My complaint about Bard PrCs

[Treblain]

So I've reached a conclusion. All of the 3.5 bard multiclassing and prestige class options completely fail to do what they should do. Furthermore, it's It's a failure of the designers not properly integrating the bard into the system's multiclassing options.

Simply put, the bard is a jack of all trades. It has four strengths: decent combat ability, spells, skills, and music. Now, I know that properly made, a bard can be really good. I am also aware that there are some prestige classes that make for great bards. But the bottom line is that due to their multiple areas of expertise, bards lose more from changing class than any other class. Yes, obviously prestige classes often specialize at the cost of versatility. But the bard is already spread so thin that this justification doesn't work. Lots of other classes can take a PrC or multiclass and still have their basic class characteristics intact. But with bards, you'll find that it's nearly impossible.

Let's look at the common optimal or at least decent options for bards who don't want to be single-classed.

1. Sublime Chord: Yes, it's a great class, despite the fact that it's full of empty levels. But that's not because it's a well-designed bard prestige class. It's only good because it basically turns them into a sorcerer, and sorcerers are generally better than bards. It also has major skill requirements, which limit the skillmonkey potential greatly.
2. Lyric Thaumaturge: This one's okay, I guess. It makes sense that a class like this exists. This is a classic "exchange some abilities for others" class. But as I said earlier, this kind of class is inherently unfair for bards, because they have more to lose by specializing.
3. Bardsader/Bardblade: This one angers me greatly whenever I see it recommended for bard players. Not because it's bad, and not because I have any problem with ToB. It's because it's not a bard. It's just a ToB class with optimized Inspire Courage. And Song of the White Raven doesn't even function properly with Inspirational Boost, meaning you only get half the benefit of the feat.
4. Virtuoso and Seeker of the Song: these are the main "improved bardic music" classes. Virtuoso's songs are sub-par and Seeker's aren't worth trading spell advancement for. Virtuoso can advance Sublime Chord casting, but if that's the only real solution, the classes should have been combined in the first place.
5. War Chanter: increased martial ability, okay music, no spellcasting, fewer skills. The problem I have with this one is the same as the bardsader/bardblade; it really only requires one level of bard (maybe 3 for Song of the Heart), and it's suboptimal to take any more, since the spellcasting is just wasted. Maybe if it altered the bard's spell list to more combat-focused spells instead of not progressing it at all, it would be okay as a bard class.
6. Any other base class: You know how full casters dread losing even a single spellcasting level by multiclassing? It's even worse for bards, because they lose spellcasting and music advancement.

And beyond these, there are lots of prestige classes that bards can qualify for, and claim that bards would be good candidates for them. They sound okay at first. Spymaster, Exemplar, Dread Pirate, Bladesinger, Spellsword, Unseen Seer...

In summary, if a class progresses spellcasting but isn't designed specifically for bards, it will make a terrible bard build. If a class progresses any other abilities that a bard character might like, but not spellcasting, it will make a terrible bard build. If a class manages to do both, it will either do it half-assed and be too weak, or else alter your build to the point that you might as well not be a bard.

Conclusion: Bards are simply too pure for this sinful earth. If the rest of the D&D system touches them, it dilutes their essence and ruins them.

Is it unreasonable to expect WotC to make it feasible for bards to multiclass? Sorcerers have no class features aside from spellcasting, and yet they saw fit to create PrCs that advance spellcasting while giving other abilities. So clearly, they weren't operating under the theory that all PrCs should give something while taking away something else. So there's no reason why they couldn't have created classes that improved some bard class abilities without worsening others. :smallsigh:

That's all the complaining I've got. But I am now imagining a straight-classed bard waving his guitar angrily and shouting at a Sublime Chord and a Bardsader "YOU GUYS HAVE CHANGED! IT USED TO BE ABOUT THE MUSIC, DUDES! YOU TRAITORS, YOU MULTICLASSING SELLOUTS! NOT GROOVY!":smallbiggrin:

[Saintheart]

Bardadin? Initiate of Milil, Devoted Performer, etc don't screw the hell out of the bard's music.

[Greenish]

If you want to be a bard, with a balanced blend of what bard does and is, I have good news for you: the bard class has full 20 levels! That's right, you don't have to PrC!

That there isn't a single PrC that would basically be bard+ is good design, in my opinion.

[Tvtyrant]

If it was simply a better version of the original it wouldn't be a PRC, it would be an upgrade. Its one of the reasons I dislike caster prcs; they are inevitably better then the class rather then changing the focus of it. A Sublime Chord gives up being a Bard for being a Sorc; which makes it a good prc IMO.

Edit: Greenish is my spirit animal. Listen to his swordsagey ways.

[Silva Stormrage]

I agree with the above poster, just because there are some prestige classes that are the base class + awesome class features doesn't mean that every prestige class should be like that.

Bardic music is what you get for STAYING in bard. If you got a prestige class that had full bardic music progression + bardic spell casting + skill monkey, then what is the point of playing a bard 20?

[CodeRed]

There isn't anything BETTER than Bard 20 for getting everything you want as a bard. I'm with Greenish and Tvtyrant on this. If a prestige class was just a bard but better then it would be poorly designed. I'm also agreeing with the Sorceror or Wizard analogy. Those two classes are so blah and poorly designed with spells being their only class feature that any prestige that has full casting is automatically better. That's poor design. Good design is about choices, what do you give up from A to take from B?

[bendrew64]

I feel the same way about the Monk; there is a huge lack of PrCs for being a straight-up Monk that really capture what its about.

Now its clearly a different situation, what with the Bard being all over the place, unable to find a good niche in regards to a PrC, but there is a serious lack of PrC love for classes who yearn to be a little different without sacrificing all their goodies.

[Greenish]

I feel the same way about the Monk; there is a huge lack of PrCs for being a straight-up Monk that really capture what its about.Yeah, Fist of the Forest would otherwise match, but it's actually competent (moreso with non-monk entry) so it doesn't really capture what monk is about. :smalltongue:

[Talya]

First of all, I mostly agree with you. Bard is a pure class, and I believe it functions best when one stays with bard for a full 20 levels. Sublime Chord is good for a more bardly flavored sorcerer, but it's more sorcerer than it is bard. And I simply do not like any of the others. Bard is my favorite class and it's best when it's not multiclassed. However, I will disaree with you in one respect...


But the bottom line is that due to their multiple areas of expertise, bards lose more from changing class than any other class.

*cough*druid*cough.




6. Any other base class: You know how full casters dread losing even a single spellcasting level by multiclassing? It's even worse for bards, because they lose spellcasting and music advancement.



Bardadins are absolutely great. They do lose some spellcasting, however, unless you find a way to mix divine bard with prestige paladin and the same mixed features.

Anyway, they do have several options to advance their music outside of prestige classes. Chaos Music (Feat) boosts bardic music by 4 levels. A vest of legend boosts it by 5. And they stack. This means your sublime chord can suddenly have 19th level bardic music. Yeah, you still lose a few skills, but most classes lose SOMETHING when they multiclass in any way.

[Greenish]

*cough*druid*cough.Well, they do have that one PrC that fully advances all of the big three.

Excellent demonstration of why base class+ PrCs aren't always the best idea.

[Talya]

Well, they do have that one PrC that fully advances all of the big three.

Excellent demonstration of why base class+ PrCs aren't always the best idea.

I think I know what that class is, but I've never played Eberron, and so have never paid it any attention.

[HunterOfJello]

Bards don't have PrCs that are completely superior to simply taking levels in their own class up to Bard 20, but Druids are pretty much in the same boat. Druids only have Planar Shephard, which is just plain OP, and Moonspeaker. Most people choose to avoid both of them and don't have a strong desire to go into Fochlucan Lyricist either.

Bards have gotten a huge leg up from the splatbooks in the form of feats and class options though. I would go so far to say that Bards go from low Tier 3 to high Tier 3 based on the benefits they've gained from feat selection and opportunities outside of core. It may be a shame that they never got PrCs that satisfy you, but they did get plenty of other benefits (unlike some other classes).

[ericgrau]

6. Any other base class: You know how full casters dread losing even a single spellcasting level by multiclassing? It's even worse for bards, because they lose spellcasting and music advancement.
I will address this one not because it is the biggest problem but because it lends itself most nicely to a homebrew solution.

Combat Bard PrC:
Requires: Casts 2nd level bard spells (level 4 or 5, losing 1 BAB) + martial weapon proficiency
Benefit: Full bard spell and song progression but not bardic knowledge. Except for level 1 of the PrC which gives a fighter bonus feat instead. Full BAB. D8 hit die. 4 + int skill points per level and contains the mobility bard skills such as tumbling and sneaking, plus ride, handle animal and perform.
Notes: Inspire courage pulls his attack bonus to above full BAB by character level 8, but that's fine because he doesn't get rage, greater weapon focus, etc. And he lost 2 caster levels. While this focuses the bard on martial combat, he still gets some skills and spells too; it doesn't even grant better armor.

Divine Casting Bard PrC:
Requires: Casts 2nd level bard spells (level 4 or 5) + casts 2nd level divine spells.
Benefit: Full bard spell and song progression but not bardic knowledge. Full casting progression in the divine class. Medium BAB. D6 hit die. 4 + int skill points per level and a focus on charisma, religion and spell skills, plus perform.
Notes: With all the cleric and bard buffs this becomes similar to the combat bard. Both classes are a bit behind otherwise, but you have a lot of low level spells plus songs to multi-buff stack. In particular bard adds heroism to the standard cleric options plus a lot more versatility.

Arcane Casting Bard PrC:
Requires: Casts 1st level bard spells (level 2 or 3) + casts 2nd level arcane spells
Benefit: Full bard spell, song and bardic knowledge progression. Full casting progression in the arcane class. D4 hit die. 4 + int skill points per level and a focus on spell skills plus stealth, bluff, use magic device and perform.
Notes: This is a bit of a mystic theurge. He's a spell level behind a real full caster and his bardic stuff is likewise 3-4 levels behind.

[Acanous]

there's two bardic PrCs that actually function well, although they specialize you somewhat;
Heir of Syberis and Legendary Leader.
The first gives you some SLA's and advances your bard casting while also giving a bonus feat and some sweet tattoos. The second gives you some awesome ex abilities, and can be combined (VIA feats) with bardic music. While this will nerf your bard music level, it lets you make a Rally check as part of the bardic music, which can greatly benefit a party.

The first is great for Eberron bards who want to add a few high level SLA's to their portfolio, the second is AMAZING for Charismamancy bards who want a devoted fanbase.

[Amnestic]

So, what you're basically complaining is that there isn't a Bardic Planar Shepherd?

Doesn't seem like an issue to me. If you want to be a Bard, be a Bard. If you want to specialise, be a Bard X/Prestige Class Y. Options aren't a bad thing to me.

[Treblain]

If it was simply a better version of the original it wouldn't be a PRC, it would be an upgrade. Its one of the reasons I dislike caster prcs; they are inevitably better then the class rather then changing the focus of it. A Sublime Chord gives up being a Bard for being a Sorc; which makes it a good prc IMO.


It's not just caster PrCs, though. Lots of prestige classes are strict improvements on base classes with minimal losses. You can't say that PrCs were all designed to be tradeoffs, because the bard clearly got the short end of the stick.

It's a lot like the many "trap" options in D&D. You pick bard, thinking you can be an all-around character. The supplements lead you to believe there are a myriad of options for bards. 'Hey, my bard is clever and sneaky! This Spymaster class looks good for me!' 'Hey, my bard has a lot of skills! This Exemplar would be cool!' While neither are great classes in the first place, they're better for rogues than bards, because bards make use of more subsystems and the opportunity cost is higher. Yeah, I can play a Bard 20, but that doesn't change the fact that my heart sinks every time I read a class description and realize that there's no way a bard would be able to take advantage of its abilities.

[ImperatorK]

I like Fochlucan Lyrist very much. For just 3 class levels sacrificed on Druid 1/Rogue 2 you get a Bard that has 17th level Bard casting and bardic music + 11th level Druid casting and full attack.
Planar Shepard isn't Druids only option. There's always Arcane Hierophant. For only 3 levels in Wizard you get 17th level Druid casting, Wild Shape and upgraded AC + 13rd level Wizard casting.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

So I've reached a conclusion. All of the 3.5 bard multiclassing and prestige class options completely fail to do what they should do. Furthermore, it's It's a failure of the designers not properly integrating the bard into the system's multiclassing options.

Simply put, the bard is a jack of all trades. It has four strengths: decent combat ability, spells, skills, and music. Now, I know that properly made, a bard can be really good. I am also aware that there are some prestige classes that make for great bards. But the bottom line is that due to their multiple areas of expertise, bards lose more from changing class than any other class. Yes, obviously prestige classes often specialize at the cost of versatility. But the bard is already spread so thin that this justification doesn't work. Lots of other classes can take a PrC or multiclass and still have their basic class characteristics intact. But with bards, you'll find that it's nearly impossible.

Let's look at the common optimal or at least decent options for bards who don't want to be single-classed. You give up power in one area, for power in another area. That's the concept of a PrC. If it was inherently better, why bother with straight Bard?


1. Sublime Chord: Yes, it's a great class, despite the fact that it's full of empty levels. But that's not because it's a well-designed bard prestige class. It's only good because it basically turns them into a sorcerer, and sorcerers are generally better than bards. It also has major skill requirements, which limit the skillmonkey potential greatly. You say it limits the skillmonkey potential, I say it requires it. And full casting... what's not to love about that? It advances music, it advances Bardic Music (albeit at 1/2 progression, but that's still plenty), and the songs do actually have uses. Increasing CL is handy for Polycheese and several other tricks. Song of Timelessness is NOT mind-affecting, but IS a Will save, which makes it nastier than it's otherwise sub-par saving throw would indicate. Freeze the lieutenant in place, gank the mooks, surround the lieutenant, then let go with a curb stomp in place.

And again, 9th level spells. Need I say more? Sure, you get the casting of a sorcerer, but you still get more skill points, a more generous skill selection, and more bardic music. What more do ya want, a great honkin' neon sign?


2. Lyric Thaumaturge: This one's okay, I guess. It makes sense that a class like this exists. This is a classic "exchange some abilities for others" class. But as I said earlier, this kind of class is inherently unfair for bards, because they have more to lose by specializing. Which is, in my opinion, how a PrC should be. As Grennish and the others have said.

3. Bardsader/Bardblade: This one angers me greatly whenever I see it recommended for bard players. Not because it's bad, and not because I have any problem with ToB. It's because it's not a bard. It's just a ToB class with optimized Inspire Courage. And Song of the White Raven doesn't even function properly with Inspirational Boost, meaning you only get half the benefit of the feat. Does a rose by any other name smell as sweet? Technically, Miko isn't a Samurai, she's just a Monk/Paladin. But she is, in character, a Samurai. A Bardblade/Bardsader does bard-like things... they sing, their music produces supernatural effects, they inspire their allies, they wade forth into combat. It's a classic Skald... you know, the original Bards some three THOUSAND years ago, who are the gold-standard everyone else has been trying to live up to? Classes are irrelevant to how you play your character. They are simply a mechanism for stating what your character can do. Which, in this case, is sing and kick ass.


4. Virtuoso and Seeker of the Song: these are the main "improved bardic music" classes. Virtuoso's songs are sub-par and Seeker's aren't worth trading spell advancement for. Virtuoso can advance Sublime Chord casting, but if that's the only real solution, the classes should have been combined in the first place. I would somewhat agree with Singer of the Song, but not with Virtuoso. Even then, being able to heal an amount of damage equal to a Perform check? Dude, that's like being able to cast a Heal spell by expending a bardic music use!


5. War Chanter: increased martial ability, okay music, no spellcasting, fewer skills. The problem I have with this one is the same as the bardsader/bardblade; it really only requires one level of bard (maybe 3 for Song of the Heart), and it's suboptimal to take any more, since the spellcasting is just wasted. Maybe if it altered the bard's spell list to more combat-focused spells instead of not progressing it at all, it would be okay as a bard class. STRONGLY disagree with you here. This guy is the epitome of 'inspiring not just one, but an ARMY'. Song of the Legion. It's just... probably one of the most powerful abilities in the game, barring the most extreme Batman Wizard cheese. You have 100 1hd chintzy mooks, and you're facing an orc horde. Blast a power chord, and now you have 100 1hd chinzy mooks with a BAB equal to your HD, AND backed up with DFI, has the damage output to one-shot their opponents, now that they can't possibly miss them. Then jumps in front with his guitar, using it as an axe as well as an axe, and bashes heads with the best of 'em. How in ANY way is this NOT a Bard?

6. Any other base class: You know how full casters dread losing even a single spellcasting level by multiclassing? It's even worse for bards, because they lose spellcasting and music advancement. As others have pointed out, there's ways to make this work for you. Initiate of Mill means still getting more Bardic Music, even with multiclassing. And there are some things more powerful than Bard spells. It's a tradeoff.


And beyond these, there are lots of prestige classes that bards can qualify for, and claim that bards would be good candidates for them. They sound okay at first. Spymaster, Exemplar, Dread Pirate, Bladesinger, Spellsword, Unseen Seer... Okay, what are you smoking, and don't forget the puff puff pass.

Spymaster is for those bards who decide that being a sneaky unnoticable bastard is more important than being a smarmy bastard. This is one of the earliest Joker Bard builds I made, and he was crippling, because the party can't get a good 'read' on him, they can't find him, and he always gets away.

Exemplar is an excellent dip for bards! How about Take 10 on Perform checks? Making people love you is what being a Bard is all about, right?

Dread Pirate advances Inspire Courage even better than a Bard does! This is an excellent PrC for ANY Bard in an ocean-faring game.

Spellsword is an excellent 1 level dip for anyone who has spells and wants more BAB. But they suck for everyone after that, not just Bards. It also lets them use mithral Large Shields without ASF (-10% from class and -10% from Mithral is greater than 15% from the shield)


In summary, if a class progresses spellcasting but isn't designed specifically for bards, it will make a terrible bard build. If a class progresses any other abilities that a bard character might like, but not spellcasting, it will make a terrible bard build. If a class manages to do both, it will either do it half-assed and be too weak, or else alter your build to the point that you might as well not be a bard. In summary, with every single example cited, the result was an aspect of what Bard is, and still manages to cover all the bases properly. Your concept of a 'terrible bard' must also include Core bards, for they also lack the things you cite.


Conclusion: Bards are simply too pure for this sinful earth. If the rest of the D&D system touches them, it dilutes their essence and ruins them. Conclusion: Bards rock, their PrC's rock, either in heavy metal or in Folk, depending on the PrC taken. Bards get the MOST love out of sourcebooks of ANY class (other than the full casters and the SpC).


Is it unreasonable to expect WotC to make it feasible for bards to multiclass? Sorcerers have no class features aside from spellcasting, and yet they saw fit to create PrCs that advance spellcasting while giving other abilities. So clearly, they weren't operating under the theory that all PrCs should give something while taking away something else. So there's no reason why they couldn't have created classes that improved some bard class abilities without worsening others. :smallsigh: That's what's called 'game balance'. But fortunately, you don't have to sacrifice anything in any of these cases. You simply get more piled on.


That's all the complaining I've got. But I am now imagining a straight-classed bard waving his guitar angrily and shouting at a Sublime Chord and a Bardsader "YOU GUYS HAVE CHANGED! IT USED TO BE ABOUT THE MUSIC, DUDES! YOU TRAITORS, YOU MULTICLASSING SELLOUTS! NOT GROOVY!":smallbiggrin:

And the War Chanter stands before his legion of 1st level Warriors, hits a power cord and starts the whole army chanting "WE WILL ROCK YOU!!!" before charging forth and utterly obliterating opponents ten times their skill.

And the Sublime Chord strums a mellow chord, smirks, and tells the laws of physics to sit down and shut up.

And the Bardblade leads the charge from the front, inspiring his men, recalling great legends, and telling tales like that of Beowulf, as any Skald should.

And the Spymaster bard sits back and does what any Bard worth the title does... quietly gather information about anyone and anything. And inspires revolutionary groups and foments dissent in oppressive regimes, with the tyrants unable to hinder his movements, or even figure out who he is.

And they all yell back:

FOR THOSE ABOUT TO ROCK! WE SALUTE YOU!

[Psyren]

Conclusion: Bards are simply too pure for this sinful earth. If the rest of the D&D system touches them, it dilutes their essence and ruins them.


Focusing them and ruining them are two very different things.

You try to tell any Sublime Chord that she's a "ruined bard" and you'll be lucky to walk away with any of your body hair intact.

[Silva Stormrage]

Focusing them and ruining them are two very different things.

You try to tell any Sublime Chord that she's a "ruined bard" and you'll be lucky to walk away with any of your body hair intact.

You would be lucky to walk away if he is evil/in a bad mood :smallbiggrin:

[Killer Angel]

And the War Chanter stands before his legion of 1st level Warriors, hits a power cord and starts the whole army chanting "WE WILL ROCK YOU!!!" before charging forth and utterly obliterating opponents ten times their skill.

And the Sublime Chord strums a mellow chord, smirks, and tells the laws of physics to sit down and shut up.

And the Bardblade leads the charge from the front, inspiring his men, recalling great legends, and telling tales like that of Beowulf, as any Skald should.

And the Spymaster bard sits back and does what any Bard worth the title does... quietly gather information about anyone and anything. And inspires revolutionary groups and foments dissent in oppressive regimes, with the tyrants unable to hinder his movements, or even figure out who he is.

And they all yell back:

FOR THOSE ABOUT TO ROCK! WE SALUTE YOU!

Obligatory comic reference (http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F111.jpg). :smallbiggrin:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Obligatory comic reference (http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F111.jpg). :smallbiggrin:

That's one way to look at it... here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfZBMQoNxJM) is another.

But for the love of sanity... please, not like this (http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F128.jpg).

[Killer Angel]

But for the love of sanity... please, not like this (http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F128.jpg).

lol... as fun as it can be, I carefully avoided it, and you decrypt this image? :smalltongue:

[Fouredged Sword]

I like my bard with a single dip into warweaver. Great party buffer, almost all the normal bardic goodness.

[Greenish]

Druids only have Planar Shephard, which is just plain OP, and Moonspeaker.Moonspeaker doesn't progress animal companion. Mention instead the Lion of Talisid.