Otyugh Hole: a lot more dangerous than it seems?

[SoHardToRegiste]

Any adventurer that survives 7 days inside the cesspit that is the Otyugh Hole receives one feat (Iron Will, etc) as his reward.

Since the Otyugh Hole was dug as a prison to punish inmates with solitary confinement, I can't see how the authorities would allow adventurers to enter that place in full combat armor or with staff and wand at the ready.

Do they strip your equipment before sending you down there?

Even if one can bribe the guards to allow them to keep the equipment, the fact that a character must survive inside the Otyugh Hole alone, without his usual allies, makes the challenge a lot more daunting.

It is said that a character can enter an Otyugh Hole as early as level 3. Well, one Otyugh by itself already has a challenge rating of 4. And it can travel by itself, in a pair, or in a group of 3-4.

I don't see how a level 3 Wizard by himself can beat 2 Otyugh, much less 3-4 of them at the same time.

And that's just the first encounter. There might be more lurking around the corner.

How do you imagine the Otyugh Hole size wise? It is said to be around 30 feet deep, but what about width and length? And how many rooms? Is it as big as an underground dungeon with many rooms? How many Otyugh in total could an adventurer expect to find in there?

One cheesy method I thought up to survive in the hole without a battle:

-Find a room that's 20 feet by 20 feet with a ceiling of 20+ feet
-Cast http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Secure_shelter

Wait out the 7 days in safety. But that would be too easy :D

[The Glyphstone]

Why do you assume there would automatically be an otyugh in the pit? The Knowledge DC's only say that 'some jailers knowingly allow monsters such as ghouls, slimes, or otyughs access to the pit' - the only defaults are that it's a horrible, awful, disgusting place.

[faceroll]

You're not fighting otyughs- you're just confined to a dank, crowded, filthy prison.

I think WotC was going for a black hole of calcutta thing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole_of_calcutta

[edit]
Hmm, it's a solitary pit. That doesn't make much sense, seeing how every adventurer in the world visits the Otyugh Spa Hole for its rejuvenating effects on body and mind.

"The site gains its power from its exclusivity: Should a large number come to know the pit’s details and claim (truly or not) to have weathered its foulness, the exceptional accomplishment of enduring the otyugh hole is cheapened and the site’s benefits fade."

lolz

[awa]

the text dosent say any thing about roaming packs of monsters just occasional scavengers.
It also indicates their might not be any monsters in the pit it depends and even if their are it talks about the monster attentiveness indicating they can be hidden from rather then fought.

[The Glyphstone]

You're not fighting otyughs- you're just confined to a dank, crowded, filthy prison.

I think WotC was going for a black hole of calcutta thing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole_of_calcutta

Crowded? The whole point of the Hole is that you spend a week in it alone, it's solitary confinement while standing knee-deep in filth.

[faceroll]

Crowded? The whole point of the Hole is that you spend a week in it alone, it's solitary confinement while standing knee-deep in filth.

Yeah, I just noticed that. Got error 500d while editing.

[tyckspoon]

Most jails have something of an interest in not killing their prisoners (they may not care if other prisoners do it, but they typically do not take actions that directly lead to a prisoner's death... if they do intend to just kill a troublesome prisoner, they will probably just execute him on grounds of being too much trouble to keep in a cell.) So even with the jailers that do let assorted monsters access their Otyugh Hole, they likely keep an eye on it to make sure the prisoner doesn't actually die- the idea is to break the prisoner so he'll do anything to avoid being thrown back in there, not to kill him.

I'm a little surprised they didn't write in like an escalating series of will saves to avoid getting broken by the Hole, tho; as is, you just go 'yeah, my character is a bonafide hardass, and now I have Iron Will and the respect of every criminal everywhere'.

[Coidzor]

Frankly, I don't really give a damn. It's a pre-requisite feat that's not worth a feat slot but can be acquired in this manner.

Of course it's going to be popular amongst anyone with either a weak will-save or a need for the feat.

Why is this such a bad thing that you feel the need to devote more attention than needs to be paid to it in order to specifically try to stymie anyone who actually would use it?

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Most jails have something of an interest in not killing their prisoners (they may not care if other prisoners do it, but they typically do not take actions that directly lead to a prisoner's death... if they do intend to just kill a troublesome prisoner, they will probably just execute him on grounds of being too much trouble to keep in a cell.) So even with the jailers that do let assorted monsters access their Otyugh Hole, they likely keep an eye on it to make sure the prisoner doesn't actually die- the idea is to break the prisoner so he'll do anything to avoid being thrown back in there, not to kill him.

I'm a little surprised they didn't write in like an escalating series of will saves to avoid getting broken by the Hole, tho; as is, you just go 'yeah, my character is a bonafide hardass, and now I have Iron Will and the respect of every criminal everywhere'.This post touches on the fact that the whole idea of something like an Otyugh Hole improving one's mental toughness is just an artifact of Survivor Bias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias). If every single gulag-survivor you encounter is a badass, it doesn't mean the gulags turn everyone into badasses. It means the only people who survived were badasses in the first place.

In the same vein, some battle-scarred warrior who jumps in an Otyugh Hole for a week isn't going to be mentally tougher for it. He's just going to stink a lot and wonder why he did that for a week. The people who aren't "broken" by the Otyugh Hole tend to have high will saves, since that helps them survive the Otyugh Hole without being broken.

... Of course, I guess a wizard could have done it.

[awa]

it is possible for an experiance to make you stronger for having overcome it.

[Taelas]

This post touches on the fact that the whole idea of something like an Otyugh Hole improving one's mental toughness is just an artifact of Survivor Bias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias). If every single gulag-survivor you encounter is a badass, it doesn't mean the gulags turn everyone into badasses. It means the only people who survived were badasses in the first place.

In the same vein, some battle-scarred warrior who jumps in an Otyugh Hole for a week isn't going to be mentally tougher for it. He's just going to stink a lot and wonder why he did that for a week. The people who aren't "broken" by the Otyugh Hole tend to have high will saves, since that helps them survive the Otyugh Hole without being broken.

... Of course, I guess a wizard could have done it.

You are using survivor bias incorrectly. Instead of everyone becoming a badass by surviving the gulag, which ignores the possibility of them being badass already, you insist that they were badasses already -- but that ignores the possibility of them becoming badasses through the experience of surviving. You're just as biased.

There are at least four possible outcomes that I can see:
1: You are not a badass going in, and you succumb to the experience.
2: You are a badass going in, and you do not succumb.
3: You are not a badass going in, but the experience changes you into becoming a badass and you do not succumb.
4: You are a badass going in, but the experience changes you into no longer being a badass, and you succumb.

[Fouredged Sword]

You enter the hole and roll a d4
On a one you gain the feat Iron will, or loose it it you already have it
On a two you gain the Craven feat, or loose it if you already have it
On a three nothing happens
On a four you suffer the effect of insanity - no save, duration perminant untill effected by a dispell curse spell or more powerful cureative effect.

You may only be effected from the hole once per level. The effects are permenant.

Now see if everyone goes there!

[JaronK]

Eh, 750gp gives you a vial of Storm Tears, which cure all insanity. No worries, and free Craven!

JaronK

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

You are using survivor bias incorrectly. Instead of everyone becoming a badass by surviving the gulag, which ignores the possibility of them being badass already, you insist that they were badasses already -- but that ignores the possibility of them becoming badasses through the experience of surviving. You're just as biased.

There are at least four possible outcomes that I can see:
1: You are not a badass going in, and you succumb to the experience.
2: You are a badass going in, and you do not succumb.
3: You are not a badass going in, but the experience changes you into becoming a badass and you do not succumb.
4: You are a badass going in, but the experience changes you into no longer being a badass, and you succumb.The whole point of using the gulags as an example was to make it obvious that those who survived had to be incredibly tough to begin with, but for your sake I could use a simpler example. You take a bunch of lab rats, split up the control and treatment group, and put a somewhat mild poison in the treatment group's food. The ones in the treatment group who survive are weaker than they were before (Mithridates VI aside), but the survivors are stronger, on average, than those left in the control group.

In the same vein, you have a group of people who jump into a fetid, dank hole. Some of them are broken, and some of them come out minds intact. The ones who come out appear stronger mentally than the population of people who didn't go into the hole. WotC says that the experience made them stronger. I believe the causality goes the other way (and that, in general, minds are strengthened by gradual habituation), and provided reasons why it might appear that the causality goes in the way WotC writers assumed. I see a belief there, but I see no cognitive bias. Unless you want to call opinions biases.

[Taelas]

The WotC writers are not assuming what is going on -- they are telling us what is going on. Since you gain the bonus feat, clearly that means you gained something from the experience, and not that you were merely strong enough to survive it.

If you were correct, the Iron Will feat would be a prerequisite, not a benefit.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

The WotC writers are not assuming what is going on -- they are telling us what is going on. Since you gain the bonus feat, clearly that means you gained something from the experience, and not that you were merely strong enough to survive it.

If you were correct, the Iron Will feat would be a prerequisite, not a benefit.If I am correct, WotC wrote some mechanics about a special location based on a misperception of the effects of grotesque trauma; that's all. If Iron Will was a prerequisite, then my complaint wouldn't exist to be correct or incorrect.

[Elric VIII]

If you were correct, the Iron Will feat would be a prerequisite, not a benefit.

Taking a junk feat for the oppourtunity to stand in a dank pit for a week seems in line with WotC's thinking.

Although, I have to agree that there really should be some sort of mechanic in place that creates the possibility of failure to endure and gain the feat. Something like Will saves vs. begging to be taken out of the hole. That way you don't spend the entire week in there, but do not receive any harsh penalties other than being barred from acquiring the feat via pit for some time.

[Acanous]

oddly enough, nobody I play with has, to my knowledge, ever used the Otyugh hole.

I haven't, either. I swallowed my bitter pill and took Iron Will at 9 to qualify for Legendary Leader at 10...

The consensus seems to be that special locations must be actively visited in game, and roleplayed for the benefit. no "I went to the Otyugh hole" in a backstory, no checking it out during downtime. If you want to go to the hole, you go there for a week while the rest of the party is adventuring.

7 days at 3 encounters a day puts you almost 2 levels behind the party.

[Greenish]

no "I went to the Otyugh hole" in a backstoryFunny, I've always felt magical locations were best placed in backstory (when starting above level 1, of course).

[Taelas]

If I am correct, WotC wrote some mechanics about a special location based on a misperception of the effects of grotesque trauma; that's all. If Iron Will was a prerequisite, then my complaint wouldn't exist to be correct or incorrect.

Unless you are an expert on the effects of trauma, perhaps you should give them the benefits of the doubt. It is entirely possible to become immune to something due to repeated exposure -- a vaccine, if you will. It is not impossible, I do not even see it as implausible, and I do not understand why you are arguing against it.

[Crow]

In the same vein, you have a group of people who jump into a fetid, dank hole. Some of them are broken, and some of them come out minds intact. The ones who come out appear stronger mentally than the population of people who didn't go into the hole. WotC says that the experience made them stronger. I believe the causality goes the other way (and that, in general, minds are strengthened by gradual habituation), and provided reasons why it might appear that the causality goes in the way WotC writers assumed. I see a belief there, but I see no cognitive bias. Unless you want to call opinions biases.

If you read about some of the early expeditions into the Amazon, they would seem to support this. Very few went in on these doomed expeditions and came out the stronger for it. More often, it was the other way around, with survivors from doomed expeditions being haunted by the episodes for years to come. The ones that had been previously hardened, through war, rearing, or previously living on the brink for months or years on end, were the ones who most often made it out after a doomed expedition (mostly) intact.

[Acanous]

He's arguing against it because to hold something to be true, you must first test it properly.
So many historical bungles have occurred because people never thought to test what popular opinion deemed truth that I don't even know what sources to start with. The world being flat, eugenics, regular folks in certain countries doing deplorable things today because they believe it will cure HIV...

[faceroll]

If I am correct, WotC wrote some mechanics about a special location based on a misperception of the effects of grotesque trauma; that's all. If Iron Will was a prerequisite, then my complaint wouldn't exist to be correct or incorrect.

So are you saying individuals can't adapt or get stronger?

[Starbuck_II]

He's arguing against it because to hold something to be true, you must first test it properly.
So many historical bungles have occurred because people never thought to test what popular opinion deemed truth that I don't even know what sources to start with. The world being flat, eugenics, regular folks in certain countries doing deplorable things today because they believe it will cure HIV...

Wait, but few people did think World Was Flat...
Why does the myth keep being repeated?

In fact, research shows very few thought so (but artist still did work as of it was flat because it was easier to represent).

[Acanous]

mostly because there's still crazies out there who think the moon landing was faked and the earth is flat. They have websites. Origionally I thought it was a troll thing, but >.<

[Cruiser1]

Funny, I've always felt magical locations were best placed in backstory (when starting above level 1, of course).Special locations like the Otyugh Hole have a gold piece value. That implies they're indended to be part of character wealth. If you want to have being in the Otyugh Hole as part of your backstory, you need to reduce your WBL by the 3000 gp listed for it.

Of course, DM's may consider 3000 gp for a feat to be overpowered, especially since the main benefit of the Otyugh Hole isn't Iron Will itself, but rather the extra feat slot. For example, use the Dark Chaos shuffle to convert Iron Will into whatever feat you qualify for that you really want.

The Frog God's Fane special location can also be used for this (and it only costs 2000 gp). Other special locations that give feats (like climbing the Highest Spire without magic) have requirements that most characters can't easily meet.

[The Glyphstone]

Special locations like the Otyugh Hole have a gold piece value. That implies they're indended to be part of character wealth. If you want to have being in the Otyugh Hole as part of your backstory, you need to reduce your WBL by the 3000 gp listed for it.

Of course, DM's may consider 3000 gp for a feat to be overpowered, especially since the main benefit of the Otyugh Hole isn't Iron Will itself, but rather the extra feat slot. For example, use the Dark Chaos shuffle to convert Iron Will into whatever feat you qualify for that you really want.

The Frog God's Fane special location can also be used for this (and it only costs 2000 gp). Other special locations that give feats (like climbing the Highest Spire without magic) have requirements that most characters can't easily meet.

Wouldn't that be because Dark Chaos Shuffle is overpowered? Eliminating it solves a lot of such problems with magical locations and similar effects.

[Greenish]

Special locations like the Otyugh Hole have a gold piece value. That implies they're indended to be part of character wealth. If you want to have being in the Otyugh Hole as part of your backstory, you need to reduce your WBL by the 3000 gp listed for it.Yes, that's why I specified that you'd be higher than 1st level character to have it in your backstory, since otherwise you couldn't afford it. :smallconfused:

[Douglas]

He's arguing against it because to hold something to be true, you must first test it properly.
So many historical bungles have occurred because people never thought to test what popular opinion deemed truth that I don't even know what sources to start with. The world being flat, eugenics, regular folks in certain countries doing deplorable things today because they believe it will cure HIV...
Hey, eugenics does work - it's been practiced quite successfully on a large variety of plants and animals for thousands of years, and is the primary reason the crops and livestock farmers raise now are as productive as they are. People just don't like the idea of accepting the costs that would be necessary to apply it to human populations, and also would have difficulty agreeing on the criteria to be used; those that would be forbidden to reproduce have particularly strong objections.

Anyway, I think the Otyugh Hole's benefit does make sense, but I agree that realistically it really should be unreliable and have a significant risk of negative effects for people who fail.

[Coidzor]

Taking a junk feat for the oppourtunity to stand in a dank pit for a week seems in line with WotC's thinking.

Although, I have to agree that there really should be some sort of mechanic in place that creates the possibility of failure to endure and gain the feat. Something like Will saves vs. begging to be taken out of the hole. That way you don't spend the entire week in there, but do not receive any harsh penalties other than being barred from acquiring the feat via pit for some time.

So you call it a junk feat and yet place so dear a price on it?

[Crow]

It's a junk feat that is a prereq for quite a few PrC's.

[Coidzor]

It's a junk feat that is a prereq for quite a few PrC's.

That would be a problem with the PrCs, not something that would actually increase the value of a junk feat. And the idea of balancing PrCs by requiring junk feats is the most illegitimate line of design reasoning of the lot, so...

If you're going to be houseruling, why not take a crack at the real issue rather than adding tedium to the Otyugh Hole? :smalltongue:

[Elric VIII]

That would be a problem with the PrCs, not something that would actually increase the value of a junk feat. And the idea of balancing PrCs by requiring junk feats is the most illegitimate line of design reasoning of the lot, so...

If you're going to be houseruling, why not take a crack at the real issue rather than adding tedium to the Otyugh Hole? :smalltongue:

It's less about the feat and more about changing the PrC prerequisite to a test of mental fortitude (i.e. - staying in the Otyugh Hole) rather than needing a simple feat. So changing the Otyugh Hole to fit your needs does address the issue of PrCs.

While this line of thinking does make some PrC prerequisites rather similar, it can make them more interesting to enter and they will represent a more personal commitment on par tof the character.

[Vangor]

The whole point of using the gulags as an example was to make it obvious that those who survived had to be incredibly tough to begin with

A character attains third level and chooses iron will for a feat, effectively gaining five levels of good will saves in an instant. No harrowing experiences, confidence building, etc., necessary, and often those who choose the feat are those with poor will saves to begin with. How did the person suddenly gain such will? Mechanics.

The hole might be a magical place which bestows such mental fortitude, the experience itself could toughen a person, the experience could cause realization of such willpower, or having survived could reveal such abilities to others thereby decreasing the influence others can have on them. Whatever the rationale one wants to give, any of those is possible based on how one wants to interpret the fluff.

[The Glyphstone]

A character attains third level and chooses iron will for a feat, effectively gaining five levels of good will saves in an instant. No harrowing experiences, confidence building, etc., necessary, and often those who choose the feat are those with poor will saves to begin with. How did the person suddenly gain such will? Mechanics.

The hole might be a magical place which bestows such mental fortitude, the experience itself could toughen a person, the experience could cause realization of such willpower, or having survived could reveal such abilities to others thereby decreasing the influence others can have on them. Whatever the rationale one wants to give, any of those is possible based on how one wants to interpret the fluff.

The rules seem to imply there is something magical about it, or at least supernatural, because the Hole loses its effect if its location becomes famous or well-known, and a large number of people either use it or simply claim to use it.