League of Legends XIX: 15 million players, and nary a Morgana

[Spartacus]

League of Legends XIX:
15 million players, and nary a Morgana


y u no play Morgana?

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{table=head]Forum Name|Game Name
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Volatar | The Volatar
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woodzyowl | Woodzyowl
Zabel_Zarock | Jon Talbain
Zeful | Zeful
ZeroNumerous | ZeroNumerous
Zeteni | Zeteni
0tt3r | 0tt3r[/table]

EU Server--West
{table=head]Forum Name|Game Name
Acromos | Crannoch
Adumbration | Adumbration
Brother Oni | MarineHK4861
Eldariel | Elealar
Even Human | SlyGuyMcFly
Gauntlet | Isva
Nargan | Naryuk
Winterwind | DreamingHeart
Ziren | Zirenoid[/table]

EU Server--Nordic & East
{table=head]Forum Name|Game Name
Posca | LDRC
Rockbird | Rockbird[/table]

EU Server--Unspecified
{table=head]Forum Name|Game Name
Abakus | Terpfen
Alemil | Alemil
Ayra | Ayramatao
Dada | Scrattlebeard
Darwin | DarwinBeGood
Endoperez | Endoperez
Heliomance | Sidhe de Grian
Kurrel | GrinningOni
littlebottom | Littlebottom
lord_khaine | Lord_khaine
Morph Bark | Morpheus Bob
Narazil | Narazil
Narkis | Narkis
Penthar | Malderon
Raviepoos | Skittles Unicorn
Shadowleaf | AncientPharma
shadowwalker64 | shadowwalker64
Socratov | Mbutu
Voidhawk | Sidhe ne Awk
Volatar | VolatarUK
Zefir | Einerwie
Zombywoof | Zombywoof[/table]

Unspecified Region
{table=head]Forum Name|Game Name
Tvtyrant | Tvtyrant
[/table]

??
{table=head]Forum Name|Game Name
olelia | ??[/table]

Smurf Accounts
{table=head]Smurf Owner|Game Name
sofawall | wallsofa
Silverraptor | GITPSilverraptor
Faulty | MagnetsConfuseMe
ZombyWoof | DiscoGirl
Volatar | Karje
Dogmantra | TheManRatGod
[/table]


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STREAMS

Silverraptor (http://www.livestream.com/silverrapter?t=527242)
Lyxie (http://www.own3d.tv/lyxie)

GUIDES

Into the Wild - Guide to Being a Better Jungler (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10867111#post10867111) by Mtg_player_zach
Laser Bear Udyr (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9657101&postcount=39), by Djinn_In_Tonic
Rammus: Can't touch this (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=258919), by Math_Mage
Seizing the fourth digit: Playing your way out of Elo Hell. (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=341821) by Math_Mage
Twitch (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10267058&postcount=1448), by Djinn_In_Tonic
Faulty and Raistlin's Quick Build Database: Notes and Stuff (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10942497&postcount=1004) by Faulty and Raistlin
Jungle Akali (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10498621&postcount=1358) by Djinn
How to play everyone's favourite Lightning Squirrel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10518034&postcount=154) by Dogmantra
Lee Sin (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=636475) by Dralnu
Super Serious Rumble Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11052926&postcount=904) by Dogmantra
Jax (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11252389&postcount=652) by Mtg_player_zach
OH SNAP Morgana Can Jungle (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11295698&postcount=1238) by Dogmantra

CLASSY VIDEOS FOR CLASSY PEOPLE

Jungle Janna! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fC6wm9iaNmM)
How to Win Every Game in League of Legends (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrsTE1vpoXM)
Panic at the Nexus (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7WlCbaLI3I)
Sunfire Cape Sunday (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgjfX6crjrg)
Season One Trailer with Commentary (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/news/season-one-trailer-commentary)
D-Town (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wHp4VJ47v0)
Insanity Mix (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGKN1Adzckk&feature=related)
(Truly, Truly) Outrageous (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fC7S05vI-BU&feature=related)
I'm just a noob (Ryze Ryze Ryze again) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wpr1T-pgaZY&feature=related)
e.o.n Shen (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHs_cGUPQ3M&feature=related)
Vendrim-Ionia (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ry3E2UQMe3k&hd=1)
Pwn ur FACE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zf9VSDt0EN4)
Your -Epic- Dreamhack comes true! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKCs1CyBFLg)
Ezreal Custom Skin Spotlight (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zn-HoAPlg-c)
I Just Got Ganked (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpNVN33fj4Y&feature=channel_video_title)
Keep Feeding (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaR0frKc4a0)
Champion Rap Battles -- Brolaf vs. Gentleman Cho'Gath (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZ-r300BVFI)

COMICS AND PICS

LoL Comic (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=48169) by Elagune
Learn Your Alphabet (http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/6264/g28376.png) by Dogmantra and Pierreabelard (with a mention in Summoner Showcase #36 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cy7JWV-HA28&feature=feedu)!)
Chibi Champions (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=763895) by pika7
Gender Swaps (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=606416) by ShowMeYourMoves
Champion Flowchart Guides (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=608154) by Renekton Bot
Patch Day Comic (http://i.imgur.com/kHtwk.jpg) by DaemianFF

TRAVEL BACK IN TIME: PREVIOUS THREADS
League of Legends: XVIII: ┻━┻ ︵ （╯°□°）╯ (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207908)
League of Legends XVII: Gondor Has No Tank, Gondor Needs No Tank (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205488)
League of Legends XVI: Alas, Poor Game Balance, I Knew Him, Morello (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=203298)
League of Legends XV: Robots Are Better Than Trees (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=201024)
League of Legends XIV: We're So Broken That We're OP! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198948)
League of Legends XIII: Our Skill is Hard to Deny (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196765)
League of Legends XII: It's Worth It Because I Said So In The Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194886)
League of Legends XI: It's Hard to Post Like This in Heels (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192695)
League of Legends X: Armored Armadillo Delivers Ambiguous Affirmative (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10646164#post10646164)
League of Legends IX: New Thread Available! Only 6300 IP! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188076)
League of Legends VIII: Gali-Os: They're idolicious! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=185516)
League of Legends 7: Truly, Truly Outrageous! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=182486)
League of Legends 6: Jannaaaaaaaaaa! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178334)
League of Legends 5: Tall Grass Used Garen! DEMACIAAA! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=173805)
League of Legends 4:CAWCAWCAWCAWCAWCAW (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169616)
League of Legends 3: You only need to click once (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164008s)
League of Legends Goes Where It Pleases 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158135)
League Of Legends: We post where we please. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139094)

[EternalMelon]

Awww, I liked Soviet Demacia better...

[Volatar]

I would say that it's ok that you picked this thread title, since none of the others got any votes (this one got 3, yours, mine, and Math_Mage's)

[Spartacus]

So I'm really happy that Cho'Gath is cheaper now because I was all annoyed recently that he was so much and I wanted him because I always have fun when he's free because he's such a good AP burster.

[term1nally s1ck]

I play morg occasionally....once every blue moon. :smallbiggrin:

[EternalMelon]

I would say that it's ok that you picked this thread title, since none of the others got any votes (this one got 3, yours, mine, and Math_Mage's)

I guess your right... :smallsigh:

[Spartacus]

I just started a game where two people had the same name. I suspect trickery with capital I vs. lower-case L, but still. Threw me for a momentary loop.

EDIT: Upon closer examination, I was right. Still, pretty cool.

EDIT2: They tried to 15 minute Baron with JitB stacking. Only in a bot game. It didn't work out well, regardless, as Shaco was only level 8 and didn't take Smite. I just wanted a quick FwotD so I was Corki, and kinda steamrolled everything. Got a penta, but announcer didn't say it :(

[Eldariel]

We had like 3 hours to vote so (and You Can't Milk This Thread got at least 2 votes)... But it's not a big deal either way.

Completely unrelated, EU split IP Boost finally ended just now; got a nice 244 IP game to close it all off. Total gains, I'd estimate about 10k bonus IP from the boost. Pretty awesome that RIOT gives stuff like that for free. Then again, EU has been more or less unplayable for a large part of a year or so, so I guess it's a deserved compensation. Now just that account transfer option...

[Maeglin_Dubh]

I am a silly person who bought Annie just before the price drop.

*derpface*

[Codenpeg]

I am a silly person who bought Annie just before the price drop.

*derpface*

I vote something based on this for the next thread? Also I cannot play anything but tanky heroes, Morde, Rumble, Rammus, Blitz, Udyr. It doesn't help that nobody plays tank in solo queue so, meh.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

League of Legends XXI: 3150 until you buy it, 1350 afterwards.

[Qwertystop]

League of Legends XXI: 3150 until you buy it, 1350 afterwards.

Are there any thet were dropped from 6400? Because that's a much bigger drop. If not, just call it an anticipation.

[Daverin]

I just played my first actual pubstomp today. I went 10/1/? as Tryndamere in 20 minutes, took down 2 of their turrets (and they lost more), and forced a 20 minute surrender. I felt really awesome. My crowning achievement was to take down a Nasus, an Akali, and a jungle Udyr, all in the laning phase.

Also, I do have to say, there definitely is something to the AP start for Trynd; not only did that heavy heal keep me up in the laning phase, but made it so that they never were in a position to stop me from slaying one and making the other back. Also, we went against a Malz, and the extra heal actually was what kept me from dying from him. I definitely would not go AP after that, but since I think I'd go tanky dps Trynd, the amp tome goes into the Tri, which is nice.

Also, I have been thinking of a potential "laning" build, one that you keep expanding on until laning phase is over; it is not going out of the way, necessarily, because it mostly does build into other things. Basically, start Amp tome and potion, then go for, in some order, a Wriggles (will need to be sold, but its power in early and mid has long been hailed), a Brutalizer (goes to Yomouus, what can I say?), and the CDR boots (okay, so this one prob is very specific to good laning, but the combined CDR from boots and Brutalizer can mean some very timely heals). From there, do whatever.

I also have calculated that, for the purposes of heals in the laning phase, I'd go AP quints only, and go CDR for blues. The only downfall is that you do not have as high of burst heal compared to AP blues, but you gain more access to heals (the total is very close. Honestly, you could prob do either. Worth noting is that both also benefit his spin, which may or may not be helpful in laning.) Of course, this means you are not getting MR blues, which will hurt later on, but I think that being who he is, the potential for allowing Trynd a safer and potentially more successful lane will make up for it. Or not, but this is basically all theory at the moment. I sadly will only have the rest of the night to test stuff like this, and then I must go home, and have no League access for about two more weeks.

Finally, I actually used an 11/0/19 build, so as to access both CDR masteries, the movement and both ghost and flash masteries (my current setup, I've come to love that combo alot), as well as some of the more important off treee masteries, such as ArPen. By doing so, I actually have a 15% CDR assuming CDR blues, which is very nice given my focus on the heals for sustainability.

BTW, I still have no clue about in the jungle, and I'd be skeptical of AP starting, even just through masteries and runes. But, if you'd prefer to lane Trynd, I think this could prove to be his strongest start, taking advantage of his heal and its spammability. Which, btw, let me say now that you should make an exception to the rule and be quite willing to use the heal, even if it consumes fury in the lane. Trynd has a wicked strong base, and can afford to lose some crit in exchange for the sustainability. Plus, if you NEED the sustain because you are being outlaned, that crit means very little.

I will be interested in the next patch, because the numbers are going to be buffed for Trynd (or maybe not next patch, but in some future patch anyways.) If so, I could see this being even more effective a start.

So yeah. There's that. Still was an amazing game.

[Spartacus]

Wait, Annie is only 450 now? *snags*

[Dogmantra]

So

They release Caitlyn who has traps which grant vision. Okay, that's cool. You're not always gonna be near your traps, and there are some long-term stealth champions (stealth rework's being talked about by this point?) so the reveal works.

Then they add Lee Sin with a lot of reveals. They're nice for checking bushes, chasing etc, but it feels very very niche.

Then they release Vayne, and later on Wukong.
I feel like they're going to make short term stealth into a larger mechanic for a lot of characters, and add more revealing too. It just seems strange to add a "revealy" champion without too much stealth (which is the one thing it's REALLY good at countering)

[tribble]

I'm one game away from hitting level thirty, provided said game drags on long enough for me to get 90 experience out of it. I kind of want to do something special for this game. Can I premade with somebody? I want to get to play Sona.

[Raistlin1040]

I had a dream about League of Legends last night. I was doing Solo Queue and intended to play Junglemumu, except he got banned (even though I was in Normal). I decided to hit random and ended up with Mega Man. Then my entire team DC'd and I had to 1v5 as Mega Man.

I won.

[Winthur]

Are there any thet were dropped from 6400?

Nocturne, Vladimir, Karthus and Brand, to name a few.

:smalltongue:

[Douglas]

The problem is, that going against the current Meta, even successfully, would get kickback. Dogmantra says that Mage Galio is currently better than Tank Galio. He may be right, but outside of a 5-man I don't dare try it. And thats just one example.
If you tell the matchmaker you're playing a mage and then build that way in game, you might get some criticism from people who think it won't work well but they'd have no grounds for reporting you for lying about your role.

[Codenpeg]

About to play around with jungle rumble, I'm thinking starting flamethrower on mini-golems, going into overheat right off. Then wraths, wolves, maybe try a gank or some counter jungle. Not sure about items though. Maybe a tome and up to some spell vamp then a rylai's. Will report in after, but tips would be welcome.

[Inhuman Bot]

I'm one game away from hitting level thirty, provided said game drags on long enough for me to get 90 experience out of it. I kind of want to do something special for this game. Can I premade with somebody? I want to get to play Sona.

I'd reccomend drinking heavily so you're prepared for ranked.

[Silverraptor]

*Counter attacks with Kayle*

[Croverus]

Just posting in this so it'll be easier to find. Been playing supports recently, and I find most people either yell at me for not doing my job (even though they're taking extra risks and tower divingleft and right and my support skills are on cd) or people actually appreciate me. One game as zilean I had my whole tame thank me at the end for ll the saves I made with my ult.

I'm interested what the meta is for the personality of people who play the following champions:

Soraka
Zilean
Janna
Anivia
Taric
Urgot
Kog'Maw

[Daverin]

So, looking at Skarner... tanky anti-carry, maybe? With a shield that is also a steroid, a heal, and a passive that allows both to be reduced to 0 CD just by attacking, Skarner appears to have some nice toughness. Appears to have two aoes, one seems to be ranged. Depending on numbers, he could be interesting.

Also.

OMG, HE HAS SUPPRESSION! A NEW CHAMP HAS SUPPRESSION! AND HIS LETS HIM MOVE, AND THEY ALONG WITH HIM!!!

Erhm. Yes, that looks like it could be one amazing ult. The first movable suppress.

So, yeah. He has no hard cc or insta-gap closer. That I'm not so sure about. Riot did say that want a champ who can get past that, but I'm not so sure it can happen. He needs to catch them first, which is one of the big problems of Udyr, for example.

Still, crystal scorpion, and it looks awesome.

[Codenpeg]

About to play around with jungle rumble, I'm thinking starting flamethrower on mini-golems, going into overheat right off. Then wraths, wolves, maybe try a gank or some counter jungle. Not sure about items though. Maybe a tome and up to some spell vamp then a rylai's. Will report in after, but tips would be welcome.

Blah, screw it. He's much better in lane harassing the hell out of people.

[Math_Mage]

Skarner. Another has-it-all tanky DPS--shield, steroid, hard CC, speed+slow, and healing. No surprise there. Probably an interesting style because of the sort-of glue passive, but one wonders how long Riot can get away with putting a shield on everyone.

[Inhuman Bot]

Skarner. Another has-it-all tanky DPS--shield, steroid, hard CC, speed+slow, and healing. No surprise there. Probably an interesting style because of the sort-of glue passive, but one wonders how long Riot can get away with putting a shield on everyone.

Forever because it heralds the removal of Banshee's Veil, I would hope.

I dislike how Skarner has a more human face then his concept art displayed, though. Arachnids are already some of the most alien looking critters on Earth.

[term1nally s1ck]

Why. Do. People. Not. Know. How. To. Play.

I'm carrying the team *hard* as xin. 15-8-14 hard. Our cho is tanky as hell, and scaring people away like a bawss.

And then we baron. And we fight. We get 1 kill freely, but the others escaped, and most of our team is low, so they go b. CHogath decides 'RAWR I AM GOD' and charges in to the enemy base to take an inhib tower. 1v4, with me the only one anywhere nearby. I spam chat trying to get him to just run before the other two of them get to him, and then have to dive in to try desperately to kill the ashe to let him escape. He dies anyway, cos he decided to turn and fight on 400 hp because we can obv win 2v4.

My team then filter in one by one and feed them 5 kills in a row, despite me spamming chat saying 'just back off they have all 5 up you will die' literally 10 times.

Oh well, we're still way ahead. Big fight in jungle happens, we clean house, force 3 back and kill 2. Me and half the team go do baron, one guy goes b, and another two go b after baron. chogath decides that after baron, he must go ATTACK. So he wanders into their base 1v3, and is mostly dead by the time the rest of the team arrive, and we promptly lose a big fight due to no tank.

I rage at him in chat, saying 'why the hell would you throw our lead away when we're so far ahead. We could have just pushed lanes and won' and he says 'lol it's not that big a deal, they only got a few kills', and they promptly ace us for 2 in the next fight, take inhib, and slowly roll us.

I. Hate. Morons.

[Math_Mage]

Let Cho die. It's the only way to be sure.

[Mutant Bunny]

Yo.

Been playing since Jarvan came out, and been lurking here for a thread or two. Figured I'd jump in. DEMACIAAAAAAAAAAA.

OK, now that that's out of the way, I've been thinking a bit about how to best play Twisted Treeline. I think having two tanky DPS (or one pure tank and a tanky dps) and a mage is a bit more balanced than three bruisers, which is apparently a common team composition. Either two people to dive in and smash, one to burst stuff down, or one person to lay down hard CC, one to smash, and one to burst. Any thoughts?

[Maeglin_Dubh]

Yo.

Been playing since Jarvan came out, and been lurking here for a thread or two. Figured I'd jump in. DEMACIAAAAAAAAAAA.

OK, now that that's out of the way, I've been thinking a bit about how to best play Twisted Treeline. I think having two tanky DPS (or one pure tank and a tanky dps) and a mage is a bit more balanced than three bruisers, which is apparently a common team composition. Either two people to dive in and smash, one to burst stuff down, or one person to lay down hard CC, one to smash, and one to burst. Any thoughts?

I'm a big TT fan.
Eldariel's pretty good at it, too.
For a start, here's his latest tier list. (He's going to hate me for bringing this thing up again, but it's the only solid reference for 3v3 we have in these threads, so it's a decent start).



That list is from like January so...yeah, basically the whole game has been remade since; it's just not very useful (not to mention, that was before I got to play with the actual top 3v3 teams on EU). Since you brought it up, guess I'll make a quick revision (it's more "around there" than exact science, mind; I don't believe it's possible to make entirely accurate tier lists but this is based on what I see picked or banned, and how the picks perform):

Tier 1: Singed, Nunu, Alistar, Annie, Anivia, Corki, Jarvan, Karma, Rumble
Tier 2: Warwick, Shaco, Renekton, Mundo, Gragas, Ezreal, Miss Fortune, Caitlyn, Vayne, Gangplank, Kennen, Blitzcrank, Orianna, Nocturne, Yorick, Malzahar, Brand, Lee Sin, Irelia, Udyr, Trundle, Akali
Tier 3: Jax, Tryndamere, Master Yi, Sion, Urgot, Nidalee, Cassiopeia, Karthus, Swain, Taric, Fiddlesticks, Shen, Rammus, Vladimir, Janna, Zilean, Kassadin, Malphite, Maokai, Ryze, Morgana, Lux, Teemo, Poppy, Mordekaiser, Cho'Gath, Olaf, Xin Zhao, LeBlanc, Garen
Tier 4: Tristana, Sona, Amumu, Soraka, Kog'Maw, Katarina, Ashe, Kayle, Nasus

Tier 5: Galio, Sivir, Twisted Fate, Veigar, Pantheon, Twitch, Evelynn, Leona


Tier 1 is for champions I'd consider banning in Ranked, and ones I see banned by good teams (and often picked when not banned).

Tier 2 is for champions that are really good but generally not banned, and thus form the bulk of teams after bans.

Tier 3 is for more situational champions that can shine in some cases but aren't generally quite as common picks as Tier 2s and have more match-ups where you simply won't want them.

Tier 4 is for champions that are strictly situational and only used in special circumstances.


And Tier 5 is obviously the champs I wouldn't want to play with basically ever in ranked 3s.

[toasty]

Just posting in this so it'll be easier to find. Been playing supports recently, and I find most people either yell at me for not doing my job (even though they're taking extra risks and tower divingleft and right and my support skills are on cd) or people actually appreciate me. One game as zilean I had my whole tame thank me at the end for ll the saves I made with my ult.

The thing about supports is that playing them in solo queue is mostly a big waste of time in my opinion. Supports thrive on communication and being able to trust your teamates. While Corki might not provide much utility to his team, he has amazing damage and can just EAT people. Soraka can't do that, and if the corki overextends there is only so much she can do.

However, supports are 100% necessary for any sort of serious game. I play supports a lot and I love doing it, even if Support+Carry Bot is boring as hell if you aren't playing Taric/Alistair. You just need to be constantly CVing and Warding everywhere. Its also really fun getting a bunch of Aura items: Aegis, Will of the Ancients, and Starks are all amazing items on the right teams. Because of the Double Mage Strategy that many teams run now, Will of the Ancients is almost always a good item (ESPECIALLY if your carry is Corki). Aegis is a good "go to" Aura item, and Starks is good when you have a double carry team.

Great AP item for Supports is Morello's Evil Tome. But really, most supports don't get AP except for maybe 1-2 Doran's. Its more important to get Gold/10 items and Wards/Oracles. If one of your mages is someone like Kennen, Vlad or Mordekaiser you should ask them to get a Will of the Ancients instead and let you build CDR.

Another GREAT item for Supports is Shurelia's Reverie, especially on Alistair and Sona, its so good! Other items are Soul Shroud and I guess Frozen Heart on Taric, though I'd rather just get more AP for him. Kage's is an okay item, but I prefer the Philo Stone/Heart of Gold combo. You pretty much want to always use CDR boots, because CDR is so important on Supports and you're pretty much never gonna get blue buff.


Soraka
Zilean
Janna
Anivia
Taric
Urgot
Kog'Maw

Soraka, Janna, and Taric are supports. Try to go bot with a Ranged Carry or a Tanky DPS like Jarvan or Lee Sin and support them. Buy lots of wards, don't ever CS if someone else is in the lane (of course, if they are bad at farming, then of course you should take some farm!), your build should maximize CDR first and AP second. Gold/10 items like Philo Stone are your friend. If you aren't carrying wards the you're doing it wrong.

Zilean is kinda weird. You can play him as support, but he doesn't have exactly the same utility as other Supports. He's really more of a Mage than a support, in my opinion. Zilean wants 40% CDR and constant blue buff so that his Ult is always up. Correct use of Zilean ult will do wonders for team fights. Bomb Harass is amazing in lane, and Bombs are AoE so they're very useful in team fights (because its essentially 2 .9 AP ratio AoE nukes!). Your Speed/Slow is awesome when used correctly.

Anivia is a Mage and should Solo Mid. She needs constant blue buff. That's about all I know about Anivia.

Urgot is a "Carry" but really shines Early game. If he can solo against a weaker laner (something that doesn't happen so much now cuz weak laners like Ashe get babysat bottom) then he will destroy them. He still works pretty well in a bot duo lane with an aggressive Support like Taric or Alistair, though. Urgot's #1 problem is that he doesn't scale nearly as well as the current popular carries: Corki, Ashe, Vayne, Caitlyn, Miss Fortune, and Tristana all outscale him, and heroes like Vayne and Miss Fortune rival his early game damage.

If you're solo queuing I suggest playing mostly Urgot or Anivia. Zilean can work as well, but he's not as big of a carry as Anivia.

[Moonshadow]

Actually, I'd say Taric is a Tanky DPS with a heal >_>

[Daverin]

I'm telling you, if it were a constant instead of increasing cost on his ult, Taric would be a carry! :smalltongue:

[Mutant Bunny]

I'm a big TT fan.
Eldariel's pretty good at it, too.
For a start, here's his latest tier list. (He's going to hate me for bringing this thing up again, but it's the only solid reference for 3v3 we have in these threads, so it's a decent start).

After having been destroyed by a team that farmed the jungle particularly well, it occurred to me that, when a tower isn't being threatened, it's probably better to farm the jungle than hang around the lane exchanging harass.

Also, when people hang around in the bottom bush looking for first blood, I think one of the smarter things to do is take your team and hang around the jungle camp between the lanes: grab the camp for group XP and wait for the solo top to come by on his way to the lane. If you can't kill him, grab the minion farm from the top lane while he hugs hsi turret, then head to your lanes.

It seems to me that duo bot really is a waste, considering all the camps in top jungle. I'd like to put the mage on the bottom lane and the two melees top, farming the jungle as often as possible.



Aside from that, I main Trundle (typically jungling), and I'm trying to figure out what the best build is for him. I used to build wriggles, mercs, and sheen, then defensive items. However, I'm wondering whether black cleaver is a better choice than triforce for offense. In other words, I'm thinking of skipping sheen and buying either a negatron cloak or a chain shirt, then getting cleaver. I'm also thinking that guardian angel could be good for him.

[Inhuman Bot]

I'm telling you, if it were a constant instead of increasing cost on his ult, Taric would be a carry! :smalltongue:

So would Ashe, if she had any particularly good scaling skills.

All I can see from Skarner's preview is the Brackhar-n.

[toasty]

Actually, I'd say Taric is a Tanky DPS with a heal >_>

Technically, this is correct, Taric is a tankyDPS. But the thing is, Taric builds support. I've seen people build Taric AP, and its hilarious. I'm sure Taric could build Attack Speed (Guinsoo, Nashors, Starks). But I've always played him Support and that seems the most reasonable position for him.

[Arcanoi]

Technically, this is correct, Taric is a tankyDPS. But the thing is, Taric builds support. I've seen people build Taric AP, and its hilarious. I'm sure Taric could build Attack Speed (Guinsoo, Nashors, Starks). But I've always played him Support and that seems the most reasonable position for him.

Taric is not tanky dps. He can be relatively tanky, and can build damage, but he doesn't do damage by building tanky and he only has artificial durability if he builds AP. Taric has an enormous problem. Namely, he has Nidalee syndrome. He's got a 'toolbox' kit with horrendously high numbers that make up for the lack of synergy. Because he has no gap-closers or movement steroids, this is all he can do. He can make a pass at building AP, but this only works in solo queue and only if you have fantastic positioning skills, and only because the self-heal numbers on his Q probably need a nerf.

[Volatar]

So, I finally got the ability to pay money for things (having money, a bank account, and a debit card helps this), and immediately bought $20 of RP.

I bought Frostfire Annie, and Leona. I am having trouble deciding which is more awesome.

Anyways, immeadiately afterwords I played a really awesome game as Leona with Lyxie and some other people (Lyxie is the only one who ever matters).

It was an awesome game. We dominated laning and early game, had bad teamwork and lost a couple barons mid game, but rallied and organized ourselves late game and ended up winning. It was really awesome and lasted forever and a half.

I was asked to post the following screenshots. They are not altered in any way.


http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/8818/leona1.png
http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/2945/leona2.png
http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/7068/leona3.png


Yes, he did do THAT MUCH damage.

[Mutant Bunny]

Technically, this is correct, Taric is a tankyDPS. But the thing is, Taric builds support. I've seen people build Taric AP, and its hilarious. I'm sure Taric could build Attack Speed (Guinsoo, Nashors, Starks). But I've always played him Support and that seems the most reasonable position for him.

He has two auras, a heal, and a stun. You might catch a team off-guard with an AD or AP build, but he doesn't seem to have enough farming potential to get the items needed for a high-damage build. On the other hand, stark's fervor could very well be a good item even on a support build. It's a good supplement to the healing and AD boost of his ultimate... assuming you already have maximum CDR.

Anyone have opinions on jungling with him? He has a decent armor steroid and a self-heal, and his stun seems like a decent ganking tool (if the enemy flashes away when you show up, your stun is going to be pretty much guaranteed its full duration), but I don't think he has enough damage at low levels to have a good clear time. IOW, is jungle Taric outrageous, or truly, truly, truly outrageous?

[Spartacus]

So level 1 fight with Trundle as Ryze? Not going to end well.

Level 18 fight with Trundle as Ryze? One skill rotation brings him down to 1/3 HP :D

[TechnOkami]

HEIMERDINGER!!!!!! Oh my he is so bloody powerful. I'm gonna so totally buy him now.

[Volatar]

So level 1 fight with Trundle as Ryze? Not going to end well.

Level 18 fight with Trundle as Ryze? One skill rotation brings him down to 1/3 HP :D

I really needed to buy more MR that game >_>

[Spartacus]

Man, you seriously shut me down until I decided to just let Malzabro deal with you.

EDIT: Also, we were all AP. More MR would have been awesome.

[Volatar]

Man, you seriously shut me down until I decided to just let Malzabro deal with you.

EDIT: Also, we were all AP. More MR would have been awesome.

Basically I came into it going "ok, I either last hit under my tower all lane or I go all aggressive on his butt. Let's see how much damage trundle does early."

Turns out it was a lot. :smallbiggrin:

[Spartacus]

After you kicked my butt, I went through a similar thought process, only it turned into "Last hit under tower, and wait for good items..."

[Winthur]

I know Dogmantra is an authority and I respect his opinion verily, but I wanted to ask about a few things on Rumble, such as how to deal with other difficult laners and is there any reason to level, say, Harpoon over Flamespitter in some situations (when you need to keep them at range maybe?). And how do you use Flamespitter without pushing the lane and screwing yourself over? Also, 9/21/0 or 9/0/21?

[Eurus]

Taric in 3v3. Thoughts?

[Eldariel]

After having been destroyed by a team that farmed the jungle particularly well, it occurred to me that, when a tower isn't being threatened, it's probably better to farm the jungle than hang around the lane exchanging harass.

3v3 teams should have a dedicated jungler or at least someone with a Smite, capable of clearing the camps quickly. If you duolane, your duolane should be on top for Dragon control and top jungle control. Top jungle has the most valuable camps in the two "small" buff camps. The speedbuff is also godlike for ganking or escaping.

In normal 3v3, it often pays to get the top lane with a champ capable of clearing the jungle early; Anivia, Udyr, Irelia, the like. Then you can lane and run to jungle as soon as you're high enough level to hold it (just make sure your lane is held). But if you can, it's stronger to just have a real jungler ganking early. In 3v3, a jungler can actually outlevel solo lanes for a few moments.


Also, when people hang around in the bottom bush looking for first blood, I think one of the smarter things to do is take your team and hang around the jungle camp between the lanes: grab the camp for group XP and wait for the solo top to come by on his way to the lane. If you can't kill him, grab the minion farm from the top lane while he hugs hsi turret, then head to your lanes.

Yes, the bottom brush crap is something some idiot once did and everyone copied and it's just about the most retarded place to try to ambush people in. It's one of the big reasons the normal queue is so hilariously stupid. Any of the jungle brushes is better. My team usually goes to the top jungle to control the buffs and look for an opportunity to steal the top jungle against a team with a jungler who starts in the middle.


It seems to me that duo bot really is a waste, considering all the camps in top jungle. I'd like to put the mage on the bottom lane and the two melees top, farming the jungle as often as possible.

Duo top is absolutely stronger than duo bot; duo bot is only for red control but top controls it quite fine too (especially if you have blinkers) and also controls the super valuable camps in the top jungle. Botlane is also harder to gank since there are no back entrances to the lane aside from the one at the towers so with a simple ward in the middle, it's quite safe to lane while top lane has two entrances in the rear of the lane making for easy ganks.

It's worth noting that good teamcomps are far from as simple as people think. Yes, Tanky DPS is good but a well-played team with controlling champions and DPS or mage is going to trump them. Something like Alistar/Taric/Corki is insanely strong, for example. Or Anivia/Jarvan/Warwick. Or Miss Fortune/Ryze/Trundle. Or some such; in general, you want at least one tanky type in the teams to catch people but champs that truly dominate TT are champs with tons of ranged low level burst (Vayne, MF, Corki, Annie, Anivia, etc.). All of them have sides and sides; Anivia is my most played champion and her Wall is incredibly powerful in 3s but on the flipside she does have more mana problems than most on the map since there's no blue buff. She's still very strong but not The Only™. Also, it's worth noting that blinks are pretty valuable in 3s since comparatively they cover more distance than on other maps due to the abundance of walls you wanna blink over in the map (Ezreal, Corki, Kassadin, Gragas, etc. really love this).

One thing to note is that when you have only 3 champs, you really, really want crowd control. Not only does that stop you from getting facerolled by a random Katarina/Master Yi/Tryndamere, it's also just so key to initiate fights and pin enemies down. I generally avoid champions without hard crowd control in 3v3; while few of them are really good (Karma has no significant CC for example, and she's really strong; many of the top champs like Nunu, Rumble & co. also only have slows), you really can't afford many low CC champions when you only have 3 champions total. This is part of the reason AD carries are so hard to fit into comps; they tend to come with little to no CC in and of themselves. Part of the reason why I prefer Vayne; she's mobile, high burst and Condemn is a rather reliable stun especially in 3v3.


Aside from that, I main Trundle (typically jungling), and I'm trying to figure out what the best build is for him. I used to build wriggles, mercs, and sheen, then defensive items. However, I'm wondering whether black cleaver is a better choice than triforce for offense. In other words, I'm thinking of skipping sheen and buying either a negatron cloak or a chain shirt, then getting cleaver. I'm also thinking that guardian angel could be good for him.

Triforce is the most commonly used build; Triforce -> Tanky. The 250 HP you get outta it is far from trivial. You can certainly build more damage but that tends to skip your tankiness too far down the line making you of relatively little use earlier on when you can't really get in there.


Taric in 3v3. Thoughts?

He's good if you put a ranged AD in your comp.

[Eurus]

He's good if you put a ranged AD in your comp.

Makes sense. Out of curiosity, can somebody who knows Taric explain what effect his ult actually has on minions? I think I noticed Radiance Lv. 2 buffing minion damage by like 10.

[Rhydeble]

I swear, Riot's hero-price engine is starting to get as annoying as the loot drops in monster hunter.

I myself usually go for a high-mana build on anivia. In that case, what she really benefits from is something like a yi that can finish of the targets that she brings to low hitpoints. Mid-game she can carry her team, but late-game her damage starts being too spread out to kill enemy champions, and evolving into more of a slow/AoE champion then a killer.

[Adumbration]

Yes, the bottom brush crap is something some idiot once did and everyone copied and it's just about the most retarded place to try to ambush people in. It's one of the big reasons the normal queue is so hilariously stupid. Any of the jungle brushes is better. My team usually goes to the top jungle to control the buffs and look for an opportunity to steal the top jungle against a team with a jungler who starts in the middle.

This is absolutely true, but I also think it's absolutely hilarious to go to the bot bush with a superior level 1 team comp, just to see if the opposing team is stupid enough to come there out of sheer habit. It's sort of like a litmus test for the enemy team: if they're stupid enough to fight you down there, you go hulk on them and kill a couple of them, or just force them to blow flashes and summoner spells. If not, you tell your solo top to take the safe route to top lane or escort him there as a team of 3. If they're in that bush and you have superior early team comp, you still win.

Of course, if the enemy team has superior early comp, you either try the bushwhacking solo top yourself or just sit next to the turrets with a trollface. If they escort the solo top, try not to get caught. If they have a jungler you go roam with 3 in the top jungle and try catch him offguard.

In my experience, a strong early comp consists usually of tanky DPS with hard CC and/or a powerful early game dps. Ezreal and Corki are both strong early game (and Corki in late game still).

Meh. Reading back, didn't really say anything Elealar didn't already say better, but maybe I've provided a somewhat useful insight to playing TT in low to middle ELOs. Makes me want to play LoL and TT again, but 6 more days... It's bloody annoying when your internet connection varies between 5 and 200 kbps with 70/30 balance in favor of the slower.

As a random sidenote, I never noticed how powerful Poppy's passive was until I started playing her in 3v3.

[Necroticplague]

Dang, it seams that most of thee time I buy a champion, they end up decreasing their price afterwords. Also, decided to revisit Mundo, now that I earned more experience with tanks, and discovered exactly how good he is at harassing. Sure, it mostly boils down to "q-q-q-q-q-q-q-q", but it works pretty well, since Mundo doesn't have to build anything for it (cleaver damage is stat-independent), and it uses a rescource that he regains quickly(his health).

[Spartacus]

Man. I go try out AP Cho'Gath and I end up with a Corki who builds Last Whisper, Archangel's and Nashor's, a Yi who stacks 3 Zeals before getting anything else, a Nidalee who decides that when losing and 3/5/7, clearly Mejai's and Leviathan are the best buys, and a Jax who was actually competent. Against us is a premade of Trynd, Akali and Amumu, accompanied by Annie and Ashe. What 3 champions do I least want to face when alongside a team likely to die a lot? Or, right, Trynd, Annie and Akali. Despite killing Annie, Ashe or Trynd in one skill rotation and being reasonably tanky with Abyssal Scepter, Hourglass and my Feast stacks, I was still unable to stop my team's defeat.

EDIT: And his cleavers do percentage damage :(

[TechnOkami]

EDIT: And his cleavers do percentage damage :(

Wow... Mundo really does go where he pleases. :smallwink:

[Giant Panda]

I used to play Taric with a build something like this;

2 Wards, Pots.
Boots of Speed.
Boots of Mobility.
Spirit Visage.
Banshee's Veil.
Stack Wards (both types) for the rest of the game.

It worked SO well. Late game you have plenty of cash to spare for good items for the final pushes, but early-mid game you have nigh-total map control. Since you dedicate 100% of your income to wards early on, it's impossible to counter-ward you without completely ruining there build. It's extra fun if they have a jungler. One game I got three kills in something like 10 minutes just from warding the jungle, and stunning their jungler every time he almost killed a lizard or golem. It also got me all the jungle buffs, so woop.

Not sure if this still works, been a few months since I played, but it was hella fun.

[Spartacus]

So I added something (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZ-r300BVFI) to the classy videos for classy people.

[TechnOkami]

So I added something (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZ-r300BVFI) to the classy videos for classy people.

Djinn... I applaud you good sir. Those Cho'Gath lines were impeccably awesome.

[Eurus]

So I added something (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZ-r300BVFI) to the classy videos for classy people.

Oh my god that is just fantastic.

[tribble]

Let Cho die. It's the only way to be sure.

Also, you're xin? Go push the other tower.

[term1nally s1ck]

We had killed the other 2 inhibs already. They had 4 guys all defending the nexus and inhib tower.

[Draken]

Ah, good, ol' "we are winning so there is no problem if I DEEEEERP", had one of those just the other day, a Miss Fortune. We were pushing nexus turrets, everyone shouting "attack the turret" and she goes and attacks ww.

Enemy team kills us and the last nexus turret stands proudly alive.

:smallfurious:

[Astrella]

Just posting in this so it'll be easier to find. Been playing supports recently, and I find most people either yell at me for not doing my job (even though they're taking extra risks and tower divingleft and right and my support skills are on cd) or people actually appreciate me. One game as zilean I had my whole tame thank me at the end for ll the saves I made with my ult.

I'd argue that playing support in solo queue is the best way to get good at playing support. What solo queue support play will do is make you good at coordination that doesn't require communication. In hectic team fights, most choices will be left to your own judgement after all and solo queue can really help you develop the proper thing to do in each situation.

Sadly playing support is a very thankless job.

[toasty]

Sadly playing support is a very thankless job.

You also can't carry your idiot teammates the way you can playing a strong Top Solo Champion. :smallbiggrin:

[Astrella]

Oh, that reminds me, a thought occurred.

We were having a discussion on mumble yesterday about the laning phase. Currently, the main goal of the laning phase is to amass as much farm as possible for the mid-late game. Now, drastic changes to the main game probably won't be done, since it'd require a reevaluation of every champion and item. But say more very lane-dominant champions who can deny their enemy's farm are introduced (e.g. Urgot), would that make it a bit more interesting?

Edit: I'd also love for them to introduce Draft Mode to normal games. Blind pick just makes niche team comps a lot less viable.

[balistafreak]

You also can't carry your idiot teammates the way you can playing a strong Top Solo Champion. :smallbiggrin:

I actually think it's easier to carry an "idiot team" as a tanky jungler... that is, so long as your lanes don't completely collapse. (Nothing will help you win that.)

The reasoning is that ganks "protect" your lanes, putting the Fear of God into the enemy. More importantly, your roaming will let you freely ward, which naturally directs the flow of the game. Dual-warding the river and one jungle side is a screaming signal to "push this lane" - two wards in the dragon side of river is how you say "we are taking this dragon".

Since you're ganking, you'll be calling for the laners to initiate before you jump in anyways, so they'll eventually start willingly following your orders as you feed them ganks in lane. When it comes to late game, they'll be working like a well-oiled machine underneath your command.

Of course, all of this assumes that you and your teammates are capable of avoiding massive derps (I have on repeated occasions accidentally smartcast Gangplank's ult at my own feet in the river instead of the lane in mid-gank), but then again, massive derps are something any player with some experience should not do habitually.

[Dogmantra]

I'd argue that playing support in solo queue is the best way to get good at playing support.

I'd not only agree, but say it makes you better at all the parts of the game that aren't playing the game.

Back when I played TF2, I wrote articles for a reasonably popular site about the game. One of my more controversial (and more popular) articles was about the idea of Skill against Meta, arguing that certain classes required different skillsets, which I broadly broke down into Skill (twitchy aiming, rocket jumping, leading, etc) and Meta (knowing maps, where to place sentries, who's best to heal, how to approach the map objectives etc) and then I put the classes on a line, going from Skill at one end to Meta at the other. My point related to League of Legends here is that support characters are very much Meta. There are obviously elements of Skill in every single character (just as there are elements of Meta in every one). That said, Support is actually a surprisingly good way of carrying teams that in solo/duo queue because you don't have to be so focused on the Skilly elements which tend to take up more attention, which lets you step back and say "okay, we did this right last fight, more of that, we can do X to gain a tangible advantage next time we win a teamfight, and make sure to avoid Y because we almost lost when we did that". It's very refreshing.


You also can't carry your idiot teammates the way you can playing a strong Top Solo Champion. :smallbiggrin:

If you can't carry a team that's worse than you as a support, you're doin' it wrong. Because support are assumed to get no farm, you can get whatever you or your team needs and that is a huge advantage. Also you're probably wasting money on wards. Wards are bad if your team doesn't take advantage of them, which if they're idiots, they probably won't. Sure you can't carry BLC style where healers are often the easiest archetype to carry with, but you can totally make your team not suck as a support.


But say more very lane-dominant champions who can deny their enemy's farm are introduced (e.g. Urgot), would that make it a bit more interesting?
I don't think there's actually any shortage of very lane dominant champions. Urgot, Cassiopeia, Karthus, Kennen, Swain, Vlad and Orianna are the ones that come to mind instantly. The passivity in lane isn't because of lack of lane dominance, I think it's more because of junglers and the threat of ganking. Nearly every lane dominant guy also has a fantastic escape or the range to dominate without needing to overextend. Part of Kennen's problem is that to achieve lane dominance he needs to enter melee range with his escape an awful lot. Bam, ganked.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

Do 6300 champs ever get put on RP sale? I'm thinking of getting some RP, but if they go on sale, I'd want to wait for that.

[term1nally s1ck]

I just came here to say basically the same thing about supports. On the rare occasion that I play taric, because I'm very good at the 'what we need to do' and less good at the 'doing it' part, I can help guide my team greatly.

We just turned around a 10 kill deficit, including a 6-1 vayne on the other team, to win the game pretty handily, despite vayne getting a pentakill before the end of the game.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

You also can't carry your idiot teammates the way you can playing a strong Top Solo Champion. :smallbiggrin:

I'll agree with you, only in terms of the traditional sense of "carry." On the other hand, as Janna, I once sustained a game where, by 20 minutes, we had lost all the towers but our Inhib turrets and were down 17 (yes, 17) kills (incompetent team was incompetent). Through literally thousands of gold spent on wards and careful Ult use, we managed to completely neutralize their advantage and almost (not quite, sadly) win the resulting game at the 48 minute mark, when the enemy team managed to beat us in a base race 'cause our AD carry was stupid about Tower Aggro.

So carried? No. Absolutely crucial to the team doing well, moreso than any of the other individual members, to the point where we were able to defeat a numerically superior foe? Definitely.

[toasty]

Meh, it seems to me every time I play Taric or Soraka or Sona in Solo Queue there is a 50% chance that my allies will suck and I'll end up bottom with a useless carry don't nothing. Meanwhile top is dying cuz they're dumb too. At least, when I play a top solo like Gangplank or Warwick I know that no matter what happens, I'll probably win my lane (hmm... I don't think I've lost my lane in a while, to be honest, could be wrong) and I'll come out of top with near perfect farm and tons of items.

It has been my experience that supports can only do so much. You can ward, you can shield/heal/stun/debuff/buff all you want, but your allies need to take advantage of it, and if they don't, they lose. On the other hand, if you play Warwick or Gangplank or Alistair or Rumble or something, all you need is 1-2 smart players on your team who realize that you're really fed and about to destroy the enemy.

At least, that's been my experience. I love it when I get a good support player and if it was up to me, I'd duo queue with a support player who would go bottom and then put me top as Warwick every single game I played that wasn't a 5 queue. But that's my opinion based on my experience at the 1100-1200 bracket in solo queue.

In other news: Gangplank is still awesome and Tankwick is still a baller. :smallbiggrin:

[Morph Bark]

I barely ever check this thread-chain, but the title struck me. Is Morgana supposed to be bad now or something? I often play her - or Veigar, having quit playing Teemo, and found her suiting me.

[Math_Mage]

I barely ever check this thread-chain, but the title struck me. Is Morgana supposed to be bad now or something? I often play her - or Veigar, having quit playing Teemo, and found her suiting me.

Basically everyone who played Morgana moved on to Swain, or Lux, or Orianna, or Kayle, or one of the umpteen other champions that do most of what Morgana does without a flash initiation. Same thing (minus the flash initiation) with Olaf, Nasus, Veigar, and Galio.

[Dogmantra]

Meh, it seems to me every time I play Taric or Soraka or Sona in Solo Queue there is a 50% chance that my allies will suck and I'll end up bottom with a useless carry don't nothing.
solo mid Soraka


I barely ever check this thread-chain, but the title struck me. Is Morgana supposed to be bad now or something? I often play her - or Veigar, having quit playing Teemo, and found her suiting me.

No, she's not supposed to be bad, she's just horrifically underplayed because of typical over-reaction to a nerf.
Back when Zhonya's Ring was still in the game, she could buy that, suddenly deal a ton of damage, shield for loads and also Flash > Ult > Ring for initiation. Now, she needs to rush Zhonya's Hourglass if she wants to do the same, giving her much less damage (and less early damage in particular because she can't buy a Blasting Wand first). The other things about her are that she's not an amazing damage dealer, like mages that are played often at the moment, her damage is more sustained and supporty, combined with CC, rather than having the burst of Annie or Brand, and while her passive does give her some sustainability, it's not comparable to Vlad's or Swain's.
And finally, her ultimate is very very easy to counter unless you chain it with another AoE snare/stun/taunt a la Amumu or Galio. The trouble there is that you're just wasting time. Why bother chaining the CC for Morgana when you could pick Brand or Malzahar or Annie and use the time they're initially CCed to burst down your opponents rather than set them up for a stun?


or Lux,
Lux doesn't have anything like the same role as Morgana, despite having a very similar skillset. Her ranges and ultimate make her a sort of long ranged assassin whereas Morgana is a short ranged in your face CCbot.

[Math_Mage]

Lux doesn't have anything like the same role as Morgana, despite having a very similar skillset. Her ranges and ultimate make her a sort of long ranged assassin whereas Morgana is a short ranged in your face CCbot.

Well...exactly. Why pick a short-ranged in-your-face CCbot when you can have a CCbot with 1k range and better burst (albeit rather less DoT)?

[Dogmantra]

Well...exactly. Why pick a short-ranged in-your-face CCbot when you can have a CCbot with 1k range and better burst (albeit rather less DoT)?

I don't understand.
You can't replace Morgana with Lux on a team and expect the latter to fulfill the same roles. They're not interchangable. It seems like you're suggesting they are.

[EternalMelon]

I don't understand.
You can't replace Morgana with Lux on a team and expect the latter to fulfill the same roles. They're not interchangable. It seems like you're suggesting they are.

Their not.
Morganna is a 6 gun blade Mage/support carry that can solo a team.
Lix is a 6 hat Mage/support carry that can solo a team.

[Darth Mario]

So Djinn, Ryomasa, and my Songs of the Summoned submission is finished, for those we've been telling about it. Check it out, take a listen, spread the lovin' around.

Champion Rap Battles: Brolaf vs Gentleman Cho'Gath by SmartKast
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZ-r300BVFI

Edit: Also, if some of you wouldn't mind helping to raise awareness by keeping the League of Legends forum thread bumped, we would be much obliged.
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=1062472

[Dogmantra]

you didn't give a reason for them rap battling
I quite like it actually, it sorta makes me wish I was competent at the musics to totally beat you guys
you're just like, encouraging violence, man

[Eurus]

I want to see more rap battles. Blitzcrank, Taric, Mundo, Miss Fortune, Nasus, there's so many candidates! :smallamused:

[Fera Tian]

Do 6300 champs ever get put on RP sale? I'm thinking of getting some RP, but if they go on sale, I'd want to wait for that.

Yep, I've gotten Vlad, Twitch and Karthus at half rp price.

[Math_Mage]

I don't understand.
You can't replace Morgana with Lux on a team and expect the latter to fulfill the same roles. They're not interchangable. It seems like you're suggesting they are.

No, I'm suggesting that Lux is easier to build a team around and easier to play and more viable overall because she doesn't have to get in the danger zone to throw out her burst. They're certainly not interchangeable.

Let me put it this way. People who like Morgana's skillset moved on to Lux. People who like Morgana's playstyle moved on to Swain. People who liked never losing solo lane moved on to Jarvan/WW/Udyr top or Annie/Brand mid. People who like the FOTM AP carry moved on to Orianna. I'm not saying that all of these champions do exactly what Morgana does, but rather that everyone who liked Morgana for whatever reason got a champ that appealed even more to that reason.

[tribble]

Yeah, I decided to forget about premades and just instalock sona, it worked out.

Holy god, I love the draft pick music.

Of course, I have lost every game, and it's because of Jax. Aside from banning him, which isn't my perogative, what can I do to counter him?

Also, I think I need to learn to play nasus well, instead of just sort of acceptable. I've been starting with doran's blade for the extra damage, so I can last hit more easily, and getting Manamune for the mana. (I know manamune isn't amazing, but I don't really like the chalice riot recommends. I need mana NOW in a teamfight, not over the next thirty seconds. I do feel he needs a mana item to freely farm.) Sheen seems non-negotiable on him. After getting Sheen and manamune I go for tank items. It seems to be okay, but I get the feeling that Nasus is just that good and it's not my build being good.

[Eurus]

Yeah, I decided to forget about premades and just instalock sona, it worked out.

Holy god, I love the draft pick music.

Of course, I have lost every game, and it's because of Jax. Aside from banning him, which isn't my perogative, what can I do to counter him?

Also, I think I need to learn to play nasus well, instead of just sort of acceptable. I've been starting with doran's blade for the extra damage, so I can last hit more easily, and getting Manamune for the mana. (I know manamune isn't amazing, but I don't really like the chalice riot recommends. I need mana NOW in a teamfight, not over the next thirty seconds. I do feel he needs a mana item to freely farm.) Sheen seems non-negotiable on him. After getting Sheen and manamune I go for tank items. It seems to be okay, but I get the feeling that Nasus is just that good and it's not my build being good.

I get Philosopher's for my mana, personally. Serves me well enough for laning.

[Cainen]

Basically everyone who played Morgana moved on to Swain, or Lux, or Orianna, or Kayle, or one of the umpteen other champions that do most of what Morgana does without a flash initiation. Same thing (minus the flash initiation) with Olaf
There isn't a single champion with an equivalent of Black Shield, which is arguably one of the best abilities in the game when paired with champs that have a weakness to being kited or CCed.

Olaf being an uncommon pick now has nothing to do with other champs outshining him(an AD Poppy is the closest thing to Olaf in the game and she is also extremely dangerous after a point), it has to do with Flash destroying someone with no gap closer and his weakness to counterjungling.

[Nargan]

The past 5 games have been like this, this one is just an example.

Guess who were the double premade top lane? Go on, I dare you.

It's almost enough to make a guy want to play ranked again, but then, I don't wanna lose ELO before the reset, i'd rather just wait and play after.

http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/6791/thisiswhatihavetoputupw.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/683/thisiswhatihavetoputupw.png/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

That is just one example. Another is a game I played with Bunnyoffaith who will totally post in this thread because I know he's lurking here. :

I pick jungle yi, okay, sure, why not, we have no jungler or AD, plus he's fun and I have a new skin for him, team comp seems okay.

Fid has 1500 ping, leaves bunny solo bot lane as soraka, I come to help , get a double kill. Ashe dies 4 TIMES TO ANNIE IN MID, calling me noob yi for not ganking, WHEN SHE PUSHED ANNIE TO HER TOWER AND ATE NOCT GANK 4 TIMES IN A ROW.

Ashe ragequits, 3v5 now. God that was fun.

[EternalMelon]

The past 5 games have been like this, this one is just an example.

Guess who were the double premade top lane? Go on, I dare you.

It's almost enough to make a guy want to play ranked again, but then, I don't wanna lose ELO before the reset, i'd rather just wait and play after.

http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/6791/thisiswhatihavetoputupw.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/683/thisiswhatihavetoputupw.png/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

That is just one example. Another is a game I played with Bunnyoffaith who will totally post in this thread because I know he's lurking here. :

I pick jungle yi, okay, sure, why not, we have no jungler or AD, plus he's fun and I have a new skin for him, team comp seems okay.

Fid has 1500 ping, leaves bunny solo bot lane as soraka, I come to help , get a double kill. Ashe dies 4 TIMES TO ANNIE IN MID, calling me noob yi for not ganking, WHEN SHE PUSHED ANNIE TO HER TOWER AND ATE NOCT GANK 4 TIMES IN A ROW.

Ashe ragequits, 3v5 now. God that was fun.

What did garen do wrong?

[Bunny of Faith]

Another is a game I played with Bunnyoffaith who will totally post in this thread because I know he's lurking here.

No I won't, shh! And 2v1 bot lane as Soraka vs Caitlyn and Janna... Yeah. :smallfrown:

[Math_Mage]

There isn't a single champion with an equivalent of Black Shield, which is arguably one of the best abilities in the game when paired with champs that have a weakness to being kited or CCed.

Olaf being an uncommon pick now has nothing to do with other champs outshining him(an AD Poppy is the closest thing to Olaf in the game and she is also extremely dangerous after a point), it has to do with Flash destroying someone with no gap closer and his weakness to counterjungling.

I'm not sure what definition of 'outshined' we're using here. Again, nobody can do exactly what Olaf does--not even to the extent that there are champs that replace Morgana. But there are many champs that do the things you pick Olaf to do (jungle fast, do lots of damage, take lots of damage, shut down a squishy, clean up late fights) better than Olaf does.

[Mutant Bunny]

3v3 teams should have a dedicated jungler or at least someone with a Smite, capable of clearing the camps quickly. If you duolane, your duolane should be on top for Dragon control and top jungle control. Top jungle has the most valuable camps in the two "small" buff camps. The speedbuff is also godlike for ganking or escaping.

Duly noted.


In normal 3v3, it often pays to get the top lane with a champ capable of clearing the jungle early; Anivia, Udyr, Irelia, the like. Then you can lane and run to jungle as soon as you're high enough level to hold it (just make sure your lane is held). But if you can, it's stronger to just have a real jungler ganking early. In 3v3, a jungler can actually outlevel solo lanes for a few moments.

Yes, the bottom brush crap is something some idiot once did and everyone copied and it's just about the most retarded place to try to ambush people in. It's one of the big reasons the normal queue is so hilariously stupid. Any of the jungle brushes is better. My team usually goes to the top jungle to control the buffs and look for an opportunity to steal the top jungle against a team with a jungler who starts in the middle.

I have yet to do ranked TT, but pretty much every normal game I play starts up with the rush to the brush. Let's see what some good jungle farm and early ganks can do...


Duo top is absolutely stronger than duo bot; duo bot is only for red control but top controls it quite fine too (especially if you have blinkers) and also controls the super valuable camps in the top jungle. Botlane is also harder to gank since there are no back entrances to the lane aside from the one at the towers so with a simple ward in the middle, it's quite safe to lane while top lane has two entrances in the rear of the lane making for easy ganks.

Also duly noted.


It's worth noting that good teamcomps are far from as simple as people think. Yes, Tanky DPS is good but a well-played team with controlling champions and DPS or mage is going to trump them. Something like Alistar/Taric/Corki is insanely strong, for example. Or Anivia/Jarvan/Warwick. Or Miss Fortune/Ryze/Trundle. Or some such; in general, you want at least one tanky type in the teams to catch people but champs that truly dominate TT are champs with tons of ranged low level burst (Vayne, MF, Corki, Annie, Anivia, etc.). All of them have sides and sides; Anivia is my most played champion and her Wall is incredibly powerful in 3s but on the flipside she does have more mana problems than most on the map since there's no blue buff. She's still very strong but not The Only™. Also, it's worth noting that blinks are pretty valuable in 3s since comparatively they cover more distance than on other maps due to the abundance of walls you wanna blink over in the map (Ezreal, Corki, Kassadin, Gragas, etc. really love this).

One thing to note is that when you have only 3 champs, you really, really want crowd control. Not only does that stop you from getting facerolled by a random Katarina/Master Yi/Tryndamere, it's also just so key to initiate fights and pin enemies down. I generally avoid champions without hard crowd control in 3v3; while few of them are really good (Karma has no significant CC for example, and she's really strong; many of the top champs like Nunu, Rumble & co. also only have slows), you really can't afford many low CC champions when you only have 3 champions total. This is part of the reason AD carries are so hard to fit into comps; they tend to come with little to no CC in and of themselves. Part of the reason why I prefer Vayne; she's mobile, high burst and Condemn is a rather reliable stun especially in 3v3.

I played a few TT games with someone who ran tank kennen. Oh, the stuns! Another time, I ran tank Jarvan and he played mage kennen. We won that game, too.


Triforce is the most commonly used build; Triforce -> Tanky. The 250 HP you get outta it is far from trivial. You can certainly build more damage but that tends to skip your tankiness too far down the line making you of relatively little use earlier on when you can't really get in there.

That's why I was thinking I'd get a tanky item or two between Wriggle's and the cleaver. It just seems to me that Trundle wants to do as much damage as possible while contaminate and his pillar are up, and as good as sheen is on someone like Nasus, I don't think it's worth if Trundle only gets the sheen effect once or twice per engagement. Maybe I'll just grab phage and build it into a mallet later...

[Baxter190]

Is Wukong worth buying? I've only recently started, and I'm not sure who are some of the better champions. Could someone help me out?

[Tono]

Is Wukong worth buying? I've only recently started, and I'm not sure who are some of the better champions. Could someone help me out?

I haven't played him yet, but I know a lot of people who like to monkey around on him.

[tribble]

I get Philosopher's for my mana, personally. Serves me well enough for laning.

How's the rest of my build?

[Math_Mage]

How's the rest of my build?

Triforce-tanky has been the thing to do forever. IMO skip the Manamune and build Catalyst --> BVeil or Aegis. But it's a minor point of difference.

[FantomFang]

How's the rest of my build?

For Nasus, I'm fond of starting out Regrowth + 1, rushing a philo and maybe boots 1 at first back. From there, finish Merc Treads and a Heart of Gold to further enhance his lategame potential. After that, it's a lot more dependent on enemy team. I start building triforce, almost always getting sheen first, but sometimes I have to delay it a bit to get a bit more tanky depending on the route the game is progressing. In general though, this build has served me well with him:

Regrowth + 1
Philo/Boots 1
Heart of Gold
Merc Treads
Triforce (Sheen first, depends on other two)
+ Tank as needed

[Cainen]

But there are many champs that do the things you pick Olaf to do (jungle fast, do lots of damage, take lots of damage, shut down a squishy, clean up late fights) better than Olaf does.
That's not what you pick Olaf to do. You pick him to counter CC heavy teams that have a jungler that simply can't counterjungle Olaf or you pick him when you have a team that can reliably get you fed, since Olaf scales hard.

[Mutant Bunny]

For Nasus, I'm fond of starting out Regrowth + 1, rushing a philo and maybe boots 1 at first back. From there, finish Merc Treads and a Heart of Gold to further enhance his lategame potential. After that, it's a lot more dependent on enemy team. I start building triforce, almost always getting sheen first, but sometimes I have to delay it a bit to get a bit more tanky depending on the route the game is progressing. In general though, this build has served me well with him:

Regrowth + 1
Philo/Boots 1
Heart of Gold
Merc Treads
Triforce (Sheen first, depends on other two)
+ Tank as needed

This, though I think I tend to get sheen earlier. It makes farming his Q easier.

I'd probably forget about Doran's items altogether on Nasus. The longer you have the gold-farming items, the more you get out of them, and getting a doran's item over the regrowth pendent just means you have to wait that much longer to get your philo stone.

[Volatar]

No, I'm suggesting that Lux is easier to build a team around and easier to play and more viable overall because she doesn't have to get in the danger zone to throw out her burst.

As opposed to Morgana, who does?

Welll then :smallbiggrin:

BRB, buying Morgana, instalocking her in Ranked SoloQ, and playing this song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8rZWw9HE7o) on loop the whole time.

[Dogmantra]

sooooo

you definitely build AP Galio now, too much damage reduction, get a Rylai's or something maybe for health

With a Chalice, Treads, Hat and Abysmal Sceptre, the first tick of your Bulwark?
Heals you for 215 health. Awwww yeah. :smallcool:

[Silverraptor]

sooooo

you definitely build AP Galio now, too much damage reduction, get a Rylai's or something maybe for health

With a Chalice, Treads, Hat and Abysmal Sceptre, the first tick of your Bulwark?
Heals you for 215 health. Awwww yeah. :smallcool:

Do you have a new build for it?

[Baxter190]

I haven't played him yet, but I know a lot of people who like to monkey around on him.

Iseewhatyoudidthere.

Anywho, anyone wanna do a couple games together? My handle is Thefettered.

[Dogmantra]

Do you have a new build for it?

Yeah, Chalice, Treads, Hat, Abysmal Sceptre then either more hats or Rylai's

[EternalMelon]

Yeah, Chalice, Treads, Hat, Abysmal Sceptre then either more hats or Rylai's

Perchance he means skill order?

[Silverraptor]

Yeah, Chalice, Treads, Hat, Abysmal Sceptre then either more hats or Rylai's

So, Rylais as 5th item?:smallconfused:

[Dogmantra]

So, Rylais as 5th item?:smallconfused:

If you don't get more hats, sure.

[littlebottom]

when i play jax, and i end up in a lane opposite Xin, i die horribly and feed. its happened 3 times now, everytime im opposing xin in a lane, Is xin just a perfect counter to jax or something?:smallconfused:

[Sohala]

I think, which means I could be wrong, that xin's attacks while under his three hit combo don't miss or dodge, or so it seems when playing teemo.

[Dogmantra]

I think, which means I could be wrong, that xin's attacks while under his three hit combo don't miss or dodge, or so it seems when playing teemo.

He doesn't deal damage with his hits, but it'll still knockup.

[Inhuman Bot]

Yeah, I decided to forget about premades and just instalock sona, it worked out.

Holy god, I love the draft pick music.

Of course, I have lost every game, and it's because of Jax. Aside from banning him, which isn't my perogative, what can I do to counter him?

Also, I think I need to learn to play nasus well, instead of just sort of acceptable. I've been starting with doran's blade for the extra damage, so I can last hit more easily, and getting Manamune for the mana. (I know manamune isn't amazing, but I don't really like the chalice riot recommends. I need mana NOW in a teamfight, not over the next thirty seconds. I do feel he needs a mana item to freely farm.) Sheen seems non-negotiable on him. After getting Sheen and manamune I go for tank items. It seems to be okay, but I get the feeling that Nasus is just that good and it's not my build being good.

You don't need manamune, chalice is bad on everyone. Triforce, Aegis, tanky for Nasus is the way to go.

[Mutant Bunny]

So I ended my Normals losing streak earlier: Poppy, Ryze, Sona, Orianna, and Trundle (me) vs Trundle, Nasus, Caitlyn, Taric, and Heimer. You may note that 4 of the 5 enemies are currently free-to-play, and I think that's probably why they lost-- most of them didn't know how to use their champions correctly.

As it turned out, Nasus and Trundle were both in top lane, pushing Poppy all the way to her tower. Cait was in mid, out-harassing Ryze, and Heimer and Taric (who opened with a mana manipulator) pushing Orianna and Sona to their turret, too. Put Trundle in the jungle, and Nasus has a good chance to farm top. Put Heimer in mid, and Ryze will get destroyed. Put Caitlyn and a support together and watch the enemy die. As it turned out, though, all the lanes being pushed to our turret meant that they were always primed for ganking, which is what I did, netting first blood, a series of assists, and two uncontested dragons. The enemy took all three of our outer turrets, but they ended up surrendering and blaming each other for being terrible. I netted a 10-1-7 score. :smallcool:

Also, I'm pretty sure Heimer took ghost and flash as his summoner spells :smallconfused:

The game's outcome supports my general theory about Trundle: his entire playstyle revolves around the gank: throw all your abilities at an enemy and do as much auto-attack damage as possible before they escape. It's part of why I'll probably always get merc treads on him: he needs to do as much damage as possible while his spells are in effect, and minimizing the enemy CC helps him do that.

[Inhuman Bot]

S

Also, I'm pretty sure Heimer took ghost and flash as his summoner spells :smallconfused:

9/10 times those are the best summoner spells on every hero. The tenth time is probably Flash/Smite or Flash/CV.

I wish people would just accept SS instead of MIA after I explain it to them instead of complaining about it being stupid.

[Bunny of Faith]

9/10 times those are the best summoner spells on every hero. The tenth time is probably Flash/Smite or Flash/CV.

I wish people would just accept SS instead of MIA after I explain it to them instead of complaining about it being stupid.

Come over to EU West, SS is pretty much the default over here, from what I've seen so far. :smallcool:

[Cainen]

The game's outcome supports my general theory about Trundle: his entire playstyle revolves around the gank: throw all your abilities at an enemy and do as much auto-attack damage as possible before they escape.
You really shouldn't open with your pillar; the CC reduction from Contaminate(and Merc's Treads, if you're fed early enough) and the speed boost is more than enough to get you to your target unless they're not really a champ that you can gank(which basically means Corki, Tristana, Kassadin, and LeBlanc). Nine times out of ten, you're going to make them blow Flash with just this alone. You pillar them AFTER they Flash away and you're almost guaranteed to get a kill.

[Mutant Bunny]

9/10 times those are the best summoner spells on every hero. The tenth time is probably Flash/Smite or Flash/CV.

If you're a mage who's not planning on getting blue buff as often as it's available (i.e. you have a good jungler who will give it to you after their initial clear :smallamused:), I'd say take clarity over ghost. Otherwise, stick with the stuff that won't drop off in usefulness in the late game.


I wish people would just accept SS instead of MIA after I explain it to them instead of complaining about it being stupid.

It is easier to type, and it's not like it doesn't appear in their chat. Some people just want to blame someone else for their mistakes.

[Dogmantra]

If you're a mage who's not planning on getting blue buff as often as it's available (i.e. you have a good jungler who will give it to you after their initial clear :smallamused:), I'd say take clarity over ghost. Otherwise, stick with the stuff that won't drop off in usefulness in the late game.
clarity morde clarity kennen
huehue

[toasty]

If you're a mage who's not planning on getting blue buff as often as it's available (i.e. you have a good jungler who will give it to you after their initial clear :smallamused:), I'd say take clarity over ghost. Otherwise, stick with the stuff that won't drop off in usefulness in the late game.

Funny thing: Stonewall ran a bunch of Custom games and discovered that players that use clarity are, upon his observation, the WORST players in the game. Take it for what you will, but any time I see Clarity I go: "Okay, this guy isn't that good."

Also: Exhaust/Flash is really good when fighting against Carries. I eat enemy carries with my Exhaust/Flash Gangplank.

[term1nally s1ck]

flash ignite is better on a mage.

flash exhaust is better on tanky dps.

flash cv better on support

flash smite jungler.

flash exhaust is as good as flash ghost on a carry.

[Inhuman Bot]

Come over to EU West, SS is pretty much the default over here, from what I've seen so far. :smallcool:

I gave my account away in this very thread :smalltongue:



If you're a mage who's not planning on getting blue buff as often as it's available (i.e. you have a good jungler who will give it to you after their initial clear :smallamused:), I'd say take clarity over ghost. Otherwise, stick with the stuff that won't drop off in usefulness in the late game.


Clarity sort of sucks because you only need it if you can't manage your mana.



Funny thing: Stonewall ran a bunch of Custom games and discovered that players that use clarity are, upon his observation, the WORST players in the game. Take it for what you will, but any time I see Clarity I go: "Okay, this guy isn't that good."

Which is why this is true.

I

It is easier to type, and it's not like it doesn't appear in their chat. Some people just want to blame someone else for their mistakes.

Specifically, it lets you call out a missing person while keeping your fingers on both your mouse and QWER by using the numpad enter key.

[Mutant Bunny]

Clarity sort of sucks because you only need it if you can't manage your mana.

Point taken. :smallredface:

But it doesn't change the fact that their Heimer was sub-par. :smallbiggrin:


Which is why this is true.

Before I discovered philo stone, I used to take clarity on my solo top characters-- Nasus, Jarvan, etc. nowadays, if no one else has clairvoyance, I tend to grab it.


You really shouldn't open with your pillar; the CC reduction from Contaminate(and Merc's Treads, if you're fed early enough) and the speed boost is more than enough to get you to your target unless they're not really a champ that you can gank(which basically means Corki, Tristana, Kassadin, and LeBlanc). Nine times out of ten, you're going to make them blow Flash with just this alone. You pillar them AFTER they Flash away and you're almost guaranteed to get a kill.

My point is that sheen procs really don't seem all that useful on Trundle. Maybe some number-crunching is in order...

I do tend to use the pillar a bit early, though. Meh. If I were that good, I'd have actually won a ranked game by now :smallbiggrin:

[toasty]

My point is that sheen procs really don't seem all that useful on Trundle. Maybe some number-crunching is in order...


Sheen procs every 3 seconds maximum. Trundle has a spammable on-hit ability on his Q. Sheen is really good on Trundle.

The problem is... Phage is just better. And Frozen Mallet/Atmas is amazing.

Also: Greatest Ranked game ever:
I screw up and RANDOM sivir. I'm like "Oh ****." Luckily, I actually know how to play sivir. We have 3 Carries (Trynd, Vayne and Me) so I figure we can win if we survive laning and get fed. I proceed to FEED leblanc mid and feel really bad. There lee sin D/Cs so we have some gap time to recover from bad laning.

I go top and die SEVEN more times. I'm 0/9/0 my team is like "report sivir for feeding." I'm like, "Im not worth the gold it takes to kill me, just push bottom when I die." We finally all go mid and get kills and an inhib. We are now winning pretty hard. We get baron and push to win. I end 2/9/4 and feel like a boss. :smallcool:

[Inhuman Bot]

Sheen procs every 3 seconds maximum. Trundle has a spammable on-hit ability on his Q. Sheen is really good on Trundle.

The problem is... Phage is just better. And Frozen Mallet/Atmas is amazing.

Also: Greatest Ranked game ever:
I screw up and RANDOM sivir. I'm like "Oh ****." Luckily, I actually know how to play sivir. We have 3 Carries (Trynd, Vayne and Me) so I figure we can win if we survive laning and get fed. I proceed to FEED leblanc mid and feel really bad. There lee sin D/Cs so we have some gap time to recover from bad laning.

I go top and die SEVEN more times. I'm 0/9/0 my team is like "report sivir for feeding." I'm like, "Im not worth the gold it takes to kill me, just push bottom when I die." We finally all go mid and get kills and an inhib. We are now winning pretty hard. We get baron and push to win. I end 2/9/4 and feel like a boss. :smallcool:

This sounds like someone on the other team telling the story of the game I just played.

[Mtg_player_zach]

You really shouldn't open with your pillar; the CC reduction from Contaminate(and Merc's Treads, if you're fed early enough) and the speed boost is more than enough to get you to your target unless they're not really a champ that you can gank(which basically means Corki, Tristana, Kassadin, and LeBlanc). Nine times out of ten, you're going to make them blow Flash with just this alone. You pillar them AFTER they Flash away and you're almost guaranteed to get a kill.

Oh, god. This is the worst thing ever. You are jungler, and your mid is losing to someone you can't possibly gank. Like kassadin or corki or something, and it's just like, FFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUU. They are like come gank my lane, and it's like, well, I can't. You tell Ashe to lead with her arrow for ganks, and she misses and then dies. And then you lose because Corki is killing everything.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

3v3 as Karma, with Lee Sin and Wukong.

I took less than 3000 damage in the whole game. Other team got one kill all game, while Lee Sin got 11 out of our 18.

Also, my build is nice and color-coordinated.

Doran's Ring, Stompers, Catalyst, Philo, Needlessly Large Rod. All blue and purpley.

[9mm]

Sheen procs every 3 seconds maximum. Trundle has a spammable on-hit ability on his Q. Sheen is really good on Trundle.

The problem is... Phage is just better. And Frozen Mallet/Atmas is amazing.


Thing is though, early sheen is burst that Trundle desperately needs and phage's slow is covered by red buff. Phage is great on Trundle, to be sure, but sheen is just a better buy right after Wriggles. Now I'm a Triforce trundle guy who gets Atmas dead last; and I can see frozen mallets appeal; but in my experience it is very, very hard to get away from Trundle once he's on you, and a mallet perma-slow just isn't worth the lower defenses and burst, especially since you have a power slow, 2 speed boosts, and a random chance to slow on hit anyway



Oh, god. This is the worst thing ever. You are jungler, and your mid is losing to someone you can't possibly gank. Like kassadin or corki or something, and it's just like, FFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUU. They are like come gank my lane, and it's like, well, I can't. You tell Ashe to lead with her arrow for ganks, and she misses and then dies. And then you lose because Corki is killing everything.
sometimes getting a kill is less important then just scaring the crap out of the enemy laner, I've ganked many lanes I know I can't kill just to make them back off and play a little more passively. It's funny how two quick passes can make a horrible lane match-up be ok-ish for your team, even without a single kill.

[Mutant Sheep]

Hai gais! Never played League of Legends, but have played my fair share of DOTA clones on Starcraft. Found a Let's Play on Youtube by a WoW dude, now talk about something new people will understand. Part uno (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBBQsdKzwhc&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL) and dos (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1mqV_jcmgU&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL). DISCUSS!:smalltongue:

[toasty]

Thing is though, early sheen is burst that Trundle desperately needs and phage's slow is covered by red buff. Phage is great on Trundle, to be sure, but sheen is just a better buy right after Wriggles. Now I'm a Triforce trundle guy who gets Atmas dead last; and I can see frozen mallets appeal; but in my experience it is very, very hard to get away from Trundle once he's on you, and a mallet perma-slow just isn't worth the lower defenses and burst, especially since you have a power slow, 2 speed boosts, and a random chance to slow on hit anyway

Lower defense? Wait wut? How is Triforce lower defense than Frozen Mallet?

The thing about Frozen Mallet is that it goes with Atmas so great, its amazing.

And you'd be surprised how often people escape a trundle. There is no such thing as overkill.

[Mtg_player_zach]

Thing is though, early sheen is burst that Trundle desperately needs and phage's slow is covered by red buff. Phage is great on Trundle, to be sure, but sheen is just a better buy right after Wriggles. Now I'm a Triforce trundle guy who gets Atmas dead last; and I can see frozen mallets appeal; but in my experience it is very, very hard to get away from Trundle once he's on you, and a mallet perma-slow just isn't worth the lower defenses and burst, especially since you have a power slow, 2 speed boosts, and a random chance to slow on hit anyway



sometimes getting a kill is less important then just scaring the crap out of the enemy laner, I've ganked many lanes I know I can't kill just to make them back off and play a little more passively. It's funny how two quick passes can make a horrible lane match-up be ok-ish for your team, even without a single kill.

If the kassadin or corki is good it doesn't matter. They know you can't do anything. If you are trundle or olaf or somebody, you really can't do anything to them. If you try you'll just end up taking damage/dying/baiting your own teammate into thinking they can take the kassadin with you there even though you literally cannot touch the kassadin. You show up, the guy you are laning for thinks, hey, I'm supposed to attack now, and dies.

[Mutant Bunny]

Sheen procs every 3 seconds maximum. Trundle has a spammable on-hit ability on his Q. Sheen is really good on Trundle.

2 seconds, actually... and Rabid Bite has a 4-second cooldown, not counting masteries, which is actually the same as Siphoning Strike at maximum level. The difference is, Nasus doesn't have an attack speed steroid like Trundle does. At mid to high levels, Trundle will actually be autoattacking much more often than he uses his bite, thanks to the 60% AS boost from contaminate. Sheen amounts to another autoattack every 3.5 seconds or so. The only time sheen will be better than another AD or AS item is at low levels, when what Trundle REALLY wants is wriggle's anyway.

Moreover, unlike Nasus, Trundle can't use his Q on turrets, so he can't reliably get the sheen procs when attacking a turret. He's better off building more attack speed and damage.


The problem is... Phage is just better. And Frozen Mallet/Atmas is amazing.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I'm done building trinity force on Trundle.

[balistafreak]

If the kassadin or corki is good it doesn't matter. They know you can't do anything. If you are trundle or olaf or somebody, you really can't do anything to them. If you try you'll just end up taking damage/dying/baiting your own teammate into thinking they can take the kassadin with you there even though you literally cannot touch the kassadin. You show up, the guy you are laning for thinks, hey, I'm supposed to attack now, and dies.

Well, the first solution is to play a jungler with a built in flash/gap closer. I've had a love for jungling Jarvan and Xin Zhao even over constantly-banned-in-solo-queue-ranked Gangplank now simply because the ability to move with a flash-effect is priceless. Is Corki pushing? Run into view, he Valkyries away, no problem, Audacious Charge! Flash away? Well, if he isn't yet behind his tower (which does occasionally happen if the Corki gets cocky and thinks "I'll just Valkyrie away"), Flash with his Flash (that's what it's there for after all) and continue beating his face in.

And of course, if they don't have a built in flash effect, you Audacious Charge with their Flash and use your Flash to secure the kill if need be.

Other than that... well, you're hoping that your laner can survive the first initiation with the enemy laner. If they die after you get into position but before you just get into range to attack, the lane isn't gankable in the first place: at that level of health, they probably need to be relieved for healing/buying more than they need a gank.

All things said and done, though, the reason Corki/Kassadin are strong laners is in part due to their ungankability. So... yeah. Have fun trying. There's no easy way to guarantee it.

My only advice is to "bleed" them of mana - every time you finish camps on one side of mid, take a walk through the mid lane, even if you don't expect to land a hit. Merely poking your head forces him to prepare for the worse, forcing that Valkyrie or Riftwalk and bleeding mana, which is that much less mana for skills to be used against your laner.

And don't argue that he'll learn to not use it against you, because if he doesn't then you just beat his face in anyways. :smalltongue:

[toasty]

Trying to gank a Corki mid is kinda like trying to solo baron. Its possible. But it requires a very specific hero/set up and probably isn't worth your time.

Of course, this is why you just send Orianna or Brand mid, cuz they are really, really good laners.

[Mutant Bunny]

My only advice is to "bleed" them of mana - every time you finish camps on one side of mid, take a walk through the mid lane, even if you don't expect to land a hit. Merely poking your head forces him to prepare for the worse, forcing that Valkyrie or Riftwalk and bleeding mana, which is that much less mana for skills to be used against your laner.

And don't argue that he'll learn to not use it against you, because if he doesn't then you just beat his face in anyways. :smalltongue:

This. If you can't kill them, at least limit their capacity to keep harassing your teammate. Most champions find it hard to poke when they're out of mana. Even if they have tear of the goddess or the lovely items it builds into, they might be more nervous about extending if they think you might be waiting in the brush. Of course, they might just get some wards...

[toasty]

This. If you can't kill them, at least limit their capacity to keep harassing your teammate. Most champions find it hard to poke when they're out of mana. Even if they have tear of the goddess or the lovely items it builds into, they might be more nervous about extending if they think you might be waiting in the brush. Of course, they might just get some wards...

To be fair, most good champions are very hard to do this. And if they hav emana problems they're probably getting blue buff early. Giving the 2nd blue buff to Zilean or Brand is a really, really good idea if you can afford it.

[Arcanoi]

2 seconds, actually... and Rabid Bite has a 4-second cooldown, not counting masteries, which is actually the same as Siphoning Strike at maximum level. The difference is, Nasus doesn't have an attack speed steroid like Trundle does. At mid to high levels, Trundle will actually be autoattacking much more often than he uses his bite, thanks to the 60% AS boost from contaminate. Sheen amounts to another autoattack every 3.5 seconds or so. The only time sheen will be better than another AD or AS item is at low levels, when what Trundle REALLY wants is wriggle's anyway.


You can proc Sheen with every single spell you cast, thus it's an extra autoattack every two seconds for the first 12 or so seconds, for about a 35% increase in overall damage for Trundle over that time.

One must also remember that Sheen is 1260 gold. Sheen is literally the best gold-to-effect item in the game. No other item, not even a BF Sword combined with Trundle's steroid, increases his damage so efficiently. Except you know, Atmas. But that's because Atmas is OP.

[Dralnu]

Running a team global on skype:
Ezreal (me)
Karthus
Lux
Gangplank
Ashe

We're all packing Clairvoyance. Starting the game now. :smallamused:

[Mutant Bunny]

You can proc Sheen with every single spell you cast, thus it's an extra autoattack every two seconds for the first 12 or so seconds, for about a 35% increase in overall damage for Trundle over that time.

Contaminate lasts 8 seconds, and laying it down in the right spot is important for closing the gap between you and the gank-ee, and then you want to lay down rabid bite as soon as you hit with your first autoattack to get the most effect out of it (otherwise, you'll get several autoattacks at less than your full AD). That's one proc, and one more when you lay down your pillar, and one more on your next bite, assuming you time it just right at the end of sheen's cooldown. That's three procs (four, if you use your ultimate at the end of a gank, when you'll actually get the least out of the armor/MR drain), and if they're not dead by then, they're under their turret. Trundle just can't cast spells every two seconds without hurting his overall damage output. He doesn't use sheen optimally.


One must also remember that Sheen is 1260 gold. Sheen is literally the best gold-to-effect item in the game. No other item, not even a BF Sword combined with Trundle's steroid, increases his damage so efficiently. Except you know, Atmas. But that's because Atmas is OP.

Trundle's ultimate drains a percent of armor and MR. While under the ult, anyone but a super-armored tank will have pretty low armor just from the initial drain. With a black cleaver (from which you can get two stacks as soon as you reach the enemy) or another armor penetration item, you'll be dealing true damage.

Even without the ult, if you can get a cleaver stack or two onto a enemy, they'll be in far more trouble than if you'd just dealt another two or three auto-attacks worth of damage from a sheen. With the 30% AS from cleaver and the AD boost, you're already dealing more than you would with a sheen, even without the armor debuff.

As for the AP and mana from sheen, well, the only thing Trundle gets from AP is his ult, and that's a .6 ratio. So 60% of the 30 AP from trinity force, applied twice, minus magic resistance, can still only be applied every minute or so, as opposed to a straight AD item, which gets applied with every autoattack.

Yeah, sheen is a good, even great item on some champions, but the more I think about it, the more it seems that Trundle benefits far more from AD, AS, and armor penetration. His kit revolves around giving him more chances to autoattack, and any number of items can facilitate that better than sheen. It's great for you if you're Lux and can proc your lich bane on every autoattack, but not every champion can afford to spread out their spells like that.

[toasty]

Trundle's ultimate drains a percent of armor and MR. While under the ult, anyone but a super-armored tank will have pretty low armor just from the initial drain. With a black cleaver (from which you can get two stacks as soon as you reach the enemy) or another armor penetration item, you'll be dealing true damage.

Even without the ult, if you can get a cleaver stack or two onto a enemy, they'll be in far more trouble than if you'd just dealt another two or three auto-attacks worth of damage from a sheen. With the 30% AS from cleaver and the AD boost, you're already dealing more than you would with a sheen, even without the armor debuff.


The problem with this is that you just invested 2k+ gold into a single offensive item on a melee hero who has no instant gap closer. What that means is that you're probably just gonna get kited and die. If you had instead built a Sheen and then a Bveil/Sunfire+Atmas, you'd be doing less damage in theory, yes, but you'd be living longer and thus doing more actual damage.

Basically there is never a reason these days to go Warmogs/Frozen Mallet+Atmas on every melee dps hero these days, Atmas is just too strong.

[Dralnu]

Team global went up against team... teleport rally of all things. Alistar teleported mid, dropped a ward, tried to bait us as their team TP'd in from behind the ward. We Aced them and then proceeded to win. Team global ROCKS mid. Wow.

Next up: Team AOE.
Kennen (me)
Ammumu
Galio
Fiddlesticks
Gangplank

[Arcanoi]

Contaminate lasts 8 seconds, and laying it down in the right spot is important for closing the gap between you and the gank-ee, and then you want to lay down rabid bite as soon as you hit with your first autoattack to get the most effect out of it (otherwise, you'll get several autoattacks at less than your full AD). That's one proc, and one more when you lay down your pillar, and one more on your next bite, assuming you time it just right at the end of sheen's cooldown. That's three procs (four, if you use your ultimate at the end of a gank, when you'll actually get the least out of the armor/MR drain), and if they're not dead by then, they're under their turret. Trundle just can't cast spells every two seconds without hurting his overall damage output. He doesn't use sheen optimally.


If you watch, say, Saintvicious, widely considered to be the best Trundle in the game (He doesn't play Trundle much anymore, since the meta moved away from ganking) you'll notice that he does actually set up this rhythm. Contaminate to gap close, auto-attack, immediately Bite to reset the auto-attack and proc sheen again, Pillar and/or Ult, and keep Biting. It's not the most optimal, but Bite proccing Sheen every 4 seconds is already pretty damn good.



Trundle's ultimate drains a percent of armor and MR. While under the ult, anyone but a super-armored tank will have pretty low armor just from the initial drain.


As it's percentage, rather than flat, this isn't really true.



With a black cleaver (from which you can get two stacks as soon as you reach the enemy) or another armor penetration item, you'll be dealing true damage.

Even without the ult, if you can get a cleaver stack or two onto a enemy, they'll be in far more trouble than if you'd just dealt another two or three auto-attacks worth of damage from a sheen. With the 30% AS from cleaver and the AD boost, you're already dealing more than you would with a sheen, even without the armor debuff.


Well, yes. Cleaver is going to compare favorably to Sheen. Because Cleaver is 2.25X as expensive as Sheen. And rushing a Cleaver is bad because it gives no survivability.



As for the AP and mana from sheen, well, the only thing Trundle gets from AP is his ult, and that's a .6 ratio. So 60% of the 30 AP from trinity force, applied twice, minus magic resistance, can still only be applied every minute or so, as opposed to a straight AD item, which gets applied with every autoattack.


Sheen would be worth its cost if it gave no Mana or AP.



Yeah, sheen is a good, even great item on some champions, but the more I think about it, the more it seems that Trundle benefits far more from AD, AS, and armor penetration. His kit revolves around giving him more chances to autoattack, and any number of items can facilitate that better than sheen.

Trinity Force gives Trundle literally everything he needs. Against certain teams, or with certain comps, it's not viable because you need more survivability. But if you have the chance to build it, it's by far the best item for him overall.

[toasty]

If you watch, say, Saintvicious, widely considered to be the best Trundle in the game (He doesn't play Trundle much anymore, since the meta moved away from ganking) you'll notice that he does actually set up this rhythm. Contaminate to gap close, auto-attack, immediately Bite to reset the auto-attack and proc sheen again, Pillar and/or Ult, and keep Biting. It's not the most optimal, but Bite proccing Sheen every 4 seconds is already pretty damn good.

theoddone is the guy that popularized Trundle in Tourement play, I thought. But whatever. Both him and saintvicious are amazing junglers and really know trundle.

[Mutant Bunny]

The problem with this is that you just invested 2k+ gold into a single offensive item on a melee hero who has no instant gap closer. What that means is that you're probably just gonna get kited and die. If you had instead built a Sheen and then a Bveil/Sunfire+Atmas, you'd be doing less damage in theory, yes, but you'd be living longer and thus doing more actual damage.

Kiting Trundle isn't easy, since he can just throw his pillar behind you. He doesn't have an instant gap closer, but he does have a solid slow that's particularly useful in enclosed spaces.


Basically there is never a reason these days to go Warmogs/Frozen Mallet+Atmas on every melee dps hero these days, Atmas is just too strong.

Like I said, I figured I would get phage after wriggles, then grab tanky items. I'd only rush cleaver if I was really fed, but for offense, I'd rather have cleaver-- or pretty much any AD item-- over sheen. My issue is with sheen, not tankiness.

[toasty]

Kiting Trundle isn't easy, since he can just throw his pillar behind you. He doesn't have an instant gap closer, but he does have a solid slow that's particularly useful in enclosed spaces.

This is where you have better positioning. DOnt' fight trundle in enclosed spaces. If they are forcing fights then you're probably already losing the game and thats a big problem. Heroes like Corki and Ashe should be fine against Trundle unless he's packing Exhaust, and if he's packing exhaust then he has no escapes, which is ANOTHER thing you should be using to your advantage. Kiting Trundle isn't EASY, but he is kiteable.


Like I said, I figured I would get phage after wriggles, then grab tanky items. I'd only rush cleaver if I was really fed, but for offense, I'd rather have cleaver-- or pretty much any AD item-- over sheen. My issue is with sheen, not tankiness.

I'd rather have a triforce, its a better item on Trundle. :smalltongue:

[Winthur]

Funny thing: Stonewall ran a bunch of Custom games and discovered that players that use clarity are, upon his observation, the WORST players in the game. Take it for what you will, but any time I see Clarity I go: "Okay, this guy isn't that good."

*flashback to two days ago*

Seyruun: "Djinn, are you sure about Clarity on Lux?"
Djinn: "Yes. Yes, I am perfectly sure."

:smallcool:

[Arcanoi]

*flashback to two days ago*

Seyruun: "Djinn, are you sure about Clarity on Lux?"
Djinn: "Yes. Yes, I am perfectly sure."

:smallcool:

From Toasty's observation, you could say that taking Clarity on Lux is really...

:smallcool:

illuminating.

[toasty]

*flashback to two days ago*

Seyruun: "Djinn, are you sure about Clarity on Lux?"
Djinn: "Yes. Yes, I am perfectly sure."

:smallcool:

Just because Djinn knows how to win his lane doesn't mean that clarity is still probably the worst spell in the game after Rally. :smalltongue:

I'd just take Yellow or Blue magan regen/lvl runes and then get Blue buff later.

[Inhuman Bot]

Just because Djinn knows how to win his lane doesn't mean that clarity is still probably the worst spell in the game after Rally. :smalltongue:

I'd just take Yellow or Blue magan regen/lvl runes and then get Blue buff later.

Seriously. Even Revive is better.

Edit: Maybe he's bad at managing his mana and the experience of not being out of mana every once and awhile rocked his world so he didn't waste his mana as much?

[Darth Mario]

Seriously. Even Revive is better.

Edit: Maybe he's bad at managing his mana and the experience of not being out of mana every once and awhile rocked his world so he didn't waste his mana as much?

Or maybe it's because Clarity can very easily be used to bait players into situations where they believe you to be out of mana, only to turn around and unload a full combo on them right after having hit 6. :smallmad:

You call it bad mana management, I call it more freaking damage.

[Spartacus]

Moreover, unlike Nasus, Trundle can't use his Q on turrets, so he can't reliably get the sheen procs when attacking a turret.

Well, you'll get at least one proc off on the turret, and it's rare that there isn't a minion around to bite when taking a turret.

[Arcanoi]

Or maybe it's because Clarity can very easily be used to bait players into situations where they believe you to be out of mana, only to turn around and unload a full combo on them right after having hit 6. :smallmad:

You call it bad mana management, I call it more freaking damage.

Clarity is a bad spell. Because you're taking Flash, that means you have Flash/Clarity (Or Ghost, I guess). No Exhaust, no Ignite, no CV. Compared to the utility of these spells, Clarity is just plain bad. The reason the gambit you described (And the similar Heal trick) works is because people face Clarity so rarely that they are often caught off-guard by it. Similarly, this gambit can be replicated by simply not running out of mana. Clarity is kid's gloves, they make up for your failings but stop you from performing at optimal levels.

If you want more damage, take Ignite.

[FantomFang]

So. I just had the most crazy game I've ever had as Ashe tonight. I ended 13/1/9 by the end after being 0/0/0 for quite a while. See, the thing was, they had no jungler, and they sent Morgana mid, and I went mid because I was the one most competently able to solo there. So we basically both farmed like mad (I was 100 CS at 12 mins or so), because neither of us could easily kill the other, and the lack of a jungler meant I never felt any pressure. So essentially they let me freefarm. Yeah. Once I started fighting I could tear through anybody on their team, even their 200 armor Leona. Especially so since the lack of a jungler meant the other four players on their team had very low farm relative to me (less than half on all) and of course Morgana's scaling is... pathetic compared to Ashe's by gold.

The mumble chat was so hilarious, as the others in the game will attest to. Both me and Olaf would go into situations that were normally suicidal and just not die. Chimaera went into a 1v5 with Olaf and picked off the 2 low health champions, and was very slowly dying to the others (he was tanking their entire team like a boss) when I showed up and we just cleaned em up. Hell, once laning stopped, I literally could and would solo any of them, no problem, even Akali. There was even a hilarious moment where Akali tried to jump on me and I killed her before she did more than 300 or so damage to me. Yeah.

I'm really bored right now so I wrote up a full summary of the events as I needed something to do while I worked my 3-6 AM desk clerk shift at my dorm. So feel free to read the wall of text below, if you so dare. The first spoiler has the game stats though, if you just want to see those.

EDIT: Akali was trolling a bit, so if her final build seems off that's why. When i destroyed her for her last death (or 2nd to last) she sold all her stuff and messed around with her items some.

http://i1017.photobucket.com/albums/af294/FantomFang/score.png
Game Notes

Farmed like hell early, 100 CS by 12 minutes in. Of course, I let the other mid laner farm like hell too, but Morgana does not scale NEARLY as well as an Ashe, so it works out to my benefit.
Only death at 16 minutes in. Stuck around to try and finish them at our turret when they had ganked and dove me, and it cost me my life, but that of their morgana as well.
At 18 minutes, the dominance begins, and I start to realize just how ahead I am with the massive damage I deal. 2/1/1.
19 Minute IE. That is extremely nice.
20 min mark, I hawkshot their blue, see Kayle there, immediately Arrow her, and Olaf is there to clean up. Second time we've killed Kayle before she can even ult. Oh, and Olaf gets to finish up the blue buff.
22 min mark - teamfight top. Amumu + Ashe ult and dmg = instagibbed Akali. Proceed to gib both Kayle and Leona shortly after. 5/1/2.
26 min mark - gank/teamfight mid. No real deaths, except I get a volley + AA crit off on an Kayle as she escaped to the tower to kill her from 40% hp. Yeah.
29 min mark - hilarity ensues. We take a baron, and chase after kayle/akali mid. Except I never see Kayle. They call for an arrow, and I try to arrow akali and fail...only to see my arrow hit kayle, who had just been re-revealed as we entered the bush she was escaping through. The funny pat though? They were calling for an arrow on Kayle. And I thought I missed (akali) and the arrow hit the real target (Kayle). Lol.
31 min mark - a rolling fight around top's 2 turrets on their side leads to a couple deaths for us, and a death for them, with us scattering except for Olaf and Ashe as we rush to help. Olaf runs in and insta-gibs Kayle, and starts fighting the other four. Solo. And lives. Gets another one too. And then I show up (and WW) and easily clean up the rest of them. And I'm now ripping through every single one of them, as I have Zerkers/Dorans/Dorans/IE/PD/Negatron, with about 1k gold after the clean up.

Over the next two minutes Kayle comes out of base, and I drop her with nary a point of damage. I ult Karma at her turret and easily dive her with WW for the kill, and Akali/Leona show up to help after and WW backs off, but I stay and fight just out of tower range and kill Akali before she even gets off her full rotation (killed her after she Q'd and jumped, and possibly before she AA'd).

We start pushing inhibs. I'm just completely unstoppable. 11/1/8 Ashe with most farm in game, and the sidelane champs WAYYYY behind in farm, only the poorly scaling morgana with anything comparable.

Best part of the game. I dive their 200+ armor Leona, under their tower, and win. In fact, I was CRUSHING her. Then she turned around and doubled stunned me in the turret fire. I get one more shot off and finish her (yeah, 1 more AA before stun and I wouldn't have taken like any damage) and the run from the tower. I live with exactly...2 HP.

2 freaking HP.
Lol.

And so we win. And I finish 13/1/9. Most fed as Ashe I've ever been relative to my opponents. Seriously.

[Ziren]

So, I couldn't report another summoner for flaming today. When I asked in Chat why that was, he answered that he was a RIOT member.

However, his forum account doesn't show any signs of him being a RIOT employee. Also, he flames just as much on the forums as he does in-game.

Is there be another reason why I couldn't report him, or are the alt accounts of RIOT employees actually protected from reporting? I would be really disappointed if the company actually held a protective hand over employees that insult the community via alt accounts...

[Draken]

Given that there was a big uproar about an intern who was a prick ingame and the guy got fired for it, I don't think that is what happened. I am guessing it was a bug of some sort.

[Dogmantra]

Trying to gank a Corki mid is kinda like trying to solo baron. Its possible. But it requires a very specific hero/set up and probably isn't worth your time.
So the fact I killed Westrice when he was Corki mid means you should pretty much be signing the divorce papers so you can marry me instead of HotshotGG, right?


Running a team global on skype:
Ezreal (me)
Karthus
Lux
Gangplank
Ashe

We're all packing Clairvoyance. Starting the game now. :smallamused:
Silly Dralnu, Lux isn't global and you all take Teleport on Team Global! Actually, that seems like a completely different idea from the typical Team Global, which pretty much relies on its core of Pantheon, Twisted Fate and Shen to be everywhere all at once, and the two guys that can't be have teleport oh and also they're Karthus and Ashe. Your one seems more like "Hey guys we can kill you without having to even go near you so just let us push, 'kay?"


Clarity is a bad spell. Because you're taking Flash, that means you have Flash/Clarity (Or Ghost, I guess). No Exhaust, no Ignite, no CV.
You missed Teleport and Revive for spells that let you win your lane super well.

[Spartacus]

If they claimed to be a RIOT member and you have a screenshot of said claim, submit it to Customer Service. They don't take kindly to impersonating RIOT staff, and if he is RIOT, well, last time someone abused their powers, they got fired.

[Inhuman Bot]

So, I couldn't report another summoner for flaming today. When I asked in Chat why that was, he answered that he was a RIOT member.

However, his forum account doesn't show any signs of him being a RIOT employee. Also, he flames just as much on the forums as he does in-game.

Is there be another reason why I couldn't report him, or are the alt accounts of RIOT employees actually protected from reporting? I would be really disappointed if the company actually held a protective hand over employees that insult the community via alt accounts...

You can report Riot members.

[potatocubed]

You can report people without clicking the red exclamation point. You need to send an email to the customer support address ([email protected]) explaining what's up, and they'll register the report for you.

[Ziren]

Just an idea I just had... is it possible that you can't report people multiple times before their Tribunal was held, even when it's over separate games?

[Draken]

Just an idea I just had... is it possible that you can't report people multiple times before their Tribunal was held, even when it's over separate games?

Well. Given that tribunal cases tend to have 5-11 reports to be examined on any given offender... And that giving a burglar a grace period where he can't be indicted for invading people's homes and taking their stuff...

It sounds unlikely.

[Eldariel]

Well. Given that tribunal cases tend to have 5-11 reports to be examined on any given offender... And that giving a burglar a grace period where he can't be indicted for invading people's homes and taking their stuff...

It sounds unlikely.

You can't report the same guy multiple times the same day, at least. Dunno about any other restrictions, though.

[Mutant Bunny]

Well, you'll get at least one proc off on the turret, and it's rare that there isn't a minion around to bite when taking a turret.

True, but you don't get the bonus damage from the bite itself against the turret. You could cast bite, hit the turret (using the sheen proc), then target a minion with the bite. I also use pillar to slow down the approaching minion wave and proc sheen again.


If you watch, say, Saintvicious, widely considered to be the best Trundle in the game (He doesn't play Trundle much anymore, since the meta moved away from ganking) you'll notice that he does actually set up this rhythm. Contaminate to gap close, auto-attack, immediately Bite to reset the auto-attack and proc sheen again, Pillar and/or Ult, and keep Biting. It's not the most optimal, but Bite proccing Sheen every 4 seconds is already pretty damn good.

If the cooldown begins with the proc being applied and not the spell being cast, I don't think it quite works that way. It's still just 3 more autoattacks at best.

That said, I've been focusing entirely on the ganking/teamfight part of the game. In mid-game, sheen procs noticeably speed up your jungle and minion farming, especially against the dragon, when you can't count on your regular autoattacks. These could make sheen procs to be more useful than I've been making them out to be.


Trinity Force gives Trundle literally everything he needs. Against certain teams, or with certain comps, it's not viable because you need more survivability. But if you have the chance to build it, it's by far the best item for him overall.

By the time you've finished trinity force, I've turned phage into a frozen mallet and bought a chainmail for atma's.

[Math_Mage]

when i play jax, and i end up in a lane opposite Xin, i die horribly and feed. its happened 3 times now, everytime im opposing xin in a lane, Is xin just a perfect counter to jax or something?:smallconfused:

Not IME. Once you have Tabi, you can whale on Xin all day long. Even before then your harass should keep up with his. Jax is the counter to tanky DPS, not Xin. This is why Jax gets banned in high-level games--not because he's OP, but because he counters the current meta.


By the time you've finished trinity force, I've turned phage into a frozen mallet and bought a chainmail for atma's.

And you're not contributing as much to the team as Trinity Force Trundle, unless your team absolutely needs that pile of health in front.

[toasty]

Or maybe it's because Clarity can very easily be used to bait players into situations where they believe you to be out of mana, only to turn around and unload a full combo on them right after having hit 6. :smallmad:

You call it bad mana management, I call it more freaking damage.

What arcanoi said. It might work once. If they're dumb it'll work twice (and if they're dumb then it doesn't matter :smalltongue:) but getting 1 kill in lane isn't worth taking Clarity when Flash, Exhaust, Ghost, Revive, Teleport and Ignite all consistently get kills at all levels of play.

[balistafreak]

when i play jax, and i end up in a lane opposite Xin, i die horribly and feed. its happened 3 times now, everytime im opposing xin in a lane, Is xin just a perfect counter to jax or something?:smallconfused:

Xin is just extremely aggressive in lane. If you're not prepared for it, or don't have a champion that can meaningfully counter harass (see: Soraka), Xin will murder you.

Once, I laned against a Xin who had full AD runes or something, because he had 100+ AD before level 6. It was hell, but he stopped mattering mid game, due in part to his penchant for roaming. (Lane experience is good for you.)

But Jax in particular shouldn't have any problems against Xin - he should be able to trade harass, and possibly come out on top.

[Math_Mage]

Once, I laned against a Xin who had full AD runes or something, because he had 100+ AD before level 6. It was hell, but he stopped mattering mid game, due in part to his penchant for roaming. (Lane experience is good for you.)

This sounds like fun. I should give it a try.

...after I save up for Kennen, of course.

[Dogmantra]

Revive,

you're only saying that 'cause you fancy efdf


...after I save up for Kennen, of course.
dude, Kennen FotM is four sheens, zerker greaves (for more stuns) and an archangel's to get AP from all the mana

Clarity is actually a really good spell for learning what a character is capable of without having to worry about mana issues so much and without becoming too reliant on using a specific summoner spell set up (because you're going to stop using it once you've learnt to manage mana).

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Just because Djinn knows how to win his lane doesn't mean that clarity is still probably the worst spell in the game after Rally. :smalltongue:

Hell, I run Clarity and I'll agree readily with this. I just like it because although (contrary to Inhuman Bot's suggestion :smalltongue:) I'm really good at managing my mana, I love the fact that my enemies, more often than not, assume I'm helpless if I have no mana when I hit 6, no matter how low their health has dropped to my harass. Clarity + Snare + Laser out of the blue has netted me more kills than I care to remember. It also allows me a near-constant stream of harass without needing to back, which means I have more farm, and thus pick up my power items sooner. Sub-optimal by the numbers? Sure. Have I played the game long enough and with enough Summoner Spell combinations to know that I prefer Clarity on some champs? Hell yes.

Additionally, while I individually might be gimped a bit by not taking a better Summoner Spell, I'm a strong enough laner WITHOUT that stronger spell that my increases sustained harass in the lane actually gives my TEAM a greater advantage, depending on my character (Lux is one where I've found this to be true). I might be a bit sub-optimal, but Clarity allows me (and my lanemate, if any) the harass and zoning to basically dominate the lane completely, thus denying the enemy farm and/or securing kills that otherwise might not have been secured. All in all, the advantage really only disappears if the game extends long into the end-game, and I don't usually have that happen in my games.

I also carry Clarity on Cho'Gath for constant Rupture harass, and win most lanes than way. I SOMETIMES take it on Jarvan, but that's 'cause I'm a crazy person. The latter of those cases I'll happily admit is kinda really stupid, but, in my defense, in serious games I don't run Clarity Jarvan. :smallbiggrin:

So, in conclusion: is Clarity a bad summoner spell? Yes. Can it be useful in the hands of someone who knows when and how to use it, and bases their gameplay in the laning phase around the fact that they have it? Yes. Can it sometimes sustain a push, or provide the needed mana for an unexpected teamfight? Yes. All in all, it's not a great pick, but some players (on specific characters) can actually get a lot out of it. The problem most people have is that they disregard it as a bad spell, to be used when they run low on mana, rather than actually learning how to use it, and letting it become an intrinsic part of their kit. That leads to bad play...kinda like taking Flash and thinking of it ONLY as an escape mechanism, or using Ignite ONLY for damage rather than also for healing reduction. I can play all my "Clarity" characters both with and without Clarity to great effect, and I've noticed my playstyle changes drastically depending on whether or not I'm packing Clarity, 'cause I've learned how to build a game around the spell, and I know how my capabilities change when I have it and when I don't.

Hell...if Manti has let me take Clarity into a ranked game with him (which he has), you know I've got to be getting good results from it. :smallbiggrin:




*flashback to two days ago*

Seyruun: "Djinn, are you sure about Clarity on Lux?"
Djinn: "Yes. Yes, I am perfectly sure."

:smallcool:

That was the game I went 13/0/10 in, right? :smalltongue:

[Nargan]

How to absolutely destroy teemo's morale: an in-depth guide.

Play Caitlyn.

GG.

[Winthur]

How to absolutely destroy teemo's morale: an in-depth guide.

Play Caitlyn.

GG.

Get blinded.

George Georgallidis.

[potatocubed]

I just played my first game against human beings. (Effectively 4v4 because of leavers.)

I went 10/0/0.

As Morgana.

Man what

[Spartacus]

y u no Mumble, Potato?

[Necroticplague]

How to absolutely destroy teemo's morale: an in-depth guide.

Play Kog'maw.

GG.

Fixed that for you.

[tribble]

it occurs to me that yorick could potentially ruin a teemo's day by sending ghouls to facecheck the brush for him. Ha ha, your mushrooms arent so awesome now, are they?

[Fera Tian]

it occurs to me that yorick could potentially ruin a teemo's day by sending ghouls to facecheck the brush for him. Ha ha, your mushrooms arent so awesome now, are they?

Did you test it? Also, one would have to play yorick. =\

[Mutant Bunny]

Hmm... what is the general consensus on the use of the 4-minute potions? I know someone who starts Lux with a faerie charm (for philo) and blue (AP/CDR) pot, which leaves enough gold for a health potion to counter enemy pokes. I've tried it in bot games, and it seems to work decently well. I think it would be worth testing with other champions who build philo stone- grab mana regen and a stat booster to get you through to your first blue pill.

I'm also thinking about grabbing a red and/or green potion in midgame on my tanky DPS to help their damage output while building otherwise defensive items.

[Silverraptor]

So, apparently I can do pretty well as ashe. I may not be able to get early kills, but I can survive and farm really well now. I just need her more.

[Math_Mage]

Fixed that for you.

Kog'maw can't avoid getting kited with Move Quick and shrooms. Caitlyn has her net.


Hmm... what is the general consensus on the use of the 4-minute potions? I know someone who starts Lux with a faerie charm (for philo) and blue (AP/CDR) pot, which leaves enough gold for a health potion to counter enemy pokes. I've tried it in bot games, and it seems to work decently well. I think it would be worth testing with other champions who build philo stone- grab mana regen and a stat booster to get you through to your first blue pill.

I'm also thinking about grabbing a red and/or green potion in midgame on my tanky DPS to help their damage output while building otherwise defensive items.

If you can get a 250-gold advantage on your opponent by using a blue pot, do it, but the pots won't usually give you that kind of edge in lane. Later on they're cheap at any price.

[Eldariel]

Hmm... what is the general consensus on the use of the 4-minute potions? I know someone who starts Lux with a faerie charm (for philo) and blue (AP/CDR) pot, which leaves enough gold for a health potion to counter enemy pokes. I've tried it in bot games, and it seems to work decently well. I think it would be worth testing with other champions who build philo stone- grab mana regen and a stat booster to get you through to your first blue pill.

I'm also thinking about grabbing a red and/or green potion in midgame on my tanky DPS to help their damage output while building otherwise defensive items.

Elixir starts are generally not worth it nowadays; they lack staying power and you pretty much need to score a kill to make it worth it early on. However, later on carrying around a Fort Pot for surprise saves can be well worth it; just pop it in an engagement and enjoy your significant advantage.

You'll also want to carry whichever Elixirs are the most appropriate for what you're doing (most mages want blues, ranged AD wants green first unless being assassinated and building tankier, melee DPS generally wants red though most red-users do want green also, and vice versa).

Usually, after you finish your Core or whenever teamfights begin to happen, it's vastly advantageous to have your team potted. It's a cheap overall stat increase. Before Baron-fight, before forcing fight on a push or before fighting with Baron or such you practically always want to pot up if you only can afford it, even going so far as to skip your next item if Elixirs give you more short-term benefit. And generally, casters are more inclined to only Blue while most physical damage types want to double pot when truly potting up.

[Daverin]

Huh, I never thought about the pots before, not in any real sense. Which is odd, because I was actually just thinking of a way for melee and tanky dps to build so they have a superior early-mid, but will take longer to build for late game. Instead, I could just pull out a pot. Probably a lot cheaper.

The more you know.

[Eldariel]

Huh, I never thought about the pots before, not in any real sense. Which is odd, because I was actually just thinking of a way for melee and tanky dps to build so they have a superior early-mid, but will take longer to build for late game. Instead, I could just pull out a pot. Probably a lot cheaper.

The more you know.

In a game with Vayne, I frustrated enemy Malzahar to no end escaping Ignite+Malefic Visions with an Elixir of Fortitude. He was like "HOW AREN'T YOU DEAD!" and I was like "TROLLFACE.JPG!" Escaped two ganks too with two other Elixirs of Fort; 750gp easily worth not dying.

[Dogmantra]

I was like "TROLLFACE.JPG!"

You mean gluttonface.jpg?

Hold on, can you use non-QSS items when you're suppressed?

[Eldariel]

You mean gluttonface.jpg?

Hold on, can you use non-QSS items when you're suppressed?

Don't think so. Never had to try in that particular game, though. It was the post-Nether Grasp Visions+Ignite that was the danger.

[Daverin]

So, I never have really figured out how much hp regen contributes to how soaky you are. Since damage mitigation can actually be calculate in terms of effective hp, is there a similar formula for hp regen? I'm asking because I just was looking, and all of a sudden realized the potential synergy between Warmogs and FoN.

Also, as I mentioned earlier, I am curious: to what degree would it be helpful to rush cheaper items instead of the most expensive ones in hopes of starting out tougher? For example, I have been thinking of what it would be like having a Wriggles, a Wits End, an Aegis, and boots of your preference. Now, of course, Aegis is "supposed" to go with the support, but the more I think about it, the more I wonder how much you actually get from the aura and actual item combined (plus, it does double stack if you have the aura item too, doesn't it? Didn't we establish that in the last thread or two? Or am I making things up?) I recall actually getting something like this (might have missed Wits End), on Udyr, along with a Triforce. I was surprised at how nice all of his stats looked. Plus, having an aura, a magic damage boost, lifesteal, and a free ward every so often actually seems like some nice utility to go along with it.

Now here comes the part where someone comes along and tells me how this will never work... :smallsigh:

Also, on another note, when did I try to become so theorycrafty/inventive in League?

[toasty]

[QUOTE=Daverin;11588804]So, I never have really figured out how much hp regen contributes to how soaky you are. Since damage mitigation can actually be calculate in terms of effective hp, is there a similar formula for hp regen? I'm asking because I just was looking, and all of a sudden realized the potential synergy between Warmogs and FoN./QUOTE]

Figure out how much Hp regen per second you have, assume thats equal to HP. Basically.

Yeah, its not very efficient in a fight.

[FantomFang]

So, I never have really figured out how much hp regen contributes to how soaky you are. Since damage mitigation can actually be calculate in terms of effective hp, is there a similar formula for hp regen? I'm asking because I just was looking, and all of a sudden realized the potential synergy between Warmogs and FoN.

Also, as I mentioned earlier, I am curious: to what degree would it be helpful to rush cheaper items instead of the most expensive ones in hopes of starting out tougher? For example, I have been thinking of what it would be like having a Wriggles, a Wits End, an Aegis, and boots of your preference. Now, of course, Aegis is "supposed" to go with the support, but the more I think about it, the more I wonder how much you actually get from the aura and actual item combined (plus, it does double stack if you have the aura item too, doesn't it? Didn't we establish that in the last thread or two? Or am I making things up?) I recall actually getting something like this (might have missed Wits End), on Udyr, along with a Triforce. I was surprised at how nice all of his stats looked. Plus, having an aura, a magic damage boost, lifesteal, and a free ward every so often actually seems like some nice utility to go along with it.

Now here comes the part where someone comes along and tells me how this will never work... :smallsigh:

Also, on another note, when did I try to become so theorycrafty/inventive in League?

That actually sounds really good, and similar to what some people already do with Udyr. Udyr always appreciates extra attack speed, and Wit's End is great for that plus it's other effects. Triforce is good, but I would say not worth it on him - changing stances enough for the procs is difficult on his mana (I think) from what I know of him. Aegis would still be an excellent on item on him though, although you don't really need a 2nd one - only the aura component stacks, and only on the two carriers. Which only means an extra +8 dmg and like 10-15 Armor/MR (I forget the numbers) to two people beyond the normal effects.

Honestly, a built like the following sounds good to me:

Wriggle's
Merc Treads
Spirit Visage
Wit's End
+ Choice from there

It's basically how I build WW, and I think it would work very well here also (as long as Visage's healing bonus applies to turtle, and IIRC Udyr needs a small amount of CDR anyway to constantly stance switch to chase).

[Math_Mage]

So, I never have really figured out how much hp regen contributes to how soaky you are. Since damage mitigation can actually be calculate in terms of effective hp, is there a similar formula for hp regen? I'm asking because I just was looking, and all of a sudden realized the potential synergy between Warmogs and FoN.

Very hard to calculate, because who knows how much you'll be dealing with burst, and how much with DPS, and how much with pokes. Warmog's-FoN makes you basically impervious to pokes and soakier in drawn-out fights...but that's a lot of gold spent on pure tankery. These days I like to build as offensively as I can on my tanks--so Rylai's-RoA-SFC on Singed, for example, if I don't need BVeil/Randuins/FoN.


Also, as I mentioned earlier, I am curious: to what degree would it be helpful to rush cheaper items instead of the most expensive ones in hopes of starting out tougher? For example, I have been thinking of what it would be like having a Wriggles, a Wits End, an Aegis, and boots of your preference. Now, of course, Aegis is "supposed" to go with the support, but the more I think about it, the more I wonder how much you actually get from the aura and actual item combined (plus, it does double stack if you have the aura item too, doesn't it? Didn't we establish that in the last thread or two? Or am I making things up?) I recall actually getting something like this (might have missed Wits End), on Udyr, along with a Triforce. I was surprised at how nice all of his stats looked. Plus, having an aura, a magic damage boost, lifesteal, and a free ward every so often actually seems like some nice utility to go along with it.

Now here comes the part where someone comes along and tells me how this will never work... :smallsigh:

Not at all. I built Wriggle's-Visage-Wit's with some success on Udyr previously. Lots of tanky DPS champs want to quickly build up an array of stats rather than focusing a single stat; to do this, you either build cheap items, or different parts of bigger items, or TriForce.

[Mutant Bunny]

It seems to me that an elixir start might be particularly effective for the q-to-farm crowd: Nasus and Veigar come to mind. Is there anyone else who is dependent on a particular ability to farm, especially early on?

On the other side of the spectrum are support characters who aren't supposed to farm at all: would it be worthwhile for a Sona or Soraka to use this start? The AP and CDR boosts could be useful for babysitting the carry.

What about Akali? Using an elixir to trigger her passive could free up some of your runepage, though I'm not sure what she'd take instead of faerie charm...

[Daverin]

My big thing with including Aegis is because it is actually nice, cheap stats, and is one of the VERY few (in fact, I think technically only GA also applies) items that has both damage mitigation stats (in somes ways, I think that probably could be amended, but then I also think of how that could be troublesome as well.) Now, of course, having two Aegis may seem weird, but here is my reasoning. As said above, nice base stats, with a little bit to some of many things you need in one item, and fairly cheap. You also get the aura, which only adds more. It also benefits your allies. It also could alleviate the burden of that particular aura from the support, who can now look at more specialized ones. On the other hand, if the support still gets it, it actually does no harm for you to also have one. And it can have some conditional benefits. For one, you get the aura doublestacked, which is even more nice. Meanwhile, the aura now can be in two places at once, for whatever reasons this might be helpful. In addition, you now have the aura last that much longer in a fight, if certain kinds of focus order happen.

Mind you, my arguing Aegis only works on the premise already being set: a cheaper shot at combined stats that can be made quicker than some of the more popular cores, such as Trimog Atmas, which technically also provide some in areas that combo does not touch. For pure stats, you would want a Randuins/FH and a BV/FoN instead, and only need one aura. But there is actually no downside to using Aegis even if someone else has one, unless you want to count one of the auras not applying to everybody (which, to me, especially when compared with what having more than one does, is weak at best.) So, if my concept works, then Aegis as a part of it should work as well.

Also, thanks for reminding me of SV Math! As it happens, I can think of a couple of champs who this would naturally go with (Udyr, Warwick, Nocturne, Xin Zhao... it really is funny when you realize just how many junglers work because they have some form of self-healing...)

Also, Fantom, as far as Tri on Udyr goes, the proc is only one of the ingredients. He is one of the many tanky dps who can use just about every stat on it, and use it well. The proc is just icing on the cake.

[Eldariel]

I usually go Atmog's FoN on TANKY dps like Jarvan or Renek. It does indeed give you quite the sustainability especially combined with some lifesteal, and the enemy team is between the rock and the hard place in teamfights; if they focus you, your squishies will destroy them while they try to bring down the tank, while if they ignore you, you will destroy their DPS types without breaking a sweat, or at the very least force them out of the fight (outside perhaps Vayne and Corki; they can probably 1v1 you by those levels).

It's great for solo pushing too; you regenerate ridiculously fast and thus can easily trade harass and be back to full. Note that FoN is per second, not per 5 making the bonus regen extremely significant (it's easily ~50 HP5s). 50 HP per second can add up on a tanky DPS type.


It seems to me that an elixir start might be particularly effective for the q-to-farm crowd: Nasus and Veigar come to mind. Is there anyone else who is dependent on a particular ability to farm, especially early on?

You're delaying your Catalyst on Veigar; I'd loathe to do that. Before blue, he's more capped by mana than CD anyways. Nasus...ehh, over actually getting tanky? Rather not.


On the other side of the spectrum are support characters who aren't supposed to farm at all: would it be worthwhile for a Sona or Soraka to use this start? The AP and CDR boosts could be useful for babysitting the carry.

They want their gold/5 ASAP and given they get no farm, you really don't wanna pay 250 for nothing.


What about Akali? Using an elixir to trigger her passive could free up some of your runepage, though I'm not sure what she'd take instead of faerie charm...

Using runepage slots -> using in-game gold. There's a reason good Akalis don't use the Doran's Blade/Longsword-start.

[Daverin]

Also, a question on Warwick: Tankwick or Procwick?

Also, I think it is time I learn to really be a good jungler. I am interested in doing well with Warwick, Olaf, Nocturne, Udyr, Xin Zhao, Tryndamere, and Jarvan, all of whom are considered good junglers, at least in some aspect. My thing is, I obviously need to get better at ganking. What are some of the most important tips that one needs to know for being a good ganker?

[FantomFang]

Also, a question on Warwick: Tankwick or Procwick?

Also, I think it is time I learn to really be a good jungler. I am interested in doing well with Warwick, Olaf, Nocturne, Udyr, Xin Zhao, Tryndamere, and Jarvan, all of whom are considered good junglers, at least in some aspect. My thing is, I obviously need to get better at ganking. What are some of the most important tips that one needs to know for being a good ganker?

If laning, Tankwick definitely, although I end up getting procs from Wit's End in my tankwick build. If jungling, no idea lol.

[Daverin]

Well, Wits End is about as close to core as you get on WW, beside perhaps SV and Wriggles. :smalltongue:

[Science Officer]

So, I never have really figured out how much hp regen contributes to how soaky you are. Since damage mitigation can actually be calculate in terms of effective hp, is there a similar formula for hp regen? I'm asking because I just was looking, and all of a sudden realized the potential synergy between Warmogs and FoN.

I don't think regen really contributes to how much damage you can soak, rather it contributes to how often you can soak damage.

Alistar's heal (if you leave it at lvl 1) sort of works like this.


And I like tankwick. I really do. sad that they nerfed the heal on his q...

[potatocubed]

y u no Mumble, Potato?

Two reasons:

1. I don't like to talk.
B. I rage hard, and inarticulate howls of frustration rarely go over well in public communications.

[balistafreak]

Got Lee Sin today.

All I have to say is FFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUU-

QQ->EE->R->WW to initiate a teamfight is either the most crazy awesome thing to do ever, or it stops right around the second Q as you instantly die.

I'm still skeptical as to what kind of build I should be doing, though.

I'm jungling him, so Wriggle's Lantern is mandatory. I'm running into the middle of the enemy team at teams, so Mercury Treads are mandatory.

There's the "standard tanky dps" Triforce/Warmog's/Atma's combination, but while this covers a comprehensive amount of stats, it's stupidly expensive. I look at my "cheap and easy" Xin Zhao build, which goes Wit's End/Aegis of the Legion/Zeal-->Triforce, in comparison, and cry a bit to myself.

The reason I'm avoiding the latter build is because the guides I see advise staying away from attack speed, as you get "enough" through the passive Flurry anyways, and thus Wit's End is a "waste". And yet it's simply such an efficient item.

Maybe if I split up the Trimog Impaler build?

Wriggles, Treads, Wards mandatory. The other three slots will build all three other items simultaneously: start with Zeal for movespeed (it wins games), start with the Giant's Belt because sandbagging another component feels dumb, and grab the Chain Vest because you don't immediately need more critical damage.

Then you have buy all three items in huge expensive chunks. Ew. That doesn't sound fun at all. :smallannoyed:

[Dogmantra]

don't get a Triforce
or just get the Sheen first

[toasty]

Also, a question on Warwick: Tankwick or Procwick?

If you are jungling then tankwick. Get a Wriggles and a Spirit Visage.

If you are laning then get whatever feels best at the time. Wriggles counters hard push lanes, Wits End for more dps, Spirit Visage for tank, Sunfire for "sunfire is amazing" Madreds for "im pwning everyone". CDR boots for more q, Sorc for better Q, Merc for more MR.

You get the point. Builds are flexible. Especially on someone like Warwick.

[Eldariel]

If you are jungling then tankwick. Get a Wriggles and a Spirit Visage.

If you are laning then get whatever feels best at the time. Wriggles counters hard push lanes, Wits End for more dps, Spirit Visage for tank, Sunfire for "sunfire is amazing" Madreds for "im pwning everyone". CDR boots for more q, Sorc for better Q, Merc for more MR.

You get the point. Builds are flexible. Especially on someone like Warwick.

You generally combine them either way. You build tanky and then get late Bloodrazor for damage, or you build early damage and build tanky damage items into one or two actual tank-items late. All decent WWs are Tanky DPS, not pure tanks or pure DPS due to his design.

[toasty]

You generally combine them either way. You build tanky and then get late Bloodrazor for damage, or you build early damage and build tanky damage items into one or two actual tank-items late. All decent WWs are Tanky DPS, not pure tanks or pure DPS due to his design.

Oh of course you GENERALLY combine them. But I wouldn't ever say: "build spirit visage, last whisper, Sunfire/Bveil then madreds 100% of the time" Tank DPS heroes have some of the most flexible builds in the game, abuse that! Adapt your build. You're not ashe, you're not shoe-horned into rushing an Infinity Edge.

[Eldariel]

Oh of course you GENERALLY combine them. But I wouldn't ever say: "build spirit visage, last whisper, Sunfire/Bveil then madreds 100% of the time" Tank DPS heroes have some of the most flexible builds in the game, abuse that! Adapt your build. You're not ashe, you're not shoe-horned into rushing an Infinity Edge.

Yeah, hence the "eventually". Sometimes the game calls for early tanky. Sometimes you need early dps. Sometimes you're jungling. Sometimes you're laning. Build accordingly.

[Daverin]

Wow! Saw the patch preview, and they say they are going to try to make Garen have more utility. Not only is everyone's favorite Demacian ham able to hurt, but he may now be more useful/surviving beyond early? I could almost see this actually pushing it.

Also, lowering Leona's CD and mana costs. Could prove helpful, and probably a much better idea that touching her AP, if she needs anything.

[toasty]

Also, lowering Leona's CD and mana costs. Could prove helpful, and probably a much better idea that touching her AP, if she needs anything.

In my limited experience Leona is already viable as a Bottom Duo Tank-Support, so I'm happy with buffs. :smallbiggrin:

[Necroticplague]

Kog'maw can't avoid getting kited with Move Quick and shrooms. Caitlyn has her net.

Cailyns net's slow isn't as strong as Void Ooze, and Void Ooze isn't a skill shot. Kog'maw can attack Teemo from farther away than Caitlyn can. Kog'maw can avoid being kited by being able to attack Teemo before Teemo can attack Kog'maw, and mushrooms aren't horribly relevant when you don't have to move to attack.

[Baxter190]

I've been trying to learn to jungle with Amumu. Any advice you guys can give me?

[Mutant Bunny]

You're delaying your Catalyst on Veigar; I'd loathe to do that. Before blue, he's more capped by mana than CD anyways. Nasus...ehh, over actually getting tanky? Rather not.

Tested it on Veigar; yeah, he needs mana early on and catalyst ASAP, but a blue elixir could be a cheap, effective boost toward the end of the laning phase.

As for Nasus, having a bit more overall health and AD doesn't hurt his ability to absorb harass and farm Q (unless he's up against a Mundo or other %-based damage), but I've been thinking in particular about Jarvan's Q: its low initial mana cost and the fact that it scales on bonus AD makes an early elixir of fortitude potentially very effective at guaranteeing last hits. Maybe it's just because I'm really bad as Jarvan, but I tend to leave minions with a very small sliver of health annoyingly often.


They want their gold/5 ASAP and given they get no farm, you really don't wanna pay 250 for nothing.

Which is why you probably don't want to use the elixir right away: save it for when you're ready to help give your carry first blood. It's an idea, anyway.

If the alternative is a meki pendent into tear, then faerie charm actually puts you a bit closer to that gold/5. If you're rushing philo stone, faerie charm actually isn't a terrible choice. That said, regrowth pendent +pot is probably the better choice on most.


Using runepage slots -> using in-game gold. There's a reason good Akalis don't use the Doran's Blade/Longsword-start.

Fair point, and one of the reasons I'm VERY tempted to spend money on the rune page bundle. Two pages isn't enough, and 6300 IP is way too much for just one more page :smallyuk:

[balistafreak]

don't get a Triforce
or just get the Sheen first

So... what items would you suggest on him, then?

I just tried "secret tech" of Gunblade on him. Ewwwww. A horrifically expensive item for what it did for Lee Sin - the problem is not sustain, but surviving initial burst. I can walk into the jungle and heal up just fine, the Gunblade is a lot of wasted money on AP during a teamfight.


Cailyns net's slow isn't as strong as Void Ooze, and Void Ooze isn't a skill shot. Kog'maw can attack Teemo from farther away than Caitlyn can. Kog'maw can avoid being kited by being able to attack Teemo before Teemo can attack Kog'maw, and mushrooms aren't horribly relevant when you don't have to move to attack.

Caitlyn's net is strong not because it's a slow - that's an added bonus if the enemy happens to be in the way, but it's not the main thing. The net is there because it's a mini-flash. THAT makes it strong. It quickly sends you a short distance in another direction, and lets you hop walls.

[FantomFang]

I've been trying to learn to jungle with Amumu. Any advice you guys can give me?

Learn to deal with counter-jungling. Amumu is one of the more blue-reliant junglers despite his prowess, and he's also one of the weaker junglers right at the start, so teams will often try to steal your blue if they can. This is less of an issue at low-levels though.

Try to familiarize yourself with two starts to deal with this at the least - the most common start is cloth + 5, blue - wolves - wraiths - red/golems. You should learn a start that doesn't need an immediate blue though - thats something I need to work on myself, tbh.

Masteries depend on you, but you're going to want some mix of defense and utility. I personally run 1/14/15, getting the flash and smite masteries and some speed/mana regen in utility to make up for the mana hunger that amumu has. Runes can vary - you pretty much need armor seals, but the rest depend on what you want - more armor/mpen for marks works well, mr/lvl or mp5/lvl for blues, hp/ms/mpen or w/e for quints, up to you.

I'm a fan of starting WEEQ, with skill priority being R-E-W-Q. Leveling E first gives very nice scaling damage reduction and stronger ganks, but leveling W first clears the jungle faster, although with less health retention. It's mainly whatever works best for you.

If you can, initiate ganks with something other than your Q. If you can manage to get behind someone before using your stun, you can often save it for the inevitable flash when they try to escape. Also, don't be afraid to execute a quick gank even if you know you can't secure a kill. If you can burn an opponent's flash, that's a big help to the laner, and allows them to play much more aggressive.

In general, build your starting cloth armor into an aegis. My starting build on amumu is very simple - merc treads and aegis. From there, it depends on the game, but a common next item is sunfire for when you are doing well. It's really up to you. Sneaking a Heart of Gold in there somewhere is good as well, as amumu can always use the health and Randuin's is great for him lategame.

[Dogmantra]

So... what items would you suggest on him, then?

I just tried "secret tech" of Gunblade on him. Ewwwww. A horrifically expensive item for what it did for Lee Sin - the problem is not sustain, but surviving initial burst. I can walk into the jungle and heal up just fine, the Gunblade is a lot of wasted money on AP during a teamfight.


Mallet or Warmog's into Atma's normally. Sometimes get a BF Sword or a Ghostblade before the Warmog's, maaaaybe get a Phage or Sheen before the Warmog's. Basically, you have high enough base damage on your abilities that until people start getting armour you are actually fine.

[Silverraptor]

Also, lowering Leona's CD and mana costs. Could prove helpful, and probably a much better idea that touching her AP, if she needs anything.


In my limited experience Leona is already viable as a Bottom Duo Tank-Support, so I'm happy with buffs. :smallbiggrin:

I would like it if She did slightly more damage, but she's pretty good where she is.

[AtwasAwamps]

I want to see more rap battles. Blitzcrank, Taric, Mundo, Miss Fortune, Nasus, there's so many candidates! :smallamused:

I've been debating putting together one for Master Yi vs. Wukong. I need a beat.

[Mtg_player_zach]

Also, a question on Warwick: Tankwick or Procwick?

Also, I think it is time I learn to really be a good jungler. I am interested in doing well with Warwick, Olaf, Nocturne, Udyr, Xin Zhao, Tryndamere, and Jarvan, all of whom are considered good junglers, at least in some aspect. My thing is, I obviously need to get better at ganking. What are some of the most important tips that one needs to know for being a good ganker?

I have a brief guide about jungling in the first post. If you want some more tips PM me tomorrow I guess (going to bed shortly).



I've been trying to learn to jungle with Amumu. Any advice you guys can give me?


Um, runes, you have a few choices, up to you. I'll tell you what I run and why though.

Armor Marks
Dodge Seals
Scaling MR Glyphs
1 Health Quint
2 Movespeed quints

You could use ARpen marks to speed it up if you wanted, but it won't be that significant, and MPen marks does nothing for your jungle either and is only 8.5 anyway. Armor marks are in my opinion the best marks for amumu, it greatly helps your health throughout the jungle and will allow you enough health to gank at 4 without backing with double buff.
Seals should be dodge or armor, nothing else. Armor is quicker for your jungle clear time, dodge is more end game with better effective health, both are valid. I run dodge with the defense spec.
Glyphs you can do whatever you want.
Quints you can do whatever you want, though I really like movespeed quints to stick to people when I'm ganking.

My runes (with a pull) will allow you to go through a full clear and end with full health and double buff ready for an early gank. (Most junglers have to back before ganking). It's pretty strong.
Skill order for a blue start is Despair- Tantrum- Tantrum- Bandage Toss, with a following skill order of Ult-Tantrum-Despair- Bandage Toss. Cloth 5 Start.
Skill order for a Wraith Start is Tantrum- Despair- Tantrum- Bandage Toss, with a following skill order of Ult- Tantrum- Despair- Bandage Toss. Mana Crystal 2 Start.

I run 0/21/9.

[SidCoolios]

Got Lee Sin today.



What I do (which is a slight variation on dog's build) is this:

1: start cloth +5 pots because you are obviously jungling

2: from there you get a wriggles and boots of swiftness for that delicious move speed you love so much

3: Then I buy a bf sword so I can do real damage

4: from there I get an Atmogs

5: Buy a bloodthirster from the bf sword you got earlier (if you are doing well you can do this before step Atmogs)

6: ...buy another bloodthirster

win game if you can actually finish this build

(the second bloodthirster can be replaced with any other damage item really)

[Math_Mage]

Cailyns net's slow isn't as strong as Void Ooze, and Void Ooze isn't a skill shot. Kog'maw can attack Teemo from farther away than Caitlyn can. Kog'maw can avoid being kited by being able to attack Teemo before Teemo can attack Kog'maw, and mushrooms aren't horribly relevant when you don't have to move to attack.

Void Ooze doesn't work as a blink, and can be dodged. Kog is welcome to waste his time with W--Teemo decides when they trade harass because he has Move Quick and (later) intelligently placed shrooms that will either zone or lead to favorable trades.

Of course, Teemo isn't likely to end up laning against Kog--he'll go abuse your tanky DPS in top lane, more likely.

[Darth Mario]

For anyone who wants to get the jump on the enemy at dragon but has trouble counting four buffs and two bosses in their head, this app may be useful: http://creeptimer.appspot.com/

[ex cathedra]

What I do (which is a slight variation on dog's build) is this:

1: start cloth +5 pots because you are obviously jungling

2: from there you get a wriggles and boots of swiftness for that delicious move speed you love so much

This seems suboptimal. Cloth+5 pots is a bad start, especially on junglers like Lee Sin who can practically start with anything. I've heard that Doran's Blade starts are fairly popular.

Also, Boots of Swiftness seem worse than Merc Treads, etc.

[toasty]

GG Phreak goes Jungle+Trifroce on new Champion. :smallsigh:

In other news: Morde Es #1.

[Mutant Bunny]

So, I did it. I splurged on the rune page bundle. Do y'all know what that means? That's right... JUNGLE JAX! I can finally build a rune page for him without throwing off my ability to, you know, play someone other than Jax! :smallbiggrin: (yeah, I was one of THOSE early on: Jax was free my first week of play, and I got used to playing the uber-carry. When the week was up, my friend suggested I try Tryndamere. I was also one of THOSE. :smallbiggrin: Now that I actually understand the game, maybe I can play Jax without succumbing to Yi syndrome... maybe. :smallwink: )

As for the elixir debate, I think I'm ready to cede that a regrowth pendent+pot is a better start on the philo stone people I was most seriously considering for it. You grab elixirs as often as you have extra gold mid-game. Your core build is too important to put yourself back 250 for a small advantage in the first 5 minutes of the game.


This seems suboptimal. Cloth+5 pots is a bad start, especially on junglers like Lee Sin who can practically start with anything. I've heard that Doran's Blade starts are fairly popular.

For Lee Sin and pretty much every jungler, you want Wriggle's Lantern as soon as possible, but if you can get Madred's Razor, you're almost as well-off, especially if you have other forms of sustain. Ward jumping (something both Lee Sin and Jax can and should do) is just too useful a mechanic to ignore. Grabbing cloth armor and pots puts you at 700 from having Madred's Razor (not hard to manage by your first blue pill) and is more likely to leave you with enough HP at the end of your route to gank. It may be possible to start with any item and clear the jungle, but cloth+pots puts most junglers closest to where they want to be, build-wise, and gives them a chance to squeeze a gank in before their first blue pill.

Other Lee Sin stuff:
The scariest (or most annoying, at least) LS I've ever seen had mastered the art of tower-diving. He'd Q->Q, then safeguard out onto a minion before the turret even fired a shot at him. It was really annoying and tough to counter, but I'm pretty sure we won the match anyway :smallcool:

[toasty]

For Lee Sin and pretty much every jungler, you want Wriggle's Lantern as soon as possible, but if you can get Madred's Razor, you're almost as well-off, especially if you have other forms of sustain. Ward jumping (something both Lee Sin and Jax can and should do) is just too useful a mechanic to ignore. Grabbing cloth armor and pots puts you at 700 from having Madred's Razor (not hard to manage by your first blue pill) and is more likely to leave you with enough HP at the end of your route to gank. It may be possible to start with any item and clear the jungle, but cloth+pots puts most junglers closest to where they want to be, build-wise, and gives them a chance to squeeze a gank in before their first blue pill.


If you want Razors so fast then just start Long Sword?

[balistafreak]

If you want Razors so fast then just start Long Sword?

Starting Longsword only gives you 1 potion for sustain, unlike the power of a whole 12% Vampiric scepter.

[Adumbration]

You know, some weeks ago I saw an interesting build on Ryze. It was pretty much the standard mana/tanky build as usual - Catalyst, Tear, Glacial shroud - but after finishing the core of Banshee's and Frozen Heart, he built Manamune. If I recall correctly, that alone gave him damage far in excess of 200 just in autoattacks. Considering his poor AP ratios and great scaling in mana, might this be more optimal than building Archangel's? Maybe finish off with Hextech Gunblade to make him the ultimate ranged tanky sustain DPS?

[Daverin]

I'm almost positive that anyone who firsts hears about it immediately realizes it ultimately "does more" than AA's AP does, giving Ryze tower pushing power that he otherwise lacks. I mean, sure, you get some AP out of AA, because, you know, his AP ratios are so good. I figure I would get manamune on Ryze if ever I played him.

Mind you, this probably should only be done for the aa on towers. From the couple of times I've played Ryze, and seeing others playing him, getting gunblade would be somewhat "meh" because he just really has little to no need for attacks during his combo, since you very likely will have something up at any given moment. Still, Ryze has little use for AP, and pushing towers, and then the nexus, is what actually fulfills the victory objectives, so adding one more dash of damage for it is quite useful.

[toasty]

Starting Longsword only gives you 1 potion for sustain, unlike the power of a whole 12% Vampiric scepter.

Obviously. But the guy above me said he buys cloth armor for rushing Madreds Razor. Longsword is the most cost efficient way to rush a Madreds Razor.

[balistafreak]

Obviously. But the guy above me said he buys cloth armor for rushing Madreds Razor. Longsword is the most cost efficient way to rush a Madreds Razor.

So it seems on paper, until you realize that without a method of health retention - either Cloth Armor and lots of potions, or just a Vampiric Scepter - you're not going to last very long in the jungle. Even a Doran's Blade has some lifesteal attached to it.

I'm not sure if even Lee Sin can get away with just a Longsword and a potion. At the very least, he'd be forced to back after completing one circuit of camps, unable to make positive "health income" against the small camps to ensure that he has sufficient health to make a successful gank.

Sure, you "waste" less money, but then you gimp your income in the jungle since you'll have to go back earlier, just to heal.

[Eldariel]

I've been trying to learn to jungle with Amumu. Any advice you guys can give me?

WEEQ, or take Q when going to gank.

1/16/13 or 0/21/9

Cloth + 5 or Regrowth Pendant + 1

Full clear is decent, can gank from level 2 as necessary. I like Wolves -> Blue -> Enemy Wraiths -> Gank Mid with help from some champ to do Wolves and Blue in time and in decent HP.

[efdf]

Just did a longsword start with Lee Sin, wolves > wraiths > minis
Ended at 2:40 with 350 health

Vampiric Scepter:
Ended at 2:45 with 390 health


For both, it is actually possible to take both red and blue without backing as long as you wait for your smite cooldown.

[term1nally s1ck]

Now try minis, wraiths, wolves, so you're not having to walk forever to get there.

You need the vamp sceptre to do that.

[efdf]

Walk forever to get where? Red is right next to minis.

edit: Just did minis > wraiths > wolves > blue with longsword + pot
ended at 3:10 with 200 HP

So no, you don't need a scepter.

with vamp scepter minis > wraiths > wolves > blue
ended at 3:20 with 200 HP

In fact, scepter is completely inferior.

[Nargan]

Walk forever to get where? Red is right next to minis.

edit: Just did minis > wraiths > wolves > blue with longsword + pot
ended at 3:10 with 200 HP

So no, you don't need a scepter.

with vamp scepter minis > wraiths > wolves > blue
ended at 3:20 with 200 HP

In fact, scepter is completely inferior.

Not completely- If you feel like minor counter jungling (wraiths, 1 golem) you can do those 2, plus your wolves>wraths> mini's with scepter, but not with 1 longsword and pot. You can then go back, get longsword and pot as well as scepter, and do a full clear. Works for me anyway.

Now do a singed jungle without retarded runes :p

[efdf]

Singed jungle is really easy actually; blue > wolves > wraiths > golems in 3:30 cloth + 5 ending with 300 HP with magic pen reds hp quints dodge yellow mr blues and pretty much requires no micro other than toggling your poison to only activate when it wears off, still have pots remaining and never need to wait around for HP

keep in mind I'm doing all these clears without a leash or armor yellows so it could easily be improved in health retention

and you're wrong about longsword being unable to do enemy wraiths > 1 enemy mini > wolves > wraiths > minis

just did it in 3:45 200 HP left

[Arbitrarity]

That is a LOT of flat AD. Efdf's Lee Sin jungle times suddenly make more sense.

[Winthur]

This seems suboptimal. Cloth+5 pots is a bad start, especially on junglers like Lee Sin who can practically start with anything. I've heard that Doran's Blade starts are fairly popular.


Cloth + 5 pots is a bad start only on those sustainable junglers like Warwick (who prefers Long Sword + 1 pot pretty much always to make up for his lousy speed) Nunu (boots, but even he can go Cloth, potion or two, and a ward in some specific cases) and Fiddlesticks (duh).

Any other jungler who has alternatives, like Udyr, Amumu, Jarvan or anyone else has to give up something when he doesn't go for the Cloth Armor + 5 pots start. But most of the time, Cloth Armor start gives you the most available sustain, helps a lot when counterjungling and helps fight aggressive counterjunglers. An Amumu or Rammus going Cloth + 5 pot can gank immediately after finishing their route with no problems. The same junglers can also go for the Regrowth Pendant start, but this usually means someone has to leash their blue (if they start there) and they're just not as safe overall. It does probably give more reward for some additional risk, though.

But you can be a baller like SK Wetdream and run one of his patented "all Armor runes" (really!) pages, which give you +40 armor at the start. :smalleek:

Also, gotta love the fact that efdf is a 1900+ ELO player who only has three runepages and all of them are labeled Lee Sin LEE SIN. :smallbiggrin:

[Arbitrarity]

Yeah, I can do the counterjungling longsword Lee Sin route with AD reds and arpen quints, armor yellows. Testing for straight arpen now. It'll definitely be slower, not sure if it's a fatal difference.

Actually... I ended up with 300 health.

Trick: Activating Safeguard a second before hitting the camp means you get enough extra time that you can use it twice on some camps, saving ~60 health on early wraiths and minis.

The real reason Longsword clear works so well is because of Wraiths. 100%. With a longsword, they take 3 hits to clear, whereas with vamp scepter, they take 4. This is a HUGE difference in health retention, considering they do like 20 damage a hit each. You save ~120 health the first wraith camp you clear, same with the second one.

[Volatar]

For anyone who wants to get the jump on the enemy at dragon but has trouble counting four buffs and two bosses in their head, this app may be useful: http://creeptimer.appspot.com/

Darnit Mario. I was going to keep that for myself and try to seem like a psychic :smalltongue:

[Necroticplague]

Does anyone know when dominion is coming out? It looks like a fun idea, but I just want to know if this is "soon", or if its like the other WIP map which is coming out when the Abyss freezes over.

[toasty]

Also, gotta love the fact that efdf is a 1900+ ELO player who only has three runepages and all of them are labeled Lee Sin LEE SIN. :smallbiggrin:

They used to all be called JAX.


Does anyone know when dominion is coming out? It looks like a fun idea, but I just want to know if this is "soon", or if its like the other WIP map which is coming out when the Abyss freezes over.

After PAX Prime in Seattle where they are demoing it.

[Volatar]

Does anyone know when dominion is coming out? It looks like a fun idea, but I just want to know if this is "soon", or if its like the other WIP map which is coming out when the Abyss freezes over.

From what they are said, expect it in the next patch right after PAX, unless PAX reveals some serious flaws or bugs that they don't have time to fix before that patch.

[balistafreak]

Walk forever to get where? Red is right next to minis.

edit: Just did minis > wraiths > wolves > blue with longsword + pot
ended at 3:10 with 200 HP

So no, you don't need a scepter.

with vamp scepter minis > wraiths > wolves > blue
ended at 3:20 with 200 HP

In fact, scepter is completely inferior.

Scepter gives you options, though. I'm not sure if Lee Sin's Iron Will gives him quite enough sustain to return to the jungle without recalling. If I gank or duck into a lane to cover it (aka leech experience to let it not go to waste if the laner has to recall/buy), the camps will respawn. If I have a Longsword, if I took any damage in the lane, I'll probably have to recall instead of returning straight to the jungle. But if I have a Vampiric Scepter, I should be able to get positive health income guaranteed.

I haven't played enough Lee Sin to have tried this for real, though, so don't quote me.

EDIT: Just did some experiments... and either my Lee Sin micro is bad, or there are some key differences in our setup besides items.

Going 21/0/9 masteries, eschewing critical strike damage for bonus damage to minions, I take flat AD reds, flat armor yellows, scaling MR blues, and ArPen quints. This starts me with 16 ArPen with masteries, enough to deal true damage to the jungle.

I did three trials of each setup. Skill order was WEW, going golems to golem. To approach every camp, I went WWEE, using two Flurried hits in between every skill. I made sure to preload W a second or two in advance while walking towards the camp.

Taking a Longsword and a Health Potion to go golems to blue golem ended me with about 75-150 health in about 3:10-3:20. I would definitely have to recall afterwards.

Taking a Vampiric Scepter ended me without about 250-350 health in about 3:20-3:30. If a lane was extremely low/I'm feeling ballsy, I could gank, or take over a lane, or counterjungle for positive health income.

So it comes down to, do I want to shave 10 seconds of the camps at the cost of 35 gold (health potion) and some options?

In my opinion, 10 seconds doesn't mean all that much if you're focus farming the jungle. I'd rather the options, but that's just be.

The added damage against the wraiths was extremely noticeable, like you said. However, the lower health total I had throughout the route was even more noticeable to me.

[Nargan]

Scepter gives you options, though. I'm not sure if Lee Sin's Iron Will gives him quite enough sustain to return to the jungle without recalling. If I gank or duck into a lane to cover it (aka leech experience to let it not go to waste if the laner has to recall/buy), the camps will respawn. If I have a Longsword, if I took any damage in the lane, I'll probably have to recall instead of returning straight to the jungle. But if I have a Vampiric Scepter, I should be able to get positive health income guaranteed.

I haven't played enough Lee Sin to have tried this for real, though, so don't quote me.

He has lifesteal and armor on his W, so you get health regen in lane anyway.

[Volatar]

For anyone who wants to get the jump on the enemy at dragon but has trouble counting four buffs and two bosses in their head, this app may be useful: http://creeptimer.appspot.com/

You may notice that link regularly 503ing (bandwidth quota exceeded). He has made the project open source here: http://code.google.com/p/creeptimer/

Anyone got some webhosting space to spare?

[Nargan]

Sry double post, bad internet due to storm nearby.

[balistafreak]

He has lifesteal and armor on his W, so you get health regen in lane anyway.

This is true.

The bigger problem is the slightly lower health total. If you're too low, you can't meaningfully lane if the enemy laner will be running straight at you, zoning you out.

As an aside, I need to try the Doran's Blade start. As much as I like rushing Wriggle's Lantern for the ballsy level 6 dragon, apparently Doran's Blade stack (two or three) in the early game is apparently ridiculously effective.

[Math_Mage]

Does anyone know when dominion is coming out? It looks like a fun idea, but I just want to know if this is "soon", or if its like the other WIP map which is coming out when the Abyss freezes over.

Magma Chamber is unofficially dead, btw ('unofficially' in that all I ever get for evidence is "so I hear some reds confirmed it on this third-party website").

[Rhydeble]

Is it me or is picking Taric an instant +20 IQ global aura when playing solo-queue? I've won six games in a row with him, and every single ally was atleast semi-competent, I might actually make it out of the ELO-hell.

[Rhydeble]

Is it me or is picking Taric an instant +20 IQ global aura when playing solo-queue? I've won six games in a row with him, and every single ally was atleast semi-competent, I might actually make it out of the ELO-hell.

[Dragero]

I've decided to get back into LoL after a short TF2 addiction. I haven't played since Yorik was released, can somebody give me a quick recap of the new champs, and major buffs/nerfs/reworks that have taken place over the last few months?

[efdf]

My runes are flat AD reds and quints, mix of dodge/armor/hp yellows and mr blues. I go 21/0/9

You can actually get a longsword start down to 3:00 (minis wraiths wolves blue) with a QEW skill order but you end up with about 50 HP

and after trying WEW longsword blue more I'd definitely agree that vamp scepter's health retention is better than the speed; ending up with 200 HP on a longsword start is very tricky and requires a critical strike and counting strikes on each monster so that you don't waste any flurry strikes (meaning you have the secondary effects of tempest and safeguard up as much as possible) and it's extremely likely that you'll misjudge; in more general cases it's more likely that you'll have ~100 HP

however, the HP at wolves for longsword compared to vamp is pretty much the same, and the speed is so good that I'd most likely do a longsword if I went QEW and ganked immediately after wolves.


Yeah, QEW longsword finishes wolves, getting level 3 with 300 HP at 2:40; this is about 20 seconds before the second wave of minions reach middle lane, meaning everyone but you is level one and everyone is pretty much at the river, meaning gankable.

[Math_Mage]

Yeah, QEW longsword finishes wolves, getting level 3 with 300 HP at 2:40; this is about 10 seconds after minions reach middle lane, meaning everyone but you is level one and everyone is pretty much at the river, meaning gankable.

Minions hit mid at 1:50, no? But in essence you're right.

[tribble]

Is it me or is picking Taric an instant +20 IQ global aura when playing solo-queue? I've won six games in a row with him, and every single ally was atleast semi-competent, I might actually make it out of the ELO-hell.

obviously it doesn't apply to the provider of the aura, since you double posted.:smalltongue:

But in seriousness, It's probably just you. That, and a bonus 30 armor for the entire team (and a free chain shirt and more for you) goes some way towards making fights more forgiving.

[balistafreak]

But in seriousness, It's probably just you. That, and a bonus 30 armor for the entire team (and a free chain shirt and more for you) goes some way towards making fights more forgiving.

It's probably just you. I play Taric, top and mid lanes collapse completely and our jungler gets executed twice. :smallannoyed:

[Eldariel]

I've decided to get back into LoL after a short TF2 addiction. I haven't played since Yorik was released, can somebody give me a quick recap of the new champs, and major buffs/nerfs/reworks that have taken place over the last few months?

1.0.0.121 (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=935156) and 1.0.0.122 (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=1016900) patches.

Basically:
- AP Alistar was heavily nerfed
- Ashe arrow slightly nerfed (still superb)
- Corki lost some numbers across the board
- GP and Annie slightly nerfed (still insane)
- Jarvan slightly nerfed (still good)
- Janna got new model (YAY!)
- Jax got his Leap ratio back (he's fine now)
- Kog'Maw significantly buffed (he's real good right now)
- Kayle rework; she's...eh, she's alright. Not terrible, could be better
- Orianna nerfed (still nuts)
- Rumble nerfed slightly (still nuts)
- Swain healing from minions nerfed to ground, still heals well off champions (he's kinda ehhh now)
- Tryndamere reworked to be less all-or-nothing (he's alright, though has the same problem as always)
- Udyr small nerf on Tiger ratio (whatevs)
- Yorick got a massive buff and a subsequent massive nerf

- Global rework published; TF and Pant pretty nerfed right now, they buffing Pants next patch tho.
- Derpcap slightly lower base AP (nothing changed)
- Zhonya's Hourglass slightly cheaper (nothing major)

[efdf]

Minions hit mid at 1:50, no? But in essence you're right.

yeah, my mistake. it's about 20 seconds before the second wave of minions

[Temotei]

I've decided to get back into LoL after a short TF2 addiction. I haven't played since Yorik was released, can somebody give me a quick recap of the new champs, and major buffs/nerfs/reworks that have taken place over the last few months?

Let's see...Yorick was reworked hugely, making him somewhat overpowered for a little bit before being nerfed into his current state, which is better than how he started, but I have little experience with him beyond that (I own him, so I'll take him for a spin and tell you how he feels now.). His abilities are mostly the same, but with a lot of number changes and an AP ratio on W now instead of AD (still deals physical damage). Oh, and his ghosts don't lose health automatically.

Leona is a tank who's pretty decent, but lacks sufficient damage to be an attractive target after she uses all of her abilities. They're making her cooldowns shorter and her mana costs less this patch, so we'll see where that puts her. It should help, since CDR + tanky is the way to go with her right now. Also, sunfire cape is practically mandatory to make up for the lack of damage. Q is a stun on her next autoattack, W grants armor and MR to Leona and explodes in a circular radius around her to deal damage and renew the duration of the buff if it hits an enemy. E is a skill shot that hits for damage against every enemy it passes through and pulls Leona to the last enemy champion it hits. Minions take damage, but don't provoke a pull. Her ult is a big burst of sunlight that stuns enemies in the center and slows enemies in the radius outside of the center by some crazy amount. I think it's 80%.

Wukong is like Jarvan, but worse, in my opinion. Still, he seems to be okay. Q is an armor reduction on his next autoattack. W creates a decoy of himself that just sits there while he becomes stealthed. There's no animation (but mana does decrease on the decoy, so if enemies are paying attention, they can tell you used it). E is a targeting ability that brings Wukong to the target, dealing damage to up to three enemies around his new location. His ult makes him spin around and knock up any enemies that are hit (maximum of one knockup per enemy).