Help with a rogue

[Adindra]

Hello, i created a kobold dragonwrought rogue (no aging my dm didnt allow it but i wanted it for the tail attack) and i was going the natural attacks sneak attack route and i was wondering if there was anyway i can actually deal decent damage against oozes and things that cannot be flanked. My poor little kobold just seems useless against them and my dm likes making us all fight things we cant really deal with. Any ideas would be an amazing help!

[Tvtyrant]

Go into strength instead of dex and PA? There is a feat that lets you SA golems but it doesn't do a lot of damage.

[Greenish]

Go into strength instead of dex and PA?On natural-weapons focused kobold?

There are spells that can allow sneak attacking certain types of enemies. Wands of those and UMD may help. Wands of some other useful spells and UMD can also help.

[Adindra]

Thanks that was actually alot faster of a response than i expected ^.^ im gonna take a look around to try and find the spell you mentioned

[Tvtyrant]

On natural-weapons focused kobold?

There are spells that can allow sneak attacking certain types of enemies. Wands of those and UMD may help. Wands of some other useful spells and UMD can also help.

Sure, he has what, 4 attacks? It wouldn't be that bad, and with oozes you can PA down to nothing and still hit.

[Greenish]

Sure, he has what, 4 attacks?Well, even qualifying for PA is a bit wasteful, pb-wise, with that -4 str.

5 attacks with IUS and BAB below 6.

[Tvtyrant]

Well, even qualifying for PA is a bit wasteful, pb-wise, with that -4 str.

5 attacks with IUS and BAB below 6.

I grant you its not optimal, but honestly there isn't much a Rogue can do against SA immunes.

[Greenish]

I grant you its not optimal, but honestly there isn't much a Rogue can do against SA immunes.You could cry and look miserable and cast accusing gazes at your DM.

[Adindra]

You could cry and look miserable and cast accusing gazes at your DM.

lol my dm would laugh at my miserable tears

[Tvtyrant]

You could cry and look miserable and cast accusing gazes at your DM.

Or have a ton of tree tokens and throw them at things to do fall damage. They would be improvised, but they certainly pack a wallop.

[Thespianus]

Actually, I don't think oozes can ever be sneak attacked ("Challenge accepted", anyone? ;).

While there's a Rogue ACF that allows you to do half sneak attack damage to creatures that are immune to sneak attacks, it only applies when you're flanking the target, and you can't flank an Ooze ( at least not without polymorphing it into something that can be flanked. ;) )

There might be options that I don't know about, but Oozes and Swarms are really nasty lcreateures when you're playing a Rogue.

[Xtomjames]

Sneak Attacking an ooze is actually quite easy, though not with natural weapons. To sneak attack an ooze you have to be able to sneak attack a creature with blindsight. Funny thing about blindsight is that it's limited to 60 feet and relies on the extra sensory perception (non-sight perception) to detect creatures. Sound, smell, vibrations in the air. There are ways around this. A silence spell stops all sound (and thus all air vibrations) from emanating from the rogue. A spell that creates an overwhelming smell prevents the ooze from smelling a creature from coming. Once you distort the blindsight, the ooze (or any creature with blindsight) is no longer immune to flanking or being caught flat footed.

Oozes also are usually immune to sneak attack because they're immune to critical hits. But a bane weapon removes that immunity. Other things that the ooze is vulnerable to will remove that immunity as well, like a cold burst weapon or freezing attacks that actually freeze the ooze into a solid block.

[Zaq]

Sneak Attacking an ooze is actually quite easy, though not with natural weapons. To sneak attack an ooze you have to be able to sneak attack a creature with blindsight. Funny thing about blindsight is that it's limited to 60 feet and relies on the extra sensory perception (non-sight perception) to detect creatures. Sound, smell, vibrations in the air. There are ways around this. A silence spell stops all sound (and thus all air vibrations) from emanating from the rogue. A spell that creates an overwhelming smell prevents the ooze from smelling a creature from coming. Once you distort the blindsight, the ooze (or any creature with blindsight) is no longer immune to flanking or being caught flat footed.

Oozes also are usually immune to sneak attack because they're immune to critical hits. But a bane weapon removes that immunity. Other things that the ooze is vulnerable to will remove that immunity as well, like a cold burst weapon or freezing attacks that actually freeze the ooze into a solid block.

I'm pretty sure that none of this is true. At all.

[mootoall]

If you want an *actual* away around Blindsense, etc., take the Darkstalker feat. Edit: Oh, and also, if you just want bonus damage vs. Precision immune opponents, go the Ranger/Scout Swift Hunter build.

[Boci]

I'm pretty sure that none of this is true. At all.

Let's check:

Oozes are immune to SA because they have blind sight: Nope, blindsight creatures can still be flanked, and caught flatfooted by an attack outside their range.

Blindsight relies on extra sensory perception: Not always, varies from creature to creature.

Silence stops vibrations: No it doesn't. Presumable it stops creatures from translating these vibrations into sound.

Bane weapon does not remove an oozes immunity to ciritical hits.

Yep, as a far as I can see, everything is wrong.

[Amnestic]

Let's check:

Oozes are immune to SA because they have blind sight: Nope, blindsight creatures can still be flanked, and caught flatfooted by an attack outside their range.

Also, (SRD):
A rogue can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomies—undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack.

[Hanuman]

Not subject to critical hits or flanking.
Oozes aren't subject to SA because they cannot be flanked.


If you want my advice, go unarmed swordsage novice stone dragon belt with the DR/Hard ignoring strike on the belt. This should have your little kobald breaking through steel doors in no time.

[darksolitaire]

Oozes aren't subject to SA because they cannot be flanked.


Oozes aren't subject to sneak attack because there's nothing to sneak attack. If they weren't subject to sneak attack because they cannot be flanked, they could be sneak attacked if they are caught flat-footed, which they, to my knowledge, can't.:smallbiggrin:

[Xtomjames]

I'm pretty sure that none of this is true. At all.

And you'd be wrong. It's up to interpretation of the rules. Blindsight and immunity to critical hits are all that stand in the way of making a sneak attack. Remove those boundaries and you're good to go. Rogues are my favorite class in D&D. I've spent way too long figuring out ways to beat things like this, trust me when I say that what I've said is correct. Silent spell keeps blindsight from working, and removing the ability to smell a creature stops blindsight just as well. Bane treats attacks as pseudo-critical hits, (you gain a bonus against the creature and the weapon is for effective against them) and most oozes are variously affected by spells that freeze.


Oozes aren't subject to sneak attack because there's nothing to sneak attack. If they weren't subject to sneak attack because they cannot be flanked, they could be sneak attacked if they are caught flat-footed, which they, to my knowledge, can't.:smallbiggrin:

Not exactly, oozes have an anatomy, and there are spells that allow you to sneak attack oozes just as there are spells that allow you to sneak attack constructs.

Oozes are harder to sneak attack because of what they are, they're ooze, but they do have a central "brain" which can potentially be hit (depending on size) and there are a lot of varying rules on the matter through out the D&D 3.5 books.

All I'm doing is explaining what has worked for me in the past with various DMs while playing rogues going up against oozes and jellies.

[Zaq]

You're still wrong. None of what you said is correct. Oozes can't be sneak attacked because they're immune to crits. Bane is in no way a "pseudo-critical hit," and even if it were, that doesn't remove the flat restriction. They can't be flanked because they explicitly say that they can't be flanked. Also, blindsight does not work the way you think it does.

Some (I wouldn't say all) of what you've said would make a reasonable houserule, but in no way is it actually true, or the rules, or something that our hapless OP should rely upon.

[Taelas]

And you'd be wrong.
No, he's completely correct. None of what you said is true, at all.

You might have been able to convince various GMs that what you are saying is true, but that does not make it so.

[Haldir]

How exactly is one supposed to sneak attack something with a body of uniform substance and function?

One part of an ooze isn't more vital to the ooze than any other.

[Thespianus]

OOzes have two features that combined make them impossible to sneak attack, as far as I know:

1) They have no sensitive organs, just like an Undead.
2) They can't be flanked.

So, even with the ACF that allows you to deal half damage to creatures without sensitive organs when you flank them, partially bypassing 1, you can't sneak attack an ooze due to 2.

And, no, there's no spell that lets you sneak attack oozes. There's spells that lets you sneak attack constructs, plants and undead, but no spell for oozes.

[Groverfield]

Ghost with telepathy (Malevolence?) 12 sneak attacks at highest BaB, fade to ethereal plane, fade out, 12 sneak attacks at highest BaB


OOzes have two features that combined make them impossible to sneak attack, as far as I know:

1) They have no sensitive organs, just like an Undead.
2) They can't be flanked.

So, even with the ACF that allows you to deal half damage to creatures without sensitive organs when you flank them, partially bypassing 1, you can't sneak attack an ooze due to 2.

And, no, there's no spell that lets you sneak attack oozes. There's spells that lets you sneak attack constructs, plants and undead, but no spell for oozes.
Oozes can still be flatfooted, even if they don't have a dex score, or have uncanny dodge (RAW, they're still flatfooted, but at full AC.)

[Thespianus]

Oozes can still be flatfooted, even if they don't have a dex score, or have uncanny dodge (RAW, they're still flatfooted, but at full AC.)
Doesn't help. Even if you surprise an ooze, you still can't sneak attack it.

[Greenish]

Doesn't help. Even if you surprise an ooze, you still can't sneak attack it.Yes, but if they weren't immune to sneak attack, their immunity to flanking wouldn't prevent them from being sneak attacked.

[Seffbasilisk]

Take Penetrating Strike.

It's an alternate class feature, that gives you half sneak attack damage on things normally immune to sneak attack.

[Greenish]

Take Penetrating Strike.

It's an alternate class feature, that gives you half sneak attack damage on things normally immune to sneak attack.Penetrating Strike specifically mentions that it doesn't work on creatures that can't be flanked.


[Edit]: Xtomjames, lets be clear here. We're talking about D&D 3.5, right?

[Thespianus]

Yes, but if they weren't immune to sneak attack, their immunity to flanking wouldn't prevent them from being sneak attacked.
Exactly. It's because they have two separate features that keep them from being sneak attacked that make them "extra" immune against sneak attacks. :)

[Flawless]

Exactly. It's because they have two separate features that keep them from being sneak attacked that make them "extra" immune against sneak attacks. :)

As far as I can see, oozes aren't any more immune to SA as anything else with an immunity. The only difference is that Penetrating Strike doesn't work on them either. But any other ability that let's you bypass immunity to critical hits lets you sneak attack them.

[Greenish]

But any other ability that let's you bypass immunity to critical hits lets you sneak attack them.Such as?

Maybe Pudding Strike spell? Greater Ooze-squashing weapon crystal?



The only way to apply precision damage to an ooze I can think of is Swift Hunter.

[Thespianus]

As far as I can see, oozes aren't any more immune to SA as anything else with an immunity. The only difference is that Penetrating Strike doesn't work on them either. But any other ability that let's you bypass immunity to critical hits lets you sneak attack them.

Name one. ;-)

Edit: curse the greenish ninja