Clever Barbarian?

[windweaver]

Hey playground. I'm looking at creating a back up character so that I can hold him in reserve if I ever end up in a situation where a DM just decides to kill off an entire party or something. I had the idea of creating a character who was a barbarian but defied the stereotype in a way similar to Roy but less vocal about it.

The idea is that he's a strong character physically and clever (high int score) as opposed to the standard stupid barbarian character. I was thinking human and Neutral Good.

Here were the stats I rolled and where I decided to put them.

STR-17 (+2 for the human racial bonus to one stat so it'll make that one 19)
DEX-15
CON-15
INT-17
WIS-14
CHA-13

Now here are a few questions I pose the playground.

1. Do you think a DM would let me tweak the stats a bit by lowering a couple of them? My luck with character stat rolls is a bit too good sometimes and I felt like this character was just a bit too powerful from a story perspective so I'd like to take like 2 points off of DEX, WIS, and CHA just to balance the character a bit more for RP purposes.

2. What are some ways you'd RP a character like this? As part of the character he's clever but not exactly learned. He's going to be illiterate at least at first, and likely wouldn't have ranks in knowledge anything beyond perhaps nature.

To give an idea, I was kind of thinking like the way Tarzan is portrayed in the Disney film if that helps.

[Doughnut Master]

You could play him like a survivalist. He may not know biology, but he knows how to find water, or what plants to eat. He may not be an engineer, but he can build shelter and traps. He may not know psychology, but he can get a feel for people and sift through the lies of others.

What I imagine is that gruff old guy in just about every zombie movie. While everyone else was off living in society, he was practicing his decapitation techniques. Then, when ooze hits the fan, guess who's ready?

[NNescio]

Hey playground. I'm looking at creating a back up character so that I can hold him in reserve if I ever end up in a situation where a DM just decides to kill off an entire party or something. I had the idea of creating a character who was a barbarian but defied the stereotype in a way similar to Roy but less vocal about it.

The idea is that he's a strong character physically and clever (high int score) as opposed to the standard stupid barbarian character. I was thinking human and Neutral Good.

Here were the stats I rolled and where I decided to put them.

STR-17 (+2 for the human racial bonus to one stat so it'll make that one 19)
DEX-15
CON-15
INT-17
WIS-14
CHA-13

Now here are a few questions I pose the playground.

1. Do you think a DM would let me tweak the stats a bit by lowering a couple of them? My luck with character stat rolls is a bit too good sometimes and I felt like this character was just a bit too powerful from a story perspective so I'd like to take like 2 points off of DEX, WIS, and CHA just to balance the character a bit more for RP purposes.

2. What are some ways you'd RP a character like this? As part of the character he's clever but not exactly learned. He's going to be illiterate at least at first, and likely wouldn't have ranks in knowledge anything beyond perhaps nature.

To give an idea, I was kind of thinking like the way Tarzan is portrayed in the Disney film if that helps.

1. Yes. Some DMs don't allow you to nerf a character too far (as it might drag down the party if you play, say, an INT 10 Wizard), but this shouldn't be an issue in your case.

2. Conan. He's supposed to be freaking smart, after all.

[Daverin]

The biggest thing for a clever barbarian is a warrior who can both beat you to a bloody pulp with his fists, but more importantly knows exactly how to trap you into the fight, how to manuever himself, and where the best place to hit is. This hulk just so happens to be tactically superior as well, and you should see if you can get your DM to put as much attention to environmental details and intel as can be without harming your game.

Another idea is that he may feel somewhat torn between is two "halves". On one hand, he is a furious, wild warrior who takes thrill in combat, but he may also feel that this state is unbefitting of someone who is also so mentally strong. Or, maybe he is the opposite, and actually makes a point of proving how the wrath of a barbarian does not at all impede his ability to do good deeds, and does not mean he cannot also be very smart.

As I understand it, Conan the Barbarian is actually a good example. The man not only is a powerful warrior, but an able ruler, and I recall at least seeing some media on him once where basically, finding an opponent seemingly unstoppable, he stumbled upon a magical trick that was actually the opponent's source of life/power. His natural intelligence quickly picked up on it, and he made use of his size to break down the source of the power while basically taking the blows of the foe.

So, just keep stuff like that in mind. Instead of just kill, kill, kill, the intelligent barbarian knows when to hold back, when to go around, and when it is quite proper for him to go "RAGE!" and smash right through the obstacle.

[Serpentine]

Wow. Those are good rolls.

First of all, as DM, I'm always willing to let people lower stats. I'm also, if they can convince me they're doing it for roleplay reasons and not for minmaxing, willing to let them move some or all of the removed points to other stats. Can't guarantee another DM would do either, though.
edit: Another possibility, if your DM won't allow you to lower your stats but allows Flaws, is to just take the ability score-lowering Flaws...

For roleplay... There's lots of ways you could do it. The most obvious for me would be a master tactitian - he can look at a battlefield and work out exactly who should go where and do what when (from a practical standpoint, this might consist of, out of character, discussing with your party all your options and ideas, and then having your character dictate them in-character). He can spot traps - not just the gadgetry type - a mile off.
He may be illiterate, but maybe his talent lies in other areas. Maybe he has great potential to be a mathematician, if only he can get the hang of the letter-symbolism of algebra. Maybe he's a bit of an engineer, or maybe he's a scientist - if Knowledge (nature)'s his only Knowledge skill, then maybe he takes an active interest in the natural sciences and actively studies the world around him.
Actually, a savage biologist would be pretty fun to play...

[Groverfield]

No knowledge = bad. Sure, no know:Arcane, or know:A&E, but if you have the int, then as a barbarian you should take Know:Nature or Know:Geography. Also, I'd suggest take the feat Track, and be kinda savant about how well you understand the workings of nature.

[windweaver]

Thanks for the advice guys. It's really helpful and I appreciate it.

@Gloverfield: I said he'd probably have knowledge nature. I wasn't sure about Geography but I'll put that on my list of things to do.

@Serpentine: As I said, my luck with character stat rolls is pretty good. The half-elf sorcerer I've got rolled up for my main character had some pretty beast stats too (11, 16, 16, 15, 14, 17). The one time I played D&D it wasn't so good for in game rolls :/ I'm thinking about just slicing off the points. I'm not going to add them to anything else. Thanks for the heads up.

I like the tactician aspect a lot of you guys are bringing up and it seems really cool. I appreciate all the help. Please keep it coming.

[Groverfield]

Sorry, I didn't read fully, and my internet busted for a few minutes so I didn't read any replies. Also, I'd say know:geo is quite important too, as know:nature is more about knowledge about the plant creatures and animals. Knowledge about terrain, seasons, and naturey things not listed in a MM is under know:geo, but I think that skill should be folded into survival and know:nature.

[ImperatorK]

1. Do you think a DM would let me tweak the stats a bit by lowering a couple of them? My luck with character stat rolls is a bit too good sometimes and I felt like this character was just a bit too powerful from a story perspective so I'd like to take like 2 points off of DEX, WIS, and CHA just to balance the character a bit more for RP purposes.
Stormwind Fallacy much? Don't lower your stats, dude. If you're afraid to be too powerful then simply don't pick strong feats. :smallannoyed:


STR-17 (+2 for the human racial bonus to one stat so it'll make that one 19)
DEX-15
CON-15
INT-17
WIS-14
CHA-13
I would swap Con with Int. 15 Int is enough to play a smart barbarian.
Or, if you're so bent on being clever, do it like that: Str 13, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 17, Wis 15, Cha 17.

[Thespianus]

Can I be so bold to suggest just one teeny-tiny level of Rogue, preferable at your first level to reap the 48 skill points your class, int and race will get you?

If you want to keep the illiteracy, I'm sure your DM would allow that, and with a good int, you really should use that to get a decent boost to your Skill ranks.
There's so many skills that a Barbarian just don't have that the Rogue will help you with: Balance, Tumble, Spot, Escape Artist, Use Rope and Sense Motive, for example.

If you want to ignore Use Magic Device, that's cool, but the above skills really should be a part of a clever Barbarian's repertoire. If your DM complains, say that Conan was a Thief/Rogue too. ;)

(Also, sneak attack can be role played to work as a clever Barbarian's ability to "hit 'em where it hurts". If so, get Craven. ;) )

[Serpentine]

Stormwind Fallacy much? Don't lower your stats, dude. If you're afraid to be too powerful then simply don't pick strong feats. :smallannoyed:Wow. Way to miss the point, and to try to bully someone into playing your style, which clearly is the only correct one.
I fully understand where he's coming from with this. Not all character concepts - in my case, few - have room for being awesome at everything and Practically Perfect in Every Way. I - and, presumably, the OP - like to have characters with flaws and imperfections. It's not about being "afraid to be too powerful", it's about the mechanics matching the character concept. In the OP's case, the character concept calls for slightly lower Dex, Wis and Cha than those represented by his original rolls.
edit: Or maybe - as I don't want to put words in his mouth - he really is just worried about his power level. In that case, choosing to lower his ability scores is a totally legitimate way of moderating it to the level of his desire, and one moreover that would make me feel pretty happy about letting him in my game.

[ImperatorK]

Wow. Way to miss the point, and to try to bully someone into playing your style, which clearly is the only correct one.
Chill-out, miss. I'm stating my opinion. It's allowed, right?


I fully understand where he's coming from with this.
Well, I don't.
Later in my post (which part you probably missed) I suggested assigning the higher numbers to mental stats. Read it again, it's right there.

[Serpentine]

I saw. Didn't negate the disgraceful manners and strawmanning of the first part of your post.

[ImperatorK]

I don't agree with his decision and stated my opinion. If I would call him stupid or something then you would be right with your reaction. But I didn't.
Also, I would be careful with calling other posts as strawman if I where you.

[Serpentine]

You did not just "state your opinion", you did so in a completely unnecessarily antagonistic manner. You accused him of a fallacy he was not guilty of. I believe that counts as strawmanning.

[ImperatorK]

If you say so. :smallsigh:

Down: I won't take the bait.

[Serpentine]

Thank you, I do.

[Cerlis]

This is probably not constructive , but i cant help but be reminded of of my character concept of...

"Also....I can kill you with my brain...."-River

the idea being a high skill point heavy melee type (fighter, warblade, barbarian, ect) who focuses on skill points. Uses manuevers , but mostly counters (as an intellectual he prefers to avoid combat, just smart enough to have the upper hand should it come to that) that are the various "replace your stat with your skill check" Those being concentration (so focuses you cant be hit or cant be dazed or mentally hindered), Sense motive (being able to read your opponent), and Iajutsu focus (using mental and physical clarity to end the fight as soon as possible). By essentally boosting up your skills you are boosting up your fighting ability, but mentally instead of physically.

you COULD still achieve this with maybe a single initiator level and use that barbarian/tigers claw based prestige class to keep barbarianesc fighting tacked on to your mostly barbarian, but still advance your maneuvers and boosts.

[Fouredged Sword]

A swordsage / barbarian could be a good character. Focus on setting sun counters and throws. Get improved trip and fight dirty. Taunt your foe into chargeing you, coutercharge him away from you and then charge him back with a trip attack at the end of the charge.

It would be easy to pick strikes and manuvers that are very barbarian like for a swordsage. Stone dragon, setting sun, and tiger claw would both add a lot of versitility to a barbarian and let you keep all that raa! smash! fun.

[FMArthur]

With 7 skill points and only 9 class skills, it may be hard to distinguish yourself as a particularly skilled Barbarian (which is Int's only ingame manifestation on a class that doesn't use it) without expanding your skill list.


May I suggest taking the Education feat at first level to get all the Knowledges in-class? It's a feat that's in Eberron Campaign Setting, Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, and Player's Guide to Faerun. Being featured in both sides of two mutually exclusive D&D settings, it would be easy to convince a DM that it isn't really setting-specific at all.

Knowledge skills are a very useful and interesting way to use your character's Int stat in your roleplaying. You can use it in most places to come up with information pertaining to the surrounding environment, and you can always use it to identify creatures you come across. If you're looking to derive a combat advantage out of knowing your creatures, the Knowledge Devotion feat is a favorite, but it's far from impossible to utilize the information you gather in a less abstract problem-solving fashion for an advantage without even using Knowledge Devotion.

[The Dark Fiddler]

I don't know if this is applicable, but this makes me think of the barbarian concept that you hear every now and then, where rather than actually entering a frothing rage, the barbarian fights by entering a warrior's trance. For a more intellectual barbarian like yours, maybe this would fit?

[Fouredged Sword]

You would have just enough skillpoints to max out all the useful knowledges for knowledge devotion. There is another thread about barbarians and knowledge devotion use somewhere on the forum. could be interesting and the bonus to hit can be traded for MORE POWER ATTACK DAMAGE!

[FMArthur]

You would have just enough skillpoints to max out all the useful knowledges for knowledge devotion. There is another thread about barbarians and knowledge devotion use somewhere on the forum. could be interesting and the bonus to hit can be traded for MORE POWER ATTACK DAMAGE!

A tribal-limited education might merit fewer KD-relevant skills if flavor demands it, and he wouldn't be hurt too badly by dropping The Planes, Religion or Dungeoneering depending on where the campaign goes. But really, he can afford to take 6 of them. A Barbarian's ordinary skill list is Jump and Intimidate. He can easily drop one or both if need be, or even just go knowledge-only in his skillset with History and/or Geography despite their lack of direct combat application. Barbarians only need a couple feats to smash heads in real good. They can manage with dedicating their skills to noncombat applications, and being an information-monkey is probably a bit more useful than any of their other possible skillsets bar Intimidate.

[Ravens_cry]

Are you set on playing a Barbarian, or do you want to play a barbarian, a guy out of the wilds?
A Wilderness Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogueVariantWilderness Rogue) variant could allow that, getting some wilderness related class skills, while still retaining potentially strong damage output. Fluff to taste

[ImperatorK]

Maybe take Able Learner?

[gkathellar]

Skip Barbarian entirely. Conan never used Rage ...

Warblade/Wilderness Rogue all the way.

[Inferno]

Maybe start with a dip in factotum and able learner?
Now you can know everything.
and maybe see if the DM will let you keep illiteracy, for sweet flavor.

[ImperatorK]

Illiteracy. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm#illiterate) Not exclusive to Barbarians anymore! :smallbiggrin:

[Fouredged Sword]

And just for sillyness pick a knowledge as your skill that gets +1. Tell your Dm it's becuse your character learned by memory from a tribal elder. Never being able to refer to a book sharpens memory recall.

though I would go 3 levels for the int to skills bonus.

[FMArthur]

While the whole thing really does scream Warblade or look like a Factotum dip situation, sometimes bein' a Barbarian is all you want out of a character's abilities and I gotta respect that.

[windweaver]

I - and, presumably, the OP - like to have characters with flaws and imperfections. It's not about being "afraid to be too powerful", it's about the mechanics matching the character concept. In the OP's case, the character concept calls for slightly lower Dex, Wis and Cha than those represented by his original rolls.
edit: Or maybe - as I don't want to put words in his mouth - he really is just worried about his power level. In that case, choosing to lower his ability scores is a totally legitimate way of moderating it to the level of his desire, and one moreover that would make me feel pretty happy about letting him in my game.

Awwwwww shucks ma'am you gonna make me blush :smallredface: Seriously though, thank you for the compliment. It always makes a guy feel good when he hears someone would include him.


Stormwind Fallacy much? Don't lower your stats, dude. If you're afraid to be too powerful then simply don't pick strong feats. :smallannoyed:



I would swap Con with Int. 15 Int is enough to play a smart barbarian.
Or, if you're so bent on being clever, do it like that: Str 13, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 17, Wis 15, Cha 17.

Well first of all I thank you for your opinion and for providing me with knowledge of the Stormwind Fallacy. A quick bit of research revealed what you are talking about. I suspect your reaction stems from the consistent arguments over optimization around the forums yes? Please correct me if that guess is faulty. I want to explain to you that this decision was not born out of a belief that a character cannot be fun with very high stats (the half elf sorc I have as my main character has pretty high base stats and in the areas that would be most effective for pushing its power level).

This character, is something that I believe should be looked at not from the fun vs optimization dichotomy, but from the top down vs down top design dichotomy (a philosophy that can be described as vorthos vs. melvin in the Magic the Gathering card design philosophies). This character is created to have the FLAVOR of the character at the forefront. My personal rules as a writer about character creation and character flaws are what are is driving this decision. Since he has such high strength and intellect he needs to be a bit more realistic in some other ways. Does that mean he still can't be good at his job? Not at all, that's why for a melee character his strength is one of my highest numbers plus the +2 human bonus.

I do not, however, believe your alternate stat example works. If I wanted to play a wizard's stats, I'd play a wizard.

I do appreciate your interest though and sometimes it's really nice to hear a voice of decent.

To everyone who's saying to add some rogue to it, I like the idea and I'll keep it in mind. Again, this is a back up character but I like where that's going.

To those saying to play an entirely different class... I think that's missing the point. This character WILL be a barbarian because I'm interested in setting up a specific archetype of character. Thank you all for your input. I do appreciate it.

[Fouredged Sword]

If I really wanted to build this and stay to concept and stick to mainly barbarian I would do something like this

factotum 3 / barbarian 3 / warblade 1 / barbarian ---

Should give you some nice goodies like into the str and dex skill checks and then the nice stace for tigger claw blood in the water. Any strikes are just for frosting.

[Quietus]

And just for sillyness pick a knowledge as your skill that gets +1. Tell your Dm it's becuse your character learned by memory from a tribal elder. Never being able to refer to a book sharpens memory recall.

though I would go 3 levels for the int to skills bonus.

To str/dex skills, and to combat maneuvers. Both very tasty.

[ImperatorK]

I do not, however, believe your alternate stat example works. If I wanted to play a wizard's stats, I'd play a wizard.
No, dude. That are not Wizard stats. you where saying that your char. is too powerful in your taste, so I suggested to give the lower numbers to physical stats (which make a Barbarian more powerful) and the higher numbers to mental stats (which without optimalization and diping aren't adding any power to a Barbarian).

And I still don't understand how slightly higher stats are so bad for the flavor you're aiming at. :smallsigh: Sorry, it's just too silly to me. But I'm just an optimizer.