Touch Spells

[UnholyPenance]

So, i just got the idea to make a Mystic Theurge (going wizard/cleric route) who specialized in touch spells. So, what would you say are the best and your favorite touch spells?

[Greenish]

Mordenkainen's Wholly Inappropriate Touch. :smallwink:

More seriously, Vampiric Touch is solid. Shivering Touch is poorly written but undeniably strong, though using it is in poor taste.

[Crow]

I like Chill Touch, for putting undead on the ropes.

[Elboxo]

Don't forget you can use spectral hand to deliver touch spells at medium range for as long as the spell lasts (min/level) it's a level 2 wizard necromancy spell

[Optimator]

Mummify (non-[Death] death touch), Otto's Irresistible Dance, Bestow Curse, Touch of Idiocy, Plane Shift.

[DeAnno]

Combust is probably the best touch damage metamagic seed. Can't complain about 10d8 for a second level spell.

[UnholyPenance]

Those all sound really nice. Combust sounds really awesome. Now, if i was to continue this character, what would be good feats for a Touch Spell specialist? Since im multiclasing, Practiced Spellcaster is kind of a must, but what could really help touch spells?

[RaggedAngel]

Those all sound really nice. Combust sounds really awesome. Now, if i was to continue this character, what would be good feats for a Touch Spell specialist? Since im multiclasing, Practiced Spellcaster is kind of a must, but what could really help touch spells?

You may want to pick up Weapon Finesse, since as a Wizard your Dex should be high anyway. Touch spells are already pretty sure things, but if you're playing, for example, a Strongheart Halfling with a high Dex you can totally ignore Str and still hit on anything but a 1. If you don't go with Weapon Finesse you have to have a little Str, or at least enough to not have a penalty.

[UnholyPenance]

Actually Weapon Finesse would be pretty good. Well, what do you think of the concept of a touch specialist, let alone a Mystic Theurge (going the cleric/wizard route)?

[Elboxo]

Errkk Mystic Theurge, any particular reason you are going into that?
If you just want to specialize in touch spells why not sorcerer or something?

[RagnaroksChosen]

You may want to pick up Weapon Finesse, since as a Wizard your Dex should be high anyway. Touch spells are already pretty sure things, but if you're playing, for example, a Strongheart Halfling with a high Dex you can totally ignore Str and still hit on anything but a 1. If you don't go with Weapon Finesse you have to have a little Str, or at least enough to not have a penalty.

Now I am sure it is but I couldn't find any where that said touch attacks are finesseable? could you point me to where it says that?

[Serpentine]

Actually Weapon Finesse would be pretty good. Well, what do you think of the concept of a touch specialist, let alone a Mystic Theurge (going the cleric/wizard route)?What is your goal? Do you want to know how to be amazingly powerful? Is your emphasis on the touch specialist, or the Mystic Theurge? e.g. Are you asking whether Mystic Theurge is the best way to be a touch specialist? Do you just think it's a neat idea overall, and want to know what else you could use to get the gist?

[Fouredged Sword]

I would like to suggest that if you are going to make a mystic thurge you use early entry to get into mystic thurge.

Also druids tend to work better due to the fact you can start off with arcane herophant and then go mystic thurge to get all 16 levels past 4th to be duel progression.

[UnholyPenance]

What is your goal? Do you want to know how to be amazingly powerful? Is your emphasis on the touch specialist, or the Mystic Theurge? e.g. Are you asking whether Mystic Theurge is the best way to be a touch specialist? Do you just think it's a neat idea overall, and want to know what else you could use to get the gist?

More that the Mystic Theurge seems like it would be a neat idea overall and that it could encompass both arcane and divine touch spells. Being amazingly powerful would be nice since it seems my character's get overlooked whilst i play d&d

[Thespianus]

Now I am sure it is but I couldn't find any where that said touch attacks are finesseable? could you point me to where it says that?

Complete Arcane, page 73. There's a run-through of various "weapon" feats and they mention how they work with spells: for example: IUS, Stunning Fist, PBS and Weapon Finesse, which replaces Str for Dex, just as expected.

While it is kinda silly, you can get Improved Critical (touch spells) too. Dealing critical damage with a touch spell is fun , eventhough it's a pretty bad Feat-pick.

[Serpentine]

More that the Mystic Theurge seems like it would be a neat idea overall and that it could encompass both arcane and divine touch spells. Being amazingly powerful would be nice since it seems my character's get overlooked whilst i play d&dI would expect that careful spell- and feat-selection would counteract the disadvantages of Mystic Theurge. However, your concept already severely limits your spell selection, and I'm terrible at anything resembling optimisation so don't listen to me on anything relating to power.
Which sucks, cuz I really like this concept...

[UnholyPenance]

I would expect that careful spell- and feat-selection would counteract the disadvantages of Mystic Theurge. However, your concept already severely limits your spell selection, and I'm terrible at anything resembling optimisation so don't listen to me on anything relating to power.
Which sucks, cuz I really like this concept...

Aside from multiclassing, what are the disadvantages of the Mystic Theurge? and don't worry, i'm not much more optimization myself.

[Serpentine]

Honestly? No idea. I have a Mystic Theurge in my game and she does fine most of the time. But then, we're all pretty low power.

[UnholyPenance]

Honestly? No idea. I have a Mystic Theurge in my game and she does fine most of the time. But then, we're all pretty low power.

i guess i can see where the Mystic Theurge has it's drawbacks, especially a touch specialist: low hit die and can't really wear armor. So, if i ran up to the front line to touch people, i'd get smacked in the face faster than the DM could ask, "What's your AC?"

[Serpentine]

Remember that feat and spell people suggested to let you do touch spells from a distance. Negotiate with your DM, too, and maybe invest in lots of Invisibility.

[UnholyPenance]

Remember that feat and spell people suggested to let you do touch spells from a distance. Negotiate with your DM, too, and maybe invest in lots of Invisibility.

true, that would make it work. Right now, i have an Alienist running around in his campaign and he hates all my summons...especially when i airdropped a pseudonatural huge monsterous centipede 60ft down on his precious encounter. That was a fun night

[Fouredged Sword]

If you really want to focus on touch spells you need to think more about ranged touch attacks rather than touch spells themselves. I belive that there is an archmange ability that turns melee touch spells into ranged touch spells.

The other option is to ether go stealth or go tough. A abjurent champion is rather hard to hit and has good Bab enough to go into melee. An aplication of greater insivability works wonders for stealth, expecialy if you use DMM persist to make it last all day. Stack miss chances on both of them (Greater miror images, darkness effects, even smoaksticks work)

the other option is to use duskblade as one side of the mix. There are lots of good cleric spells that could be chaneled though a sword, and that would let you wear light armor (or medium with a feat) into combat. The focus of duskblade is close combat damage anyway.

If you feel you must go into combat and want to be a straight wizard, there are options. Remember that if the ASF chance is zero you are good. I think that someone figgured out how to get a brestplate down to zero ASF. Any AC helps.

[UnholyPenance]

If you really want to focus on touch spells you need to think more about ranged touch attacks rather than touch spells themselves. I belive that there is an archmange ability that turns melee touch spells into ranged touch spells.

The other option is to ether go stealth or go tough. A abjurent champion is rather hard to hit and has good Bab enough to go into melee. An aplication of greater insivability works wonders for stealth, expecialy if you use DMM persist to make it last all day. Stack miss chances on both of them (Greater miror images, darkness effects, even smoaksticks work)

the other option is to use duskblade as one side of the mix. There are lots of good cleric spells that could be chaneled though a sword, and that would let you wear light armor (or medium with a feat) into combat. The focus of duskblade is close combat damage anyway.

If you feel you must go into combat and want to be a straight wizard, there are options. Remember that if the ASF chance is zero you are good. I think that someone figgured out how to get a brestplate down to zero ASF. Any AC helps.

I know Twilight armor drops ASF down 10%. Though i don't recall, what book's Abjurent Champion in?

[Thespianus]

I know Twilight armor drops ASF down 10%. Though i don't recall, what book's Abjurent Champion in?

Complete Mage.

[Thespianus]

So, i just got the idea to make a Mystic Theurge (going wizard/cleric route) who specialized in touch spells. So, what would you say are the best and your favorite touch spells?

One thing you could look into - if your DM allows you to go outside of WOTC material - is Monte Cook's The Complete Book of Eldritch Might for 3.5.

It contains the Feat Battle Touch, which allows you to make as many Touch Attacks with your spell as you have attacks in the round during a Full Attack.

It would give your character additional Oompf against one single target, at least.

[Keld Denar]

Since you asked, the main detraction from Mystic Theurge is that at each character level past about 4, you are 1-2 whole SPELL levels behind a straight leveled caster. That means not only lower DCs, but lower overall general spell effects, since each spell level is roughly 1.5-2x stronger than the level before it. A bad touch from a 6th level spell is going to have a generally bigger effect than a bad touch from a 5th level spell, which is bigger than a 4th level spell, etc. Higher level spells means better rider effects (stun, slow, incapacitate, death, etc) and better damage scaling/caps.

There are some early entry techniques that make it better, which is often nice, but often frowned upon.

[Vandicus]

Invisible spell and reach spell for +2 to slot will allow you to ninja touch people. I find that MT functions just fine when either using early entry or is in a party without arcane OR divine casters who have full spellcasting. I really would recommend early entry though.

[Fax Celestis]

I like temporal stasis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/temporalStasis.htm), myself.

[subject42]

If you don't mind looking horrifying, you ought to look at the willing deformity feats that extend your reach. You can get 10 ~ 20 feet of reach if you do it right.

[UnholyPenance]

Since you asked, the main detraction from Mystic Theurge is that at each character level past about 4, you are 1-2 whole SPELL levels behind a straight leveled caster. That means not only lower DCs, but lower overall general spell effects, since each spell level is roughly 1.5-2x stronger than the level before it. A bad touch from a 6th level spell is going to have a generally bigger effect than a bad touch from a 5th level spell, which is bigger than a 4th level spell, etc. Higher level spells means better rider effects (stun, slow, incapacitate, death, etc) and better damage scaling/caps.

There are some early entry techniques that make it better, which is often nice, but often frowned upon.

What are these early entry techniques, just out of curiosity?

[Keld Denar]

Sanctum Spell is the simplest. Take any one metamagic feat, then take Sanctum Spell. That allows you to cast a 1st level spell, which, in your Sanctum is a 2nd level spell for ALL intents and purposes. Thus, since you have the potential to cast 2nd level spells, you qualify. Works with your choice of Clr3/Wiz1, Wiz3/Clr1, or Wiz2/Clr2. Also interacts in a fun way with Spellstoring weapons and a few other mechanics. Neat little metamagic, if you really think about it.

Precotious Apprentice is the most commonly cited one, but doesn't work in this case, as it only gives 2nd level spells for one side, and so you'd have to qualify as a Wizard1/Cleric3, and techinically since you can cast 2nd level Cleric spells, that shuts off PA.

If you went Illumian, you could also use Improved Sigil(Krau), which does much the same thing as Sanctum Spell, but is ultimately less useful. Earth Spell + Heighten Spell works, but requires 3 feats due to prereqs. Also, if one side was sponanteous, there's Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten Spell, but thats not so viable for a Wiz/Clr.

[UnholyPenance]

Sanctum Spell is the simplest. Take any one metamagic feat, then take Sanctum Spell. That allows you to cast a 1st level spell, which, in your Sanctum is a 2nd level spell for ALL intents and purposes. Thus, since you have the potential to cast 2nd level spells, you qualify. Works with your choice of Clr3/Wiz1, Wiz3/Clr1, or Wiz2/Clr2. Also interacts in a fun way with Spellstoring weapons and a few other mechanics. Neat little metamagic, if you really think about it.

Precotious Apprentice is the most commonly cited one, but doesn't work in this case, as it only gives 2nd level spells for one side, and so you'd have to qualify as a Wizard1/Cleric3, and techinically since you can cast 2nd level Cleric spells, that shuts off PA.

If you went Illumian, you could also use Improved Sigil(Krau), which does much the same thing as Sanctum Spell, but is ultimately less useful. Earth Spell + Heighten Spell works, but requires 3 feats due to prereqs. Also, if one side was sponanteous, there's Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten Spell, but thats not so viable for a Wiz/Clr.

Since, for Sanctuary Spell, i'd have to designate a specific place and this campaign is a "from place to place" campaign, how would that work?

[Keld Denar]

Well, it actually doesn't matter. You aren't actually casting spells in your Sanctuary. You just need to be ABLE to cast spells in your sanctuary to be ABLE to cast 2nd level spells. Sanctum Spell fulfills this. And actually, most of the time, you'll want to cast Sanctum Spells OUTSIDE of your sanctum. The most fun thing you can do with Sanctum Spell, outside of early entry shananananananananananananananananananigans is to use it to trick Spellstoring items. Your friendly fighter has a Spellstoring Greatsword? Stick a Sanctum Enervation in there. Outside of your sanctum, its only a 3rd level spell, even though you cast it from a 4th level slot. since Spellstoring has a 3rd level cap, Sanctum Enervation is just short enough to ride that ride. There is also a Spellstoring IWIN Stone, which you can use to pass off useful 4th level spells to allies. Heart of Stone is an awesome buff for a tank, but most tanks can't cast it, and its Personal only. So...stick a Sanctum Heart of Earth into your 3rd level capped Spellstoring IWIN Stone, throw it at your buddy, and have him activate the spell out of it. BAM!

Be creative and imaginative, and you can have some fun with Sanctum Spell. The trick is to think OUTSIDE of the sanctum! /rimshot