

[MeeposFire]

You don't take melee training you take a power or other feat for that. If you are a tiefling you take wrath of the crimson legion. Otherwise take the cha based mba radiant power from divine power.

[NecroRebel]

Melee training lets you choose a stat other than Str and use it for melee basic attacks, so it would boost your basic attacks by the difference between your Str and your Cha.

Choosing one of the basic-attack-equivalent powers would just save you the feat and give you a little extra bonus on your opportunity attacks. It may or may not be the right choice. Then again, depending on how you play your character, you might not get many opportunity attacks as is; if you play primarily as a ranged Striker, for instance, having a decent MBA isn't that important.

If you cause forced movement, you can move the target fewer squares than the power could let you.

[Tegu8788]

I was planning on trying to pick up a power for every use, a melee attack, a ranged attack, a heal, an AoE, a buff, a debuff, a defender power, a move power. Pick up high level armor and weapons. I'm more likely to be in a melee than at range, using the defenderlock aspects primarily, but given my racial advantage against bloodied targets, I plan on blasting a few ranged enemies my allies have whittled down while keeping my marks/curses active. I figure I'll be teleporting from big bad to lesser big bad until they are all down, feels cooler than running. I don't plan on doing a nightcrawler/jumper style attack, I have heavy armor and a shield, I plan on using them. Control can come from defender and warlock encounter powers, leader from paladin and bard. Racial Cha/Con sounds solid, take a Cha mod MBA, and the rest should, with help, fall into place.