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Morithias
2011-08-04, 12:11 AM
We all know the most common demon to breed with the mortals is the succubus. So why does our beloved tiefling have a negative to charisma? Here's a varient that you can use if you wish.

-2 dex, +2 int, +2 cha
medium size
Base land speed of 30 feet
Darkvision 60 feet
racial skills: +2 on perform and gather information
Racial feats: none
Special qualities: disguise self (as changling), resist 5 cold/elect/fire
Automatic languages: common, abyssal, bonus: infernal, draconic, dwarf, elf, gnome, goblin, halfling, orc
Favored class: bard
La +1

What do you think?

hivedragon
2011-08-04, 02:15 PM
I'd loose the -2 dex and bump up the skill bonuses to +4
Edit: also i'd give it the evil subtype which allows it to overcome the DR of celestials. Also dr/good might be handy

Shadow Lord
2011-08-04, 02:34 PM
No. Do not give it the Evil Subtype. Ever. Anyway, it looks like a bit much for LA 1. I'd say bump up the Charisma bonus to +4 and make it LA 2.

hivedragon
2011-08-04, 02:44 PM
No. Do not give it the Evil Subtype. Ever.

care to explain this position.


Anyway, it looks like a bit much for LA 1. I'd say bump up the Charisma bonus to +4 and make it LA 2.

Actually it's a bit weak for LA+1 even if he bumps up cha
having an LA means that it makes up for loosing the benefits of class levels

Hiro Protagonest
2011-08-04, 02:48 PM
care to explain this position.

He'll always show up as evil when a Detect Evil is used on him.

hivedragon
2011-08-04, 02:51 PM
He'll always show up as evil when a Detect Evil is used on him.

Just because a creature is evil gives no right to attack him.

wiimanclassic
2011-08-04, 02:54 PM
Just because a creature is evil gives no right to attack him.
Lawful stupid players beg to differ.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-08-04, 02:56 PM
Just because a creature is evil gives no right to attack him.

Even if he isn't killed, he'll make the paladin really confused. And the paladin would think he wouldn't be able to travel with the tiefling because he's not allowed to associate with evil creatures.

hivedragon
2011-08-04, 03:02 PM
Even if he isn't killed, he'll make the paladin really confused. And the paladin would think he wouldn't be able to travel with the tiefling because he's not allowed to associate with evil creatures.

thats the paladin's problem, not the tiefling's.
the paladin is a stupid class anyways, clerics are superior.

Hazzardevil
2011-08-04, 03:29 PM
thats the paladin's problem, not the tiefling's.
the paladin is a stupid class anyways, clerics are superior.

This can all be cleared up with a Smite Evil attempt, afterall Bahumut wouldn't allow his paladin to hurt a good allinged being if possible would he?
Unless this is Pelor the Burning Hate we're talking about.

hamishspence
2011-08-04, 03:35 PM
While the paladin might fall after the blow hits- the damage would still be done.

There's also the "Killing a fiend is always a good act. Allowing one to exist, let alone helping one in any way, is clearly evil" line from BoVD-

since the variant tiefling, being an Outsider with the Evil subtype, would technically be a fiend.

Personally I ignore that line, or make "murder is a corrupt act" from FC2 override it-

so if the killing would qualify as murder, then the fact that the victim is a fiend becomes irrelevant.

Cambions in Expedition to the Demonweb Pits seem a bit like this- half-demon, half-planetouched, but they're only Usually Evil (Often CE).

PersonMan
2011-08-04, 03:36 PM
care to explain this position.

IIRC, the [Evil] subtype basically means "yeah, you're made of evil. That hair? Evil in it's most pure form. Better make sure the barber cleans up before a paladin arrives...", which...well, a tiefling is someone who's fiendish ancestor is a couple generations removed. While pure evil in the family tree does have effects for a while, I don't think that, say, the 3/4 human tiefling with a succubus grandmother would be just as made of evil as the succubus herself.

hamishspence
2011-08-04, 03:39 PM
That said, fiends can still gain an alignment that doesn't match the subtype.

The succubus paladin on the WoTC site, most notably. Also the LN fiend Fall-From-Grace in Planescape Torment.

On non-pure blooded fiends:
In Heroes of Horror there's a variant half-fiend (Unholy Scion) that comes with the Evil subtype, and is virtually indistinguishable from it's non-fiend parent in appearance.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-08-04, 03:47 PM
thats the paladin's problem, not the tiefling's.
the paladin is a stupid class anyways, clerics are superior.

So I provide a solid argument, you say that's the player's fault for choosing to play a paladin?

hivedragon
2011-08-04, 04:51 PM
So I provide a solid argument, you say that's the player's fault for choosing to play a paladin?

It was a weak argument, but if you want to get technical i'd say it would be the DMs fault more than the players.

Say player 1 is an elf who's entire family was killed by drow and he holds their entire race accountable. Player 2 is a drow. Any sensible DM would ask one or the other player to choose something else.

Also WotC is partially responsible for making the paladin and alignment fluff so weird, likely a result of too many cooks in the kitchen.

Morithias
2011-08-04, 05:07 PM
Calm down people, calm down. LOL It's just a variant race.

Lord Vampyre
2011-08-04, 06:43 PM
You should lose the -2 Dex and give it a -2 Con or Str instead. Succubi always struck me as being fairly nimble.

Morithias
2011-08-05, 01:55 PM
You should lose the -2 Dex and give it a -2 Con or Str instead. Succubi always struck me as being fairly nimble.

Check the succubus's ability scores. Dexterity is it's lowest score.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-08-05, 02:13 PM
Check the succubus's ability scores. Dexterity is it's lowest score.

No it's not. It's got 13 in all three physical ability scores (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#succubus).

Morithias
2011-08-05, 08:17 PM
No it's not. It's got 13 in all three physical ability scores (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#succubus).

How odd, my monster manual has 16 in both str and con.

Daeth
2011-08-06, 12:53 AM
Errata does that.

Your MM probably gives Pixies Polymorph (self Only) at caster level 8.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-08-06, 12:56 AM
Errata does that.

But in my MM, it's the same as the SRD. Maybe he has the 3.0 one.

NineThePuma
2011-08-06, 02:56 PM
Then maybe things are weird. Yes.

Also, accidentally posted at my GF's house and didn't sign her out first. Oops?

Shadow Lord
2011-08-06, 04:40 PM
Then maybe things are weird. Yes.

Also, accidentally posted at my GF's house and didn't sign her out first. Oops?

Huh? I'm confused. Who are you supposed to be, if you're not Nine?

Also, the Tiefling no longer has type defined in the entry.

NineThePuma
2011-08-06, 04:51 PM
I am Nine. I accidentally posted as Daeth and didn't notice last night.