Wizard AC help?

[Elboxo]

For an upcoming one-off game i will be playing a wizard, 8th level and want to have as high AC as i can get for as long as i can get, we are using Player's Handbook and SOME core books like MM1 and possibly the spell compendium ( My friend is trying out being DM for a day and i want to keep it mostly in the PH/PH2 if possible )

I will be taking the Brew potion and Craft Wondrous Item feats to be able to create boosts for myself and for my team at low cost, i have figured i can get my AC to 29 for about 16 minutes and 23 for 2 +1/2 hours, after that it will be 17 for the rest of the day, this is via:
Alternate Form - Into a Troglodyte for +6 natural armour
Potion of Mage Armour - + 4 AC
Shield spell - +4 AC
Cat's grace - + 2 AC
+2 Bracers - +2 Deflection bonus
Base Dexterity of 12 ( Troglodyte makes me medium sized so i don't have a size bonus )
Im not willing to use Polymorph for short-term AC unless i really have to, i'm trying to keep the enhancements lasting a long time, that's why i have potions; so i can keep taking them if i have to

1) Would a +4 Dex item stack with Cat's Grace?
2) Does anyone have any other ideas of low spell/gold cost AC improvement? perhaps a flaw for a feat?
3) I read of a feat or class feature that changed +4 armour bonuses granted by spells to a +6 but i can't find it anywhere.... Anyone know?

[Greenish]

1) No, both are enhancement bonuses.
2) Don't focus on AC: miss changes are better. Mirror Image is your friend.
3) Abjurant Champion (C.Mage) PrC boosts AC from Abjuration spells. It's more of a gish PrC, though.

[Edit]: I think in 3, the PrC in question is the Paragnostic Apostle from C.Champion.

[IonDragon]

1) Would a +4 Dex item stack with Cat's Grace?
2) Does anyone have any other ideas of low spell/gold cost AC improvement? perhaps a flaw for a feat?
3) I read of a feat or class feature that changed +4 armour bonuses granted by spells to a +6 but i can't find it anywhere.... Anyone know?

1) No, they're both Enhancement
2) Combat Expertise
3) Greater Mage Armor is a higher level spell

4) Miss chance > AC so run Mirror Image or Greater Mirror Image
5) Bracers of Armor provide an Armor bonus, not a Deflection bonus. It does not stack with worn armor or with the Mage Armor spell.

[Groverfield]

Greater Mage Armor is +6 as a 3rd level spell... most likely you can get better bracers or a +5 twilight mithril chain shirt. If you have a good WIS score then go with the bracers of armor or GMA and get a monk's belt
Also bracers give "armor" typed to AC, it's the rings of protection that give you deflection, unless you're making custom magic items.

[Edit]: Also Argent Savant improves the force AC as well

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

First of all, get a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend, they're cheap. Then cast Mage Armor with that and it lasts 16 hours, forget potions of mage armor they're a waste of money. That also makes Alter Self: Troglodyte last 2 hrs 40 min, which should last long enough to get a day's worth of adventuring in. Save the last charge of the rod for casting Rope Trick so your party can hide and rest until the next morning when they've run out of spells.

Forget about casting Shield, get a +1 Mithral Buckler for 2,165 gp, it gives +2 AC for no drawbacks. Bracers of Armor grant an Armor bonus to AC which doesn't stack with Mage Armor, you're thinking of a Ring of Protection which costs twice as much. An Amulet of Natural Armor grants an Enhancement bonus to whatever your current natural armor bonus is, so it would add a bonus to your Troglodyte natural armor bonus but I wouldn't even bother getting one of those, either.

Get a Headband of Intellect +4, a Cloak of Resistance +2, a Lesser Rod of Extend, and a +1 Mithral Buckler, and you'll still have 1,835 gp left for maybe a partially charged Wand of Web, spell components, extra spells in your spellbook, and other miscellaneous gear. Maybe make the Cloak of Resistance only +1 and get a Ring of Protection +1, and be able to start with eleven more charges on your wand.

Don't dress like a wizard, wear a Monk's Outfit or an Explorer's Outfit, and even wear a weapon you can't use (well) such as a rapier to make opponents reconsider what your character may be capable of. The wand can be secured to your belt with a cord, you can grab it as a move action, activate it as a standard action, then drop it as a free action and it would return to its place hanging from your belt. Start a fight with a crowd control or save-or-lose spell such as Web, Glitterdust, Stinking Cloud, or Black Tentacles. If you can cast a spell and then move behind total cover, then do so and opponents won't even be able to hit you. If you can't hit almost every opponent with a crowd control and can't get behind cover after casting it, maybe cast Mirror Image first instead. Basically you want to prevent opponents from attacking at all, rather than just focusing on your character's personal defenses.

Edit: Note that all of those spells I mentioned, the best kind of spells you can use, are all Conjurations. Specialize in Conjuration and pick from Evocation, Enchantment, Necromancy, or Abjuration for prohibited schools, and you'll be able to throw around even more of the best kind of spells each day.

[Elboxo]

Thanks for all your help guys, yeah i got confused with rings of protection, i'm trying to use spells of a lower level to increase AC, and thanks for item help Biffoniacus, he's a first time DM and i don't think npc reacting to how characters are dressed will change too much ( it's a single dungeon probably filled with undead and monsters of various sorts )
I was thinking of focusing in transmutation for buffing, but CC was my original choice, which was probably better, i just wanted to have some fun with suprising him by being a wizard with a tonne of AC, original idea was to be an illusionist with a DC of 27 on my 3rd level spells, he said specifically he'd send mindless creatures after me ( which our necropolitan cleric would take care of ) and i'd use illusions on the rest.
Nothing to stop me going with long term buffs and mirror image, thanks all!
Also i swear i saw that feat! WHAT WAS IT>>>>?

[Greenish]

Also i swear i saw that feat! WHAT WAS IT>>>>?Mind over Matter: when you cast a spell that provides a bonus to AC, that bonus increases by 2. It's not a feat though, but a class feature.

Also, mindless creatures aren't immune to illusions, quite the opposite.

[ericgrau]

It is an uphill battle for the armorless wizard ya. What's worse is that short duration buffs like shield or cat's grace eat combat rounds that could be better spent contributing offensively. Even mirror image does, though it's more worthwhile for a wizard who has trouble boosting AC too high. You can still prepare 1 or 2 short duration buffs in case you get a buffing round before the fight, but I wouldn't count on it.

It is still worth it to get a little AC, especially touch AC. +1s are especially cheap. A ring of protection will give you a deflection bonus. Rather than getting a +2 ring right away you can get a dusty rose prism ioun stone and a +1 ring and save 1,000 gp. Alter self + mage armor can help, ya. A rod of lesser extend spell can keep these buffs lasting longer for only 3,000 gp, but ya mage armor potions as backups are dirt cheap too. If you have an extra hand a mithril buckler can give you +1 shield AC for only 1,115 gp. Another 1,000 gp for a +1 shield makes that 2 AC. You don't need proficiency since it has no armor check penalty.

[pinballchico]

If you can afford it...I think its roughly around 4000 gold...Twilight mithrall...+4 AC, no spell failure chance, doesn't stack with mage armor...but you don't have to waste a standard action or a spell slot.

[SowZ]

For an upcoming one-off game i will be playing a wizard, 8th level and want to have as high AC as i can get for as long as i can get, we are using Player's Handbook and SOME core books like MM1 and possibly the spell compendium ( My friend is trying out being DM for a day and i want to keep it mostly in the PH/PH2 if possible )

I will be taking the Brew potion and Craft Wondrous Item feats to be able to create boosts for myself and for my team at low cost, i have figured i can get my AC to 29 for about 16 minutes and 23 for 2 +1/2 hours, after that it will be 17 for the rest of the day, this is via:
Alternate Form - Into a Troglodyte for +6 natural armour
Potion of Mage Armour - + 4 AC
Shield spell - +4 AC
Cat's grace - + 2 AC
+2 Bracers - +2 Deflection bonus
Base Dexterity of 12 ( Troglodyte makes me medium sized so i don't have a size bonus )
Im not willing to use Polymorph for short-term AC unless i really have to, i'm trying to keep the enhancements lasting a long time, that's why i have potions; so i can keep taking them if i have to

1) Would a +4 Dex item stack with Cat's Grace?
2) Does anyone have any other ideas of low spell/gold cost AC improvement? perhaps a flaw for a feat?
3) I read of a feat or class feature that changed +4 armour bonuses granted by spells to a +6 but i can't find it anywhere.... Anyone know?

There is the Enchanter alternate Wizard variant where you trade your ability to have a school specialization to make all enchantment durations double. Oh, you also get to trade your familiar for a cohort as per Leadership and get a +2 bonus to diplomacy every so many levels.

[KillianHawkeye]

Mind over Matter: when you cast a spell that provides a bonus to AC, that bonus increases by 2. It's not a feat though, but a class feature.

Which class gives that?

[Greenish]

If you can afford it...I think its roughly around 4000 gold...Twilight mithrall...+4 AC, no spell failure chance, doesn't stack with mage armor...but you don't have to waste a standard action or a spell slot.5,100 gp, +5 AC, to be exact.


Which class gives that?Paragnostic Apostle from C.Champ.

[NNescio]

Which class gives that?

Paragnostic Apostle from Complete Champion, Page 94.


1)
[Edit]:... I think in 3, the PrC in question is the Paragnostic Apostle from C.Champion.

[Hoboshank]

if im not mistaken dragonkin from Dragonomicon have +7 nat AC and flying

[ericgrau]

Well twilight mithril is only a net gain of 1 AC over mage armor, and a 1st level spell cast outside of combat isn't really a big deal. So it's a bit early for that, probably good after he gets all his other +1s. Even at his level, while it's not worthless, he shouldn't invest too much into non-touch AC. I'm guessing he's at an equivalent miss chance of 7.5% per +1 AC, maybe 10% if he gets alter self, the buckler and so on. Given these are 1,000-3,000 gp each it's still a better deal than miss chance items, for now anyway.

[NNescio]

if im not mistaken dragonkin from Dragonomicon have +7 nat AC and flying

At LA+2 and having seven RHD, which makes it an extremely bad choice for a spellcasting character. Or any character, really.

The RHD also puts it out of reach of Alter Self, even if you have the Monstrous Humanoid type. And frankly, you have better things to polymorph into.

[Greenish]

if im not mistaken dragonkin from Dragonomicon have +7 nat AC and flyingThey've got 7 HD, Alter Self caps at 5.

[deuxhero]

Avoid potions (Cure Minor Wounds for stablizing in core is the only one worth anything, and that isn't on your spell list anyways). They cost WAY too much, and you are alreddy a full caster, meaning you can just use wands, which are far cheaper and easier to store.

Just using rod of lesser extend+mage armor is a far better choice.

[Eldariel]

Crucian from Miniatures Handbook has +8 Natural Armor if looking to improve upon the +6 from Trogdolyte. Of course, that's a rather obscure source. If looking to go even higher, picking the "Otherworldly" Regional Feat from Player's Guide to Faerun or playing an Outsider gets you the ability to Alter Self into a "Dwarf Ancestor" [Monster Manual 4] which has +18 Natural Armor. That's the highest you can get from the spell.

[JaronK]

Don't forget Greater Luminous Armor from BoED. That's a lot better for AC than Greater Mage Armor.

JaronK

[ZealPaladin]

Also, don't forget Displacement (if you're out of Mirror Images). 50% miss chance always helps you.

I don't see too many wizards concerned with getting a very high AC (though it is wise). Is there any particular reason you're getting AC up? Does your group have a fighter, or some sort of tank/meat shield?

[NNescio]

Crucian from Miniatures Handbook has +8 Natural Armor if looking to improve upon the +6 from Trogdolyte. Of course, that's a rather obscure source. If looking to go even higher, picking the "Otherworldly" Regional Feat from Player's Guide to Faerun or playing an Outsider gets you the ability to Alter Self into a "Dwarf Ancestor" [Monster Manual 4] which has +18 Natural Armor. That's the highest you can get from the spell.

Alternatively (for Humanoids), Tren, which doesn't have a movement penalty. It's from Serpent Kingdoms though, AKA the Book of PUN PUN and His Pet Sarrukh.

(And personally, it really should be a monstrous humanoid instead.)

[Hiro Protagonest]

Using alter self to turn yourself into a Troglodyte nets +6 natural armor.

[Kenneth]

why does you want AC so bad?

that like paying for a hamburger when Filet mignon is free.

Seriously Mirror Image+blue is multitude better than stacking AC, and since your 8th level. displament is EVEN better.

My maths might be wrong here but I think a 50% miss chance (from displacement) is equal to an AC in the mid-upper 30s ( for my hackney attempt i got abouts 37 AC)


I have a 6th level mage i am playing right with mage armor, sheild and Prot: evil up combined with blur and mirror image I am nigh untouchable. was seperated from the party (due to the stubborn sorcerer/ adept) and had to face a troll on my own. the huge miss chance that blur and mirror image combined gave me allowed me to use up the last 3 charges of my 5th level wands of burning hands and hit him with an acid arrow that lasted 2 rounds) out fo the 12-15 attacks he hit me twice the first was a lucky claw crit that almost killed me in the 2nd round the 2nd was the 5th round, luckily for me he died on the 5th round. I probably would not have survived as I had 1 mirrior image left. but you get the point.

miss chance> striaght AC

[Greenish]

My maths might be wrong here but I think a 50% miss chance (from displacement) is equal to an AC in the mid-upper 30s ( for my hackney attempt i got abouts 37 AC)19 AC is 95% chance to not be hit by someone with +0 attack, but 5% chance to not be hit by someone with +17 attack. You can't compare them like that.

[SowZ]

19 AC is 95% chance to not be hit by someone with +0 attack, but 5% chance to not be hit by someone with +17 attack. You can't compare them like that.

It is also a 5% chance not to be hit by someone with a +100 attack which I find a bit odd but whatever.

[ZealPaladin]

19 AC is 95% chance to not be hit by someone with +0 attack, but 5% chance to not be hit by someone with +17 attack. You can't compare them like that.

Sorry, but I'm going to be a Statistics major and this drove me nuts. Technically, rolling a 19 on an attack vs 19 AC is a hit (at least according to the PHB I'm reading). Therefore, someone could hit 19 AC on rolling either a 19 or 20, which means that on a D20, the chances of a hit with +0 are 2/20, or 1/10, or 10%. Which means that 19 AC gives a 90% chance to not get hit.

Your math is right on the +17 attack. With +17, anything from a 2 to a 20 will hit, i.e. only a nat 1 is a miss.

Yay math! :smallsmile:

[SowZ]

Sorry, but I'm going to be a Statistics major and this drove me nuts. Technically, rolling a 19 on an attack vs 19 AC is a hit (at least according to the PHB I'm reading). Therefore, someone could hit 19 AC on rolling either a 19 or 20, which means that on a D20, the chances of a hit with +0 are 2/20, or 1/10, or 10%. Which means that 19 AC gives a 90% chance to not get hit.

Your math is right on the +17 attack. With +17, anything from a 2 to a 20 will hit, i.e. only a nat 1 is a miss.

Yay math! :smallsmile:

But if you attack four times in a turn, with a 5% chance to hit, you have a 20% chance to hit and so attack 20 times and you are sure to get a hit!

I love inentionally screwing with statistics and making it cry. I am not sure why I do this.

[Greenish]

Sorry, but I'm going to be a Statistics major and this drove me nuts. Technically, rolling a 19 on an attack vs 19 AC is a hit (at least according to the PHB I'm reading). Therefore, someone could hit 19 AC on rolling either a 19 or 20, which means that on a D20, the chances of a hit with +0 are 2/20, or 1/10, or 10%. Which means that 19 AC gives a 90% chance to not get hit.Of course, but I've been up all night. I think my thinking process went like this: "hmm, so, there's something that happens when you roll 20, I better discount that roll". Maybe.

[ZealPaladin]

Of course, but I've been up all night. I think my thinking process went like this: "hmm, so, there's something that happens when you roll 20, I better discount that roll". Maybe.

Right. I just posted the correction more out of boredom than anything else. I've made plenty of mistakes myself lol. I can't sleep with D&D on my mind, you know? :smallwink:

[ericgrau]

If you're hit on a 11 or higher and you get +5 AC to be hit on a 16 or higher that's the same as a 50% miss chance. Really the value of 1 AC is anywhere from 5.3% to 50% miss chance, depending on how much you have already. Wizards are on the lower end of that range since they tend to have a low starting point.

The advantage of AC and other long defensive buffs is action economy: You can use your later turns for something else. It's not worth investing much into it as a wizard but 1,000 gold here and there isn't bad for the effective miss chance you get, especially when a cloak of minor displacement is 24,000 gp for a measly 20% and other options consume a precious action. At level 8 in particular I dunno if I'd blow a 3rd level spell on displacement. I'd probably go with the 2nd level mirror image instead if I have time before combat. Or better yet I'd rather tag the fighter with a bull's strength. From there I'd hang in the back and stay as safe as I can via movement and positioning, contributing offensively to the fight as much as possible.

[TwylyghT]

All this probability talk has resurfaced the wounds of my latest game session where I managed to roll off *7* consecutive nat 1's. Now that I think about it, I dont think I have scored a successful critical hit in about a year... Now in one combat I actually managed 3 nat 20's over 6 rounds, which as my luck always goes, were all against a golem so whooptie doo!

And my Powerball ticket? not a single match. Go figure.

*Sigh*

[ZealPaladin]

All this probability talk has resurfaced the wounds of my latest game session where I managed to roll off *7* consecutive nat 1's.

SEVEN nat 1s?? Ouch. That's like...(1/20) to the 7th power probability. Or about a 1 in a 1,280,000,000 chance of happening. Are you sure that D20 isn't weighted?

[TwylyghT]

I'd check, but I broke out the old wrist rocket sling shot and sent it out to pasture after we broke session that night. But it hadn't always hated me so... I've got a fresh set ready to go this weekend lol.

[Elboxo]

Mind over Matter: when you cast a spell that provides a bonus to AC, that bonus increases by 2. It's not a feat though, but a class feature.

Also, mindless creatures aren't immune to illusions, quite the opposite.

I know they automatically believe what they see, but he thinks that being mindless, zombies will just run straight through walls should one appear, like i said it's his first time and i want to keep it simple for him, but i still want to be a tough nut to crack :)

Thank you for finding Mind over Matter! Huge help in making me believe i wasn't going crazy, sorry i missed it before!

Again thanks all, and i think Crucian will be allowed ( we have miniatures handbook as an actual book and so will most likely be allowed )

I want AC so i don't get hit, and there is no reason other than combat economy for me to have huge ac AND mirror image/blur/displacement. Thus why i have Brew Potion, create a lot for dirt cheap and buff throughout the dungeon without using spell slots

[NNescio]

I know they automatically believe what they see, but he thinks that being mindless, zombies will just run straight through walls should one appear, like i said it's his first time and i want to keep it simple for him, but i still want to be a tough nut to crack :)

Thank you for finding Mind over Matter! Huge help in making me believe i wasn't going crazy, sorry i missed it before!

Again thanks all, and i think Crucian will be allowed ( we have miniatures handbook as an actual book and so will most likely be allowed )

I want AC so i don't get hit, and there is no reason other than combat economy for me to have huge ac AND mirror image/blur/displacement. Thus why i have Brew Potion, create a lot for dirt cheap and buff throughout the dungeon without using spell slots

Well, if he wants zombies and constructs to pound on or attempt to walk through every single barrier or door swung into their way instead of walking around, yes.

He can't be inconsistent like that.

[Eldariel]

I want AC so i don't get hit, and there is no reason other than combat economy for me to have huge ac AND mirror image/blur/displacement. Thus why i have Brew Potion, create a lot for dirt cheap and buff throughout the dungeon without using spell slots

Wizards already come with Scribe Scroll, which is the same except Scrolls are cheaper and can be made of any spell (for personal use at the very least; others without Use Magic Device or Wizard casting obviously can't use Scrolls) :smallwink:

[Paul H]

Hi

There's always Gtr Invisibility. Difficult to hit what you can't see.

Thanks
Paul H

[deuxhero]

I'd check, but I broke out the old wrist rocket sling shot and sent it out to pasture after we broke session that night. But it hadn't always hated me so... I've got a fresh set ready to go this weekend lol.

What? You should have kept it! That die would have been insanely lucky! </Pete>

[Elboxo]

Wizards already come with Scribe Scroll, which is the same except Scrolls are cheaper and can be made of any spell (for personal use at the very least; others without Use Magic Device or Wizard casting obviously can't use Scrolls) :smallwink:

My god i'm ignorant sometimes, SCRIBE SCROLL WHAT'S THAT? HURRRRR
Cheers for pointing that out....


Hi

There's always Gtr Invisibility. Difficult to hit what you can't see.

Thanks
Paul H

Wow how could i forget? Scribe some greater invisibility scrolls and i'm set!

[ericgrau]

Brew potion is still good for handing out potions to your allies, so you can buff them and they can buff themselves. If you make your highest level potions a level below your highest level scrolls, it can still be plenty affordable. Protection from evil is a personal favorite; enough to delay getting a ring of protection or cloak of resistance until later levels. And, oh ya, your whole party is immune to domination any time you get a buffing round, oops, side effect. Enlarge person, reduce person (rogues) and oil of magic weapon are other 1st level options. Meanwhile you yourself tag the drinker with another bigger buff.

But ya with a gajillion scrolls you might want to spend your feat elsewhere, as it's not really necessary.

4th level scrolls of greater invisibility are a bit expensive. I'd just prepare the spell. OTOH it's better for emergencies than carrying a CSW potion. I just wouldn't use the scroll outside of emergencies. And at 8th level you may want something more offensive for your 4th level spell. Dang, now I'm wishing my new sorcerer carried an emergency scroll of greater invisibility; can't believe I didn't think of that before.

[Elboxo]

Well Last night I came up with a devious plan: Invisible spell : Phantom steed and then ( if I could somehow ) persist greater invisibility, or extend normal invis or something. Since I'm only 8th level the phantom steed doesn't fly yet, but it does: 160 ft standard movement each round, has silent hooves, moves over marshes/swamps at the normal rate AND lasts 8 hours. The plan was to make it an invisible spell so as to offer it some protection, also combined with my own invisibility I'd be completely silent and invisible and moving at 160 ft as a move action, 320 if I need to really run. I prepare a scroll of this or potion of this and use it at the start of the day and I'm good to go the whole day! To update you guys on the AC tracker, I've got it at 35 AC with some of the modifications you have presented; paragnostic apostle and crucian. As well as having extended blur scrolls/potions for throughout the day and mirror image when I need it for about 4-7 images of myself in especially dangerous fights. All this for practically no extra cost ( just the cost of scrolls/potions )