GP per cubic foot?

[Dr paradox]

hello, I'm about to toss my party an obscenely large treasure hoard they couldn't possibly take all of at the moment, and I'm wondering how to determine how much they can carry in their bags (6 backpacks and a bag of holding)

I'm assuming that the standard issue backpacks are 5 cubic feet, a quarter the volume of a bag of holding, which is 20 cubic feet.

I'm also assuming that they can carry 200 gold pieces per cubic foot, meaning that in each backpack they can carry 1000 gold, and in the bag of holding they can carry 4000 gold. is this rerasonabl, or is it tilted one way or the other?

[Eurus]

Let's see. Google says that a cubic foot of gold would be close to 1200 pounds. 50 gold pieces makes one pound. Obviously gold pieces aren't perfect and would result in a lot of empty space... 10-20%, maybe? Still, a lot more than 1000 gold, unless I'm going about this in completely the wrong way. Perhaps you could make it silver or copper instead.

[Knaight]

Let's see. Google says that a cubic foot of gold would be close to 1200 pounds. 50 gold pieces makes one pound. Obviously gold pieces aren't perfect and would result in a lot of empty space... 10-20%, maybe? Still, a lot more than 1000 gold, unless I'm going about this in completely the wrong way. Perhaps you could make it silver or copper instead.

Research done into the sphere packing problem, regarding non spherical objects that are of similar shapes and theoretically fill the same maximum value -which coins do- leave approximately 26% empty space. Look at the M&M experiment, which got fairly close to the theoretical maximum of about 74% full, where spheres usually only got about 62% full.

[Dr paradox]

hmm... checking the math here, a backpack full of gold, if 20% is lost for the spaces between the coins, comes to about 240,000 gp per backpack. taking into account six backpacks and a bag of holding that comes to...

huh. 2,400,000 gold.

Even in silver that's too much for my party at 40,000 gold per person. like,twenty times as much gold as they should have at this level. Copper is just sort of innefficient. perhaps I could make weight the deciding factor? I mean, even one cubic foot of gold pieces should be enough to put anyone over their encumberance. that leaves the bag of holding full of gold/silver, which comes to...

192,000 gold in gold pieces (32,000 per person)
or
19,200 Gold in silver pieces (3,200 per person)
or
1,920 gold in copper pieces (320 per person)

In silver, that's not so bad. still a thousand more than they are recommended to have, but I can't think of another way around it.

[Mastikator]

2.4 million gold coins weighs 48 000 pounds (21.7 metric tons), what's the strength score required to carry that without exceeding maximum carry weight? :smallwink:

Edit- my research shows that you'd need aproximately ~55 to carry this without exceeding maximum carry weight.

[Coidzor]

240 thousand gold coins weighs 4800 pounds (2.17 metric tons), what's the strength modifier required to carry that without exceeding maximum carry weight? :smallwink:

(15gp (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#cart)+ 8 gp (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#donkeyorMule)) * X

[Mastikator]

Yes, a cart and a donkey would solve their problems. They should consider getting that.

[Serpentine]

Y'know, instead of doing all that maths, we could just check the Draconomicon's:
A typical coin measures slightly more than an inch in diameter and is approximately one-tenth of an inch thick. A cubic foot (a volume 1 foot on each side) holds around 12,000 loosely stacked coins.
...A cubic foot of coins [in a pile, not stacked] fills an area roughly 5 feet on a side to a depth of about 1/2 inch, or 3 feet on a side to a depth of 1 inch or so.So you're looking at 60,000 coins and 1,200lb per backpack (hope they're strong backpacks...) and 240,000 coins at 4,800lb in the bag of holding (if my maths is right...), according to an official source.
edit: Of course, that assumes they're perfectly stacked.

[Dr paradox]

a cart and donkey, I'm afraid, are impossible. they're isolated in a city that was buried under a mountain a thousand years ago, and if they stay any place for too long, the dead citizenry start to animate. I'm tossing them a prospective huge windfall because so far, I've given them a criminally small amount of money, and they haven't complained once. (On average, they each have 150 GP, and the party is 9th level. 4e, by the way, but I suppose the cubic measurements of money are hardly system specific.)

[hamishspence]

If a coin is just over an inch wide, and just over 1/10 of an inch thick-

would a pure gold coin that size weigh significantly more than 1/50 of a pound?

And would that prove that gold coins at least, must be alloyed?

[Serpentine]

If a coin is just over an inch wide, and just over 1/10 of an inch thick-

would a pure gold coin that size weigh significantly more than 1/50 of a pound?

And would that prove that gold coins at least, must be alloyed?I was wondering that, and I'm honestly not sure whether they've got their maths right on that or not. How many coins could you slice out of a 1lb gold bar? Are they right to say it's about 50? Someone more knowledgable about numismatics and/or metalurgy than me will have to say.

[Dr paradox]

Y'know, instead of doing all that maths, we could just check the Draconomicon's:So you're looking at 60,000 coins and 1,200lb per backpack (hope they're strong backpacks...) and 240,000 coins at 4,800lb in the bag of holding (if my maths is right...), according to an official source.
edit: Of course, that assumes they're perfectly stacked.

ooh, perfect! If I assume the money is in silver, and it's too heavy to carry in their packs, at least not any more than 500 coins or so, then we end up with... 6,000 gp per person. eh, it's okay, I suppose. still three times as much as they should have at this level, but this treasure is hard to get too, optional, and I don't think I'll really be upping the treasure output for the campaign all that much. There are no magic item shops, so that's not really a problem. I think the most they could do is buy a stronghold , or get drunk and buy something pointless. or, well, I suppose there is item creation, but you can only make items of your level, I've been a bit stingy with items as well, and none of them have item creation feats at the moment.


EDIT: I'd wager that the "50 coins to a pound" measurement is off because it has in mind a different scale of coin. I'd bet they were thinking of them being about the size on an american quarter, where as the draconomicon is thinking more of a silver dollar. are these figures even from the same edition?

[Mastikator]

6000 gp per person is enough to hire a small army and build a fortress.

[Serpentine]

EDIT: I'd wager that the "50 coins to a pound" measurement is off because it has in mind a different scale of coin. I'd bet they were thinking of them being about the size on an american quarter, where as the draconomicon is thinking more of a silver dollar. are these figures even from the same edition?It's the 3.5 Draconomicon, and in 3.5 coins weight 1/50lb. Dunno if it's any different in 4th ed.
And isn't the American quarter ridonckulously teeny-tiny? :smallconfused: I'd imagine more like an Australian $1 or 20c coin.

[hamishspence]

The PHB shows a coin 30 mm (3 cm) wide. (Radius 1.5 cm)

1 inch = 24.4 cm, so 1/10 of an inch = 0.254 cm

PI x radius x radius x thickness = volume.

In cubic cm = 1.197 cubic cm is the volume of a D&D coin.

Compare to the 1 pound brick of pure gold.

Density: 19.3 grams per cubic cm
1 pound: 453.59265 g

So a 1 pound lump of pure gold has a volume of 23.5022 cubic cm

A piece of pure gold 1/50 of a pound, would have a volume of 0.47 cubic cm.


Conclusion- gold pieces can't be pure gold.

(Either that, or Draconomicon made a mistake in assuming all coins are the same thickness).

[Serpentine]

About what proportion of its weight is gold? I don't know how often, historically, gold coins were pure gold anyway...

[hamishspence]

In the Trade Goods section of the PHB, 1 pound of gold is worth 50 gp.

(Same formula applies to platinum, silver, and copper- 50 coins of the metal, can buy 1 pound of the metal).

[Serpentine]

That's not what I meant :smalltongue: I meant, "I can't follow your maths. What's the deviation there? If gold pieces can't be pure gold, just how much gold is there in each coin?"

[hamishspence]

Will depend entirely on what metal is used to change the density.

Draconomicon coins have a volume of 1.197 cubic cm
Draconomicon coins have a mass of 1/50 of a pound (9.072 grams)

Therefore Draconomicon coins have a density of 7.579 grams per cubic cm.

This is a lot lower than gold (19.30 grams per cubic cm) or even silver (10.49 grams per cubic cm) EDIT: Or even copper (at 8.94 grams per cubic cm).

So, whatever material's used to make up the bulk, must be pretty light.

One way to do it, to ensure that nobody's being cheated, and that there's no complicated alloying material to remove, is- the extra bulk is air.

So, every Draconomicon-style coin really does contain 1/50 of a pound of precious metal- but in such a way as it takes up more space than it really should.

As to how much of the volume it is is- that can also be worked out.

1/50 of a pound of gold is 0.47 cubic cm (39.3% of the volume)
1/50 of a pound of silver is 0.86 cubic cm (72.2% of the volume)
1/50 of a pound of copper is 1.01 cubic cm (84.8% of the volume)

These numbers are all rounded afterward.

[lerg2]

I'm honestly suprised that no-one has thought to mix the coins. 500 gold here, 1289 silver here, a few copper mixed in for balance, maybe even a few platinum if they're lucky.

Also, I've seen some few gold pieces, most aren't even a full circle, some have more gold at one end than another, and they're about the same size as a Canadian 2$ coin. None are exactly the same thickness and they're all handmade, which means a lot of error in size or shape. That's just my limited knowledge, though.

[Occasional Sage]

About what proportion of its weight is gold? I don't know how often, historically, gold coins were pure gold anyway...

Rarely (by which I mean, pretty much never). Even setting aside the too-soft nature of gold for the abuse coins take.

Some countries were known for having high gold (or other metal) content in their coins and those became the standard of trade, but coinage was regularly debased with lead and such to increase the coins in circulation and, at least in the short term, increase the value of the country's economy.

[Douglas]

Keep in mind that gold is very very dense. You know how lead has a reputation for being incredibly ridiculously heavy? Gold is heavier. By 70%. Take a look at the picture on this page (http://www.elmhurst.edu/~chm/vchembook/125Adensitygold.html), and look at the dimensions of each gold bar given below the picture. One of those bars is thirty pounds. Which, by D&D measures, is worth 1500 gold pieces - and that's just one bar the size of a typical brick.

Volume is not going to be the limiting factor on how much they can carry out, weight is. So don't worry about volume at all, just calculate with the weight ratio of 50 gp per pound. Oh, and maybe consider the possibility of backpacks not being sturdy enough to hold their full volume without tearing from the strain of too much weight.

The suggestion already mentioned of making it mixed coinage with silver and copper in there too is also good, but keep in mind that if your players have the time for it they will probably sort through the pile separating the coins out by type and deliberately take as much of the higher value coins as possible.

Edit: Looked up the 4e bag of holding, it can hold 10000 gp worth of gold. Backpacks, depends on how sturdy they are and how strong the characters are; I can practically guarantee you that both the backpacks' fabric and the characters' muscles will fail long before you reach backpack volume capacity with gold.

[hamishspence]

Rarely (by which I mean, pretty much never). Even setting aside the too-soft nature of gold for the abuse coins take.

Some countries were known for having high gold (or other metal) content in their coins and those became the standard of trade, but coinage was regularly debased with lead and such to increase the coins in circulation and, at least in the short term, increase the value of the country's economy.

Mind you, the density will still be too high compared to D&D coins.

Even a 9 carat cold coin (probably much too low) is probably going to be more than 7.579 grams per cubic cm.

"Crown gold" which was minted in England, pretty late, was 22 carat. And going by Wikipedia, 23 carat wasn't unheard of before then.

[Dr paradox]

Edit: Looked up the 4e bag of holding, it can hold 10000 gp worth of gold. Backpacks, depends on how sturdy they are and how strong the characters are; I can practically guarantee you that both the backpacks' fabric and the characters' muscles will fail long before you reach backpack volume capacity with gold.

aHA! okay, so that's 10,000 gold, minus the volume of the substantial amount of supplies already in the bag. so, let's call it 8,000 gold in the bag of holding, with an additional 100 for every item they take out, if it's sizeable enough.

In the bags, make it assumed they can carry... 1,000 gold each? at 50 coins to a pound, that's 20 pounds of money. hm. make that 2,000 gold, minus 100 for every substantial item in the bag?

with this arrangement, they end up with about... 3,300. that's pretty good, considering the alternatives.

[ashmanonar]

Consulting the treasure by level info in the DMG, your party of 5 players (there are additions/subtractions for bigger/smaller parties, but they generally come in form of magic items.) should have received 30,795 gold average by end of level 9.

This is of course totally ignoring the issue of magic items (which are really a substantial part of the treasure you're assumed to get in 4e.)

[rayne_dragon]

Mind you, the density will still be too high compared to D&D coins.

Even a 9 carat cold coin (probably much too low) is probably going to be more than 7.579 grams per cubic cm.

"Crown gold" which was minted in England, pretty late, was 22 carat. And going by Wikipedia, 23 carat wasn't unheard of before then.

We're presuming that whatever fantasy world D&D takes place in has the same gravity as Earth though... there's no reason the weight discreprancy couldn't be caused by that. Or perhaps gold has a different density in the D&Dverse.

[hamishspence]

Different density would work better than different gravity- since gold is much more dense than silver, but in D&D (if you go by Draconomicon) the coins are the same size and density.

[Tengu_temp]

My explanation about the gold coin weight/size disrepancy: WotC sucks at all math related to real life. The costs for everyday items, wages and rules for the profession skill reinforce this hypothesis.

[ericgrau]

Bags of holding have a weight limit, which is more relevant. There's 50 gp per pound. I think backpacks likewise would tear around 100 lbs. That's 5,000 gp. The type I bag of holding has a 250 lb. or 30 cubic foot weight limit. That comes to 12,500 gp.

As for coin size, ok gold coins must be smaller than silver coins, get over it. Given how valuable gold is, it's reasonable to make small coins.

[rayne_dragon]

My explanation about the gold coin weight/size disrepancy: WotC sucks at all math related to real life. The costs for everyday items, wages and rules for the profession skill reinforce this hypothesis.

I've always presumed the explaination was that most things in the system originated as a simple abstraction to make things fun without being too complicated and people progressively have tried to add detail and complexity while trying to maintain some degree of simplicity of booking for things that complexity would make really finiky... like currency. Just look at modern currency and how complicated it is even with all the comparitively advanced technology at our disposal and our large, more-or-less-stable countries. The political situation in most D&D settings makes me think that the coinage system would make pretty much everyone throw up their hands in frustration and go back to bartering. :smalltongue:

[Knaight]

If a coin is just over an inch wide, and just over 1/10 of an inch thick-

would a pure gold coin that size weigh significantly more than 1/50 of a pound?

And would that prove that gold coins at least, must be alloyed?

Quick math:
Coin volume = .025(pi) cubic inch.
Gold Density = 11.06 normal ounces per cubic inch.
One Pound = 12 normal ounces.
Coin Mass = .0723 Pounds
Coin Mass, 1 Significant figure: .07 pounds.
Coin Mass, Fractional = 1/14 pound.

[NNescio]

I'm honestly suprised that no-one has thought to mix the coins. 500 gold here, 1289 silver here, a few copper mixed in for balance, maybe even a few platinum if they're lucky.

Also, I've seen some few gold pieces, most aren't even a full circle, some have more gold at one end than another, and they're about the same size as a Canadian 2$ coin. None are exactly the same thickness and they're all handmade, which means a lot of error in size or shape. That's just my limited knowledge, though.

Sounds like they are clipped, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coin_clipping) since valuable coins aren't supposed to differ that much ('weight'-wise), even when made by hand.

Unless they were all minted in different countries.

[Rockphed]

Bags of holding have a weight limit, which is more relevant. There's 50 gp per pound. I think backpacks likewise would tear around 100 lbs. That's 5,000 gp. The type I bag of holding has a 250 lb. or 30 cubic foot weight limit. That comes to 12,500 gp.

As for coin size, ok gold coins must be smaller than silver coins, get over it. Given how valuable gold is, it's reasonable to make small coins.

Or the coins are all rings. Somebody mentioned that if the excess volume is air then gold coinage needs to be about 40% gold, so have rings of different inner diameters. Silver is thicker than gold and thinner than copper. Voila, problem solved.

[Dr paradox]

well, let's see... according to Basic Fantasy, a gold coin is one tenth of a pound, and it's five coins to a cubic inch. also, a backpack can only carry 3 cubic feet or 40 pounds, meaning that by those rules, each backpack can carry 400 gp.

furthermore, going by the phb stats for a bag of holding, each bag of holding can carry 200 pounds, meaning that it can only hold 2000 gold. in total, with six party members, this means that each person gets...

733 gold??? what the heck? how does a party manage to ever break even on a dungeon excursion in Basic Fantasy?

okay, let's bump that up a bit... each coin is 1/20 of a pound, meaning that a backpack that can hold, say, sixty pounds, can hold 600 GP, plus a bag of holding carrying 4000, meaning the per member take goes up to about 1,270 gp. grargh, STILL too low.

bumping it up to the recommended one coin equals a FIFTIETH of a pound, each backpack, holding sixty pounds, now holds 3,000 gold each, and the bag of holding goes up to 10,000 gold, making the split 4,670 gp.


annnd that's twice the amount of gold the book says they should have at ninth level. wait, actually, where in the 4e books does it say the recommended wealth per level? I've been going by the character builder.

[Ashtar]

Or the coins are all rings. Somebody mentioned that if the excess volume is air then gold coinage needs to be about 40% gold, so have rings of different inner diameters. Silver is thicker than gold and thinner than copper. Voila, problem solved.

That's a perfect solution! It's also historically valid, see Chinese coins. They strung them together to make strings of coins.

[hamishspence]

While I was thinking of hollow coins (look normal, but inside is an air space)- so that they look like the one in PHB, rings actually may make more sense physically.

[Autolykos]

Especially since it's frickin' hard to cast hollow coins, and nigh impossible stamping them - definitely not worth the effort.

[Douglas]

annnd that's twice the amount of gold the book says they should have at ninth level. wait, actually, where in the 4e books does it say the recommended wealth per level? I've been going by the character builder.
As I recall, standard starting gear in 4e is one magic item of level+1, one magic item of level, and one magic item of level-1, plus gold to spend on miscellaneous other stuff equal to the cost of a magic item of level-1. Total gold value for a level 9 character by that metric would be a level 10 item plus a level 9 item plus two level 8 items = 5000+4200+3400+3400 = 16000.

[Maerok]

Does anyone use platinum pieces?

[Fhaolan]

Does anyone use platinum pieces?

In RL, platinum was only found in South America and in Russia in quantities enough to be useful, and given that the stuff wasn't hard enough to be useful for tools, but it was just hard enough to be annoying to work with with respect to jewelry and the like, and it was extremely difficult to purify, it was considered to be 'junk metal' until the 19th century. In the 18th century (which is about the time people figured out that platinum was a metal in it's own right and not just a impurity in others) it was actually used by counterfeiters in South America to debase gold and silver coins in the 18th century.

It wasn't until the 19th century in Russia did they figure out how to purify platinum enough to become valuable in it's own right, and they issued a few coins as regular currency. That didn't last long. Ever since then, platinum was used for coins only for special commemerative issue. Basically collectors stuff.

[B1okHead]

Noooooooo! The catgirls! O.o

[Dr paradox]

As I recall, standard starting gear in 4e is one magic item of level+1, one magic item of level, and one magic item of level-1, plus gold to spend on miscellaneous other stuff equal to the cost of a magic item of level-1. Total gold value for a level 9 character by that metric would be a level 10 item plus a level 9 item plus two level 8 items = 5000+4200+3400+3400 = 16000.

well, they've basically got the magic items they need. or, well, I suppose not too many rings or head slot stuff, or arm slot, or boots... but anyway, all that's left is the spending money, which I'm going to count as level 10 for them, since I belive that their next level is about 200 xp away. checking the phb for magic item prices...

...4,200.

how did the character builder end up with 2,400 for level 9 characters??

well, I guess them pulling out 4,670 gold is fine after all. the problem is finding a safe place to store it afterwards.

[Jay R]

The limiting factor for gold isn't size; it's weight. The average backpack made of modern materials can hold maybe 100 pounds. A cloth backpack sewn with ordinary heavy cord? I suspect 50 - 80 pounds.

[Dr paradox]

The limiting factor for gold isn't size; it's weight. The average backpack made of modern materials can hold maybe 100 pounds. A cloth backpack sewn with ordinary heavy cord? I suspect 50 - 80 pounds.

...wasn't that already what I was saying? I mean, determining how much they could carry by weight?

[Jay R]

...wasn't that already what I was saying? I mean, determining how much they could carry by weight?

Pretty much. The only thing I added was the limit to how much weight a backpack can hold.