Balancing mundane weapons

[137beth]

Due to the negative reception, and the fact that other people have already done this better, I am PARTIALLY abandoning this project. I MIGHT finish going through the PHB weapons (which I seem to be able to do quickly), but I will NOT be expanding this into a more intricate upgrade system. After I have finished reviewing every other PHB melee weapon, I will not be continuing to change/update this, nor will I readjust mundane weapons presented in other books. If you want a better in-depth system, use Seerow's.

It's no secret that all mundane melee weapons are not created equal. Many exotic weapons are considered inferior to their martial counterparts (not worth the extra feat for exotic weapon proficiency). The goal of this thread is to tweak the mundane melee weapons to be appropriately powered for their tier (simple, martial, or exotic). I'll be using Jiriku's system for balancing melee weapons:

It assumes that weapons receive a 9-point buy.

{table=head]TRAINING|COST
Exotic|0
Martial|2
Simple|3[/table]

{table=head]DAMAGE DIE|COST
1|0
d4|1
d6|2
d8/2d4|3
d10|4
d12/2d6|5[/table]

{table=head]EASE OF USE|COST
Two-handed|0
One-handed|2
Light|3[/table]

{table=head]DAMAGE TYPE|COST
Piercing|0
Slashing|1
Bludgeoning|1[/table]

{table=head]CRIT MULTIPLIER|COST
20/x2|0
20/x3|1
19-20/x2|1
18-20/x2|2
20/x4|2
19-20/x3|3
18-20/x3|5
18-20/x4|8[/table]

{table=head]SPECIAL|COST
Thrown 10 ft|1
Thrown 20 ft|2
+2 to skill|1
+4 to skill|2
reach|1
set vs charge|1
monk weapon|2
double weapon|2*
other specials|1 or 2[/table]

*build each half separately as a one-handed weapon and buy the double weapon benefit for both halves.


I will only list weapons which require change, or have some special property worth discussing. For each one, I will give the point-breakdown of the PHB version of the weapon, then give how I would adjust the weapon. Whenever the point value is unclear, I will give a range.
So, let us begin:
Simple Melee Weapons
Light Melee Weapons
Unarmed Strike:
RAW: 3 points spent on being light, 3 on simple, 1 on bludgeoning, and the damage cost is somewhere between 0 and 1 points. Dealing non-lethal damage should probably give a bonus point to be spent elsewhere. Thus the unarmed strike has only spent ~6.5 out of its 9 points.
Fix: Unarmed strike is intended to be inferior to using a gauntlet. This is one of the few times I think a weapon should actually be underpowered. I'd still change its damage to 1d4, but 7 points is fine for a free weapon that cannot be masterwork and will never be used by anyone actually intending to fight in melee.

Gauntlet:
Raw: 6 points spent on simple/light, 1 on bludgeoning, and somewhere between 0 and 1 on damage. Underpowered at 7 to 8 points.
Fix: I suggest increasing the damage to 1d6.

Dagger:
Raw: 6 points from simple/light, +2 to slight of hand (1 pt), thrown 10 ft. increment (1 pt.), 1d4 damage (1), 1 point on critical threat range, at least 1 point for slashing damage (possibly more because of the choice of damage type). The dagger clocks in the 11-12 range, extremely overpowered. Note that for most martial classes, it is still a poor choice, since being a simple weapon gives a huge hit to power. However, a martial class can be effective with a dagger--see the daggermaster prestige class in my homebrew.
Fix:This weapon needs some serious nerfing. I suggest making the damage piercing only, and eliminating the bonus to slight of hand (that seems to be the least helpful bonus in there). This brings it down to a 9-point weapon. Alternatively, you could keep the bonus to hiding, and just make it a martial weapon (or, you could make a more intricate variation on the dagger, which is martial). The problem with the dagger is that all of its buffs seem justified from a fluff perspective, but they make the weapon too powerful for a simple weapon.

Punching Dagger:
RAW: Unlike its normal counterpart, the punching dagger is underpowered, with only 8 points.
Fix: Increase the damage to 1d6.

Spiked Gauntlet:
RAW: The immunity to disarming is worth about 1 point, and, as Lord Vukodlak pointed out (see below), it has other benefits worth an additional point. This makes it roughly a 9 point weapon.
Fix: N/A

One-Handed Melee Weapons
Morningstar:
RAW: It deals both bludgeoning and piercing damage...this is probably not worth an extra point, and so the damage type only costs it the one point for bludgeoning. This puts it right at 9 points.
Fix: N/A
Wow, none of the simple one handed weapons required fixing, a heck of a lot better than WotC did in most categories of the core rules.

Two-Handed Melee Weapons

Longspear:
RAW: 1 point for being able to deal double damage against a charging opponent, plus 8 points from other stuff.
Fix: Because it is a 2-handed weapon, I would suggest changing the damage to 2d4. Or just leave it as is.

Quarterstaff:
RAW: Under the 9-point system, double weapons are treated as two one-handed weapons, each of which should be 7 points. Both ends of the quarterstaff are identical (...boring...), and each total 8 points.
Fix: I think quarterstaffs are awesome for no particular reason...so I would just make it a martial weapon, and keep the power the same. If you want to keep it simple, then decrease the damage to 1d4/1d4. Alternatively, keep the damage as is, but make it non-lethal damage. Meh, I just like the quarterstaff too much to want to nerf it, so I'd make it martial.

Martial Melee Weapons
Light Melee Weapons
Pick, light:
RAW: 8 points
Fix: Change the critical range to 19-20/x3

Sap:
RAW: Counting the non-lethal damage as a -1 penalty, the sap is currently at 7 points.
Fix: Honestly, I'd make it a simple weapon, then increase the critical range to 19-20/x2. It never should have been a martial weapon.

[Seerow]

I already did something pretty much like this some time ago. Link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=202722).

[Lord Vukodlak]

Weapons shouldn't all be equal, limitations in weapon proficiencies or restrictions can be a major factor as can little tricks different weapons can do.

The spiked gauntlet is perfectly fine the way it is. A fighter can wear spiked gauntlets while wielding a greatsword if they get grappled or swallowed they already have a weapon in hand The spiked gauntlet.

Also no weapon should have a critical mod like 19-20/x3, 18-20/x3, 18-20/x4.

[137beth]

I did the simple one-handed weapons...nothing required a fix, and only the morningstar got a discussion.


I already did something pretty much like this some time ago. Link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=202722).

Ah, I think I remember seeing it when you first posted it. Regardless, I am going to continue this project because
1. You have left out some weapons (which you mentioned), while I intend to cover all of the PHB weapons, and
2. Jiriku's system seems too good to discard, and I don't mind having multiple fixes to the same rule set.


Weapons shouldn't all be equal, limitations in weapon proficiencies or restrictions can be a major factor as can little tricks different weapons can do.
For many fighter variants, your build is largely characterized by your weapon of choice. The "little tricks different weapons can do" can help set these apart, and increase character specialization. However, if one weapon's fighting style (and the weapon itself) is substantially better than the others, then any other build is suboptimal, and we see less specialization. I'm not deleting the uniqueness of weapons, I'm just trying to make sure that this uniqueness does not come at the cost of balance.


Also no weapon should have a critical mod like 19-20/x3, 18-20/x3, 18-20/x4.
In case you hadn't noticed, I copied the system from Jiriku, who chose to include 18-20/x4 in his system. I agree that it is somewhat crazy, but I am not inclined to say that absolutely nothing should ever have it. And, it costs 8 points, which (unless some you introduce some disadvantage not written in to the point system), means that the weapon must be two handed exotic, and either deal a single point of damage, or deal 1d4 piercing damage with no other effects. It's an extremely critical-focused weapon, but sucks at everything else (and probably isn't very good overall). So yes, I would agree that almost no weapon should have 18-20/x4 as a crit range, and I can say with certainty that I would NOT assign it in the process of fixing the PHB weapons, but I left it in purely because I was quoting. And, quite frankly, I don't mind having it in the system for completion's sake, even if I would probably never design a weapon that used it.

[Seerow]

Ah, I think I remember seeing it when you first posted it. Regardless, I am going to continue this project because
1. You have left out some weapons (which you mentioned), while I intend to cover all of the PHB weapons, and
2. Jiriku's system seems too good to discard, and I don't mind having multiple fixes to the same rule set.


1. Someone else did the weapons I left out, and I think they actually are in the first post's table now, though I didn't update the text. And really, the reason they were left out is because my goal was to be more comprehensive in pricing various qualities, and the weapons I skipped were ones with unique properties that wouldn't fit anywhere else (for example the whip not doing damage to armored targets, and being a weird reach/ranged weapon hybrid)

2) A point buy system is a point buy system. And several aspects of Jiriku's system are pretty weird. For example Bludgeoning and Slashing damage costing points to have instead of piercing. A lot of other properties are also overcosted, and there's a ton of potential abilities that just don't show up.

[SowZ]

This increases the power of classes like Exoticist, Kensai, and Targeteer that get exotic weapons as class features.

[137beth]

I think the reason bludgeon and slashing cost a point more than piercing is because there are supposedly fewer creatures with resistance/immunity to them. Also, IIRC jiriku said his system was "reverse engineered from the PHB", so if WotC considered something unusually valuable (such as giving +2 to one skill...) then his system would too. Like virtually every other point-buy system, it is imperfect, and like so many fixes on these forums, this thread is made partially redundant by the fact that someone else has already made a different fix to the same thing (really, how many fighter-fixes do we have?)
Finally, I never really expected this to be a particularly spectacular homebrew idea, or to go into as much depth as you did. But it seems to be going very quickly, so I may as well finish it.

Oh, and I have now finished the simple weapons.

[Immonen]

This point-buy system is pretty flawed as is. If you look at it, a simple, one-handed piercing weapon dealing 1d10 per hit is considered balanced with everything. This probably isn't the best way to check if the weapons are balanced.

[SowZ]

I'm pretty sure there is a system already for this. All weapons start out as a
1d3 lethal 20x2 weapon. It costs one point to up crit range, one to up the crit multiplier, and one to up the damage die a category. It costs one to give it a special ability, (trip, disarm, etc.)

Simple weapons have 1 point, Martials have 2 points, Exotics have 3 points and Light weapons have an additional 1 point, One-H weapons 2, and Two-H Weapons have 3.

Where is that? Which book? ARGGHRHEHFHKGJHA!