Building a Dragon Through Feats

[Elric VIII]

I have been thinking about a dragon character that uses natural attacks derived from feats.

My base would be Dragonborn Something with the wing aspect.

The problem is, the only feat that grants dragon natural attacks, without Sorcerer levels, is Dragon Tail.

Is there a way to gain claw, bite, and wing attacks?

[Amnestic]

Admittedly a Draconic Heritage feat, but there is the Draconic Claw feat (RotD) which gives you two claw attacks.

[Elric VIII]

Admittedly a Draconic Heritage feat, but there is the Draconic Claw feat (RotD) which gives you two claw attacks.

Yes, I had seen that one. What I'm lookin for is ones available without takin Sorcerer levels.

[Dusk Eclipse]

kobold using the web enhancement for races of the dragon gets you claws and bite, add a tail and wings through feats use dragonfire adept as your class and go heart aspect dragonborn for the senses. Perfectly useful and good mini-dragon :smallwink:

[Elric VIII]

kobold using the web enhancement for races of the dragon gets you claws and bite, add a tail and wings through feats use dragonfire adept as your class and go heart aspect dragonborn for the senses. Perfectly useful and good mini-dragon :smallwink:

Well, that's essentially what I'm going for, but that -4 Str and -2 Con does not make for a good melee chassis.

Just to clarify, a Shifter would lose his shifting ability if I used that as the base, right(edit: with Dragonborn, that is)?

[Amnestic]

Yes, I had seen that one. What I'm lookin for is ones available without takin Sorcerer levels.

Dragontouched feat (Dragon Magic) gives you access to the Draconic Heritage feats, as if your ECL=Sorcerer Levels. Comes free with a Dragonfire Adept 1 dip, though I suppose if you're against Sorcerer levels, you'd be against DFA too.

[Fax Celestis]

Dragontouched feat (Dragon Magic) gives you access to the Draconic Heritage feats, as if your ECL=Sorcerer Levels. Comes free with a Dragonfire Adept 1 dip, though I suppose if you're against Sorcerer levels, you'd be against DFA too.

At will breath weapon sounds pretty dragony to me.

[Fouredged Sword]

You could look into the dragon melds for incarnum. A few levels of totemist would allow you to gain some very dragony abilities.

[Amnestic]

At will breath weapon sounds pretty dragony to me.

True. Don't get me wrong, I love me some DFA, but the OP said he wanted to build it 'through feats'.

And as for the Shifter, he would lose his shifting ability upon entering Dragonborn. Dragonborns keep:

-Type, subtype, race.
-Racial Hit Dice
-Ability modifiers
-Size
-Speed
-Languages
-Favoured Class
-Level adjustment

Everything else they lose. Human bonus feats/skills? Lost. Azurin essentia? Lost. Shifter...shifting? Lost :smalltongue:

[Elric VIII]

Dragontouched feat (Dragon Magic) gives you access to the Draconic Heritage feats, as if your ECL=Sorcerer Levels. Comes free with a Dragonfire Adept 1 dip, though I suppose if you're against Sorcerer levels, you'd be against DFA too.

Yeah, I would be inclined to take DFA 1 over Socerer 1. Especially since it gives me access to metabreath feats.

Although, it seems like there's nothing that works without one of those.


EDIT:

True. Don't get me wrong, I love me some DFA, but the OP said he wanted to build it 'through feats'.

And as for the Shifter, he would lose his shifting ability upon entering Dragonborn. Dragonborns keep:

-Type, subtype, race.
-Racial Hit Dice
-Ability modifiers
-Size
-Speed
-Languages
-Favoured Class
-Level adjustment

Everything else they lose. Human bonus feats/skills? Lost. Azurin essentia? Lost. Shifter...shifting? Lost :smalltongue:

Is there anything that would let me regain shifting? For example, the Shifter Druid 5 sub level lets you gain extra uses of shifting in place of wildshape. Would a dip into something like Bloodclaw Master (or something else that grants shifting) be viable?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Well, that's essentially what I'm going for, but that -4 Str and -2 Con does not make for a good melee chassis.

Just to clarify, a Shifter would lose his shifting ability if I used that as the base, right(edit: with Dragonborn, that is)?

You could make a a Dex based melee kobold, just saying.

[Amnestic]

Yeah, I would be inclined to take DFA 1 over Socerer 1. Especially since it gives me access to metabreath feats.

Although, it seems like there's nothing that works without one of those.

Sadly, no it doesn't. Metabreath feats, by RAW, require a Breath weapon with a cooldown expressed in rounds. This means that DFA don't qualify (no cooldown). There are two ways to get around this commonly used by DFAs.

1) Dragonborn breath weapon. Merely having it allows you to take Metabreath feats, which then allow you to apply them to your DFA breath weapon even thought it lacks a cooldown.

2) Power Surge Feat (Dragon Magazine #314). Applies a small number of effects, one of them being a 1 round cooldown to a Supernatural ability - which your breath weapon just happens to be.

Edit: If some form of shifting is gained as an aspect of your class levels, it wouldn't disappear. It's a function of your class, not your race, even though they may be racial levels.

[Elric VIII]

You could make a a Dex based melee kobold, just saying.

I suppose Weapon Finesse/Shadow Blade Swordsage would be a nice fit. Desert Wind would be a nice compliment to dragon-ness.


You could look into the dragon melds for incarnum. A few levels of totemist would allow you to gain some very dragony abilities.


I like the idea of dragon soulmelds, what book are they in?

EDIT:

Sadly, no it doesn't. Metabreath feats, by RAW, require a Breath weapon with a cooldown expressed in rounds. This means that DFA don't qualify (no cooldown). There are two ways to get around this commonly used by DFAs.

1) Dragonborn breath weapon. Merely having it allows you to take Metabreath feats, which then allow you to apply them to your DFA breath weapon even thought it lacks a cooldown.

That would be fine, as I could take Dragon Wings as a feat (although I might need some Flaws to pull off all the "1st level only" stuff).

[Dusk Eclipse]

Dragonwrought (which gives you the Dragon type incidentally) has a special provision letting you take Dragon Wings as a third level feat.

[Fouredged Sword]

there is an artical on WOTC.

Link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=4)

It's all in Dragon Magic though.

[Person_Man]

Shazam (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-127463.html)!

That list gives all the options I know of.

I also have a homebrew Dragon Warrior, which I need to update and repost. Let me know if you're interested and I'll repost it sooner rather then later.

[Greenish]

I suppose Weapon Finesse/Shadow Blade Swordsage would be a nice fit.Claws, bites, tail slaps or wing buffets aren't Shadow Hand weapons, sadly.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Aptitude Necklace of Natural attacks? (quite expensive though...)

[Elric VIII]

Shazam (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-127463.html)!

That list gives all the options I know of.

I also have a homebrew Dragon Warrior, which I need to update and repost. Let me know if you're interested and I'll repost it sooner rather then later.

I normally like to use WotC stuff for my own characters. Although, I'll keep an eye out for when you do repost it, since I do use homebrew classes for my NPCs and my players when I DM.


Claws, bites, tail slaps or wing buffets aren't Shadow Hand weapons, sadly.

/facepalm.


Aptitude Necklace of Natural attacks? (quite expensive though...)

Does this really work?

Ok, so I have a preliminary idea on what I'm going to do:

Desert Kobold w/ 2 flaws:
{table=head] Level|Class|Feats|BAB|IL
1|Swashbuckler 1|Dragonwrought, Dragon Tail, Multiattack, Weapon Finesse|+1| -
2|Overwhelming Attack Monk 1| IUS, Power Attack|+1|-
3|Overwhelming Attack Monk 2|Improved Bullrush, Dragon Wings|+2|-
4|Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1|-|+3|-
5|Warblade 1|-|+4|WB:3
6|Trap Expert, Arcane Hunter Ranger 1| Improved Wings, Trapfinding|+5|WB:3.5
7| Fighter 1| Shock Trooper|+6|WB:4
8|Warblade 2|-|+7|WB:5
9|Minor Bloodline 1|Superior Unarmed Strike|+7|WB:8.5
10|Swordsage 1 |-|+7|SS:9, WB:9.5
11|Warblade 3|-|+8|WB:10.5
12|Warblade 4|Mage Slayer|+9|WB:11.5
13|Warblade 5|Blind Fight|+10| WB:12.5
14|Warblade 6|-|+11| WB:13.5
15|Warblade 7|Pierce Magical Concealment|+12| WB:14.5
16|Warblade 8|-|+13| WB:15.5
17|Warblade 9|Martial Study|+14| WB:16.5
18|Warblade 10|Pierce Magical Protection|+15| WB:17.5
19|Warblade 11|-|+16| WB:18.5
20|Warblade 12|-|+17| WB:19.5[/table]



I use the bloodline level to make up for the IL loss due to dipping. It will be some dragon with + dex.

I have the level of Ranger so that I can boost my Concentration check with the extra skillpoints, since it's cc at level 1.

The Overwhelming Attack Monk (UA) grants me PA and Imp Bullrush without needing high Str, which leads into Shock Trooper.

I am using the Chaos Monk (DrMag 335) so that I can dip Barbarian for Pounce.

The level of SS is there so I can grab all of the save-replacing counters while allowing my WB maneuvers to be offensive ones.

I will be able to use Shock Trooper/PA to make up for the poor base damage of my unarmed attacks and Natural Attacks.

[BillyBobJoe]

Desert Kobold w/ 2 flaws:
{table=head] Level|Class|Feats|BAB|IL
1|Swashbuckler 1|Dragonwrought, Dragon Tail, Multiattack, Weapon Finesse|+1| -
2|Overwhelming Attack Monk 1| IUS, Power Attack|+1|-
3|Overwhelming Attack Monk 2|Improved Bullrush, Dragon Wings|+2|-
4|Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1|-|+3|-
5|Warblade 1|-|+4|WB:3
6|Trap Expert, Arcane Hunter Ranger 1| Improved Wings, Trapfinding|+5|WB:3.5
7| Fighter 1| Shock Trooper|+6|WB:4
8|Warblade 2|-|+7|WB:5
9|Minor Bloodline 1|Iron Heart Aura|+7|WB:8.5
10|Swordsage 1 |-|+7|SS:9, WB:9.5
11|Warblade 3|-|+8|WB:10.5
12|Swordsage 1|Mage Slayer|+9|WB:11.5
13|Warblade 4|-|+10| WB:12.5
14|Warblade 5|Blind Fight|+11| WB:13.5
15|Warblade 6|Pierce Magical Concealment|+12| WB:14.5
16|Warblade 7|-|+13| WB:15.5
17|Warblade 8||+14| WB:16.5
18|Warblade 9|Martial Study, Pierce Magical Protection|+15| WB:17.5
19|Warblade 10|-|+16| WB:18.5
20|Warblade 11|-|+17| WB:19.5[/table]



I use the bloodline level to make up for the IL loss due to dipping.

I have the level of Ranger so that I can boost my Concentration check with the extra skillpoints, since it's cc at level 1.

The Overwhelming Attack Monk (UA) grants me PA and Imp Bullrush without needing high Str, which leads into Shock Trooper.

I am using the Chaos Monk (DrMag 335) so that I can dip Barbarian for Pounce.

The level of SS is there so I can grab all of the save-replacing counters while allowing my WB maneuvers to be offensive ones.

I will be able to use Shock Trooper/PA to make up for the poor base damage of my unarmed attacks and Natural Attacks.


You're a Kobold Swashbuckler Monk Barbarian Ranger Fighter Warblade Swordsage... I hope to dear god that your group doesn't use multiclass penalties.

[Elric VIII]

You're a Kobold Swashbuckler Monk Barbarian Ranger Fighter Warblade Swordsage... I hope to dear god that your group doesn't use multiclass penalties.

No worries, we don't.:smallbiggrin:

We also tend to play with the idea of classes as metagame constructs, so basically we throw away the class fluff and go with the mechanics that best describe out character.

[Dusk Eclipse]

The Aptitude Weapon special ability specifically mentions feats which "affect the use of a particular type of weapon" and let you "apply the benefits of those feats to any weapon that has the aptitude ability"

Shadow Blade is a feat that affect a particular type of weapons (in this case Shadow Hand weapons) and thus by RAW you can use Shadow Blade with aptitude weapons (incidentally this is also why you can use Lighting Maces with kukris) probably not RAI; but definitely RAW.

[Godskook]

The RAI on aptitude weapons is probably similar to Warblade's class feature.

------------

As for your dragon, try:

Dragonborn Warforged

Feats:
Dragon Tail
Jaws of Death

Totemist 2+

That alone nets you 2 or more claws, a tail attack and a bite. The wing buffet is hard to come by at the same reach length, and since charging is integral to good melee damage, that's basically required. You could fluff Girrallon's secondary claws as being apart of your wings, but that's a tad DM dependent.

Going:

Barbarian 1/Totemist 2/Dragonfire Adept 15/Heir of Syberis 2

Gives you basically everything it means to be a dragon except sorcerer casting, which you can effectively duplicate with UMD as far as any onlooker is concerned. Oh, and you have just enough feats left to grab Shock Trooper.

[Rei_Jin]

Personally, I'd take Feral Raptoran Dragonborn and grab the breath aspect.

Feats would be as follows:
Flaw: Shaky
Feats:
1: Dragontouched
1: Dragon Tail

You have good natural armor (like a dragon), wings, claws, and a tail (like a dragon), a breath weapon you can use every 1d4 rounds (like a dragon) and you'd be a melee beast (again, like a dragon).

From there, you could go with whatever base class you like, although I'd suggest something that gets heavy armor proficiency, so you can take the Dragonscale Husk alternate class feature.

[Elric VIII]

The RAI on aptitude weapons is probably similar to Warblade's class feature.

------------

As for your dragon, try:
*snip*

That is a very dragon-ey build, but it doesn't seem very martial.



Personally, I'd take Feral Raptoran Dragonborn and grab the breath aspect.

Feats would be as follows:
Flaw: Shaky
Feats:
1: Dragontouched
1: Dragon Tail

You have good natural armor (like a dragon), wings, claws, and a tail (like a dragon), a breath weapon you can use every 1d4 rounds (like a dragon) and you'd be a melee beast (again, like a dragon).

From there, you could go with whatever base class you like, although I'd suggest something that gets heavy armor proficiency, so you can take the Dragonscale Husk alternate class feature.

I suppose Feral couldn't be much harder to argue for than Dragonwrought.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Dragonwrought is not OP or gamebreaking without using the most notable abuses (Loredrake and early epic feats access), the bonus from ageing is not that good in my opinion and the Dragon type by itself is not that good IMO.

[Greenish]

Personally, I'd take Feral Raptoran Dragonborn and grab the breath aspect.Feral is an inherited template, dragonborn an acquired one. You'd lose most of the stuff from the former by taking latter, I believe.

[Elric VIII]

Dragonwrought is not OP or gamebreaking without using the most notable abuses (Loredrake and early epic feats access), the bonus from ageing is not that good in my opinion and the Dragon type by itself is not that good IMO.

I had a DM that would not let me play a non-dragonwrought Kobold Cleric. He simply would not allow kobolds because he had heard of Pun Pun and would not let me explain otherwise. I just keep that experience in the back of my mind, in case I have to argue a character point. :smallannoyed:

[Rei_Jin]

Feral is an inherited template, dragonborn an acquired one. You'd lose most of the stuff from the former by taking latter, I believe.

Hmmm... just looking through the mechanics of it now.

You'd keep the ability modifiers and the speed boosts by the RAW. That said, I can't see how logically getting scales would REDUCE your natural armor, or remove your claws. I accept that you would lose the Improved Grab, Rend, Fast Healing, Darkvision, etc... but those aren't really needed.

A DM could rule that you lose the natural armor and claws, but as a DM, I wouldn't. It doesn't make sense.


EDIT: If your DM does go that way, you could always take levels in the Dragon Devotee prestige class to gain the Draconic Template on TOP of the Dragonborn template, thus giving you claws.

[Godskook]

That is a very dragon-ey build, but it doesn't seem very martial.

1.You specified dragoney, not martial. Didn't realize you were focusing on the martial end.

2.You can make it significantly more martial without changing that Chasis, assuming you've got flaws and item flexibility. Knowledge Devotion, a skillful valorous necklace of natural attacks, and greater magic fang raises your attack bonus to +25/+20.... before str/dex. And with shock trooper and leading the charge(cheap to get via item), you'll be dealing almost 400 damage on a charge before factoring in str and damage dice. That might not be martial enough, but its not bad for a dragon who's expecting to breath fire all day.

[Elric VIII]

1.You specified dragoney, not martial. Didn't realize you were focusing on the martial end.


You're completely correct. I did not specify that. I meant to, but it slipped my mind.


2.You can make it significantly more martial without changing that Chasis, assuming you've got flaws and item flexibility. Knowledge Devotion, a skillful valorous necklace of natural attacks, and greater magic fang raises your attack bonus to +25/+20.... before str/dex. And with shock trooper and leading the charge(cheap to get via item), you'll be dealing almost 400 damage on a charge before factoring in str and damage dice. That might not be martial enough, but its not bad for a dragon who's expecting to breath fire all day.

What does skillful do? Is it the one that grants an automatic 3/4 BAB?

With Knowledge Devotion, Draconic Knowledge, et al I can get a very nice damage output while still having the flexibility of a few invocations and a breath weapon. When I think about it this way, it seems like a more versatile build than the ToB one I posted, while still maintainin damage output.

Thank you.

[Godskook]

Skillful is a weapon enhancement, so is Valorous, amounting to a minimum +4 necklace for at least 4 natural weapons(2 claws, bite and tail), costing 128k.

My build also was assuming this for feats:
-Heroic Spirit
-Breath of Syberis
-PA
-Imp BR
-Shock Trooper
-Jaws
-Tail
Flaw - Knowledge Devotion

If you don't have flaws in your group, you'll need to adjust.

[Fax Celestis]

Knowledge Devotion, a skillful valorous necklace of natural attacks, and greater magic fang raises your attack bonus to +25/+20.... before str/dex.

Don't forget to take Draconic Heritage, Knowledge, Senses, and Toughness!


Prerequisite: Sorcerer level 1st
Benefit: Choose one dragon from the Draconic Heritage list below and gain the indicated skill as a class skill. This is your draconic heritage, which cannot be changed once the feat has been taken. Half-dragons must choose the same dragon kind as their dragon parent.

In addition, you gain a bonus on saving throws against sleep and paralysis, as well as spells and abilities with the energy type of your Draconic Heritage. This bonus is equal to the number of draconic feats you have.

{table=head]Dragon Kind | Energy Type | Skill
Black | Acid | Hide
Blue | Electricity | Listen
Green | Acid | Move Silently
Red | Fire | Intimidate
White | Cold | Balance
Brass | Fire | Gather Information
Bronze | Electricity | Survival
Copper | Acid | Hide
Gold | Fire | Heal
Silver | Cold | Disguise[/table]


Prerequisite: Draconic Heritage, sorcerer level 1st.
Benefit: You gain a bonus on Knowledge checks equal to the number of draconic feats you have. All Knowledge skills are class skills for all your classes.


Prerequisite: Draconic Heritage, sorcerer level 1st.
Benefit: When you take this feat, you gain 2 hit points for each draconic feat you have, including this one. Whenever you take a new draconic feat, you gain 2 more hit points.


Prerequisite: Cha 11, dragonblood subtype.
Benefit: You gain low-light vision and a bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks equal to the number of draconic feats you have.
Special: If you have three or more draconic feats, you also gain darkvision out to 60 feet.
Normal: If you have four or more draconic feats, you also gain blindsense out to 20 feet.

And then cast or get an item of magic of the dragonheart, a Sorc 2 spell that, for hours per level, makes you count like you have two more draconic feats (which means a +2 vs an element based on your Draconic Heritage feat), +2 vs paralysis, +4 HP, +2 listen/search/spot/knowledge (everything), and any other feats you've got), plus any draconic feats that trigger on a spell being cast that have variable effects based on the spell's level (like Draconic Flight giving a 10' fly speed per level of spell cast) uses 1/2 your CL instead of the spell's level to determine the feat's effects. AND a competence bonus on the skill acquired from Draconic Heritage feat equal to 1/2 your CL.

[Wings of Peace]

Amphibious Incarnate Construct Half-Minotaur Feral Ice-Dweller Warforged Dragonborn Totemist! Because we can build a better dragon.

[Greenish]

Amphibious Incarnate Construct Half-Minotaur Feral Ice-Dweller Warforged Dragonborn Totemist! Because we can build a better dragon.Where's Ice-Dweller from?

[Elric VIII]

Amphibious Incarnate Construct Half-Minotaur Feral Ice-Dweller Warforged Dragonborn Totemist! Because we can build a better dragon.

I'm not sure about Amplibious and Ice-Dweller, but that looks LA +0 to me.

[Wings of Peace]

I'm not sure about Amplibious and Ice-Dweller, but that looks LA +0 to me.

You are correct! Amphibious is from Stormwrack and will grant you a Swim speed for the rare occasion you may need it. Ice-Dweller is from DM 321 I believe and is +2 Con/-2 Dex. I'm checking right now, I recall there's also an arctic template from DM that gives +2 Con and penalizes some other stuff.

[Greenish]

I'm checking right now, I recall there's also an arctic template from DM that gives +2 Con and penalizes some other stuff.Arctic is from DM 306, and comes with -2 penalty to cha.

[Wings of Peace]

Arctic is from DM 306, and comes with -2 penalty to cha.

Thanks Greenish. Arctic and Ice-Dweller also appear to be the same thing, I was confusing myself. Not sure where I got the +2 Con/-2 Dex from anymore, must've been failing my google checks.

Edit:

On the stat bonus side of things an Amphibious Arctic Incarnate Construct Feral Half-Minotaur Warforged Dragonborn should have

+12 str (+12 Minotaur, +4 Feral)
-8 Dex (-2 Minotaur,-2 Feral, -2 Aquatic, -Dragonborn)
+14 con (+6 Minotaur, +2 Arctic, +2Feral, +2 Warforged, +2 Dragonborn)
-6 Int (-2 Minotaur, -4 Feral)
+0 Wis (-2 Warforged +2 Feral)
-4 Cha (-2 Warforged, -2 Arctic)

[Greenish]

Thanks Greenish. Arctic and Ice-Dweller also appear to be the same thing, I was confusing myself. Not sure where I got the +2 Con/-2 Dex from anymore, must've been failing my google checks.Amphibious comes with dex penalty, so it's there. :smalltongue:

[Wings of Peace]

Assuming your DM follows the ruling that the Half-Ogre race does not replace the Half-Ogre template (due to one being a race and one being, well, a template) this may be a better option than the one I posted previously:

Race: Warforged Scout [MM III, pg. 193]

Templates: Amphibious [Sto 136], Arctic [DR #306, pg. 62], Dragonborn (Wings Aspect) [RDr, pg. 8], Half-Minotaur [DR #313, pg. 94], Half-Ogre [DR #313, pg. 95], Incarnate Construct [SS, pg. 121],

Type: Humanoid (Incarnate Construct) [MM I, pg. 310]

Subtype: Aquatic (Amphibious) [MM I, pg. 306], Dragonblood (Dragonborn) [RDr, pg. 4], Living Construct (Warforged Scout) [ECS, pg. 23]

Size: Large (Half-Minotaur + Half-Ogre)

Speed:

*Fly: 30 (Starting at level 6)
*Land: 40 (20 [Incarnate Construct] + 20 [H-Minotaur/H-Ogre])
*Swim: 20 (Amphibious, 1/2 land speed)
*Burrow: 20 (Burrowing Claws, Illithid Graft, 30,000 gp., 1/2 fastest speed)


Abilities:

*Str: +18
(-2 [WF Scout], +4 [Half-Minotaur], +4 [Small->Medium], +4 [Half-Ogre], +8 [Medium->Large])
*Dex: -6
(+2 [WF Scout], -2 [Small-> Medium], -2 [Medium->Large], -2 [Amphibious], -2 [Dragonborn])
*Con: +12
(+2 [Half-Minotaur], +2 [Small->Medium], +4 [Medium->Large], +2 [Arctic], +2 [Dragonborn])
*Int: -4
(-2 [Half-Minotaur], -2 [Half-Ogre])
*Wis: -2
(-2 WF Scout,)
*Cha: -6
(-2 WF Scout, -2 [Half-Ogre], -2 [Arctic])

Level Adjustment: +0
(Half-Minotaur: +1, Half-Ogre +1, Incarnate Construct: -2)

[Greenish]

Very neat, and I think you get to keep the Living Construct subtype through all of that by RAW, providing excellent blanket immunities.

Your ground speed (and thus swim speed) is wrong, though. Both halfsies give +10 bonus when they increase your size, giving you the 40' land speed most other large creatures also enjoy.

[Wings of Peace]

Very neat, and I think you get to keep the Living Construct subtype through all of that by RAW, providing excellent blanket immunities.

Your ground speed (and thus swim speed) is wrong, though. Both halfsies give +10 bonus when they increase your size, giving you the 40' land speed most other large creatures also enjoy.

Edited the post to have the correct speed, and yes you're correct. You may find it funny to know that because of how Dragonborn and Incarnate Construct work we lose the ability of Amphibian to breathe on land so without Living Construct we wouldn't be of much use excluding an under the sea campaign.

[Greenish]

Ha, quite. Though an undersea campaign might be interesting.

[Wings of Peace]

Ha, quite. Though an undersea campaign might be interesting.

The image of burly draconic robots fighting for Atlantis is an epic one indeed.

[dextercorvia]

Doesn't Incarnate Construct make give you the Giant type since you are Large?

[Godskook]

Don't forget to take Draconic Heritage, Knowledge, Senses, and Toughness!

1.I didn't forget, I ran out of feats.

2.Most, if not all, of those feats are made far less attractive by fairly attractive DFA class features. Down the list:
Draconic Knowledge - +6 on knowledge checks is ok, but we're not building a focused lore-monkey, and DC 36 is all we need to power Devotion and identify most monsters. Assuming half ranks in each, the relevant invocation, an 18 Int after items, and +5 on knowledge checks, we're already sitting at +26. With a few more ranks, and better items, we could easily gather the needed 9 to reach +35 for an auto-pas.
Draconic Toughness - Between the invocation of the same name, Con-focus for the DFA class anyway, and the fact that this is only 60% of improved toughness, this is a fairly bad feat on DFAs in general, except to combo with the other feats.
Draconic Senses - Probably the best feat in the lot, but you're not the party scout. You also have spot/listen as class skills and can afford to keep both reasonably high without impacting your knowledges. You also have invocations that replicate the alternate vision modes portion.
Draconic Heritage - Strong save bonuses against highly situational saves and single skill check competence bonus. The subtype is redundant with the DFA's class features. Overall, not really worth the combo, given the OP's desire to be a melee combatant, and is probably the most compelling reason to use it.

3.Given the above, combined with the fact that the build in question already had 7 out of 7 feats explicitly spoken for(and another one I hadn't mentioned until the post I ninja'ed in while you were typing), I'd say that the combo really isn't worth gutting the build to fit it in, and without the full combo, the individual feats aren't really noteworthy enough to be worth a feat slot compared the other options he could take.

[Tvtyrant]

What about Dragonborn with the Mind option, then go into Dragon Shaman for class, and use metabreaths to blast people?

[Greenish]

Doesn't Incarnate Construct make give you the Giant type since you are Large?I'm not sure, but I don't think so. Incarnate Construct is the first template to be applied, so when it's slapped on, you're still small.

But if changing the size later affects how IC is applied, it would mean not only that it's of giant type, but also that it has 60' ground speed (40' base for large IC, then +10' from both size increases).

If it was a giant, then, we could apply Primordial Giant template to balance the stats a bit (-4 str, -2 con, +4 int, +4 cha).

[Godskook]

What about Dragonborn with the Mind option, then go into Dragon Shaman for class, and use metabreaths to blast people?

D-Shaman + Metabreath feats means tons of feats and a class ability to be useful for exactly one round during a combat. Pick the right round, and you'll do ok, but pick the wrong one, and you had better be prepared to run the rest of the combat without a significant portion of your build.

Works better if you have a second breath weapon and/or are working in gestalt(Dragonborn D-Shaman/DFA is one of my favorite gestalt builds).

[Tvtyrant]

D-Shaman + Metabreath feats means tons of feats and a class ability to be useful for exactly one round during a combat. Pick the right round, and you'll do ok, but pick the wrong one, and you had better be prepared to run the rest of the combat without a significant portion of your build.

Works better if you have a second breath weapon and/or are working in gestalt(Dragonborn D-Shaman/DFA is one of my favorite gestalt builds).
I agree, but you can stack a LOT on that one breath weapon. D-Shamans are kinda the epitome of Nova tactics; send out a blast that will hopefully down everything at once and then sit there twiddling thumbs and using the cure wand.

That gestalt combo would be cool to watch; DFA with extangling breath every round and D-Shaman once a combat.

[Wings of Peace]

I'm not sure, but I don't think so. Incarnate Construct is the first template to be applied, so when it's slapped on, you're still small.

But if changing the size later affects how IC is applied, it would mean not only that it's of giant type, but also that it has 60' ground speed (40' base for large IC, then +10' from both size increases).

If it was a giant, then, we could apply Primordial Giant template to balance the stats a bit (-4 str, -2 con, +4 int, +4 cha).

If our character is Large when we apply IC then it gains the giant type, it does not however give us a size increase. I wasn't too concerned with the order since I wasn't planning on using Primordial but you're correct that it balances out the more intensely weak stats.

[dextercorvia]

If our character is Large when we apply IC then it gains the giant type, it does not however give us a size increase. I wasn't too concerned with the order since I wasn't planning on using Primordial but you're correct that it balances out the more intensely weak stats.

IC is an acquired template.

Half-Ogre, Half-Minotaur, and Primordial Giant are all inherited.

[Wings of Peace]

IC is an acquired template.

Half-Ogre, Half-Minotaur, and Primordial Giant are all inherited. So by order of operations we have the Giant type but acquire it after we could have applied Primordial?

[Greenish]

So by order of operations we have the Giant type but acquire it after we could have applied Primordial?By order of operations, we also apparently become half-minotaurs and half-ogres before we become eligible for them (since constructs won't pass).

[Elric VIII]

I must say, I like the direction this thread is heading. How many more templates can we slap on this chassis without worrying about LA?

[Greenish]

I must say, I like the direction this thread is heading. How many more templates can we slap on this chassis without worrying about LA?As many +0 ones as we like. :smalltongue:

[NNescio]

As many +0 ones as we like. :smalltongue:

Unseelie Fey?

(It's from Dragon though.)

Also, Dragonborn, 'though these two may potentially conflict due to alignment issues.

[Wings of Peace]

By order of operations, we also apparently become half-minotaurs and half-ogres before we become eligible for them (since constructs won't pass).

I'm not sure how to feel about this. Monster manual reads as such:


Some templates can be added to a creature anytime. A monster or character may become a ghost after death. A spellcaster of at least 11th level may become a lich. Those with 5 or more HD killed by vampires may become vampires. Templates such as these are referred to as acquired templates, indicating that the creature did not always have the attributes of the template.

Other templates, known as inherited templates, are part of a creature from the beginning of its existence its existence. Examples include the celestial, fiendish, half-celestial, half-dragon, and half-fiend templates--all assume the creature was born with the template.

Arguably then it depends on how literal we get with acquired templates being applicable "any" time.

[Greenish]

Arguably then it depends on how literal we're get with acquired templates being applicable "any" time.True, but even then we won't be able to get Primordial Giant or 60' speed, since we need Incarnate Construct to be applied before size increases from mino & ogre (to qualify for these), and thus don't gain the giant type from IC.

For a dumb brute, it's a wash, of course.

[Wings of Peace]

I must say, I like the direction this thread is heading. How many more templates can we slap on this chassis without worrying about LA?

As Greenish said, there's other things we could toss on there. The problem is that we've used pretty much all the no LA templates that boost con or str with the exception of Amphibious which is there to net us a swim speed. Are there any LA 0 templates that grant burrow?

[Greenish]

Are there any LA 0 templates that grant burrow?None I can think of, but I think there are grafts to that effect. A domain power, too, according to lists of stuff.

[Wings of Peace]

None I can think of, but I think there are grafts to that effect. A domain power, too, according to lists of stuff.

The Burrowing Claws Illithid graft from LoM looks like the best bet. It's only a speed of 20ft. with some minor penalties but it gives Robo-Dragon a source of burrowing that doesn't run out, only costs gold, and the penalties aren't to anything we were good at anyways.

[Greenish]

The Burrowing Claws Illithid graft from LoM looks like the best bet. It's only a speed of 20ft. with some minor penalties but it gives Robo-Dragon a source of burrowing that doesn't run out, only costs gold, and the penalties aren't to anything we were good at anyways.That's an option, yeah, though the lovely Mineral Warrior is only +1 LA. Could it be added on top of Dragonborn to keep the NA and DR?

[Wings of Peace]

That's an option, yeah, though the lovely Mineral Warrior is only +1 LA. Could it be added on top of Dragonborn to keep the NA and DR?

It could. Our burrow speed would be 1/2 our fastest speed which is 40 so it'd be the same as the claws though. The +1 LA would be worth it early on but the +2 Str, +4 Con, +3 NA seem sort of small in the grand scheme of things compared to what could be accomplished with careful use of class levels.

[Greenish]

It could. Our burrow speed would be 1/2 our fastest speed which is 40 so it'd be the same as the claws though. The +1 LA would be worth it early on but the +2 Str, +4 Con, +3 NA seem sort of small in the grand scheme of things compared to what could be accomplished with careful use of class levels.Granted. DR 8/Adamantine also loses it's lustre.

[Wings of Peace]

Granted. DR 8/Adamantine also loses it's lustre.

Then going strictly by the WBL guide the earliest Robo-Dragon becomes an all terrain vehicle is level 9 with a WBL of 36,000 (the claws are 30k) with his flight coming online at level 6 for free.

[silvadel]

Try the dracha race from monte cook's arcana evolved.

Take several racial levels and maybe warmain for the rest.

[Elric VIII]

Then going strictly by the WBL guide the earliest Robo-Dragon becomes an all terrain vehicle is level 9 with a WBL of 36,000 (the claws are 30k) with his flight coming online at level 6 for free.

Do grafts use item slots?

Because it seems like Robo-Dragon could benefit from more Totemist levels and less DFA.

[Wings of Peace]

Do grafts use item slots?

Because it seems like Robo-Dragon could benefit from more Totemist levels and less DFA.

It varies depending on if you're using grafts made before or after WoTC decided to change how they designed grafts. The claws don't list a slot and claim that they replace your current hands though so I don't think they occupy an item slot.

Also, Totemist would probably be the better option you are correct (especially consider the high str score). Totemist was actually the class I had in mind when I first read this thread anyways so that works out nicely.

If we could figure out a way to qualify Robo-Dragon to take Rapid Strike and Improved Rapid Strike he would exceptionally vicious.

Combining Knockback with Shocktrooper would also be a good idea. Dungeon Crasher fighter wouldn't be at all out of place either if you wanted something to mix in with Totemist.

[Elric VIII]

It varies depending on if you're using grafts made before or after WoTC decided to change how they designed grafts. The claws don't list a slot and claim that they replace your current hands though so I don't think they occupy an item slot.

Also, Totemist would probably be the better option you are correct (especially consider the high str score). Totemist was actually the class I had in mind when I first read this thread anyways so that works out nicely.

If we could figure out a way to qualify Robo-Dragon to take Rapid Strike and Improved Rapid Strike he would exceptionally vicious.

Combining Knockback with Shocktrooper would also be a good idea. Dungeon Crasher fighter wouldn't be at all out of place either if you wanted something to mix in with Totemist.

I know there's an Abberant Blood feat, somewhere. Does this give the Abberation type?

[Greenish]

I know there's an Abberant Blood feat, somewhere. Does this give the Abberation type?Nope. Best I can come up, DD gives Dragon type at capstone. Not worth it, though.

[Wings of Peace]

I know there's an Abberant Blood feat, somewhere. Does this give the Abberation type?

Sadly not. Normally people use Elans but that isn't an option for Robo-Dragon. As a Totemist you'll still get plenty of attacks though. Especially if you dip Barbarian for Pounce and Whirling Frenzy. Your high str combined with investing some essentia should make up for the penalties associated with natural weapons.

If you dip Barbarian Totem Rager would be a good idea.

[Greenish]

Sadly not. Normally people use Elans but that isn't an option for Robo-Dragon. As a Totemist you'll still get plenty of attacks though. Especially if you dip Barbarian for Pounce and Whirling Frenzy..Excellent, Totem Rager rocks.

[Wings of Peace]

Excellent, Totem Rager rocks.

Whirling Frenzy replaces Rage which is a requirement for Totem Rager, does that mean a WF Barb can't be a Totem Rager?

[Greenish]

Whirling Frenzy replaces Rage which is a requirement for Totem Rager, does that mean a WF Barb can't be a Totem Rager?Well, it's a Rage variant:


…this variant form of rage…

…is otherwise identical to the standard barbarian rage in all other ways.So it could be read to be Rage, just with different bonuses.

[Elric VIII]

Well, it's a Rage variant:

So it could be read to be Rage, just with different bonuses.

I think anyone okay with allowing Robo-Dragon in his campaign would be easy enough to convince of this.

[silvadel]

I forgot about the dragon kith presteige class -- also in arcana evolved.