Pathfinder Barbarian; Overpowered

[Rocketmoose]

Hey all, first post here (not sure if this is the right place for Pathfinder! Sorry if it isn't!)

So I was fiddling around with a Pathfinder character, using all the rules I let my players use when generating. We like more epic storylines and bigger fights, so I let them use a 20-point buy system and a baseline magic item "pool" for when they make higher level characters. One of my players wanted me to help them with a two-weapon fighting barbarian to replace their level 8 fighter who met an unfortunate end. Here's what I got, and it was a bit shocking...

Half-orc Barbarian, level 8
20 Str (base 16, +2 racial, +1 at 4th, +1 at 8th)
17 Dex
12 Con
7 Int, Wis, Cha

That's all well and good, he pretty much can only fight and pick his nose outside of combat which I assumed is what the player wanted. Crazy part is here...

He wanted the Fiend Totem rage features, Renewed vigor and the speed increase. But for feats he told me Improved Critical (Kukri), Two-weapon fighting, improved two-weapon fighting and power attack.

What this means is that, on a full attack in rage with power attack active this character deals (with two kukris, one corrosive burst following my magi item rules) 1d4+14+1d6, 1d4+7, 1d4+14+1d6, 1d4+7 at a 15-20 crit chance and unless I'm mistaken a secondary gore attack from the fiend totem at 1d8+6. Which would mean this character, just rolling 1's on damage dice, deals 55 damage assuming every attack hit. With a 15-20 crit chance this just seems ridiculous...

Any thoughts? I'm not letting the player use that build, it just seems way too powerful. But I did consider it for a villain...

[Gnaeus]

That isn't powerful for a level 8 character who is focused on damage.

A level 8 TWF rogue can easily get 3 sneak attacks per round, with similar damage, and has a lot more utility than the barbarian.

An unoptimized level 8 wizard can cast a single spell targeting the enemies weakest save, with a DC of 20, and if target fails, they lose the fight. That wizard also has a lot more that he can do in combat than the barbarian. He can also fire balls of lightning that do 6d6 damage per round, while the wizard is casting other spells. And that isn't even one of his strongest options.

For another way to look at it, it takes 2+ rounds of hitting with every single attack to kill an equal CR monster, like a stone giant or a triceratops, which is the kind of thing he is likely to be fighting. A power attacking stone giant will do similar damage, with a better chance of hitting.

[Dumbledore lives]

I don't know too much about pathfinder, but in 3.5 that damage sounds about right, especially since you're assuming every attack hits. I've made 3.5 builds that pump out about that damage at level 5, so I wouldn't say it's overpowered. Also I don't think he could take improved critical, since he only qualifies at BAB 8, and he doesn't get a feat then.

[Yuki Akuma]

Barbarians are meant be to good at dealing damage. That's what they're for.

Is it overpowered? Hell no, it's the only thing they can do.

[Rocketmoose]

Well as the DM I usually try to balance out the min-maxing players tend to do and keep PCs as close in power level as I can. Maybe to me this just seemed like something a bit crazy, especially considering he has 27 rounds of rage and dr 4/- from the "Invulnerable Rager" class option.

Though I'm sure there's crazier out there, a rogue could definitely push this further

[Larpus]

As others said, impressive/powerful? Yes. OP? No.

I mean, with a more fun than opmization Alchemist (Vivisectionist) build I brewed myself he can get 66-164 damage on a full attack, that is without considering any items and only self-buffs; while also having more utility than a Barbarian.

[Hiro Protagonest]

So you're assuming his two attacks at a -7 penalty both hit?

And isn't this the level where wizards can fly for 8 minutes with a single spell slot?

[Timeless Error]

What are the builds of the other characters in your group? This seems pretty mild to me, but at a low optimization level, it's true that this character might overshadow other group members.

On the other hand, if the other characters are well-built tier one full casters, the barbarian we have here is going to fall far behind.

[BlueInc]

Um...he's level 8. A level 8 wizard could cast Phantasmal Killer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/phantasmal-killer) and kill someone.

[Gnaeus]

Um...he's level 8. A level 8 wizard could cast Phantasmal Killer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/phantasmal-killer) and kill someone.

He could, but he shouldn't. He has spells that will remove enemies from the fight with only 1 save, there is no reason to give them 2.


Well as the DM I usually try to balance out the min-maxing players tend to do and keep PCs as close in power level as I can. Maybe to me this just seemed like something a bit crazy, especially considering he has 27 rounds of rage and dr 4/- from the "Invulnerable Rager" class option.

Though I'm sure there's crazier out there, a rogue could definitely push this further

He IS min-maxed. 20 strength, 7 on all mentals screams min-maxing. This is a PC that should regularly be doing stupid stuff. But he isn't crazy at all in a power level sense (maybe in a mental state sense). Also, he has no method that I see for pounce or move + full attack, so he can only do all that damage if he starts within 10 feet of an enemy. A charger can do that much damage or more to anything he can reach. A blasting sorcerer can do it from across the battlefield.

A rogue can push it further without breathing hard. Any level 8 rogue with twf and a flanking buddy can do it. I looked at a PF rogue the other day only 3 levels higher (level 11) that got 6 attacks per round with 2 holy short swords, averaging 32 damage per attack. That is almost 200 damage per round.

[Andreaz]

Why (dice+14/dice+7) twice, am I missing any bonus on the first weapon for it to get an extra +7?
Remember that with PF's power attack, at BAB 8 he can only lose 3 BAB for 3 extra damage on each weapon (and he can't choose to lose less, it seems)

55 damage per round is pretty tame for level 8, in line with with the expected output of a non-dumb melee build.

[Eldariel]

Check this:

Human Barbarian 8

Power Attack, Improved Critical and...doesn't really matter.

+1 Falchion (that's right, we're not using weapon enhancements).


Rage. 26 Strength (PB 18; you'll just put 7 in Cha and do this easily - then you have +2 levels and +2 item and Rage).

Your damage is 2d4+12 Strength+9 Power Attack+1 Enhancement. You have 15-20/x2 crit range. Two attacks per turn; average 5+22 = 27 per attack. 52 damage per turn with the same crit range (vs. average of 59 from his Barb; did the math - that's basically only the weapon enhancements). With:
- No Dex requirement (so he can easily afford 2 more in Strength)
- +2 higher to hit (so he actually does more average damage 'cause he hits more often)
- No weapon enhancements
- No alternative class features; this is all core with less resources
- Two feats open
- Higher returns from Haste (which he could acquire through e.g. Boots of Speed)


This is exactly the level of damage these characters are expected to deal when they use both hands offensively and get full attacks. And no, he doesn't crit as often but his crits hurt way worse than the TWFer's (especially his offhand criticals are weaklings).

You're assuming that the character hits all his attacks. Pretty big assumption if we're talking about iteratives at -5 from PA and TWF for something like +9 to hit or something. He's going to miss them most of the time.


Your problem is probably a kneejerk reaction to higher level characters doing significantly more than lower level ones; this is something I've seen a lot. Barbarians do a lot of damage. As they get higher level, they get more damage. They aren't an especially powerful class but far as damage goes, they're pretty much the kings.

The character you're asking about is not even strong; I showcased a character who does the same with far less resources and is as basic as can be (Power Attack, Improved Critical, two-hander, high strength, Core Barbarian). It does not hold a candle to Wizard/Cleric/Druid in terms of true power (or PF Witch or even Summoner for that matter) and basically matches the martial classes (Fighters, Rogues, what-have-you) in damage (Rogue-types have lower To Hit, mind).

If you play on level 8, this is what you should expect. It's what the system is built to output at that point. I strongly suggest against kneejerking when somebody does "amazing damage" or "is too strong"; chances are they are doing precisely what the system expects them to and thus they are competent on a basic level.

I could show you a much stronger Barbarian on the same level; not quite as much damage but reach plus control options enabling him to get tons of bonus attacks in the form of attacks of opportunity (which amount to massive amounts of extra damage), and better attack bonus. I doubt this is necessary though.


EDIT: To be clear, the biggest problem in his build is the terrible To Hit. Using everything you provided:
24 Strength in Rage = +7
BAB 8 = +8
+1 Weapon = +1

For +16 to hit. Then he Power Attacks, -3. Two-Weapon Fights, -2. This gives us primary attacks at +11. Secondaries at +6. Even against some CR 2-3 mobs with AC 20, his average damage is mere 34 per round. By comparison, the Two-Hander build averages 43 damage per turn simply 'cause his base To Hit is +14 while Power Attacking. And again, he's using way less resources; he could take something pointlessly trivial like Weapon Focus to further increase the gap with the feats he's saved. And there's stuff up to AC 27 at CR 8, let alone boss-level monsters (CR 12). Against AC 27, the two-hander still averages 20 damage per turn (not Power Attacking) while the two-weapon fighter averages 15 (also not Power Attacking; using Power Attack against such AC decreases your average damage).

[Killer Angel]

Any thoughts? I'm not letting the player use that build, it just seems way too powerful. But I did consider it for a villain...

Well, if you want a good evaluation of how strong are classes in PF, there's this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7607362&postcount=5) post...

So no. PF Barbarian isn't overpowered: not by itself and neither by comparison with 3.5.

[Retech]

A summoner's Eidolon could easily outdamage the Barbarian, and that's keeping in mind that the Summoner is a 2/3rds caster that is probably in tier 2, basically the only one, because it gets huge discounts on certain spells (Haste as a level 2 spell for example, earliest in the game)

[ericgrau]

assuming every attack hit
At a -5 penalty to attack rolls that's a big assumption. 70 average damage and more likely only half of them for 35 damage per full attack. Probably less than that since he won't get so many hits on secondaries. So less than 35 damage. That's par for level 8. Actually I think he should be doing around 40 or more, so under par.


Um...he's level 8. A level 8 wizard could cast Phantasmal Killer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/phantasmal-killer) and kill someone.
If they fail two different saves. Single target save-or-loses tend to be even worse than caster direct damage which is worse than melee damage. At least pick an area spell if you're going to cast something with a save.

[Eldariel]

If they fail two different saves. Single target save-or-loses tend to be even worse than caster direct damage which is worse than melee damage. At least pick an area spell if you're going to cast something with a save.

By the OP's "everything hits"-assumption though, it's quite the decent spell being able to one-shot everything for one level 4 slot :smallbiggrin:

[Thespianus]

Any thoughts? I'm not letting the player use that build, it just seems way too powerful. But I did consider it for a villain...

Remember that it's very unlikely that every one of the attacks will hit, unless he's attacking a sack of grain. ;)

Also, if you want to compare damage output, imagine a Rouge 1/Barbarian 7 instead, with the Craven feat. That would add 1D6+8 to every single one of the attack damage rolls, and assuming he hits with all attacks in a situation that allows Sneak Attack damage, that's 9 more damage per hit, even if he rolls a 1 on the damage die.

So your straight up Barbarian isn't very optimized, and you should consider yourself lucky he didn't go for a charging power attacking Greatsword-wielding character, that would make the damage do way higher. ;)

In short, I think you should allow it. It's not overpowered at level 8.

[Lord Bingo]

Whether or not the damage potential of this barbarian build is up to par I think that you are making a mistake focusing only on the barbarians ability to deal damage and ignore survivability.

Traditionally barbarians do not have great AC which means that they have to withstand damage with HP. This build neglects to address how the character is going to live through combat. On average this character will have a measly 74 HP which becomes 90 HP when he rages. Not exactly impressive...
His relatively low AC will mean that this characters standard method for exiting combat is to fall unconscious on the ground when he reaches 0 HP or less. When a raging barbarian falls unconscious he also automatically stops raging which means he looses the +16 HP bonus from the CON increase. In the best of all worlds a level 8 barbarian is now at -16 HP. With a CON of 12 this means that he is deader than a doornail!

Now, there are feats and rage powers to amend this issue somewhat but that sadly does not change that this particular build is doomed to last the player less than a session, as he will enter melee confident that he is Godly and get knocked 6 feet under in two rounds by a standard CR 8 monster. This BTW is if you are nice and take him down by hand rather than exploiting his abysmal will save...

My suggestion is this:
First rework his stats to: STR 16, DEX 16, CON 18, INT 10, WIS 10, CHA 7. This way you drastically increase his survivability AND you make him usable outside combat. He will still have STR 20 when raging and magic items can increase this too.
Second: Get rid of the two weapon feat tree and put a falchion in his hands and have him carry a shield and a scimitar for when he wants to conserve his strength. Do not forget to have him carry a composite bow for backup when he cannot get up close and personal with his enemies.

This is all I can think of right now, without turning this into an essay:smallbiggrin:

[ImperatorK]

Lol. The OP is afraid that PWFing Barbarian is too OP and you are suggesting him to make the PC even more OP? :smallamused:

[Eldariel]

Lol. The OP is afraid that PWFing Barbarian is too OP and you are suggesting him to make the PC even more OP? :smallamused:

No, we're pointing out that it's in line with what a level 8 martial character should be capable of. Hell, Fighter can do the same. Even TWF Fighter; observe:

2xKukri with Weapon Spec + Greater Focus and Weapon Training in them (+1). 22 strength (absolutely trivial; buy 16, +2 racial, +2 levels, +2 item).

+3 damage and +2 to hit on both hands; 8 BAB, +6 strength, +1 weapon. Power Attack for a total of +11 to hit, 1d4+14 and 1d4+8, same crit range.


I'm just saying; that's exactly the offensive output a level 8 offensive (no-shield) melee character should have.

[Lord Bingo]

Lol. The OP is afraid that PWFing Barbarian is too OP and you are suggesting him to make the PC even more OP? :smallamused:

What we are trying to point out is that the min/max build the OP fears to be over powered due to its potential damage output is in fact not specially impressive for an 8th level melee build.

[ImperatorK]

It is impressive to him. So, maybe, it is overpowered in his group?
Either way, suggesting to make the PC more stronger when the OP wants it to NOT be too strong, is IMO counter-productive. YMMV.

[Lord Bingo]

It is impressive to him. So, maybe, it is overpowered in his group?
Either way, suggesting to make the PC more stronger when the OP wants it to NOT be too strong, is IMO counter-productive. YMMV.

Well, as I read it the OP is asking for our thoughts on whether or not his impression of the Pathfinder Barbarian is correct. We argue that it is not and we try to support our claim with examples.

This kind of damage output might have been unexpected to him. What we are trying to do is to show him that this is in fact it should not be so.

-edit-
YMMV?

[ImperatorK]

Yes, but then he said that he's trying to balance the party, so maybe that PC is too powerful in his group.

Your mileage may vary.

[Boci]

Yes, but then he said that he's trying to balance the party, so maybe that PC is too powerful in his group.

Maybe its just me, but given the tone of the post it appears the OP is just over reacting to the sheer size of numbers without putting them in context. But really there is no use arguable about it until we hear from him again about the rest of the party members.

[Greenish]

Either way, suggesting to make the PC more stronger when the OP wants it to NOT be too strong, is IMO counter-productive.Well, the OP expressed interest in making the the character a baddie for the PCs to fight. For that purpose, rebalancing the build to have even a shred of defences is hardly "counterproductive".

[faceroll]

In my (3.5 non-PF) experience, moderately optimized martial characters at level 7 to 11 do roughly 50 damage in a round, on a full attack, if all their attacks land. Monks, rogues, and rangers tend to have more variable outcomes, as things like DR and immunities tend to interfere with their attack style.

Speaking of which, any DR monsters have will greatly reduce the damage effectiveness of your player's barbarian.

It also looks like the Barbarian is taking some pretty heavy penalties to hit. If you factored those in with the ACs of CR8 monsters, you'd see he's likely only doing 20-30 damage on a full attack.

[edit]
In my opinion, martial characters SHOULD do large amounts of damage when they can finally close to an enemy. For many of them, getting close enough is quite difficult, and after a few rounds next to a giant or a dragon, they're going to run out of chances to do damage.

[Xtomjames]

Definitely not over powered in the slightest. Besides at 8th level he'll be taking as much damage as he's dealing (especially with those mental scores). It's not even an optimized class. Had he made the kukris keen, and traded the improved critical for cleave, or had he dropped combat expertise and applied double slice and two weapon rend (because in Pathfinder you can rend armor) he'd be far more dangerous. (Though I'll note for the two weapon rend you have to have a BAB of +11).

[stack]

I may have missed it, but I don't think you can power attack with light weapons. The feat for that is piranha strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/piranha-strike-combat).

[ericgrau]

Pathfinder doesn't seem to have that restriction. I did notice that piranha strike doesn't require a 13 strength, so that may be the difference right there. It also notes how you can't combine it with power attack, which would only be possible if power attack were usable with light weapons.

[Big Fau]

It is impressive to him. So, maybe, it is overpowered in his group?

He's having a reaction common to any DM who's never seen a mid-level Melee character. This reaction is something that needs to be cured, because it leads to Melees not having nice things (not that PF actually gave them that many).


Either way, suggesting to make the PC more stronger when the OP wants it to NOT be too strong, is IMO counter-productive. YMMV.

The counter-intuitive part is asking a player to lower his damage output when that player is playing a class specifically designed to deal damage.


In fact, dealing decent damage is one of the three points to playing a noncaster in the first place. Take that away, and you take away a third of the reason to play a noncaster.

[Andreaz]

Piranha Strike doesn't require any stat because it requires Weapon Finesse.

PF power Attack doesn't mention light weapons.
You get a -1 penalty, which increases by another -1 for every 4 BAB. BAB 8 means then that you take a -3 penalty.

Then you get twice that penalty as a bonus to damage. -1:+2.
offhand weapons get half that bonus.
2h weapons get 1,5 times that bonus.

So it's -3:+3, -3:+6 and -3:+9 for Offhand, 1h and 2h weapons at BAB 8.

Also PF cleave sucks. Great Cleave is a mini whirlwind attack instead.

[TwylyghT]

While admitting I know a lot more about 3.5 than pathfinder, it seems well in line if not even on the low side of reasonable expectation. Hell *Bards* can be around these numbers (not even counting Bardbarians)

[SowZ]

He's found a reasonably effective build. Don't take it away from him or discourage it. Barbarians/Fighters/Rogues have to utilize their best traits if there are any spellcasters or else become obsolete.

[Greenish]

Had he made the kukris keen, and traded the improved critical for cleaveCleave, meh. Imp. Crit on TWF saves quite a bit of WBL that can be invested better.


While admitting I know a lot more about 3.5 than pathfinder, it seems well in line if not even on the low side of reasonable expectation. Hell *Bards* can be around these numbers (not even counting Bardbarians)But then, bards are a very strong class.


Running the numbers, since we're assuming every attack hits (since, incidentally, this monk has the same to hit with his attacks), a level 8 PF monk can deal 54 damage with flurry + PA + 20 str. 58 if flurry bonus attacks don't count as offhand for PA.

And that's before magic items or feats.

[Sengachi]

Wanna make him REALLY OP? Permanent Enlarge Person + a huge weapon. Yah, now the pain may begin.

[Yuki Akuma]

Hell *Bards* can be around these numbers (not even counting Bardbarians)

Very, very easily. Because Bards are awesome.

A Bard can outdamage a Barbarian, solo - although he'll probably be buffing the Barbarian's damage output a ton at the same time in a group setting.

+8~d6 sonic damage? Per attack? Yes please.

[Arbane]

Very, very easily. Because Bards are awesome.
(SNIP)
+8~d6 sonic damage? Per attack? Yes please.

In Pathfinder? How do you do that?

[The Glyphstone]

In Pathfinder? How do you do that?

Not in PF alone, that's with imported 3.5 material.

[Yuki Akuma]

Isn't imported 3.5 material legal in Pathfinder? I'm always given the impression that it is.

But then I've never played Pathfinder and don't intend to start, so..!

[Big Fau]

Isn't imported 3.5 material legal in Pathfinder? I'm always given the impression that it is.

But then I've never played Pathfinder and don't intend to start, so..!

They claim it is, but actually porting some things over really doesn't work out. Spells can be ported over easily so long as those spells don't provide a bonus to a combat ability, but stuff like Incarnum would be a nightmare to actually use in PF.



And let's not get started on other MMs.

[Rimeheart]

If he was serious about power playing he would have made himself a golaith or a half gaint so he could use weapons one step size larger and still get those nice str buffs.

[Starbuck_II]

They claim it is, but actually porting some things over really doesn't work out. Spells can be ported over easily so long as those spells don't provide a bonus to a combat ability, but stuff like Incarnum would be a nightmare to actually use in PF.



And let's not get started on other MMs.

Wait, Incarnum wouldn't be a nightmare, it would be the same.

They buffed Pathfinder classes so it shouldn't be a issue to use as-is Incarnum classes.

[Big Fau]

Wait, Incarnum wouldn't be a nightmare, it would be the same.

They buffed Pathfinder classes so it shouldn't be a issue to use as-is Incarnum classes.

Several Soulmelds provide bonuses for specific actions, such as tripping or grappling, and these abilities have to be translated properly (never mind that the bonuses they provide can be very high by comparison), let alone the changes to the skill system making some soulmelds weaker while boosting others.

And, in all honesty, if Paizo actually obtained the legal-rights to port it, I doubt they would leave the soulmelds unnerfed. Those people freak out when you show them a Chain Tripper's damage output (which is actually quite modest compared to the OP's Barbarian). I highly doubt they would react kindly to the knowledge that a Totemist can get a grapple check in the mid-70's, comparable to that of a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon.




Never mind that Sinfire Titan would have an aneurysm or something if he ever found out.

[Wagadodo]

Not in PF alone, that's with imported 3.5 material.

Actually you can now do it with the Ultimate Combat with a Feat, At least add sonic damage to attacks. With Discordent Voice allies within 30' deal an extra 1D6 of sonic damage. You just need to be to have Perform Sing/Oratory at 10 ranks.