Kinda neat idea for a campaign..whups, you're all undead!

[Graha013]

So the name of our FB group as we get ready to launch my campaign is TPK @ CKY. It stands for Total Party Kill at..Camp Kill Yourself. I've been pumping them up - I've got a mix of new, intermediate, and experienced players - that this would be a fun, consistent, dungeon crawling adventure, and the ideas and the builds they have come back to me with have been pretty genuine.

So my idea that will throw them all for a loop (and may be very cliche) is that within the first or second session they are going to be killed by the BBEG and cursed/raised as undead. I've got to review the material when work frees me up (we're not starting until September), but I thought it would be neat to have the type of undead be relatively random - giving them a couple of options based on their base-build, and using the regular undead templates to "reanimate" their characters during the third session - and going from there.


Any thoughts on this? I think it'd be pretty cool from a players perspective, and the (expected) response as they are TPK'd and then brought back from the dead will be pretty fun too.

[JaronK]

I played a Dread Necromancer that tried to turn the party undead once. It was a lot of fun, and in the end half of the party went with it (Necropolitan). Certainly, it's easier to do downtime healing for undead, as there are many endless slow healing options for them.

JaronK

[Rei_Jin]

Try and limit the level adjustments you put on offer to your players. Too much level adjustment will kill the fun. I'd keep it to a max of +3 LA, simply so you can buy it back before level 20.

The other option that works is to do Gestalt with the monster levels on one side, and the PC classes on the other.

[agahii]

1st, you should use pathfinder or some alternate method of determining ECL.

2nd, make sure the deaths are not DM fiat, if the PCs actually win by some miracle, roll with it.

3rd, awesome idea grats

[Karsh]

Watch out for the people who dump points into CON and maybe give them those PB points back after they're undead-ified.

[Greenish]

Watch out for the people who dump points into CON and maybe give them those PB points back after they're undead-ified.Yeah, this. And keep an eye on melee smackers, undead tend to be fragile for their ECL.

Maybe the BBEG who made them undead had corpsecrafter feats etc?

[Jack_Simth]

Watch out for the people who dump points into CON and maybe give them those PB points back after they're undead-ified.Dude: Very nearly everyone puts a decent chunk of points into con. It's stat priority 2 or 3 for most builds.

For the vast majority of builds, going undead is a very significant loss.

[agahii]

Yeah, I'd say anyone that had a +modifier to con give em undead focused benefits to make up for the + they are losing.

Like corpsecrafter was used for anyone that had a +2 originally, add created in a desecrated area for those with a +3, for characters with +4 make em desecrated with an alter to a dark god and corpsecrafter. Go on from there if someone has more. If someone had +0 or -w/e don't give them any extras.

[Safety Sword]

AD&D had a boxed set called Requiem: The Grim Harvest.

Pretty much does what you're trying to do. PCs "fail" to stop the BBEG from completing his "ritual of ultimate douchebaggery" and they all get turned into undead.

Hilarity ensues as a vampire, lich and skeletal warrior hack each other "to death" in the following 5 minutes after the campaign resumes :smallamused:

Good times.

Edit: I guess the moral to the story is that your players should be perfectly aware that this is going to be the character they get. We played our "live" characters from Level 1 to Level 8 and then had the change sprung on us. Unfortunately we also randomly rolled what undead we became, so it sucked for most of us. We went all evil PvP so we could restart another campaign :smallfrown:

[Ravens_cry]

Dude: Very nearly everyone puts a decent chunk of points into con. It's stat priority 2 or 3 for most builds.

For the vast majority of builds, going undead is a very significant loss.

Aye. An undead campaign is better planned, in my opinion, as such from the start rather than springing this on players.

[Rei_Jin]

Weeell, another option is to get the players to treat their Charisma as the stat that adds to their HP and their Fort Save, instead of Constitution. Considering that many undead get a Charisma boost, this should help things.

Also, if the PCs in question had more than a 4 point gap between their charisma and their constitution before becoming an undead, reduce the gap to 4 points. That way the loss doesn't hurt so much.

Of course, you could just say that their existing HP don't change, but any future hitpoints gained do. Easiest solution I can think of.

[Ravens_cry]

Not really a "solution" if the campaign is meant to continue much longer, as the hit points gained from levelling will put the front-liners farther and farther behind.
Edit: I apologize if this sounds snarly and condescending.

[Rei_Jin]

*Shrugs* They get a d12 hitdie for being undead. That in itself helps some, and many undead get Fast Healing, which can help with the rest of it.

It truly depends on the optimisation level of the party as to how much it will matter.

[OldFart]

Campaign idea sounds very cool! I would recommend:

Don't spoil the surprise for the players
Like agahii said, if one or more PCs happen to live through the "TPK," roll with it. Great role-playing angst potential in joining up w/ former comrades-in-arms to help them find eternal rest. Even more for undead PCS trying not to look at their living friends as walking snacks.
One of the best TPK ideas is the way-over-the-APL CR encounter, a fight they have no chance to win. Then, many levels down the line, they get a second crack at the guy who hasn't improved that much. Great way to underscore character growth.
Come up with a list of "balanced" undead to pick from. Try to have the same LA, or abilities you think are balanced.You can use templates and things like corpse-crafter feats to even things up.
Problem w/ Con stat is easy - determine how you want everybody to generate their stats, then "generously announce" that everyone receives a free 18 Con in this campaign (and no, they can't switch it). It's a little harder to complain about the DM taking away a freebie he gave everybody in the first place.
While you're tossing out weird house rules, makes sure no one bans necromancy, disallow worshiping certain deities, etc. You may want to discourage paladins while you're at it.

[Pechvarry]

Perhaps this is heavy-handed, but I like the idea of having limited/no mechanical effects for being undead. Undead in D&D is pretty weird as it is. I think about games like Demon's Souls where even when you're a "phantom", you apparently still suffer falling damage, get shot with arrows, pull levers, etc.

Likewise, I don't see a reason for "you've been raised by a necromancer" to mean no CON score (what does that even represent?) and pointlessly huge blanket immunities. Swapping negative/positive energy's effects on the players is still cool in my book, though.

[Fax Celestis]

Read Ghostwalk.

[Andorax]

It does sound like an interesting premise. You might consider "softening" the blow of getting turned undead by making it a purely mechanical plus. If the entire party came back with the Vampire template added, or the Mummy template (there is one), etc...but otherwise kept what they already had, then the campaign event becomes a significant "level up" bonus/boost. Since it's obviously at the end of a significant campaign arc, a sizable jump in power wouldn't be disruptive, and if the BBEG is willing to cough up some gear for his new set of elite minions, WBL can be covered as well.

Another (if practical) way for the PCs to achieve some separation from their past lives....set the "new" campaign 50-100 years in the future. Everyone they know or cared about is already dead. Corpses can have a remarkable shelf life with the right methods employed.

First adventure out for them should be about discovering what they can do, and how good they are at it...as such, it should be underpowered. Let them revel in their new abilities and ride roughshod over the mere mortals for a little bit. Its another way to make them not feel like they've been totall ripped off, and that instead the DM has something cool and interesting planned after all.

Note, I would NOT allow one PC to escape and to "just roll with it". If you're going to do it, do it whole cloth and make the campaign tie into it. Between the power jump and the nature of some of the missions (excursions into the negative plane, fighting in places that have poison gas, or no air at all, etc.).

Try to make this all have a PURPOSE. Not just why did it happen, but why THEM? What special set of abilities and powers does this particular adventuring party bring to the table that are vitally necessary for the BBEG to carry out his latest plan.

[DrDeth]

Umm, no- I would start this campaign with the PC’s already dead, and the BBEG killing them off as the backstory. Players don’t like having their PC’s killed, and finding out that the DM deliberately did so would be annoying at best.

[TurtleKing]

Lets see what book had several undead racial levels? I know Savage Species has the Shadow. The incorporeal undead can get a feat that allows them to handle items. Plus a lot of support for the undead in that book.

[Jack_Simth]

mean no CON score (what does that even represent?)Constitution, in D&D, is a thing of the living. You eat, you breathe, you have a pulse, you have a Con score. Some things don't do all of those, but still have Con - but nothing without a Con score does any of those. If you're not alive, you don't have a constitution score - with some exceptions, your flesh is essentially an animate object. You're not affected by poison or disease (not any more than, say, a tree that's already been cut down is, anyway), because you have no real metabolism.

[Togath]

Umm, no- I would start this campaign with the PC’s already dead, and the BBEG killing them off as the backstory. Players don’t like having their PC’s killed, and finding out that the DM deliberately did so would be annoying at best.
That makes things easier, just provide a list of suitable undead for when they are making their characters, from what I’ve seen; ghasts, ghouls, and skeletons make fairly good races for PCs, and if everyone is stating as one you can just ignore some of the level adjustments(skeletons probably only need a +1 level adjustment even in a standard campaign as they only have +2 natural armor, +2 dex, and DR 5/bludgeoning[which is easy to break through, even most natural attacks can overcome it], and ghouls/ghasts only about a +2 or +3 level adjustment)

[Flickerdart]

Hand out instances of Improved Toughness equal to their old Constitution modifier. Easy peasy.

[Talentless]

Or... you could just hand wave it and dump the difference between their Con and Cha into Cha.

So if they have 16 Con and 12 Cha, they go from 12 Cha to 16 Cha once undead.

But only if their Con is higher than their Cha (So bards and sorcs don't hit the jackpot.) That way they lose nothing from con hitting nothing and the problem is solved.

[Graha013]

Sorry for the delay in responding - I get very few breaks from work through the 14th of August, and no days off until the 19th. Can't tell you how happy I am to get some feedback - both positive/go for it and negative/might not go well - thoughts.

Taking all advise into consideration, and while I think utilizing some of the mundane non-sentient sort of undead, such as skellies and zombies, might be under serving the purpose of the campaign, I don't want to go too far into shadows, spectres, ghosts, wraiths, etc. I like the idea of limiting their abilities, or researching a way that, once they have the template and base abilities, the undead aspect is treated like a paragon class, where they can either continue their character class levels OR advance in strength as an undead. But I don't want that to get too convoluted either.

All of the players will be turning in their character sheet to me prior to the campaign beginning so I can review and choose some options for them without hindering or destroying the build.

[TurtleKing]

With a racial class for the undead you get a small portion of the traits and abilities at level 1. That way they don't steamroll through everything.

[Pechvarry]

Constitution, in D&D, is a thing of the living. You eat, you breathe, you have a pulse, you have a Con score. Some things don't do all of those, but still have Con - but nothing without a Con score does any of those. If you're not alive, you don't have a constitution score - with some exceptions, your flesh is essentially an animate object. You're not affected by poison or disease (not any more than, say, a tree that's already been cut down is, anyway), because you have no real metabolism.

The big problem is hardiness, though. The ability to withstand, where there shouldn't be a significant difference in basic anatomy between a human and a necropolitan. A necropolitan lich should be less hardy than a same-HD barbarian. But they're both d12s, and the imposing stature of the barbarian means nothing.

I'm liking Flickerdart's suggestion: for every +1 of CON they had, add (HD) bonus HP.

[Madwand99]

Becoming undead is one surprise that would cause me to hand over my character sheet and say "call me when you're thinking about starting a new campaign."

[bassmasterginga]

give them improved toughness for every point of con

[danzibr]

Wow, I'm amazed at some of the negative responses. As a player (and DM) I totally love this idea. I don't have any suggestions which haven't already been said. I do like the wait 50 years... and the reawakening can be very awesome. I'm thinking Planescape: Torment.

[Talentless]

The big problem is hardiness, though. The ability to withstand, where there shouldn't be a significant difference in basic anatomy between a human and a necropolitan. A necropolitan lich should be less hardy than a same-HD barbarian. But they're both d12s, and the imposing stature of the barbarian means nothing.

I'm liking Flickerdart's suggestion: for every +1 of CON they had, add (HD) bonus HP.

True... but your also neglecting a secondary aspect of hardiness. Pain. Something dead doesn't feel pain from injuries, allowing them to walk around calmly without an arm.

A hulking barbarian can take a beating, but once his rage wears off, he's not going to be walking around missing an arm like it is only a flesh wound, he's going to be on the ground screaming about how is arm is ****ing gone.

[danzibr]

Hmm, so how exactly are you making them undead? Are you just changing their type to undead but not actually making them a skeleton or zombie or anything? Mindless undead would be a terrible idea. For that matter, are they going to retain their individuality? How are they going to rebel against the BBEG? Surely he wouldn't just let them go. Hmm...

[Jack_Simth]

Wow, I'm amazed at some of the negative responses. As a player (and DM) I totally love this idea. I don't have any suggestions which haven't already been said. I do like the wait 50 years... and the reawakening can be very awesome. I'm thinking Planescape: Torment.Most of the negative bit is from springing it on the players. If they go in, knowing that at some point they'll be deliberately wiped and then animated as an undead that seems synergistic, it's a different ballgame.

[Togath]

Hmm, so how exactly are you making them undead? Are you just changing their type to undead but not actually making them a skeleton or zombie or anything? Mindless undead would be a terrible idea. For that matter, are they going to retain their individuality? How are they going to rebel against the BBEG? Surely he wouldn't just let them go. Hmm...
Actually, much like animals, golems or grass, a mindless undead can be awakened, so it is feasible to have players playing otherwise mindless undead, but the only one that seems worth it as a PC to me is the skeleton, the zombie just moves to slow, and there are already intelligent(and faster) variants(such as ghouls, ghasts, or wights, even liches[at least the fleshy ones])

[danzibr]

Ahh I see. I'm still wondering from a RP PoV how they rebel against their master.

[Graha013]

Ahh I see. I'm still wondering from a RP PoV how they rebel against their master.

Still building the story arc and line, but I'm looking at ways to incorporate a BBEG who isn't actually raising them to be slaves, but their death and related undeath are more of a side effect - such as dying in an area of high negative energy (I'm thinking something along the lines of the ghosts of Gauntlegrym). Undeath as a curse and not as a link to a master. Wasn't there a vampire elf in ..Dark Sun? named Jasper or something like that with a similar story? I can't remember - use to have so many of those cards and Spelljammer playing card things when I was much, much younger.

[Psyren]

2nd, make sure the deaths are not DM fiat, if the PCs actually win by some miracle, roll with it.

Until you get them back on the rails by slaughtering them later :smallwink:

[Graha013]

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Holy crap balls. As a youth (6-10?) I had these cards. I remember buying them at the Albany, GA flea market and having HUNDREDS of them. Just found this on ebay, and while not post related, these were the most winningest cards I wish I still had around now that I'm getting back into D20. haha

[Morph Bark]

Dude: Very nearly everyone puts a decent chunk of points into con. It's stat priority 2 or 3 for most builds.

For the vast majority of builds, going undead is a very significant loss.

Unless going undead is of course the focus of the build.

[WalkingTarget]

Most of the negative bit is from springing it on the players. If they go in, knowing that at some point they'll be deliberately wiped and then animated as an undead that seems synergistic, it's a different ballgame.

Yeah, surprises can be fun, but this sounds like the sort of things where you'd really be better off having player buy-in first.

A buddy of mine wrote a blog post about this topic last year. Here (http://benjaminbernard.blogspot.com/2010/04/cloak-dagger-and-dragons.html) it is (specifically the second part, "No more secrets!").

[Psyren]

I don't think the Con thing is a big enough drawback to ruin the surprise over, especially if you follow Flickerdart's suggestion of giving them free stacks of Imp. Toughness to make up for it.

[Graha013]

I don't think the Con thing is a big enough drawback to ruin the surprise over, especially if you follow Flickerdart's suggestion of giving them free stacks of Imp. Toughness to make up for it.

I also haven't ruled out homebrewing some rules specifically for the undead, to give it a more pallatable change over and not make it too difficult for the newer players (without taking out some of the neat tricks the experienced players may realize are now possible..)