BBEG: Very Old Red Dragon, Meet the Optimizers of the Playground

[TroubleBrewing]

Seeing as my fall-to-spring gaming group comes online at the end of this month, I'm currently in the planning stages for my next campaign. The campaign is going to start at level 10 and progress until 20, when they'll meet the BBEG. I'm restricting players to Tier 3 and 2 classes only, with a maximum of 4 dipped levels in lower-Tier classes. (I'm just not talented enough to deal with Tier 1's in high-ish optimization level games yet.)

The BBEG for said campaign is a Very Old Red Dragon, and she needs a good ol' Playground-style optimization treatment. I'm already planning on giving her max HP per HD, as that worked mahhhhvelously on my last big bad (see "Big Bad Needs More Health" thread for more information), and I like long, exciting fights.

I'm working out the specifics for her lair as we speak, but optimizing a lair is easy; big open space, no hiding places. Strafe with breath weapon until all the food stops moving, collect your winnings at the door.

I'm most concerned with feat and spell selection. As she has 31HD, she'll have 11 feats and CL 13. I'm reading through Draconomicon right now just as required reading, and it's proving informative. As this thread progresses, I'll keep the playground up to date on my choices as per the critter goes, and hopefully, at the end of it, I'll be able to provide a full breakdown of her abilities and such. (Perhaps a stat block? WHO KNOWS! Stay tuned!)

[HunterOfJello]

There's an Advanced Red Great Wyrm in the Draconomicon that's rated at CR 40. It can cast spells as a level 33 sorcerer and would be fun to throw against your party.

You could just name it the Avatar of Ashardalon.

[ILM]

Well Flyby attack is a must-have, so that's one already. I recently made a dragon cohort focusing on breath attacks (mind, it only had 14 HD but I did give it 2 flaws for a total of 7 feats). I went with Draconic Aura, Ability Focus (I'm a big fan of high DCs), Recover Breath and Entangling Exhalation. The remaining two were Multiattack and Awaken Frightful Presence (since it had too low HD to have one already). There's a really nifty feat in Draconomicon I think, that allows you to fire a continuous breath as you fly by, effectively allowing you to torch an entire area. Coupled with high mobility (which I believe you can top out with one spell, one feat and one item) you can make one mother of an AoE.

Of course, if you'd rather make it a melee beast or a primary caster, those feats are kind of worthless for you.

[Runestar]

I also posted a thread some time back about a dragon which acquired alternate form (using some feat in dragons of eberron), then used persistent strength of the true form to retain its physical stats while in human form. This may not be all that optimal, but it does allow for a sort of transformational fight. The PCs first encounter the dragon in human form, who fights them with spells/sword. Then after a certain point, he reverts back into dragon form to continue the fight.

For spells, I suppose you will want those with swift casting times or longer-duration buffs so they don't interfere with its normal attack routine. If you throw in 1 lv of sorc, you benefit from elite stat array, 7th lv spells (for arcane spellsurge) and metamagic specialist variant (PHB2).

The breath spells are always fun, since they don't take any extra time.

Also, here is an article on some stuff to look out for when running a dragon. Again, while it doesn't really make the dragon any stronger, it can help make the encounter more fun, and that's always a plus in my book. :smallsmile:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20061013a
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/fc

[TroubleBrewing]

There's an Advanced Red Great Wyrm in the Draconomicon that's rated at CR 40. It can cast spells as a level 33 sorcerer and would be fun to throw against your party.

You could just name it the Avatar of Ashardalon.

Well, thanks for the input, but that's not even close to what I'm trying to do. I'm creating an optimized CR 21 encounter, not trying to kill them. I'm trying to make a Final Boss Fight for a 20th level party, so CR 40 encounters are not at all what I'm looking for.


*nifty stuff about breath weapons and flyby attack*

Very cool. I'll be picking and choosing various parts of these suggestions for sure, becaaauuussseee...


Of course, if you'd rather make it a melee beast or a primary caster, those feats are kind of worthless for you.

I'm actually trying to make it do all three things to a certain extent. I'm still not sure what kind of party this thing will be facing, so I'm trying to leave all my options open. (The only information I can provide thusfar is that one of my players let out a low whistle whilst reading through MoI for the first time last night, so he might go with something Incarnum based?)

@Runestar: I actually saw that thread a while back, and was really impressed with some of the stuff in it! Sadly, for this fight, I'm more looking to keep this purely dragon-formed from start to finish. Most of the players have never fought a dragon in proper D&D style before, so I want to provide that iconic experience as well as I can. I'm also not looking to increase its CR at all, otherwise I would slap on Sorc levels like they were going out of style. :smalltongue: Those links, however, will be a massive help to ensure that I get full draconic flavor out of this fight!

[candycorn]

I would like to iterate: Dragons are as much about tactics as anything.

Players have 4 actions to your 1. This is known as Action advantage.

Your first goal should be to neutralize that advantage, through preparation and lair selection. You don't need to seperate the PC's (though if they do, take advantage of it)... But definitely limit their information through spells that do these things.

Calculate the lair treasure, and use it.

And I'll give more specific advice later.

[Eldan]

Your dragon needs Immunity to ability damage. Otherwise, dexterity damage drops it in one or two rounds, if someone can reach it.

[mucco]

There are some feats that are strictly necessary, in my opinion: Flyby Attack, Practiced Spellcaster, Awaken Spell Resistance, Power Attack.

Then optimize it as you would a sorcerer. Some key spells to have for a strong dragon are Wraithstrike, Scintillating Scales, and if you can get it Arcane Spellsurge - that one is pure win for dragons. Extend Wraithstrike so half the rounds you can cast something else.

Max UMD, find a way to hold a wand of that spell (Lion's Charge?) that lets you pounce. There's a feat that lets you pounce on your first round in Draconomicon.

Get the metabreath spells, they're ridiculous if you like to optimize your breath's save DC. I mean, Reflex to negate blindness as a 3rd level spell IIRC. And dragons' DCs are over the roof.

Divide and conquer. Wraithstrike+PA+pounce = 1 dead PC if they're not prepared, so if you can isolate one of them it's easy food for you. I like Wall of Force for that.

I liked that one feat that let you breath as a swift action :smallbiggrin:

Lots of stuff to do.

[Wings of Peace]

Make the Red Dragon Troll-Blooded and employ a method of non-magical acid immunity. :smallsmile:

[ILM]

Thing is, an Old Red has a (Sorc) caster level of 13, meaning only access to 6th level spells. He can do some battlefield control and buffing, but he isn't really likely to threaten level 20-ish characters offensively. I'd use the spells to make sure they fight on your terms (illusion of a low ceiling and narrowish corridor, for instance - might keep them where you want them to be but still allow you to fly up when necessary).

Entangling Exhalation is pretty insane, so regardless of what you do I suggest you get that too (if they take damage, they're entangled for 1d4 rounds. Saving throws are for losers).

I don't know if you're set on a Red by the way; there's other dragons out there with nastier breath weapons than fire damage...

edit: by the way, you should check out the Bloodwing spell.

[Sception]

Whatever you do, don't forget to account for your vulnerabilities. I think there's a spell in draconomicon that lets you add natural armor to touch ac? Finding some way to be immune to ability damage/drain is useful, and of course resistance to any element you're otherwise vulnerable to. Be prepared to attack with non-typical elements as well (items to grant, say, lightning damage to your red dragon's natural attacks?), as the party will likely be prepared with resistance.

Of course, if you're willing to homebrew some effects, there's a lot of cool things you could try. I ran a red dragon that I gave a radiating heat ability to (fire damage aura), and made it's breath weapon damage fire resistance (every time you were hit by it any fire resistance was reduced by 5). I dropped hints that it could do this, and the result was a fairly dynamic encounter where the dragon would wear down the party's prepared resistance and they would put it back up over the course of the battle.

[mucco]

One more thing I should probably add: the feats you get at 21, 24, 27, 30 HD can be Epic. So, yeah.

Then... if you give it a Sorc level, it automatically gains the Elite array, you get to choose its loot from level 22 NPC WBL (!), and it will be able to cast Arcane Spellsurge.

If you keep it at Sorc 13, then try to find as many Swift spells you can. Abuse those. Get that spell that lets you activate Stoneskin as a swift action (Heart of Earth?) with no material components. Get many many scrolls, and a scroll of Timestop is your dear friend. With 31 HD, you won't even have to look at the DC for activating the scroll.

Antimagic Field (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html). That will utterly crush any arcanist who didn't prepare Orbs, any Psion who didn't learn Crystal Shard, and almost any other character. Save it for later in the battle though.

Try to find a way to even out action economy. You can be a beast but if it's 4 rounds of level 20 characters vs. you, it's going to be tough in any case. Evening out action economy means, more often than not, killing/incapacitating someone in the first or second round.

Man, I love optimizing dragons.

[Saintheart]

One interesting point is that reds can cast either cleric or arcane spells as arcane, as well as any spell from the chaos, evil, and fire domains. So that means all 7th level cleric and arcane spells are open to you. You also don't have to Awaken Spell Resistance, it's already got it at 26. (There is Improved Spell Resistance, which raises that to 28.)

The main disadvantage you've got is that reds breathe fire, and a Very Old red breathes 18d10, DC 33. Fire Resistance is one of the easier energy forms to defend against. Assume a maximum hit, 180 points, failed save. If a player has Protection from Energy and Resist Energy up, the first 120 points will exhaust the Protection from Energy spell, leaving you 60 points. Of that 60, 30 will then be cut by the Resist Energy spell. That's only spells, no items or other shenanigans.

Thus: 30 points left of damage to hitpoints -- nowhere near lethal to a 20th level character.

And bear in mind that's the best case scenario. Less than 180 points, less than 30 net points of damage. Saving throw wipes the damage entirely (whether or not the character has Improved Evasion).

Breath weapons do hit multiple targets at once, but if you're looking to do some serious damage and you want to emphasise breath weapons during the confrontation, metabreath feats are the way to go. Some of them by RAW stack with themselves at the cost of extending time between breaths; it's entirely possible to have more or less a nuclear blast for a first breath, provided you accept you're not going to breathe fire again for the rest of the combat.

As some people have already noted, action advantage is a big problem. One way of dealing with this is to add your own additional actions. Spam allies, in other words. 13th level cleric can Summon Monster VII, which means djinni (3 wishes!) by RAW and babau are now yours to command. Hell, Large Fire Elementals could be fun and thematically appropriate. And this is before you go to the arcane spell list.

[Runestar]

Then optimize it as you would a sorcerer. Some key spells to have for a strong dragon are Wraithstrike, Scintillating Scales, and if you can get it Arcane Spellsurge - that one is pure win for dragons. Extend Wraithstrike so half the rounds you can cast something else.

There is no point in extending wraithstrike. It is a swift action, so you can still full-attack. If you apply metamagic feats to it, that would increase its casting time, leaving you unable to do anything for that round, which kinda defeats the purpose of the improved duration.

Of course, if you could somehow persist it...:smallamused:

[Cog]

There is no point in extending wraithstrike. It is a swift action, so you can still full-attack.
The point was given; alternating extended swifts lets you stack two of them on each attack.


If you apply metamagic feats to it, that would increase its casting time...
There's a feat for that. At least a couple, actually.

[Runestar]

Oh, and one buff no self respecting dragon should never be without.

Bite of the werebear. :smalleek:

Ray deflection to take care of ranged touch spells.

Battlefield perception can help with countering spells, buying you a bit of time (and helping with the action economy a little).

[candycorn]

First:

Your dragon is CR 21. Generally, I recommend that Finale encounters be CR +2-3. Based on that, I recommend an Ancient Red for a finale encounter.

Average breath damage is going to be 99, reflex DC 33 half (unless boosted).

Here are recommendations.

1) Multiattack. You're swinging (unbuffed), the following attacks on a full attack:
{table=header]Attack | Bonus | Damage
Bite | +40 | 4d6+13
Claw | +35 | 2d8+6
Claw | +35 | 2d8+6
Wing | +35 | 2d6+6
Wing | +35 | 2d6+6
Tail Slap | +35 | 2d8+19[/table]

Multiattack will boost accuracy on the secondary attacks by +3, which is good for...

2) Power Attack. If you buff yourself up a bit, and power attack for 10, that's an extra 60 damage. with other buffs, that can go WAY higher.

3) Practiced Spellcaster. Your caster level is low... this will protect you from autodispel.

[CTrees]

Anti-magic fields are your friend. I think I saw a comic once, somewhere, where a dragon was talking about how a wizard, in an AMF, becomes just another monkey, while a dragon... is still a dragon. Not sure where that might have been, though...

More interesting point: The Red Dragon fire immunity isn't supressed in an AMF, but most means of fire resistance the party will have access to are. Very Old/Ancient Reds also have plenty of Constitution, so while the actual mechanics of moving through lava in D&D are a little odd (I think it basically acts as very, very hot water, RAW), lava in the lair could be fun to grapple and move PCs into. Just swim down as far as possible with them - the Red will take a ridiculous amount of time to be in danger of drowning, but a PC with their fire resistance removed will be hurting very, very quickly. Though really, even just bullrushes could be fun.

I'd also suggest an escape route that goes through lava, preferably including an AMF at some point (dragons don't live that long without being smart enough to flee when they need to). Realistically, you don't need much solid ground in the lair, or any contiguous ground at all.

Further, if you go for the classic ornamentation of "streams of lava are pouring down into the giant pool from above," various force effects can redirect those onto PCs, dynamically changing the battlefield, and giving them an additional environmental hazard/trick to worry about. Will probably catch someone by surprise, at least.

One more thing, related to "dragons are smart." Minions are very useful, and a very old red would know this. Adventurers are likely to prep against fire, but if you have minions which dish out cold or electrical damage... can be another fun surprise. Heck, a casting of Cone of Cold would be plenty amusing.

EDIT: In summation, any of the very powerful dragons should have lairs that are hilariously lethal to anyone who isn't a dragon of that type.

[Eldest]

The comic was here. I hope you weren't kidding about not remembering.

Another possibility would be to somehow get a fake version of the dragon in the first (fake) lair, and then the real dragon come out right after that fight was over, having spent all of her time buffing. Make sense?

[CTrees]

The comic was here. I hope you weren't kidding about not remembering.

:smallwink: honestly, I realized it was going to be too much of a pain to look up the comic to link it, so I went with massive, obvious sarcasm


Another possibility would be to somehow get a fake version of the dragon in the first (fake) lair, and then the real dragon come out right after that fight was over, having spent all of her time buffing. Make sense?

Ooh! Gargantuan Animated Object! A handful of spells, and you could make it *very* convincing. Animatronic dragon fight!

[Keld Denar]

I'm creating an optimized CR 21 encounter, not trying to kill them. I'm trying to make a Final Boss Fight for a 20th level party

CR21 for a final boss fight for an APL20 party is suicide for the dragon, optimized or not. For a solo big bad, especially at level 20, I'd go CR24 AT LEAST, probably CR25. The DMG suggests APL+4 ELs for a 1/day boss fight. BBEG fights are boss fights +1, given that they are the culmination of the entire campaign, the ultimate do or die.

Just sayin.

And yea, look into the spells Scintilating Scales (use the reprinted SpC version), Blood Wind, and Wraith Strike. Also, your dragon will have an IL of like, 15-17 with 30-35 HD, so some of those later feats can be used to grab a martial strike or two. Dragon + Time Stands Still = OUCH! You can also get maneuvers via items.

Things I'd consider for your dragon:

Some way to improved maneuverability (Pectorial of (Greater) Maneuverability)
Freedom of Movement (Ring of FoM)
Death Ward (Bracers of Armor of Soulfire?)
100% Fortification (Gem of Fortification)
True Seeing (this one is harder, probably self cast?)

Also, the AMF idea is a good fallback. I wouldn't use it right away, given that it prevents a few of your other tricks like Blood Wind, but its a nice one when things get hairy. If your party isn't all decked out in FoM themselves, which they SHOULD be, but if they aren't, Fogs are nice for eating up actions. Fog once, cast a buff, then breath weapon the fog and roast all of the little peons inside. They'll teach them to clump up in 20' radii!

[Draz74]

To boost your CR up from 21 to 24ish, instead of increasing the dragon by an age category, I recommend giving it a few class levels. A level of Warblade or two levels of Totemist can do nasty things for a dragon. A level of Sorcerer can be surprisingly helpful, too, since your familiar will have awesome BAB and HP.

Also, I'm adding supporting votes to Entangling Exhalation and the spell(s) that let him switch his breath weapon to other energy types.

[subject42]

Wings of Cover is another awesome spell. It's basically a great big immediate action "NO" to any given attack in a round.

[jguy]

Simple things would be the Shield and Mage Armor spells. +8 AC right there on top of it's crazy armor already. You can use Greater Mage Armor too for a bit higher. Greater Mirror Image will give the melee players fits as the images keep popping up and has the benefit of being an immediate action. You will want a Ring of Enduring Arcana (I think that is what it is called) for a +4 to CL to oppose dispels.

Look into the Lair Wards in Draconomicon. I don't know them off the top of my head but they work really well in protecting the lair from all sorts of things. If the dragon worships any evil deity, set up Unhallow to your lair with Dispel Magic tied to it to those who don't worship your deity. As soon as they step in they all will get hit with Dispel Magic over and over. While at level 20 their CL will be really high, needing a roll of 20 to hit most, you will get them eventually. At worst it freaks them out.

[Taelas]

I'd personally up the dragon to Wyrm or Great Wyrm. You said you wanted a classic dragon fight, and as others have mentioned, CR21 will not be much of a challenge. (They are expected to beat CR21 as a matter of routine.)

[Andorax]

Dragon Magazine #304: Monstrous Spells

Greater Spell Resistance (Sorc/Wis 6) lets you add your caster level to your (Ex) SR. That'll take your SR from trivial to nearly unbeatable for your target audience (particularly with Practiced Spellcaster...26 vs 43).


You're eligible for epic feats. Spellcasting Harrier (Draconomicon) is recommended, even with the earlier feat tax of Combat Reflexes.


The items section of the Draconomicon is also well worthy of browsing. Draught of Metabreath Magic (particularly of Breath Weapon Substitution) comes to mind. Alternately, just go with the spell itself (Sor/Wiz 4), or consider the Talon of Tiamat prestige class, that gets free and unlimited use of it at 2nd level, at the cost of +1 round breath recovery.

[Quietus]

For funsies - you said one of your players was looking at Incarnum? One of the Dragon magazines had Brood Keeper's Heart, a meld that gives +2 to concentration checks, +2 more per essentia invested. This can be gained via Shape Soulmeld. On its own, not so great, but when bound to the Heart chakra - which can be opened with an Epic feat - it grants you the swarm subtype. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#swarmSubtype)

A few highlights :
- Immune to any spell that targets a specific number of creatures (disintegrate, shivering touch)
- 50% boost in damage from area-based attacks
- Resistant to weapon damage based on the size of the constituent creatures (not sure how this works with this trick)
- Immune to critical hits and flanking
- replaces normal attacks with a 5d6 swarm attack
- Distraction is DC 10 + 1/2 HD + con vs Nauseated - VERY mean coming off a dragon

It makes for a very different sort of fight than the usual dragon fight, but could be a scary change if you really wanted to throw something at your players they aren't expecting.

[Keld Denar]

Oh! Speaking of Metabreath spells. Blinding Breath (Wiz/Sorc4) and Stunning Breath (Wiz/Sorc5) are both great options. Your DC will be really high, and even if they have fire resistance (just not fire immunity), a failed save still screws them. I'd argue that at that level, Blinding Breath is probably better than Stunning Breath, since there are lots of ways to get immunity to Stun. There are almost no ways to get immunity to Blinding though, and who actually preps Remove Blindness/Deafness when going into combat with a dragon?

[Draz74]

Oh! Speaking of Metabreath spells. Blinding Breath (Wiz/Sorc4) and Stunning Breath (Wiz/Sorc5) are both great options. Your DC will be really high, and even if they have fire resistance (just not fire immunity), a failed save still screws them. I'd argue that at that level, Blinding Breath is probably better than Stunning Breath, since there are lots of ways to get immunity to Stun. There are almost no ways to get immunity to Blinding though, and who actually preps Remove Blindness/Deafness when going into combat with a dragon?

Nice. Although I suppose there's always the outside chance that they'll have Synesthete or a Blindfold of True Darkness. And as a L20 Cleric, I would certainly carry at least a scroll of Remove Blindnesss/Deafness.

Still ...

[dextercorvia]

Make the Red Dragon Troll-Blooded and employ a method of non-magical acid immunity. :smallsmile:


To boost your CR up from 21 to 24ish, instead of increasing the dragon by an age category, I recommend giving it a few class levels. A level of Warblade or two levels of Totemist can do nasty things for a dragon. A level of Sorcerer can be surprisingly helpful, too, since your familiar will have awesome BAB and HP.

Also, I'm adding supporting votes to Entangling Exhalation and the spell(s) that let him switch his breath weapon to other energy types.

I'd like to recommend putting these together. If you add a level of Sorcerer and two others that advance casting, you will be able to toss around 8th level spells. Do you know what 8th level spell goes well with Trollblooded and protects against Ability Damage? Veil of Undeath (SpC).

[JaronK]

A few important points:

1) Dragons have a limited Blindsense range. Outside this range, it's quite easy to sneak up on them in wide open areas, simply because they're big and have trouble hiding and the penalties to spot and listen at long range are huge. As such, having such a wide open cavern is actually a liability if the party has stealth types... they can sneak up on the dragon and potentially cause a lot of havock (consider a Factotum with Spectral Hand and Shivering Touch). You DON'T want the BBEG fight consisting of someone using Sniper's Shot to coup de grace your dragon while he's sleeping. So the actual sleeping area of the dragon should be a position from which everything within line of sight is also within his Blindsense range.

2) Similar to number 1, you really don't want your big boss getting surprised and debilitated before he can act. Use traps that make lots of noise so he can realize there are invaders before they strike.

3) Shivering Touch, from Frostburn, can easily kill a dragon in one shot. It's a touch attack that does 3d6 dex damage with no save. All smart old dragons should be defending against this as best they can. For a red dragon, consider the extremely simple step of getting a hat of disguise and wearing it all the time so that whenever you're out and visible you look like a White Dragon. That way the party won't even think to cast the spell, thinking you're immune. Also, the Shimmering Scales spell can raise the dragon's touch AC enough to defend against this, but it needs to be cast before the fight... see 1&2 if using this defense.

4) Feel free to use illusions so the Red Dragon can feel out his enemies. Attacking with a Major Image can be quite effective... just fly at them so it looks like the illusion will attack next round, and see what spells they unload onto the illusion. Very handy.

JaronK

[Tvtyrant]

There are a pair of feats that grant you a single bind a day as a midlevel binder. Take those and bind the Naberious healing bind to deal with stat damage. Then have the Dragon take Leadership and have D-Shamans to buff it with their auras. Win. :P

[Calimehter]

3) Shivering Touch, from Frostburn, can easily kill a dragon in one shot. It's a touch attack that does 3d6 dex damage with no save. All smart old dragons should be defending against this as best they can. For a red dragon, consider the extremely simple step of getting a hat of disguise and wearing it all the time so that whenever you're out and visible you look like a White Dragon. That way the party won't even think to cast the spell, thinking you're immune. Also, the Shimmering Scales spell can raise the dragon's touch AC enough to defend against this, but it needs to be cast before the fight... see 1&2 if using this defense.

Since the Red can use cleric spells, and since this spell is a 'classic' dragon killer, I wonder if Spell Immunity (against Shivering Touch) wouldn't be a good use of a 4th level slot. 10min/level gives you a lot of leeway, and lets you skip the hat of disguise (indeed, you *want* the PCs to try it and waste an action if you've got this spell up).

--------------------

This is more of a questions really, but what do you guys think of Maximize Breath Weapon? Its 'just' damage and it has that prep round where you can't do anything, but we nearly had a TPK in our last game when the dragon used stealth spells to get the drop on us with that little gem.

[JaronK]

The hat gives the side benefit that folks will prep fire spells to kill the "white" dragon, only to have all those spells be useless.

JaronK

[Calimehter]

True dat.

Heck, you could play "paranoid wizard" style and do both. Get them coming and going. :smallbiggrin: Combine this with fun with illusions and you could have the PCs playing a real game of wack-a-mole trying to figure out what the dragon's true immunities and vulnerablities are.

[TroubleBrewing]

Wow, just woke up and read through this and had a TON of good responses. I'll respond to as many of them as I can.

@ All of the Troll-blooded suggestions: I was under the impression that was a Human-only feat? Regardless, as funny as that would be, I think I'll avoid that one for now.

@Mucco: Epic feats? Not a bad idea. I'll keep that in mind, but many of the "essential" dragon feats are non-epic. If I've got a slot or two left over, I'll check out the ELH for ideas.

@Candycorn, Draz74, Keld, and Szar: Point well taken. I'm upgrading it to Wyrm (CR 24) with just 1 class level: Warblade. :smallamused: IL 20, which is freakin' sweet.

@Metabreath suggestions: Yes. This. SO much this. What's more "iconic dragon-fight" than breath weapons? I'm sticking with Red simply because... Well, frankly, she's a fire-breathing dragon. Iconic, you know?

@JaronK: 1 and 2 are actually taken care of. And here is where I explain.

The entire campaign is a "scavenger hunt" style game. The story goes that every 100 years, a portal opens up in Insert Large Metropolis Here. This portal leads to a dungeon, which, if successfully completed, gives the location of another dungeon in the form of a riddle. Follow all of the clues, and you will find the hoard of Vebrendos, the greediest dragon who ever lived. She's been dead for 1000 years, but her hoard remains untouched by the eyes or hands of any creature.

The twist is as follows: Vebrendos is very much alive. She's been using this "scavenger hunt" story to lure wealthy and well-equipped adventurers to her lair for a millennium now. The party will emerge into the treasure room, and their greedy hearts will explode with joy at the mountains and mountains of gold and items and art and things within. And then the dragon will breathe fire on them from above. The treasure will drain down a grate in the center of the room. The dragon will fight for a few rounds, then find some place to perch and deliver the "Hahaha you fools" speech for a little while, get the party nice and fired up (lol dragon pun), and then they'll have themselves a proper fight on their hands.

So, I'm not concerned about the party sneaking up on her. She's going to be doing the sneaking. Suggestions 3&4, however, are excellent points. I'm planning on having a Ring of Spell Immunity or whatever and Shivering Touch will be one of those spells.

@Tvtyrant: Leadership. Pholtus, what a beautiful feat. Yeah, I'll be taking that one for sure.

@Calimheter/JaronK(again): I'm going to avoid using the "paranoid wizard" style of play, here. I'm already throwing them against an adventure 5 above their ECL, making them fight on her terms, and giving her max HP per HD. (836 HP, with the Warblade level, without any enhancements to her CON score)

[Groverfield]

Few things that you'll need, aka "It's dangerous to go alone, take this."

Spell resist improvement is almost a must
Get immunity to ability damage/drain at any cost. A few 1st level spells that do dex damage equal death for a dragon.
Cold resistance or artificial cold immunity is also highly important. A few polar rays take down even the reddest of dragons due to their usual weakness to it. Note: You could have this be dispellable as to not punish your group's mailman.

[Dusk Eclipse]

If you have Dragons of Eberrons, there is a sovereign Archetype Wyrm of War which gives free tiger claw maneuvers, I don't remember the trade off but you should check it.

[ZealPaladin]

I ran an effective campaign before where the BBEG was a Great Wyrm Red Dragon (CR 26). The PCs fought the dragon at levels 19-20, and it made an excellent way to end the campaign. Feat-wise, the dragon had some combat-oriented ones (to be used in conjunction with Antimagic Field) such as Flyby Attack and Awesome Blow.

Prior to antimagic, I spent a few opening rounds blasting enemies with spells (as a level 19 Sorcerer). If you like the standard Metamagics, I'd recommend Arcane Preparation (I believe this is from Complete Arcane, I'm not sure at the moment). This allows you to prepare Quickened spells normally (ordinarily, spontaneous casters can't). Quickening a damage spell, or buff, can be VERY useful in a 4v1 fight - it adds another action to the mix, and keeps players on their toes. Unfortunately, if you're going with an Ancient or lower dragon, you won't be able to Time Stop (which is also awesome for buffing) but you can always cast an Energy Immunity (Cold) spell (from Comp Arcane) prior to battle. In addition to this, Twin Spell (+4 spell level, duplicate spell effect) and Sudden Maximize could turn an average-level spell into a large amount of damage spread across the PCs. I also found that the feat Craft Contingent Spell (Arcane again) worked nicely - you could set Protection from Energy (or even Immunity) as a Contingent spell so that when hit with a certain type of energy, the spell activates. This can also be used, by extension and with creativity, for healing and buffs.

Once you've done a significant amount of damage spell-wise, I'd just recommend turning on the AM field, and (multiattack helps here) then going for a full attack on one party member. If they have taken enough damage from spells/enhanced breath weapons, then the PC you full attack will either need massive healing or be dropped. Either way, you are lowering the player's action advantage (by making someone concentrate on healing, or by dropping a player) and creating a more challenging fight.

[TroubleBrewing]

Alright, I've got enough resources to pull Feats from, now comes a trickier one.

-How do I determine her wealth?
-Do I use NPC wealth?
-Is the fact that she's CR 25 important?
-Should I use PC wealth instead, to reflect her greed?
-If I decide to use PC wealth, do I use her HD to determine starting wealth? (That would be madness. ECL 38 starting gold is in the tens of millions.)
-Should I instead roll up her entire hoard, and then, when I know how many of each type of magic item will be present, do I just pick stuff that is useful to her?

[mucco]

I believe that RAW, since you gave it a class level, you have to go by the NPC Epic WBL, using its CR (not HD) as its level. Not too sure about that. Although...

It's your BBEG. Give it whatever you feel like giving. It should have, in my view, more equipment than its standard, just to reflect the fact he is that awesome.

Maybe stay within the WBL, and then give him one or two very strong magic items, extra.

[candycorn]

Ok, the dragon is now CL 15.
Practiced Spellcaster boosts that to 19.
Magic Tattoo (Spell Compendium) boosts it to 20.

Greater Dispel Magic is a useful spell to have.

All dragons should have Max ranks in spot and listen. That's 37 or so ranks, for formidable detection abilities.

Righteous Might is great for putting that dragon into colossal size.

Minions! They don't need to be a threat (I recommend keeping several, around CR 13-15), but they need to distract. A red is haughty, and thinks it superior to all others. Using fodder to distract, then burning them all, friend and foe alike? Awesome.

Lair! Reds are immune to fire. Use this to your advantage. Put that guy in a smoldering volcano, complete with pools of lava, and a 40-50 foot ceiling.

Downdraft (Spell Compendium)! For dropping people into lava!

Don't be afraid to grab a maneuver or two from shadow hand via feat... That swift action teleport is sexy.

[ILM]

Technically, she's an ECL 38 NPC so you'd ust the number for that.

In practice, she's the BBEG so you should just give her whatever the hell you think is appropriate :smallsmile:.

[Delusion]

The hat gives the side benefit that folks will prep fire spells to kill the "white" dragon, only to have all those spells be useless.

JaronK

Though dragon wearing hat can look bit weird.

Unless its a tophat of course.

[Moogleking]

1. Sneak Attack in someform (e.g Rogue levels)
2. Lots of lava pits, all interconnected.
3. Fire Elementals in the pits.
4. Illusions.

Now, every X HP have her dive into the nearest hole. If anyone follows her, they get mobbed by Fire Elementals. Not enough to kill them, but enough to stop their pursuit.

Then, have an illusionary dragon jump out and dive at them.
Meanwhile the real dragon (now invisible) jumps out and attacks.

Alternatively, out of every pit jumps an illusionary dragon, bar one. Which the real dragon jumps out of.

[Talya]

To boost your CR up from 21 to 24ish, instead of increasing the dragon by an age category, I recommend giving it a few class levels. A level of Warblade or two levels of Totemist can do nasty things for a dragon. A level of Sorcerer can be surprisingly helpful, too, since your familiar will have awesome BAB and HP.

Also, I'm adding supporting votes to Entangling Exhalation and the spell(s) that let him switch his breath weapon to other energy types.

Second this, except to say multiple levels of sorcerer. Remember, his draconic sorcerer casting will stack with the class, and this also moves him to the Elite Array instead of generic 10s and 11s (although, for a BBEG, you're entirely justified giving him a PC point buy to start with.) A very old red has 13 level sorcerer casting, 3 sorcerer levels gives him 8th level spells.

Which is not to say you shouldn't look at warblade or totemist as well. Oh, by the way, the starting initiator level for a very old red that already has 3 levels of sorcerer is 18. (And contrary to common wisdom, unless you're building starting at level 1, your first stance for any TOB class is not limited to level 1.) I think I'd almost suggest swordsage instead...

[Runestar]

There is little point in taking more than 1 lv in sorc actually, when other prcs such as abjurant champion do the job much better. Full bab (admitably redundant here) and the ability to use your bab as your caster lv? Say high to caster lv31+ blasphemies...:smallamused:

[Essence_of_War]

For the minions idea, keep a handful of Dragonkin around (they're a playable race with RHD, I have some basic details about them in the RHD link in my sig, you can find more in the Draconomicon). They start with 7 HD, and you can toss on some class levels to taste. 6 levels of fighter for flying, dungeoncrashers? Maybe a few extra warblade levels for extra scary? Even if they aren't a huge threat, they can distract, disrupt, and annoy.

Check out the spawn of tiamat in MM4 also. There are some neat ideas for dragon servant type creatures, and you can freely pack a few templates or class levels onto the basic chassis to bring them up to whatever ECL you need them at.

[Talya]

other prcs such as abjurant champion...

Yeah, that's interesting, btw, i was thinking about that.

Someone here suggested dragons are elible for epic feats by nature of having more than 20 hit dice. I don't really think they are.

A dragon's BAB equals its number of dragon hit dice. A red Great Wyrm has a BAB of +40. If it were following epic rules, it would have a BAB of +20 and EAB of +10. But it is NOT epic.

So I start wondering, where would class level stacking begin to factor in here? At what point are they actually epic? Does an very old red abjurant champion get full BAB benefit from its abjurant champion levels?

[SowZ]

The typical Dragon fight you hear about where they go into the layer and whittle him down while dodging fire blasts is versus a dragon with severe mental handicaps. A Very Old Red Dragon has 23 Int. That is in the genius range.

THE FOLLOWING ENCOUNTER IS AN EXAMPLE FIGHT. So while the general style of this battle at least in preparedness is what you probably want to aim for, I am not suggesting you do all of these, (except for the false cave/collapse thing. Every dragon should do that,) but rather show what a dragon fight can look like.

The Dragon will be 'prepared.' First layer of defenses will be expensive and hyper deadly traps, (dragons are rich,) as well as glyphs, runes, anti-magic fields, constructs, etc. and they will not come one at a time. They will be planned in a way that is relentless. That is, once one is triggered defenses keep coming until the player is dead. With traps going off like crazy, constructs atacking, magical glyphs activating, it should be a nuisance to level 20s but they will live. Should the party think they can rest, servants of the Dragon will sneak in and ambush them in their sleep. There is no sleeping between encounters. The whole thing has to be done in one shot as they will keep getting attacked. A Dragon of this level could easily choose the best Kobolds in the region. A squad of 10 Dragon Disciples level 6-12? Kobolds of this level are smart. They will take potshots and run away or all focus their fire on the weakest member at the same time until that member is dead. If your players aren't smart and prepared, they are dead.

The Dragon will have magical items to give it immunity to bullcrap. Spell Resistance items/Psionic Resistance items that give the dragon a 50% chance or so to ignore spells of a caster of level 20 would be nice. A way to make it immune or partially immune to Domination/Polymorph and other such baloney is a must if the party makeup allows for it. (I can make a character that will consistently dominate that impressive looking +23 will at level 10, much less 20. It isn't even tough to make such a build. I am sure others could make a more efficient dominator.) Other charms that each give various abilities and maneuvours are a must have.

In the actual lair of the dragon will be the dragon herself, more traps, more runes, maybe a construct, and any Kobolds not yet killed, and possibly a cohort. Make is something fun to fight. Maybe a necromancer as level 20s should chop through his undead but distracting them for even a few rounds is deadly against the dragon and all she needs is a distraction. If her attacks/spells aren't working very well initially, (which will include spells like dominate and other things while everyone is distracted by the kobolds/zombies/construts,) she will resort to one of a dozen back up plans. Plunge the cave into complete darkness, for example. If the heroes deal with that and get her below half health and she can't acitvate another contigencey, she may do her biggest contigency of all... This is a fake cave.

Now, the heroes should have been smart enough to divine the cave/the dragons lair before hand and they should know this is going to happen. They should have a way to stop it, (dimensional anchor,) or follow the teleport because the real cave will be simpler but contain the treasures, possibly deep underground, maybe small, with anti-scrying fields up the wazoo. Now, immediatly after the dragon leaves the cave is triggered to collapse and crush everything inside, (including the heroes.) Escaping the cave without magic at this point would be nearly impossible. An escape sequence with enough HP, coordination, and reflex saves may get them out if you want but then they lost the dragon.

If the heroes get to the cave quick enough, there will still be some defenses set but the dragon is weakened so beating on it enough may just kill it. If the Dragon has half a dozen rounds it will use items to heal itself and even boost itself, (though it would already have used some boosting items.) This is the real fight.

[mucco]

Someone here suggested dragons are elible for epic feats by nature of having more than 20 hit dice. I don't really think they are.

A dragon's BAB equals its number of dragon hit dice. A red Great Wyrm has a BAB of +40. If it were following epic rules, it would have a BAB of +20 and EAB of +10. But it is NOT epic.

So I start wondering, where would class level stacking begin to factor in here? At what point are they actually epic? Does an very old red abjurant champion get full BAB benefit from its abjurant champion levels?

I went to check out and it turns out they are eligible, but not for having more than 20 HD. Draconomicon states that any Old or older dragon is "eligible for taking epic feats". Doesn't say much else.

[candycorn]

Firstly: I wouldn't recommend a game of whack-a-mole. Not with a red. Reds are haughty, arrogant creatures. The plan will be good, but it will suppose that it is the nastiest thing that exists, except for possibly other dragons.

Here are the elements of my recommended lair.

1) Inhospitable ground terrain. The ground should be difficult terrain... at best. ledges, lava, crevasses, all of this should be used. The dragon can glide from perch to perch, using reach and mobility limitation effects to keep the party in check.

2) Scintillating Scales = Decent AC.

3) Protection from Good = No dominate/charm. It's already immune to paralysis.

4) Contingency + Dimension Door = Quick Escape plan regroup option, for the second ambush.

5) The first line of defense any dragon has is living in an inaccessible and hostile area. This ensures that sheep don't set off the Glyphs of Spiky doom.

6) If the dragon is luring enemies somewhere, it will NOT be where its treasure is. It may be superior to pinkskins, but other dragons can follow those clues too.

7) Treasure in the "trap area" should be an illusion, or stuff that looks nice, but is relatively worthless (glass gems, etc).

8) Escape plan for other dragons: A lava pool that leads down a chute to another pool, at least 600 feet away.

9) Entryway should be collapsible. A 50 foot long shaft that can be caved in is great. This traps lesser groups for days. Greater groups? Well, they can teleport... But it still costs resources.

10) To sneak attack, they have to be able to reach vulnerable points. Unless that's an eye, or they have a weapon with a 4 foot blade, the answer is no. This thing has a hide 2.5 feet thick. Most longswords will penetrate about as much as a thorn would a human.

11) It should arrange for enemies to get misinformation. Suggestion (SLA) in nearby towns is a great tool to deliver this.

12) Iconic Feat selection:

Practiced Spellcaster
Multiattack
Power Attack
Flyby Attack (great with breath weapons)
Awaken Spell Resistance (Draconomicon) x3 - SR 41.
Clinging Breath (Draconomicon) - Breath sticks to the ground, the walls, people...
Heighten Breath (Draconomicon) - +10 to Breath Weapon DC
Improved Bull Rush
Shock Wave (Draconomicon) - Bull rush (Bonus +31 or more) vs every creature within 185 feet. structures and objects take 1d6+15 damage.
Fast Healing (Draconomicon) - Fast Healing 3 lets it recover from near death in a half hour. If the party retreats, they'll have to start their work from scratch.

Righteous Might adds +6 to shockwave, increases damage, grapple checks, breath weapon range, etc.

SR 41 means spells will bounce right off it, unless they're very powerful, or bypass SR. A level 20 caster will have to have spell penetration to have a shot. Even Assay Spell resistance only lowers it to a coin toss.

[Jack_Simth]

Lair! Reds are immune to fire. Use this to your advantage. Put that guy in a smoldering volcano, complete with pools of lava, and a 40-50 foot ceiling.No no no... take Energy Immunity as a spell known, as well as Disguise Self, and make yourself seem a different color. Always fun when the White Dragon (Disguise Self) that's demonstrated as Immune to cold (Energy Immunity) and has been seen breathing ice (Cone of Cold spell) turns out to be completely immune to fire, even after getting Disjoined.

[Boci]

No no no... take Energy Immunity as a spell known, as well as Disguise Self, and make yourself seem a different color. Always fun when the White Dragon (Disguise Self) that's demonstrated as Immune to cold (Energy Immunity) and has been seen breathing ice (Cone of Cold spell) turns out to be completely immune to fire, even after getting Disjoined.

After its been disjoined, won't it be Red?

[Jack_Simth]

After its been disjoined, won't it be Red?
Yes. And they'll have prepared for a beast that's vulnerable to Fire. That's the point.

[Boci]

Yes. And they'll have prepared for a beast that's vulnerable to Fire. That's the point.

Okay, I thought you were saying players would be wondering why the disjoined white dragon was still immune to fire. Which makes giving the dragon ranks in disguise tempting.

[Taelas]

10) To sneak attack, they have to be able to reach vulnerable points. Unless that's an eye, or they have a weapon with a 4 foot blade, the answer is no. This thing has a hide 2.5 feet thick. Most longswords will penetrate about as much as a thorn would a human.

Which is represented by their enormously high natural armor bonus. Denying rogues SA is incredibly petty, and not at all by the rules. :smallconfused:

[Boci]

Which is represented by their enormously high natural armor bonus. Denying rogues SA is incredibly petty, and not at all by the rules. :smallconfused:

There is one line in the rules that supports this. No guidelines, no example, just "you must be able to reach the creature's vital organs". I personally think it was either intended as meaningless fluff or a reference to a rule that was removed.

[Talya]

Which is represented by their enormously high natural armor bonus.

...and by ridiculously high hit point totals when they do manage to hit.

[Jack_Simth]

There is one line in the rules that supports this. No guidelines, no example, just "you must be able to reach the creature's vital organs". I personally think it was either intended as meaningless fluff or a reference to a rule that was removed.

It might be intended to deal with the circumstance of a critter with Reach being out of range of the rogue, and the rogue trying to ready actions to hit the beast's arms when the beast attacks....

[CTrees]

There is one line in the rules that supports this. No guidelines, no example, just "you must be able to reach the creature's vital organs". I personally think it was either intended as meaningless fluff or a reference to a rule that was removed.

Also: 3.5 D&D does nor have facing. How are you (the DM) to say the rogue isn't near the dragon's eyes? Or whatever - stomach will have thinner hide, the dragon has joints, a blade could be shoved between chinks in the scales, etc.

If I were a rogue and was denied my SA, against RAW, by similar reasoning, i'd have a serious, serious problem with that.

[SowZ]

Also: 3.5 D&D does nor have facing. How are you (the DM) to say the rogue isn't near the dragon's eyes? Or whatever - stomach will have thinner hide, the dragon has joints, a blade could be shoved between chinks in the scales, etc.

If I were a rogue and was denied my SA, against RAW, by similar reasoning, i'd have a serious, serious problem with that.

What do you mean 3.5 D&D doesn't have facing?

[Boci]

It might be intended to deal with the circumstance of a critter with Reach being out of range of the rogue, and the rogue trying to ready actions to hit the beast's arms when the beast attacks....

Possibly. Although as a DM I would allow that. The rogue is giving up his full atatck, and if the creature is using his natural reach than some part of its body is within striking distance for the rogue. Depending on the exact creature I might give it a chance to ignore the SA.


What do you mean 3.5 D&D doesn't have facing?


No rules for which direction you are facing in combat.

[Taelas]

What do you mean 3.5 D&D doesn't have facing?

A creature is not considered to be turned in any given direction at any given time -- you cannot, for example, attack someone in the back.

[TroubleBrewing]

Yeah, this dragon is most definitely going to be able to be sneak-attacked. Unless I can find a way to give it Heavy Fortification...

[Boci]

Yeah, this dragon is most definitely going to be able to be sneak-attacked. Unless I can find a way to give it Heavy Fortification...

There's a gem in Draconium that does just that.

[Jack_Simth]

Yeah, this dragon is most definitely going to be able to be sneak-attacked. Unless I can find a way to give it Heavy Fortification...
Blur. Any concealment negates Sneak Attack.

[candycorn]

Also: 3.5 D&D does nor have facing. How are you (the DM) to say the rogue isn't near the dragon's eyes? Or whatever - stomach will have thinner hide, the dragon has joints, a blade could be shoved between chinks in the scales, etc.

If I were a rogue and was denied my SA, against RAW, by similar reasoning, i'd have a serious, serious problem with that.

And you'd be welcome to have such a problem. However, if a 3 foot tall rogue is trying to hit a creature's vitals with a shortsword, and that creature's legs hold its body 10 feet off the ground, there's going to need to be some serious acrobatics to reach vital organs.

The rules state that YOU need to reach vital organs.
Not that you can assume the dragon will oblige by bringing the appropriate part nearby.

The whole point of sneak attack is CHOOSING your target. If you're restricted to ankle or claw, you're not really choosing.

The rule there depends on common sense. Range attack? Sure, pick your target. Melee? If you aren't reaching past a shin, you aren't hitting a vital organ.

[Runestar]

Then come up with your fluff as to how you are able to sneak the dragon's vitals?

For example, as the dragon swoops by to bite the rogue with its jaws, the rogue rolls to one side, and slices a clean wound on the dragon's exposed mouth as it dives past.

The lack of clarification of just what reaching one's vitals mean implies that the designers did not intend for this to limit a rogue's sneak attack.

[candycorn]

Then come up with your fluff as to how you are able to sneak the dragon's vitals?

For example, as the dragon swoops by to bite the rogue with its jaws, the rogue rolls to one side, and slices a clean wound on the dragon's exposed mouth as it dives past.

The lack of clarification of just what reaching one's vitals mean implies that the designers did not intend for this to limit a rogue's sneak attack.

The inclusion of the restrictive sentence decisively means that design intent was that rogues must reach vital organs to sneak attack.

And that's not fluff. That's describing a ready action to hit when it attacks. What happens if the dragon never did try to bite the rogue with its jaws? Does the dragon mystically do this every time the rogue needs to make an attack roll? At what point is this the stupidest creature in existence?

In other words, if you need to control the actions of everything else in the universe, for the sake of handwaving away a rule you don't personally like? Perhaps you're exaggerating your definition of "implies" in your above statement.

Fluff is reflavoring of things that have no mechanical impact. If you are using fluff to justify a mechanic? IT IS NOT FLUFF. It is homebrew.

Draconomicon goes into a great deal of detail on dragon physiology.
"Vital" - necessary
Organs - duh.

Is a tongue a vital organ? Nope.

You're looking for "kidney" "heart" "lung". Things like that.

See? What you called a sneak attack? Most people refer to as an ordinary, everyday, run of the mill successful attack.

[TroubleBrewing]

Tired of this discussion. If they have a Rogue, no matter how small he or she is, they will be able to sneak attack the dragon, provided they meet the usual requisite conditions.

I feel that sentence is fluff. If you wish to treat it as crunch, feel free.

Moving on. I'm still sort of wondering how I should approach wealth for her. My biggest concern is the last item on the list: Should I roll the treasure first, and then choose items that most benefit her?

[Boci]

Is a tongue a vital organ? Nope.

Most creatures could die pretty quickly from a wound to the tongue, so yes it is a vital organ. Blus there are blood vessel, neural points, ect.

2nd edition had similar rules, but it actually dedicated a whole paragraph to when a rogue could and could not back stab.



Fluff is reflavoring of things that have no mechanical impact. If you are using fluff to justify a mechanic? IT IS NOT FLUFF. It is homebrew.

That's funny. You know what I call taking a single sentance with zero mention of how to mechanically implement it and then proceeding to do so, supplying the missing information yourself? Homebrewing.

[candycorn]

Most creatures could die pretty quickly from a wound to the tongue, so yes it is a vital organ. Blus there are blood vessel, neural points, ect.

2nd edition had similar rules, but it actually dedicated a whole paragraph to when a rogue could and could not back stab.



That's funny. You know what I call taking a single sentance with zero mention of how to mechanically implement it and then proceeding to do so, supplying the missing information yourself? Homebrewing.

Most creatures die from a 12 pound axe to the chest, also, but interestingly, that doesn't automatically qualify as a sneak attack. Hm. So much for THAT line of logic.

And no, it's not homebrewing. The game states that things which are not defined generally follow real world. Taking the words "vital organs" and applying the standard definition to it, utilizing the height/vertical reach tables from the rules, you can determine how high a character can reach. This is what's known as "RAW with common sense application to fill the gaps, rather than handwavium of rules text that you don't personally like".

You say that text that's not fully explained in every detail should be ignored. Congratulations, 80% of every book doesn't exist. After all, if we must make a single interpretation as to the meaning of text, throw it out, because if they didn't go into excruciating detail, it's so OBVIOUS that they didn't really want it there at all... You know, even though they put it there.

Not that it's important. Sneak attack will generally only get 1 attack per round off (without flanking) at best. Even 11d6+20 isn't gonna make a serious dent in the thing. Worrying about sneak attack is.. well, it's a lot like Billy the Kid worrying about a cap gun.

Now, moving on.

I generally roll treasure, then calculate the total value of that rolled treasure, assign 40% to coins and valuable nonmagical items, and the remainder of that total value, I decide what items to equip it with. This provides a base guideline for the creature's wealth, while allowing customization.

[Boci]

Most creatures die from a 12 pound axe to the chest, also, but interestingly, that doesn't automatically qualify as a sneak attack. Hm. So much for THAT line of logic.

The weapon does not need to be a 12 pound axe for a tongue wound to kill you, so if you want to dismiss "THAT line of logic", you will need to try a bit harder.


And no, it's not homebrewing. The game states that things which are not defined generally follow real world. Taking the words "vital organs"

So they've been defined? If not, how can there be any concrete rules about them?



utilizing the height/vertical reach tables from the rules, you can determine how high a character can reach. This is what's known as "RAW with common sense application to fill the gaps, rather than handwavium of rules text that you don't personally like".

The fact that vital organs are not defined strikes me as not a gap so much as a gaping chasm. Whose to say arteries aren't vital organs?


You say that text that's not fully explained in every detail should be ignored. Congratulations, 80% of every book doesn't exist. After all, if we must make a single interpretation as to the meaning of text, throw it out, because if they didn't go into excruciating detail, it's so OBVIOUS that they didn't really want it there at all... You know, even though they put it there.

I require more than 1 sentance, or a vague idea of what they are talking about, not "excruciating detail". If they had defined vital organs I would believe what you are saying is RAW:

[candycorn]

The weapon does not need to be a 12 pound axe for a tongue wound to kill you, so if you want to dismiss "THAT line of logic", you will need to try a bit harder.

So they've been defined? If not, how can there be any concrete rules about them?

The fact that vital organs are not defined strikes me as not a gap so much as a gaping chasm. Whose to say arteries aren't vital organs?

I require more than 1 sentance, or a vague idea of what they are talking about, not "excruciating detail". If they had defined vital organs I would believe what you are saying is RAW:
You say that "This ability cannot be used in this situation" is fluff; i.e. descriptive text, that is therefore meaningless... Much like the text about discernable anatomy, wizards needing free hands to cast spells (after all, free hands aren't a defined game term, so that must be fluff).

Fluff is text with no mechanical application. It is purely descriptive. If you are using something without mechanical application to justify a stance on a mechanic, you are not grasping what fluff is.

Ability X cannot be used in situation Y. That's not fluff. That is a mechanical restriction. It may not be fully defined, but it still exists. Ruling this to be "doesn't apply ever" is ignoring a restriction, just as if you ignored a requirement for a feat or prestige class.

The DM for this game is ruling it otherwise, so, it is otherwise for this game. But it must be interpreted by each and every DM that runs a game, whether the 3 foot halfling with a dagger can sneak-stabby the giblets of a 50 foot tall giant, who doesn't get anything but a very large club within 10 feet of the thing... well, and its toes.

In other words, the default isn't "ignore it, it doesn't matter". The default is, "interpret what situations this restriction applies to." To say otherwise is to erase rules, and try to call it RAW. That's not.

EDIT: Who's to say arteries aren't vital organs? That makes as much sense as "Who's to say leather armor isn't a hafted weapon".

Arteries aren't organs, therefore they cannot be vital organs.

[Boci]

You say that "This ability cannot be used in this situation" is fluff; i.e. descriptive text, that is therefore meaningless...

Yes, its meaningless because it is too vague to be a rule.


Much like the text about discernable anatomy, wizards needing free hands to cast spells (after all, free hands aren't a defined game term, so that must be fluff).

No, these are clear cut.


In other words, the default isn't "ignore it, it doesn't matter". The default is, "interpret what situations this restriction applies to."

And we are given nothing with which to do this.


EDIT: Who's to say arteries aren't vital organs? That makes as much sense as "Who's to say leather armor isn't a hafted weapon".

Arteries aren't organs, therefore they cannot be vital organs.

The skin is a vital organ. Therefor, I'm guessing WoTC did not use medical term "organ". Or hell, maybe they did. Huray, Rogue can SA anything if I can reach the skin.

Besdies, earlier you were talking about RAW + common sense. To me, common sense says that whilst an artery isn't a vital organ, getting hit there is just if not more dangerous. So arteries should be valid targets to get SA. What does your common says say? Arteries are not organs therefor the creature is magically protected from extra damage?

[Jack_Simth]

And that's not fluff. That's describing a ready action to hit when it attacks. What happens if the dragon never did try to bite the rogue with its jaws? Does the dragon mystically do this every time the rogue needs to make an attack roll? At what point is this the stupidest creature in existence?
Actually, it could be fluff, using the ad-hock simultaneous bit listed in the DMG.

[jguy]

I'd say roll for treasure first and see how much gold you have to work with. Buy anything that seems reasonable to you with that gold or switch out magic items you roll up for something more useful to the dragon.

[mucco]

*cough* let's bring into this debate Colossal creatures one square within a Solid Fog who can only move 5 ft. *cough*

Buying some armor/shield +1 of Heavy Fortification might be an ok expense - it's only like 36k. Buckler?

[Hanuman]

Seeing as my fall-to-spring gaming group comes online at the end of this month, I'm currently in the planning stages for my next campaign. The campaign is going to start at level 10 and progress until 20, when they'll meet the BBEG. I'm restricting players to Tier 3 and 2 classes only, with a maximum of 4 dipped levels in lower-Tier classes. (I'm just not talented enough to deal with Tier 1's in high-ish optimization level games yet.)

The BBEG for said campaign is a Very Old Red Dragon, and she needs a good ol' Playground-style optimization treatment. I'm already planning on giving her max HP per HD, as that worked mahhhhvelously on my last big bad (see "Big Bad Needs More Health" thread for more information), and I like long, exciting fights.

I'm working out the specifics for her lair as we speak, but optimizing a lair is easy; big open space, no hiding places. Strafe with breath weapon until all the food stops moving, collect your winnings at the door.

I'm most concerned with feat and spell selection. As she has 31HD, she'll have 11 feats and CL 13. I'm reading through Draconomicon right now just as required reading, and it's proving informative. As this thread progresses, I'll keep the playground up to date on my choices as per the critter goes, and hopefully, at the end of it, I'll be able to provide a full breakdown of her abilities and such. (Perhaps a stat block? WHO KNOWS! Stay tuned!)

Tips:

Dragons are normally fairly fragile, they have 2 big weakness-- their touch ac and their dexterity score. Obviously an arcane caster can take one down in a single round.

DnD ends at level 17 generally, have them at least come within the home stretch by then, and you should generally hope to end by then. Generally DnD starts better at 4, but can work nicely at 1 depending on the group.

The BBEG should be unique, for instance the dragon could breathe time destruction so it creates temporal rifts in the air and anything it touches, the characters might then fall through those gaps and be in different time periods within the same place. A more traditional, but still equally epic battle would be a limited multi-force combat scenario, so you could have a small army (perhaps 1-3 platoons) and the dragon might have some allied forces too making the players have to blend in with the attack strategies making the combat far more complex, and very cinematic.

[Bobbis]

Upgrading the beastie to a wyrm seems like a mistake to me. A CR 21 is normally a fair fight against a level 20 party, but you're forgetting that it's going to be optimized (hence the thread).

In actuality, taking all of this optimization into account a wyrm would probably utterly destroy a Teir 2-3 party, especially if the combat is sprung on them without prep specifically for it.

A very old red dragon, optimized as per the thread, will probably give you the combat you want your players to have. I guess the other question is how optimize-y are your players?

[candycorn]

Yes, its meaningless because it is too vague to be a rule.

No, these are clear cut.They are clear cut because you interpret them to be so.

If you interpreted "vital organs" to be "organs who, when stabbed, would cause damage greater than the typical wound"... and "can reach" to be "the rogue's vertical reach, as outlined in the SRD, includes those areas of the creature in question". It's largely a size limiter, much like grappling has them, mounted combat, swallow whole, etc etc. D&D has a long record that consistently uses size as a protection versus special attacks.

Oh look, utilizing existing game resources outlining "reach" and just a smidge of common sense, we can easily figure that stuff out.

And we are given nothing with which to do this.



The skin is a vital organ. Therefor, I'm guessing WoTC did not use medical term "organ". Or hell, maybe they did. Huray, Rogue can SA anything if I can reach the skin.While the skin, as an entirety, is vital, injuries to small portions of it aren't life threatening; such as, say, a heart or lung would be. This is where interpreting the term "vital" comes into play.



Besdies, earlier you were talking about RAW + common sense. To me, common sense says that whilst an artery isn't a vital organ, getting hit there is just if not more dangerous. So arteries should be valid targets to get SA. What does your common says say? Arteries are not organs therefor the creature is magically protected from extra damage?
My common sense tells me that people with 9 inch blades aren't going to get to the arteries of something with an 18 inch thick hide. This is why you don't use pocket knives to hunt Rhinoceri. That's what my common sense tells me. Arteries aren't "targeted" for sneak attack, any more than a "liver" is. The restriction is that you must be able to reach the vital organs of a creature to sneak attack. Whether you can reach a portion of the body with an artery is irrelevant to that rule. It's like, if I were talking about the limitations of bicycles, and you start asking about what happens when cars run out of gas.

Arms and legs are not vital organs. And while "as the dragon reaches for you, you stab it in the eye, digging around at the soft meaty bits behind it" is perfectly justified... It relies on the dragon reaching for you. Therefore, it's using a ready action (acting when a prescribed condition is met) to try to get a sneak attack. At the very least, it's a judgement call.

That's what your fluff described.

Not, "the rogue flanked the target, and machine-gun stabbed the creature for a half dozen sneak attacks". This is WHY ranged sneak attacks are generally better than melee. Less restrictions.

If this hypothetical rogue has flight by level 20 (and s/he really should), it's a moot point. Flying creatures have an easier time getting up to those places. If s/he doesn't? Then really, there shouldn't be sneak attacks without ready actions.


Actually, it could be fluff, using the ad-hock simultaneous bit listed in the DMG.
If the dragon is actually going for the rogue that round, sure. Otherwise, not so much. That's where the "judgement call" section above comes in. If anything, this just underscores the importance of flight at higher levels.

[Boci]

They are clear cut because you interpret them to be so.

If you interpreted "vital organs" to be "organs who, when stabbed, would cause damage greater than the typical wound"... and "can reach" to be "the rogue's vertical reach, as outlined in the SRD, includes those areas of the creature in question". It's largely a size limiter, much like grappling has them, mounted combat, swallow whole, etc etc.

So why isn't size mentioned?


D&D has a long record that consistently uses size as a protection versus special attacks.

And yet 3.5, the edition that aimed to make the rules more clear has less guidelines on how to do this than previous ones.


Oh look, utilizing existing game resources outlining "reach" and just a smidge of common sense, we can easily figure that stuff out.

So what rules do I need to quote to explain to someone how much reach their medium rogue needs to sneak attack as huge dragon?


While the skin, as an entirety, is vital, injuries to small portions of it aren't life threatening; such as, say, a heart or lung would be. This is where interpreting the term "vital" comes into play.

I dunno, I could see a strike that scrabs a portion of skin of as being a SA. It won't kill you, but then neither will 10d6 against a dragon with 300+ hp.


My common sense tells me that people with 9 inch blades aren't going to get to the arteries of something with an 18 inch thick hide.

Where does it say a dragon has 18 inch thick hide?


This is why you don't use pocket knives to hunt Rhinoceri.

I am pretty sure that if I was trained at it, I could cause serious damage to a rinausurous with a combat knife.


That's what my common sense tells me. Arteries aren't "targeted" for sneak attack, any more than a "liver" is. The restriction is that you must be able to reach the vital organs of a creature to sneak attack. Whether you can reach a portion of the body with an artery is irrelevant to that rule. It's like, if I were talking about the limitations of bicycles, and you start asking about what happens when cars run out of gas.

No, whether or not arteries are in reach is highly relevant since a hit artery should be a valid source for sneak attack damage, unless the fact that its not an organ magically protects the creature.


Arms and legs are not vital organs.

So what happens if a rogue targets an artery? And don't say they can't, because then dow the hell do they target vital organs?

[Circle of Life]

As fascinating as this discussion is with regards to sneak attacking arteries, don't you two think it would be better off in another thread? The OP already made his feelings on the subject rather clear, and this is turning into a bit of a derailment right now.

[TroubleBrewing]

Heck, I'll make the thread. It's going to be titled "Can a Tiny-Sized Rogue Sneak Attack a Colossal Creature?"

[EagleWiz]

Okay, I thought you were saying players would be wondering why the disjoined white dragon was still immune to fire. Which makes giving the dragon ranks in disguise tempting.

This. A red dragon using epic level disguise skill to look like a white dragon would be almost imposible to detect as the real thing.

[candycorn]

So why isn't size mentioned?
Hm. And here I thought that being unable to reach something would be blindingly obvious to be a size issue. I guess I may have been the butt of one too many short jokes, when it comes to reaching the cereal on the top shelf.

And yet 3.5, the edition that aimed to make the rules more clear has less guidelines on how to do this than previous ones.And yet, the rule (not guideline. Guidelines are stated as such, as in the Magic Item Cost Estimation section) is still there, no matter how you try to talk it away.


So what rules do I need to quote to explain to someone how much reach their medium rogue needs to sneak attack as huge dragon?

The starting rule would likely be the one we're discussing. Add in rules for vertical reach (see Jump skill in the SRD), to start. From there, look at Draconomicon, p.51 (which outlines the general dimensions of a red dragon).

Combine with the accompanying image, and one would see that the vitals shown on a red begin at half the standing height of the dragon. For a huge red dragon, that would be about 6 feet, for a gargantuan (such as a wyrm, the example used), it would be 8 feet, and for a colossal (such as a wyrm under the effects of Righteous Might), it would be 11 feet.

Thus, a character of medium size could successfully reach the vitals of all but the largest red dragons (up to gargantuan, with their 8 feet of vertical reach, per the SRD), and likely even a colossal (with a reach weapon).

A character of small size, with a vertical reach of 4 feet, would need some form of flight, or reach, or the like, to do so.

Smaller size, while it certainly helps one hide, does have the disadvantage of requiring a stepstool to get to the top shelf of the cupboard.

I dunno, I could see a strike that scrabs a portion of skin of as being a SA. It won't kill you, but then neither will 10d6 against a dragon with 300+ hp.Look at sneak attack at level 1. A single sword stab (1d6+1) is unlikely to kill an NPC fighter (4.5 damage vs 7 average HP). A single sneak attack (2d6+1) is very likely (8 damage vs 7 average HP). Does this accurately portray scabbing the skin? No. It portrays a bleeding lung wound, that instantly incapacitates.

I am pretty sure that if I was trained at it, I could cause serious damage to a rinausurous with a combat knife.Which would have some form of relevance if I had said combat knife. I said pocket knife, as in, whip out the blade of that swiss army. A combat knife is about the size of a D&D dagger. Comparing a smaller blade vs a large, thick hide creature is closely analgous to comparing a dagger vs a gargantuan creature. If you want to compare with a combat knife, the comparative target would be a Sperm Whale.


No, whether or not arteries are in reach is highly relevant since a hit artery should be a valid source for sneak attack damage, unless the fact that its not an organ magically protects the creature.No, the fact that sneak attacks don't list what they target. They only apply certain restrictions (must have a discernable anatomy, target must be flat footed or flanked, sneak attacker must be able to reach a vital organ), and the ability functions normally within those restrictions. No magic involved. The creature could be one giant artery; doesn't matter. The rules don't impose any restrictions, limitations, or added benefits based on the circulatory system (except for parts of it which are organs).

It doesn't work for the same reason that Charm Person doesn't work on dogs. Rules don't provide for any interaction with arteries. Only vital organs. If you want to say an artery was hit, fine. Peachy. As long as you fulfill those restrictions above (target has a discernable anatomy, target must be flat footed or flanked, sneak attacker must be able to reach a vital organ), fluff it however you like. Note, the fluff doesn't impact the mechanic in any way. That's what makes it fluff.


So what happens if a rogue targets an artery? And don't say they can't, because then dow the hell do they target vital organs?
They don't target vital organs. They don't target arteries. 3.x did away with called shots. They target CHARACTERS, and apply a SPECIAL ABILITY to that. No body part targeting at all. Sneak attack takes all that into account, provided you follow the rules... ALL of the rules... for the ability.


Heck, I'll make the thread. It's going to be titled "Can a Tiny-Sized Rogue Sneak Attack a Colossal Creature?"
And the answer will always be: "yes, provided all the requirements for sneak attacking are met".

[TroubleBrewing]

There's a thread for this discussion.

This is not that thread. This has gotten way, way off topic.

[candycorn]

A good guideline for dragon wealth:

They get triple standard. (SRD, Dragon Entry)

Standard wealth for a CR 24 encounter is the value of a CR 20 + 6 major magic items (DMG, table 3-5).

The Value of a CR 20 is 80,000 gp. (DMG, Table 3-3)

Therefore, the dragon should have about 240,000 gp of stuff, +18 major magic items.

If you're assigning value to the magic items, the DMG assigns an average value of 40,000 gp to a major magic item. (DMG, Table 3-4)

Therefore, the average CR 24 Red Dragon will have a hoard that is valued approximately at 960,000 gp, by the book. If you're customizing the hoard, use that as your baseline, plus or minus a bit.

I'd place a large portion of the wealth in coin, gem, and artwork (maybe 120,000 gp or so, to reflect half the value of the treasure that isn't bonus major magic items). That would leave 840,000gp for actual customizable wealth, and likely, I would have an additional 10% (84,000 gp) in lair defenses that are not feasible for looting (spell effects, minions, etc).

That'll give a solid dragon hoard.

[averagejoe]

There's a thread for this discussion.

This is not that thread. This has gotten way, way off topic.

The Mod They Call Me: What he said. Please keep this thread on topic.