As a DM, should I allow a Scout/Rogue Gestalt?

[TheRinni]

For my upcoming Gestalt Campaign, one of my players wants to roll a Scout/Rouge. I told him I'd have to think about it. Skirmish damage and Sneak Attack damage aren't the same progression; by RAW he could advance both.

I'm worried that the resulting, stacked damage might be a bit OP. But, then again, he's probably going to be the only player with weak Fort and Will saves.

What does the Playground suggest?

[The Glyphstone]

He has to qualify for that damage, mind, so he'll be A) fighting from range most of the time, B) heavily dependent on invisibility (for the flat-footedness), and C) still not doing a terrible amount of damage unless he can get Greater Manyshot. Let him have it, it's not that bad.

[Sucrose]

It depends upon the general optimization level of your group. For a typical Tier 3 group, even non-gestalt, doubling up on sneak attack and skirmish damage isn't really that bad. For a group that has Fighters taking the Weapon Focus line without PHB 2's mildly-redeeming additional feats, it would probably be overpowered, if not as bad as it could be because of his glass cannon nature in gestalt. If the other players are going with Tier 1 builds that actually play up their strengths, then he will be woefully underpowered.

[gkathellar]

I wouldn't worry about it. 15d6 highly situational damage in gestalt isn't all that impressive ... and remember that, absent Manyshot, he's only getting off one attack per round for that 5d6 from the scout. Plus, aside from that, he doesn't get much out of Rogue/Scout. Same good saves, same BAB, same skill points: yeah, it's not overpowered at all.

[dsmiles]

Stuff.


More Stuff.


Even More Stuff.

I couldn't agree more. Rogue//Scout really isn't OP in a standard gestalt game.

[Eldan]

Yeah. Think about it: how often will you actually get both sources of bonus damage on a character that isn't extremely focused? How often do you move, then attack an enemy that has no dex bonus to AC? Allow it. It could be much, much worse.

[Drglenn]

I'd allow it. It's not as if gestalting to do a lot of damage is OP when any tier 1 and most tier 2 classes can end an encounter with a single spell, and that's without gestalting.

[Urpriest]

Plus, doesn't Swift Ambusher do a lot of this already? And that's intended for non-gestalt, so it's lower-powered.

[Studoku]

I don't see how skirmish damage while wearing makeup would be overpowered.

[Socratov]

with the improved skirmish feat from complete scoundrel, the scout gets double bonuses form his skirmish ability, as long as he moves 20 ft. Now you can move 20 ft by continually walking around an enemy (as long as you walk the squares around and tumble you'll be ok), what he can doo too is take with that crossbow sniper which allows him to sneak attack from 60 ft. he can already skirmish from 60 ft, so 1 attack on lvl 20 he gets(suppose he moves 20 ft): 10d6 sneak + 10d6 skirmish = 20d6.

the ranger gets hide in plain sight, i couldnt find what time it takes to make a hide check (assume free/swift/immedeate action would be possible), even with the stealth penalty he can hide, move, sneak attack, skirmish and be gone again, that is a steady, ranged, 20d6 +crossbow damage he produces, get a repeating crossbow and you will only have to reload every 5 rounds (?). It's good, but definately not overpowered. Better would be scout20//warlock16/hellfire warlock3/binder1. take flyby attack (fell flight qualifies), improved skirmish, and other feats you deem neccessary, and you get with healing your con dmg every round (again assuming he moves 20 ft.)
7+6+10=23d6 on touch AC, range 60 ft. (could be more if you want to) SR applicable, but no DR and no elemental resistance. Also you get +5 AC from scout, detect magic at will, take 10 on UMD, free movement, blindsight 30 ft, evasion, +20ft. movement, trapfinding, a good will and reflex save, and a decent boost to fort saves (but you are a hellfire warlock so you will have great con, helping your fortsave too), 8+int skillpoints in addition to a great skillist, d8 hit die, flight (from invocation) and some other invocations for tricks and shenanigans.

my point? scout//rogue isn't that good, even when not using tier 1 and 2 material.

[Boci]

with the improved skirmish feat from complete scoundrel, the scout gets double bonuses form his skirmish ability, as long as he moves 20 ft. Now you can move 20 ft by continually walking around an enemy (as long as you walk the squares around and tumble you'll be ok), what he can doo too is take with that crossbow sniper which allows him to sneak attack from 60 ft. he can already skirmish from 60 ft, so 1 attack on lvl 20 he gets(suppose he moves 20 ft): 10d6 sneak + 10d6 skirmish = 20d6.

Nope. Improved skirmish just adds 2d6 to damage (and 2 to AC).

[Talya]

I don't see how skirmish damage while wearing makeup would be overpowered.


Yes, especially when Tome of Battle classes get it as an automatically activated class feature. Every time anything slightly romantic happens, they get little rouge spots on their cheeks.

Now, a scout//swordsage, that'd be something. Think of the speed lines!

[grarrrg]

I don't see how skirmish damage while wearing makeup would be overpowered.

The Scout/Rouge is no more overpowered than the Scout/Eyeshadow combo

http://tf2wiki.net/w/images/thumb/6/69/Scout.png/300px-Scout.pnghttp://images.subeta.net/hacontest/ref/1974518121.png

[Socratov]

Nope. Improved skirmish just adds 2d6 to damage (and 2 to AC).

i stand corrected (misread ruling for an example earlier :smallredface: ) still that would to only 17d6 damage (which proves my point even more). with the warlock build only 21

Edit: nowhere does it state you can't take the feat multiple times, take it multiple times and you have a d6 mosnter :smallamused:

[Boci]

Edit: nowhere does it state you can't take the feat multiple times, take it multiple times and you have a d6 mosnter :smallamused:

I'm pretty sure it says in core that unless a feat says it can be taken multiple times, you cannot.

[gallagher]

the only way i see this as being difficult to handle is if he gets levels in dervish. having more attacks, running around enemies in circles, and having some sort of advantage to deny them dex (i would assume a well placed grease or greater invis) might push him into something a bit more powerful

[Fouredged Sword]

I would watch out for a swashbuckler 3 / rogue 17 // scout 3 / ranger x build myself. Now you have full bab, extra abilities, skermish damage on favored enimies ignoreing immunity, and manyshot as a free feat.

There are better combos out there. Even a Psion // Wilder would be better at raw damage. A wizard // rouge would destroy with many touch spells. Going unseen seer with hunter's eye gets crazy D6's.

[Person_Man]

I would not suggest it, because it is a ridiculously weak combination. The BAB, Skills, Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Hide in Plain Site, and probably other all OVERLAP. Thus he's screwing himself out of most of the benefits of gestalt. Other players will have massive amounts of resources to utilize, and he's going to be doing the exact same thing every combat. Activate Ring of Blinking (or a Wand of Greater Invisibility), move 10+ feet, make a full attack with Greater Manyshot (which requires 3 cruddy pre-reqs). Repeat. Every combat. Who cares if he deals an extra 0.875 damage per level (less then the bonus granted by Craven) from Skirmish?

[Greenish]

the only way i see this as being somewhat competent is if he gets levels in dervish. having more attacks, running around enemies in circles, and having some sort of advantage to deny them dex (i would assume a well placed grease or greater invis) might push him into something a bit more usefulFixed that for you. Seriously, tunnel vision into "haha I get to use many dice!" is going to screw him over.

Scout//Duskblade or Rogue//Duskblade should satisfy his craving for rolling lots of d6's (and d4's), while becoming an actual gestalt character.

[Fouredged Sword]

Rouge / Psion for energy ray to the face is not a bad combo. Int focused and Psions have some great abilites.

[Psyren]

Just don't let him enter Master of Mascara or Eyeshadowdancer. It's like they just stopped playtesting at that point :smalleek:

[CTrees]

Mixing in Spellwarp Sniper could make it a little more interesting, but really, it's not much better than a T3 class in non-gestalt. Unless everyone is going "I'm a Figher/Paladin! Look how hard I smite!" he's going to be quite underpowered, unless he finds some way to truly abuse it.

[Prime32]

I suggest taking a look at the scout archetype for rogues from PF.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/scout


Scout’s Charge (Ex): At 4th level, whenever a scout makes a charge, her attack deals sneak attack damage as if the target were flat-footed. Foes with uncanny dodge are immune to this ability. This ability replaces uncanny dodge.

Skirmisher (Ex): At 8th level, whenever a scout moves more than 10 feet in a round and makes an attack action, the attack deals sneak attack damage as if the target was flat-footed. If the scout makes more than one attack this turn, this ability only applies to the first attack. Foes with uncanny dodge are immune to this ability. This ability replaces improved uncanny dodge.

Otherwise, there's a fighter variant which gets sneak attack instead of bonus feats (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter). Gestalting that with scout would give you a better chassis.

[JaronK]

For my upcoming Gestalt Campaign, one of my players wants to roll a Scout/Rouge. I told him I'd have to think about it. Skirmish damage and Sneak Attack damage aren't the same progression; by RAW he could advance both.

I'm worried that the resulting, stacked damage might be a bit OP. But, then again, he's probably going to be the only player with weak Fort and Will saves.

What does the Playground suggest?

It's a very weak gestalt combo. He gains nothing to the chassis of a Scout by going Rogue. His abilities are all too similar in nature. Generally speaking, it's downright low in power. Don't worry about that, worry about the other direction. Make sure he's got stuff for dealing with undead, constructs, elementals, oozes, plants, and anything else he'd be useless against... or don't throw those things against him, because it's downright unfair.

A far better build would be something with Rokugan Ninja and Scout (for the full BAB and speed) or Sneak Attack Variant Fighter (full BAB and fort saves and better hps) or just straight up Rogue//Swordsage for some actual flexibility.

JaronK

[Zaq]

Just don't let him enter Master of Mascara or Eyeshadowdancer. It's like they just stopped playtesting at that point :smalleek:

I agree. Totally overpowdered.

[Psyren]

I agree. Totally overpowdered.

When we pointed it out on the forums, they didn't even blush. It was all a big cover-up.

[Zaq]

When we pointed it out on the forums, they didn't even blush. It was all a big cover-up.

The least they could have done is painted over it a little bit. Really, though, their counterarguments were utterly without foundation.

[Greenish]

A far better build would be something with Rokugan Ninja and Scout (for the full BAB and speed) or Sneak Attack Variant Fighter (full BAB and fort saves and better hps) or just straight up Rogue//Swordsage for some actual flexibility.Or Sneak Attack Fighter//Swordsage.

[Quietus]

The least they could have done is painted over it a little bit. Really, though, their counterarguments were utterly without foundation.

Amusing as all this is, I think you guys may be laying it on a little thick.


Or Sneak Attack Fighter//Swordsage.

That would actually be a delicious gestalt mix.

[TroubleBrewing]

It's really more of an underpowdered mix. Considering the wealth of more synergistic color choices classes available to the Rouge, I should think it only fair that you allow this combination.

Maybelline only this one time, though. In the future, tell him to be a bit more careful, MmmmaryKay?

[Philistine]

Is the player trying to use Swift Ambusher to double up progression? You might need to explain why that doesn't work by RAW.

[TheRinni]

Thank you everyone,

I told the player in question he'd be allowed to play the rogue/scout, and have the damages stack when he qualified for it. I explained to him that he'd probably be the only player with two low saves, and low hd.

The player ended up falling in love with the Geomancer PrC, and decided to switch his classes up.

[Psyren]

The player ended up falling in love with the Geomancer PrC, and decided to switch his classes up.

That one is pretty strong in Gestalt, so be wary. What classes is he using to qualify?

[TheRinni]

That one is pretty strong in Gestalt, so be wary. What classes is he using to qualify?

Either Cleric and Wizard, or Druid and Wizard. The player is pretty bad at optimizing wizards, and has never played a cleric, so I haven't been particularly worried.

Then again, this is the first Gestalt campaign I've run, so I would greatly appreciate any advice you have on the subject. Are there any ways I can limit/target him if he grows too powerful?

I guess it's also worth mentioning that there are only 3 players in this party.

[Sucrose]

Either Cleric and Wizard, or Druid and Wizard. The player is pretty bad at optimizing wizards, and has never played a cleric, so I haven't been particularly worried.

Then again, this is the first Gestalt campaign I've run, so I would greatly appreciate any advice you have on the subject. Are there any ways I can limit/target him if he grows too powerful?

I guess it's also worth mentioning that there are only 3 players in this party.

If you'd like advice of that sort, it'd probably be best to let us know what the rest of the party is playing, since otherwise we might nerf their combat tactics in the crossfire of giving you the appropriate tools to keep the first player in check.

[JaronK]

Either Cleric and Wizard, or Druid and Wizard. The player is pretty bad at optimizing wizards, and has never played a cleric, so I haven't been particularly worried.

Then again, this is the first Gestalt campaign I've run, so I would greatly appreciate any advice you have on the subject. Are there any ways I can limit/target him if he grows too powerful?

I guess it's also worth mentioning that there are only 3 players in this party.

As a warning, Cleric//Wizard and Druid//Wizard are both VERY powerful, as opposed to Rogue//Scout. Now, they're not the best due to MAD issues, so I suspect your player's not going to be going too overboard, but if he finds the really powerful spells he could easily go downright insane.

Really, it's going to be your judgement as to whether this player will put the full power of the these combos to work. If he will in the long run, you might ask him to slow it down a touch and maybe make a less nasty build.

JaronK

[TheRinni]

If you'd like advice of that sort, it'd probably be best to let us know what the rest of the party is playing, since otherwise we might nerf their combat tactics in the crossfire of giving you the appropriate tools to keep the first player in check.Good point.
One of the other three is playing a Barbarian Monk. I've always been very loose with alignment restrictions, and it's something he's been wanting to play for a long while. Unlike the other members of this party, he is an experienced player, who can optimize quite well.

The third player is aiming for a Shadowbane Inquisitor; I believe his qualifications are going to be Paladin and Rogue. This player is absolutely terrible at building characters, and is having the player who is rolling the Barbarian Monk make it for him.

[Prime32]

Either Cleric and Wizard, or Druid and Wizard. The player is pretty bad at optimizing wizards, and has never played a cleric, so I haven't been particularly worried.Ranger 20//Wizard 10/Geomancer 10 or Paladin 20//Sorcerer 10/Geomancer 10 are builds which are less casty, more smashy.

[Psyren]

As a warning, Cleric//Wizard and Druid//Wizard are both VERY powerful, as opposed to Rogue//Scout. Now, they're not the best due to MAD issues, so I suspect your player's not going to be going too overboard, but if he finds the really powerful spells he could easily go downright insane.

Actually, this is precisely the reason Geomancer is powerful in gestalt. It allows you to change around your casting stat for save DCs and even ignore ASF - making you effectively SAD no matter which two casters you enter with. For instance, a Cleric//Wizard who enters Geomancer can cast all his spells with Wis, spontaneously convert his arcane spells to healing, and use his divine focus for ALL arcane spells instead of the material component.

On top of that, you get a boatload of various natural attacks (standouts include a leopard's pounce, a wolf's trip, a lion's rake, gore attacks etc.), or you can instead go with a variety of sensory increases (scent, blindsense, tremorsense) and other random benefits like skill boosts, untyped speed increases, and flight.

And on top of all that, it's fullcasting. Now normally, this class would be held back by requiring two casters to enter but only progressing one. That drawback actually becomes an advantage in gestalt, because you not only can get in without sacrificing progression, you also aren't restricted with its use like a normal "theurge" would be.

[Fouredged Sword]

Useful in normal play with entry useing a loredrake kobold. You acn sneak in enough sorcerer levels to qualify on straight cleric levels. Pure cheeze though.

[Greenish]

Useful in normal play with entry useing a loredrake kobold. You acn sneak in enough sorcerer levels to qualify on straight cleric levels. Pure cheeze though.Loredrake only enters after level 6, I think a Southern Magician can enter after level 3.

[gkathellar]

Druid//Wizard/Geomancer is crazy strong, as people have pointed out. Replacing Druid with Cleric is only slightly better.

[Sucrose]

Good point.
One of the other three is playing a Barbarian Monk. I've always been very loose with alignment restrictions, and it's something he's been wanting to play for a long while. Unlike the other members of this party, he is an experienced player, who can optimize quite well.

The third player is aiming for a Shadowbane Inquisitor; I believe his qualifications are going to be Paladin and Rogue. This player is absolutely terrible at building characters, and is having the player who is rolling the Barbarian Monk make it for him.

I see. In that case, assuming a fairly standard load-out, occasional enemies with Freedom of Movement, True Seeing, and enemy archers or casters with readied actions to try to disrupt his casting can probably do a fair amount of good, if it becomes an issue.