Metamagic - alternative to +spell level

[rgd20]

I'm currently playing an abjurer in a PF campaign and am running out of ideas for my feats. I hate how metamagic uses up higher level slots, and thus don't want to take the feats. My DM has even reduced the cost of a few of them but still it rankles.

I don't want to change how it works for this game - I've turned my char into a magic item factory, which make all the other chars like me (CHA was a dump stat, so bribery helps :smallsmile:)

I'm more wondering for future campaigns (which I might run)

So:

The proposal is that we remove the + level requirement, and replace it with two restrictions:

1) each feat allows only a certain numer of spells to be metamagiced per day, determined by the relevant casting stat

2) without epic magic each feat can only affect a maximum spell level (no quickened Time Stops)

eg

Maximize Spell(metamagic)

Your spells have the maximum possible effect.

Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of a spell modified by this feat are maximized. Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables.

You may apply this feat to 0+Casting ability modifier (INT for wizards/CHA for Bards/WIS for clerics)Spells per day

The Highest level spell that may be modified in such a manner is level 6


is 0 + modifier too harsh/lax? is this going to break in unforseen ways? Am I just whining too much about the rules as they stand?

Help me people!

Bob

[Kefkafreak]

That's why the Sudden metamagic feats (and rods) exist.

Edit: Oh, I just realized you're talking about PF. I don't know then.

[rgd20]

They still exist in PF - my char has one - and since they can be made in PF without having the Metamagic feet in question, it makes the Feats even less attractive.

I was trying to make the feats themselves desirable, to make feat choice more of a struggle.

At 7th I'm seriously considering Leadership (with 9 cha) rather than a metamagic.

[ericgrau]

I think you're underestimating it's power a great deal. Metamagic is already very much worth it, even at the higher spell level. So you have to make sure it doesn't get out of hand. I think sudden metamagic is once per day. So I'd go with 1/day regardless of your int modifier.

Alternatively you could say that the spell level doesn't go up, but the level it would be at can't be higher than the highest level spell you can cast. That's still a bit powerful so it needs to be limited, maybe to 3/day.

Or you could simply buy a metamagic rod. A lesser metamagic rod of extend spell is only 3,000 gp (unless PF changed it) and it's great for extending all your level 1-3 abjurer buffs.

[kamikasei]

You might consider something like 3.5 metapsionics.

a) Take a level X spell.
b) Apply a +Y metamagic effect. X+Y cannot be higher than the highest level spell you can cast.
c) Burn a Y-level spell (or lower-level spells totalling Y) to cast the metamagiced spell from a X-level slot.
d) Either limit this to a certain number of times per day - which basically makes it Sudden Metamagic, but paying with lower-level spells instead of having to take the original metamagic feat first and then the Sudden version - or limit it with "focus", which will act pretty much exactly like psionic focus, and limit you to one metamagic effect per spell.

[Retech]

It's the same.

I think they have even better metamagic in Pathfinder, because even though they don't have DMM or Persist anymore, the new Persist makes the opponent have to SAVE TWICE, for only +1 metamagic adjustment.

[ericgrau]

+2, but still worth it. I think it'd be worth it at +4, as you have about the same probability of success as +4 heighten. But then you don't have the versatility of heighten spell. So +3 would be worth it I think. It's pretty darn good.

Ya look through the advanced player's guide metamagic. If you take a normal unchanged feat you'll be pretty well off.

[Cog]

I was trying to make the feats themselves desirable, to make feat choice more of a struggle.
That's a sign that the feats are well-made already. Metamagic is plenty powerful, but you don't feel that you automatically have to take it; it's useful but not required.


At 7th I'm seriously considering Leadership (with 9 cha) rather than a metamagic.
Leadership is generally considered an absurdly powerful feat. and at a glance I don't see anything that PF has changed about that. A lower cohort level doesn't mean much stacked against a whole new set of free actions. That the metamagic is less tempting doesn't say anything bad about the metamagic.

[rgd20]

Ah so I was just whining :smallbiggrin:

thanks!

[ericgrau]

It's hard to use metamagic on abjurations, though, outside of extend spell which you can get in magic item form. You only need it for low level spells anyway so you can get the cheap lesser rod. Look through your other school spells and see which of them could benefit from metamagic.

[Eldariel]

Pathfinder in particular does have many prohibitively expensive metamagics. Most of the new metamagic feats and the holdovers from PHB not named Empower, Maximize, Extend or Quicken Spell are largely too expensive.

Giving them slightly stronger effects or making them less expensive would be desirable. There's also a design flaw behind Empower and Maximize: They directly compete with higher level spells in terms of effect. That is, do you cast a higher level version of the same spell, or do you cast a metamagicked version?

This has the unfortunate effect of either the Metamagic version being better or the higher level spell being better; in latter the Metamagic is never worth using and in the former the Metamagic basically replaces the higher level spell. Especially egregious example is Energy Drain, a 9th level spell, which is significantly weaker than Empowered Maximized Enervation.


Look at the successful Metamagic Feats from 3.5; they all specialize and do something you couldn't do otherwise. Metamagic people actually use in 3.5 (outside stupidity):
+0
Invisible Spell
Energy Substitution
Born of Three Thunders

+1
Extend Spell
Sculpt Spell
Imbue Summoning
Rapid Spell

+2
Reach Spell
Split Ray
Ocular Spell

+3
Chain Spell
Delay Spell
Repeat Spell

+4
Quicken Spell
Twin Spell

+6
Persistent Spell


This is the bunch of feats I would and have used without metamagic reducers outside ridiculousness (I believe we can all agree that as written, Sanctum Spell is stupid, Alternate Source Spell is only good if you can abuse it and so on).


There's a very clear pattern here; all cool utility is +1 or +0. That's the kind of price you can generally afford to pay for something cool. Sculpting spells is cool. It's not much more powerful but it's more versatile. Born of Three Thunders is awesome but with a drawback. Invisible Spell is cool.

Majority of +1s are not worth adding and they should almost be +0 with some catch; Silent Spell, Still Spell and company are too niché to really use outside spontaneous casters and even there it's a very questionable decision to pick them up. I'm taking this from the perspective of a preparing caster, by the way; I feel metamagic should be good enough for it to be worth preparing occasionally if you do invest a feat in it.


The +2 is a mixed bag of particularly powerful effects: Split Ray is borderline broken on the few spells it works on, balanced by the fact that there's indeed very few spells it actually works properly on; Reach Spell is rather key on some combinations of metamagic to reach the desired result, should probably be +1 at most for its default use to be worth it. And Ocular Spell...well, it actually falls under the same header as the +3s worth taking.


Now, let's look at the +3s and highers. They all share one very, very important quality: They break action economy. Repeating Spell gets you free spell next round. Chain Spell can get you up to Caster Level extra "spells" this round. Delay Spell itself does very little except to setup surprises (hardly worth the +3 tag) but there's this spell called Time Stop and Delay Spell allows you to realize the potential action economy of Time Stop in any way you desire.

+4s have Twin Spell which unambiguously plain gives you an extra spell the same turn. Quicken Spell likewise allows you to cast an extra spell in the same turn; so what that it's much lower level, it's a second action.

Yes, I have Persisted spells for the iron price. Though practically all those spells are low level swift action 1 round duration spells (Sniper's Shot, Wraithstrike, Hunter's Eye, etc.) and thus their level cost is artificially decreased making Persisting them more worthwhile than with most spells.


The primary reason those metamagic are worth it is that no spells (ok, very few spells; Time Stop, Arcane Fusion, Celerity, Eyes of the Oracle + various Contingency-type defenses and that's about it) actually break action economy. It's something you can't really do with spells (and that's good). As is obvious, only things you can't do with spells are worth paying that many levels for.

Good Metamagic design would either change the system or simply put most of 'em at +0/+1 cost and come up with additional bonuses or restrictions to make it worth it. Even most of these metamagics are primarily used with metamagic reducers to reach ridiculousness like proper Blaster Sorcerers and their 400+ unblockable damage a spell.

Metamagic reducers, at least as they exist now, really aren't a part of good metamagic design. Class features interacting with metamagic are fine but "-X levels to metamagic" is far too powerful an effect; if metamagic is designed to be worthwhile by itself, it'll be gamebreaking with metamagic reducers and if metamagic is designed to be weakish by itself, it'll only be usable with metamagic reducers (and it'll still be too strong with them, something 3.5 stands as a testament for).


Psionics did this much better. The extra currency of Psionic Focus allows for Psionics to drop the Metapsionics' costs quite low and the less rigid powerpoint system allows for more accurate customization of Metapsionic costs than the spellslot system in Vancian casting.

Older editions of D&D did Metamagic as "metaspells" you had to prepare in actual slots and then consume to cast a spell affected by that metamagic. This, of course, has the issue of effectively raising the maximum level of cap you can cast quite a bit (though restrictions could handle that). It also covers different design space, however; spells like Spell Enhancer already exist and that's basically all this kind of Metamagic is. A bunch of spells that can be combined with other spells to produce stronger spells (instead of modifying a spell for a different type of spell).

I can't help but imagine the best solution would be a different currency for paying for the metamagic cost altogether. Maybe some innate pool you could draw upon or some class features or whatever; the rigid Vancian system where each spell level is such a huge deal really doesn't lend itself well to spell level-based pricing, unless the effects from the metamagic are truly terrifyingly powerful (which I'm not sure is truly desirable).

[Salanmander]

Bravo Eldariel. That is the best analysis of the game effects of metamagic I have seen, and has probably permanently changed how I think about metamagic costs.

[Vassago]

There is an alternative Metamagic system I stumbled upon last night while looking through Unearthed Arcana that may be of some interest to you. It is the Daily Uses variant.

It can be found here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spontaneousMetamagic.htm#dailyUses

To summarize taking a metamagic feat allows you to use the metamagic ability 3/day on the fly without having to use a higher level spell slot or extend casting time.

The caveat is you can only use each metamagic 3/day, and you can not use it on high level spells. The level of the spell + metamagic level modifier can not be higher than the highest level of spell known.

[navar100]

I've felt the same way. I'm currently playing a Sorcerer where for roleplay purposes the Arcane Bloodline fit. It gives bonuses for using metamagic, so in order to be efficient and use the bloodline abilities, I'll be taking some meta magic feats. The feats also fit the character concept anyway, and eventually I'll be taking Craft Rod to make my own metamagic rods.

I'm only 5th level so haven't any experience using metamagic yet, but I'll give it a try. Because of spells I'm choosing very few spells can use the metamagics I'll be taking unless I decide to take Quicken Spell at some high level. Still, I do like the option of using them. They add spell versatility to the Sorceerr's limited spell selection.

I did once play the Divine Metamagic Persistent Spell cleric way back when before its CoDzilla fear aura was prevalent. I did get some good use out of Extend Spell. The effects were worth the slot. My favorite was Extend Heroes' Feast for 24 hour protection, and the Energy Immunity/Extend Energy Immunity trick was handy too. Ever present immunity to fire and electricity as my choices helped a lot.

Just because a spell is "low level" doesn't necessarily make it less useful as the character levels progress. Sometimes it's still the right spell for the job and metamagic helps to keep it relevant for the higher power level of high level play.

[Tvtyrant]

Why not make a metamagic pool, with points equal to the bonus provided by your casting stat? So a caster with 20 Int would have 5 points to use on metamagic a day, with the cost in points being half the normal cost in slots rounded up? So 2 points for Maximize pr Quicken, 1 point to Empower, or Extend.

[Saintheart]

One thought since I looked into Node Spellcasting and Metanode Magic from Champions of Ruin recently: basically, the higher class of node, the more levels of metamagic that the node can absorb (For example, a Class 2 node would allow you to cast Fell Drain'd spells at no increased level penalty since the node pays for the extra levels.) This seems a rather overlooked feat series for BBEGs or site-based caster opponents, since obviously the average adventuring PC isn't going to want to hang around the Node Of Ultimate Doomy Dooms just to be able to cast a Quickened version of a spell.

I wondered, then, maybe you could create a system of "ley lines" or points of power like that: magic works normally in most places, but no metamagic, except for along certain ley lines where it's at a reduced cost?

[Xtomjames]

There is a better alternative I feel, though it comes from an odd place. In the 3.5 Deities and Demigods book a Deity using Alter Reality who wants to apply metamagic feats must rest a number of rounds equal to the spell slot level increase used to buff the spell with the metamagic feat.

This could be applied to a character as an alternative. Instead of taking up spell slots that are higher, you can only take partial actions for a number of rounds equal to the higher spell slot that would normally be taken. You can stake which ever metamagic feats you want (if you have them) but you have to accept the cost of the lost actions.

For example; a level 10 Sorc with Height Spell and Maximize spell wants to cast fireball. He wants to make it a 9th level casting. So usually it would take a 9th level slot plus 3 levels higher a slot (so actually not possible). But with this alternative you'd cast the spell and then rest for 12 rounds (two minutes in game). So while you can do devastating damage or cure a lot of damage or what ever, you pay the price in only partial actions for a number of rounds.

[Salanmander]

There is a better alternative I feel, though it comes from an odd place. In the 3.5 Deities and Demigods book a Deity using Alter Reality who wants to apply metamagic feats must rest a number of rounds equal to the spell slot level increase used to buff the spell with the metamagic feat.

This could be applied to a character as an alternative. Instead of taking up spell slots that are higher, you can only take partial actions for a number of rounds equal to the higher spell slot that would normally be taken. You can stake which ever metamagic feats you want (if you have them) but you have to accept the cost of the lost actions.

For example; a level 10 Sorc with Height Spell and Maximize spell wants to cast fireball. He wants to make it a 9th level casting. So usually it would take a 9th level slot plus 3 levels higher a slot (so actually not possible). But with this alternative you'd cast the spell and then rest for 12 rounds (two minutes in game). So while you can do devastating damage or cure a lot of damage or what ever, you pay the price in only partial actions for a number of rounds.

That is far, far too expensive. If you use that method, the only viable use of metamagic becomes dumping all of your metamagic on your single most powerful spell in the first round of combat, and then not doing anything for the rest of combat. Not exactly an interesting playstyle.

[Retech]

Well that might buff low level healers with few spell slots and a lot of time on their hands. :smallbiggrin:

[Sengachi]

Here's how I did it in my PF campaign I'm DMing for right now. I made epic levels start at level 11. I reduced all of the prerequisites for epic feats by 10 levels and ad-hoc reduced all the other requirements. 20 is the max level for my campaign. I used 3.5 epic spells and feats with minor modifications where necessary. Metamagic feats are suddenly worthwhile because their user can get the Improved Metamagic feats. It makes each metamagic feat cost one level less. I altered the prereqs to Spellcraft Ranks 14 and 2 metamagic feats. We've been playing with it like this for a while now and everybody is fine with it. I know our caster loves, especially since he's a mystic theurge. Maybe you could try it out.

[ericgrau]

Silent, still and heighten are pretty good on sorcerers and other spontaneous casters. I recently used enlarge (or really PF's upgraded version, reach) on a shield other focused build.

Widen is the real black sheep, and maybe enlarge too. Most adventurers fight too few foes for it to be useful, or even on a small area spell you pick a large area spell instead of widening the small area spell. I mean against enough foes widen would be omgz quad damage but adventurers don't tend to fight those. Likewise battlemats don't tend to be large enough for enlarge. So really it's more a problem with game style than anything. I think if somebody made single-use metamagic rods for 1/30th the price of regular metamagic rods, I think those two feats would see wayyy more use in rod form. You'd hold onto the rod until the big army battle comes and lay down the big nukes. Imagine 40' radius fireballs (16 inches across on the battle mat) wiping out 20-200 enemy soldiers for a mere 467 gp.

...or you could change widen to +2 and enlarge to +0 and encourage their use that way. I don't think even the free enlarge would break things usually.

[Xtomjames]

That is far, far too expensive. If you use that method, the only viable use of metamagic becomes dumping all of your metamagic on your single most powerful spell in the first round of combat, and then not doing anything for the rest of combat. Not exactly an interesting playstyle.

Er...no it's not, I gave an extreme example. Let's say I had a 4th level Cleric wanting to maximize a heal spell. That's 3 rounds of partial actions rather than expending a higher level spell slot.

I know for a fact this works because I'm currently using this variant in a game right now for a 9th level character.

Unless you're not in a party and all of your actions need to count, this is a great way to change the cost of metamagic out. Especially because of the roles that most spellcasters take in an over all D&D group. Besides if we take my extreme example from above, 2 minutes isn't that bad, considering that you're dealing 60 points of damage there to everything in a 20 ft radius. If you were to use Spell Lattices as well you could do even more damage. (nearly 200) and only wait 2.2 minutes in game. 60 fire damage is enough to kill many creatures out right.

You just need to think through how you're going to use your spells, it's about tactics.

[dextercorvia]

There is a better alternative I feel, though it comes from an odd place. In the 3.5 Deities and Demigods book a Deity using Alter Reality who wants to apply metamagic feats must rest a number of rounds equal to the spell slot level increase used to buff the spell with the metamagic feat.

This could be applied to a character as an alternative. Instead of taking up spell slots that are higher, you can only take partial actions for a number of rounds equal to the higher spell slot that would normally be taken. You can stake which ever metamagic feats you want (if you have them) but you have to accept the cost of the lost actions.

For example; a level 10 Sorc with Height Spell and Maximize spell wants to cast fireball. He wants to make it a 9th level casting. So usually it would take a 9th level slot plus 3 levels higher a slot (so actually not possible). But with this alternative you'd cast the spell and then rest for 12 rounds (two minutes in game). So while you can do devastating damage or cure a lot of damage or what ever, you pay the price in only partial actions for a number of rounds.

By partial action, I assume you mean that they may only make a Standard or Move in those rounds?

The problem with this variant is that Extend and Persist become essentially free. I persist every personal buff at the beginning of the day, and then Extend all of my 24 hours or hour/level that are on that days rotation. And then I cool my heals for about a half an hour. This is the same reason that Reserves of Strength is so broken -- it isn't busting the damage cap off of Fireball, it means that I can get 8HD forms with Alter Self (at 5th level), and by casting it outside of battle, the 3 lost rounds are meaningless.