In 3rd edition, does DR stack?

[Dark Kerman]

Hey, I was wondering if anyone could answer this question, as i'm currently playing Neverwinter nights (which uses 3rd) whereas all my sourcebooks are 3rd edition (so may not apply) thanks!

[The Glyphstone]

No. Whenever you apply DR, choose the highest one that isn't negated. There are a handful of very rare exceptions, but, say, DR 5/Law and DR 5/Silver is still only DR 5, unless the weapon is both Lawful and Silver - it's not DR10 against a non-Lawful non-Silver weapon.

[Dark Kerman]

Thank you kindly Glyphstone! To be quite honest, I never knew why DR and for that matter AC (in some cases) doesn't stack.

Surely if I add more layers of metal over my layers of metal, that would make it harder to hit me? :smallconfused:

[Boci]

Surely if I add more layers of metal over my layers of metal, that would make it harder to hit me? :smallconfused:

The impact of a monster's DR varies from character to character, depending mostly on how many attacks they typically make per round. By not allowing them to stack, you narrow the already wide range of impact it can have on a challange.

[Dark Kerman]

That is a very good point. Still, it gives no good reason as to why AC sometimes won't stack. :smalltongue:

[Boci]

That is a very good point. Still, it gives no good reason as to why AC sometimes won't stack. :smalltongue:

AC almost always only won't stack if its from the same source.

[Kobold-Bard]

Thank you kindly Glyphstone! To be quite honest, I never knew why DR and for that matter AC (in some cases) doesn't stack.

Surely if I add more layers of metal over my layers of metal, that would make it harder to hit me? :smallconfused:

Real answer: WotC overestimated how useful armour & DR etc. were, so disallowed stacking to prevent "abuse" of the system.

As for wearing multiple armours, if you want to extra protection you'd have to take a pretty impressive penalty to your Dexterity, probably cancelling out the bonus you'd get from the armour, no to mention the penalties wearing 2 siuts of armour over one-another would have on your attacks etc. due to reduced mobility. Just not worth it.

Double-shield use however, I reckon should work.

[Soranar]

AC

you have 10 base
+ natural AC (how thick your skin is)
+ armor AC (self explanatory)
+ deflection AC (magical forcefield around you that acts like armor)
+ shield AC (see above)
+ magic shield bonus (magical forcefield that enhances your shield)
+ dodge AC (DEX + dodge feats/abilities)
+ other (special AC bonus granted by classes)

As long as it's not the same source it stacks, the only exception is dodge which also stacks with itself.

Note that a deflection bonus (say a magic ring) always counts as a magic armor (so they don't stack)

Same reason bracers don't stack with armor (they're both armor)

Finally, touch AC is not affected by armor, shield or natural unless stated otherwise (some feats/class features can add those to touch AC but it's fairly rare).

[hamishspence]

Diablo 2: Diablerie (3.0) maintained this with armour and the various armour-like items.

So, you could kit yourself out with belt, boots, helm, and gloves, and boost your AC, but it wouldn't stack with armour or shield.

[Blisstake]

Real answer: WotC overestimated how useful armour & DR etc. were, so disallowed stacking to prevent "abuse" of the system.

As for wearing multiple armours, if you want to extra protection you'd have to take a pretty impressive penalty to your Dexterity, probably cancelling out the bonus you'd get from the armour, no to mention the penalties wearing 2 siuts of armour over one-another would have on your attacks etc. due to reduced mobility. Just not worth it.

Double-shield use however, I reckon should work.

You don't actually lose dexterity for wearing armor though - you just have a maximum dex bonus, which wouldn't matter for someone with 10 dexterity or something.

[Kobold-Bard]

You don't actually lose dexterity for wearing armor though - you just have a maximum dex bonus, which wouldn't matter for someone with 10 dexterity or something.

I know. It was a hypothetical issue of stacking armour.

[MeeposFire]

In neverwinter nights a bunch of the DR/- abilities do stack. IN fact there is usually a blurb about it in the ability description. IN the pen and paper game it only stacks if it says so (and there are a number of cases that do mostly again with DR/-).

Neverwinter Nights has unusual stacking rules in general such as items giving bonus atributes. In pen and paper they won't stack since they will all be typed and they tend to all be enhancement (if they arent they would stack) but in NWN I forget whether they are typed or not but they all stack in that game. So if you have a +1 str item and a +3 str item you get +4 str whereas in PP you would only get a +3.

[Dark Kerman]

As long as it's not the same source it stacks, the only exception is dodge which also stacks with itself

@Soronar: Yes, I know, I just never get why when I cast mage armour, and get a +1 to deflect, it somehow is negated from the +4 to deflection I get from shield. Logically an enemy would have to push there way through both layers, meaning that the AC should infact stack. :smallyuk:


As for wearing multiple armours, if you want to extra protection you'd have to take a pretty impressive penalty to your Dexterity

@Kobold Bard: I know, that was just a (rather poor) example of the same type of AC bonus not stacking, however the deflection point is a bit less faulty.


In neverwinter nights a bunch of the DR/- abilities do stack. IN fact there is usually a blurb about it in the ability description. IN the pen and paper game it only stacks if it says so (and there are a number of cases that do mostly again with DR/-


Hmm, interesting, think I shall prod around with that, I know it does have a thorough dislike of AC stacking though. Thanks for the information.

[Boci]

@Soronar: Yes, I know, I just never get why when I cast mage armour, and get a +1 to deflect, it somehow is negated from the +4 to deflection I get from shield. Logically an enemy would have to push there way through both layers, meaning that the AC should infact stack. :smallyuk:

Mage armour gives +4 armour bonus to AC, so it will stack with a deflection bonus. The spell shield gives a +4 shield bonus to AC, so it will stack with both of the above.

[Dark Kerman]

Mage armour gives +4 armour bonus to AC, so it will stack with a deflection bonus. The spell shield gives a +4 shield bonus to AC, so it will stack with both of the above.

You are correct, I am an idiot. :smallyuk:

I guess what the point is i'm trying to say (despite fumbling my analogy checks) is that when magic is involved, i'm surprised same type armour doesn't stack. :smalltongue:

[Fitz10019]

Mage armour gives +4 armour bonus to AC, so it will stack with a deflection bonus. The spell shield gives a +4 shield bonus to AC, so it will stack with both of the above.

That's the 3.5e definition of Mage Armor. The OP is referring to NWN PC game, in which Mage Armor has this effect: "The selected target gains the following bonuses to his AC: +1 natural armor, +1 dodge, +1 deflection, and +1 enhancement." And the Shield spell has this effect: "The caster gains a +4 deflection bonus to AC."

Hey, Dark, you may find this link (http://nwn.wikia.com) useful for lots of NWN-precise information.

[Dark Kerman]

Hey, Dark, you may find this link useful for lots of NWN-precise information.

@Fitz10019 Thanks a bundle! I wager I can find a lot of awkward, game-specific info for this. :smallbiggrin:

[Groverfield]

"Enhancement bonus to (deflection, armor, etc.)" adds to that AC bonus, but it won't stack with other enhancement bonuses to said AC value. Also note that these enhancement bonuses usually come in the form of normal enchanting (i.e. +3 Tower shield still gives only 4 shield AC, but it has 3 shield enhancement as well, giving it 7 total shield AC)

[Kenneth]

Yes and no.. DR/ blah does not stack you take the highest DR/- does stack with itself.


the 3 types of bonuses that stack are as follows Dodge, Luck, and untyped.

DR/- is untyped, hence why it stacks withitself.

[Urpriest]

The AC bonus of armor represents that it's harder to hit you because hitting you requires hitting the weak spots in the armor. Wearing two of the same suit of armor gives you the same weak spots, so it doesn't change this.

If AC represented needing to push through the armor to hit, then armor would decrease after successful attacks.

[Dark Kerman]

@Urpriest- Good point, I hadn't considered it like that. However, there would still be different layers, with different weakspots in different areas (such as mage armour over chainmail) that would be still logically more difficult that each of them on there own.

[The Glyphstone]

@Urpriest- Good point, I hadn't considered it like that. However, there would still be different layers, with different weakspots in different areas (such as mage armour over chainmail) that would be still logically more difficult that each of them on there own.

Though some armors actually include lesser armors inside them already. Full plate, for example, has a thick layer of padding underneath (padded armor). There are other rulesets out there that go into armor with more detail, but D&D is heavily abstracted, to where they just said 'armor only counts once, no matter what kind of armor it is'.

For specifically magically conjured armor vs. mundane armor, I'd chalk that up to the fact that when they were writing the game, they never imagined arcane spellcasters would want to be wearing armor, because of Arcane Spell Failure. The ability to ignore that didn't appear until Complete Arcane (or Warrior, whichever was first). Similar to clerics not self-buffing and wading into melee, it wasn't part of their game design paradigm, so having Mage armor not stack with a chain shirt wasn't an issue to them.

[Boci]

For specifically magically conjured armor vs. mundane armor, I'd chalk that up to the fact that when they were writing the game, they never imagined arcane spellcasters would want to be wearing armor, because of Arcane Spell Failure. The ability to ignore that didn't appear until Complete Arcane (or Warrior, whichever was first). Similar to clerics not self-buffing and wading into melee, it wasn't part of their game design paradigm, so having Mage armor not stack with a chain shirt wasn't an issue to them.

Possibly, but then again Mage Armour is not personal, its "Creature touched". I know WotC often assumed a different splay style, but buffing party members with MAge Armor probably occured to them....Right?

[Yrcrazypa]

Of course not! It says Mage Armor right there in the spell name! Why would a Fighter, or a Rogue be getting it cast on him? They aren't mages!

[Fitz10019]

Possibly, but then again Mage Armour is not personal, its "Creature touched". I know WotC often assumed a different splay style, but buffing party members with MAge Armor probably occured to them....Right?

Shield is Personal. Monks aren't new to 3.5.

[The Glyphstone]

Possibly, but then again Mage Armour is not personal, its "Creature touched". I know WotC often assumed a different splay style, but buffing party members with MAge Armor probably occured to them....Right?

...I got nothin'.

[MeeposFire]

Yes and no.. DR/ blah does not stack you take the highest DR/- does stack with itself.


the 3 types of bonuses that stack are as follows Dodge, Luck, and untyped.

DR/- is untyped, hence why it stacks withitself.

Careful DR/- does not always stack with other sources of DR/-. For instance it would not stack with the binder getting DR/- along with a barbarians DR/- but both of those would stack from the bonus provided by earth elemental grafts (since it says so in the description). You have to look at them individually. Notice that DR/-abilities aren't generally bonuses so the bonus rules don't apply.

[Arundel]

If I remember correctly, NWN has crazy laughable stacking rules for most things. I want to say that by the end of Hordes of the Underdark my sorcerer had near (or maybe over) 50 CHA from item stacking.

[MeeposFire]

It is funny because they did not have attribute types such as enhancement bonuses so they all stack. NWN does not use the standard 3E rules it just uses it as a base and there are slight differences. Incidentally the system also solves a number of the key problems in 3E since you don't get access and can't use spells that can be used in interesting ways. You are stuck buffing, blasting, and SoDs (maybe a few others but that is about it). You are also stuck on the ground with much fewer ways of screwing over physics which makes classes like the fighter seem a whole lot better. Then they play real 3E and find out everything they know is wrong.

[Arundel]

Until the expansion packs broke (http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Isaac%27s_lesser_missile_storm) everything (http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Isaac's_greater_missile_storm). (http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Premonition)

[MeeposFire]

Those are nasty but they aren't that special. It is just damage and considering the items you get in that game you can make yourself practically invulnerable. I will admit those were brutal on the henchmen though. Poor poor Deekin.

[Arundel]

As I recall the terrible part of the missile storm spells was that all 20+ missiles had their own SR roll, so between that and time stop a good Sorc could faceroll anything and everything.

Oh, thats right. As area of effect you could belt out two-three of those per time stop.

[The Glyphstone]

the 3 types of bonuses that stack are as follows Dodge, Luck, and untyped.


Technically, circumstance bonuses stack too, if they're from different circumstances, but they're not reliable to count on.

[Blisstake]

Technically, circumstance bonuses stack too, if they're from different circumstances, but they're not reliable to count on.

Or circumstancial, if you would.

[The Glyphstone]

Or circumstancial, if you would.

I was steadfastedly avoiding making that pun...

[Dark Kerman]

You are also stuck on the ground with much fewer ways of screwing over physics which makes classes like the fighter seem a whole lot better. Then they play real 3E and find out everything they know is wrong.

@Meeposfire, I know, NWN was one of the first things to get me into DnD, it gave me such mangled views of the martial classes. :smalltongue:


Until the expansion packs broke everything.

They aren't *that* broken. Typically the average BBEG in the game could take enough of those and live (think Mephistopheles) and mages are still a problem. Ever try having a duel with Sodalis without a sunburst? Guy has enough anti-magic buffs to ruin you.

Edit: Oh, and if you maximised it for an 9th level slot, it can do (by level 40) 80x6 damage, or, more correctly, 480 damage on one enemy. (Whereas a maximised firebrand actually works out a lot better against mobs of enemies)

[Fitz10019]

NWN was one of the first things to get me into DnD

Same here, starting with Baldur's Gate. I thought controlling the NWN henchmen was incredibly infuriating, after to perfect whole-party control of BG. Then I started playing online, with other people -- they were even more 'disobedient' than the henchmen! In hindsight, those henchmen were the appropriate (and in my case necessary) preparation for playing with real people.