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Phosphate
2011-08-06, 03:28 PM
http://images.wikia.com/dragonage/images/e/ec/Creature-Revenant2.jpg

It calls to me, tells me what I need to know. Shows me where I need to go. In the end, it his him that this body belongs to. - Huer, weak willed Revenant

Various things can happen when, willingly or no, a spirit enters a host. The host can either die instantly, be consumed in time, be possessed, or other such things. It can gain supernatural powers, incorporeality, the ability to foresee the future, or communicate with other spirits. A Shadow Revenant happens when, by his own choice, someone allows a spirit to inhabit his body and experience the world through his senses. For this minor service, the spirit gives his host various advantages in battle, strengthens him, but at the same time erodes his soul.

Still, this help is not immense, and Shadow Revenants, by large, remain fairly mundane in their abilities.

One interesting thing to notice about Shadow Revenants is that they have a rather individualized relation with their hosted spirit. They don't share the same mind - the spirit only influences the body of the Revenant. The Revenant and the Shadow keep themselves as two distinct individuals at all times - and the spirit cannot grant the revenant abilities that rely on perception or cognition.

Organisation: Shadow Revenants are valued, both as leaders and soldiers, in the legions of evil. They are sturdy warriors and dedicated to their cause. However, there is not too many of them - most evil spirits are not kind enough to share a body with someone in a way a Shadow Revenant requires.

Adventuring: Shadow Revenants adventure for power, influence, and money. Also, they may have a villainy hidden agenda or something, but the point is, any goal they may have, they are most definitely not going to let others stand in their way.

Abilities: From very early on, Constitution is important for a Revenant, due to the heavy toll death has on him. Also, Strength, obviously, is important for any melee-based class. A high Wisdom would also be quite important, as some of a Revenant's trick abilities require a decent Will Save.

Races: Any race can produce Shadow Revenants, but the spirits prefer profiting from their host as long as they can, so most come from long-lived races. Humans and Goblins, for instance, have almost no Shadow Revenants.

Alignment: Any evil. If you have levels in Warlock, however, you can ignore this requirement. Note: the spirit inside the Shadow Revenant does NOT need to be evil. If you stop being evil, you are no longer allowed to gain levels in this class. All levels you gained already will still work. However, this does not include the capstone and the special abilities granted at levels 4, 7, 11, 15, and 19.

Starting Age: simple
Starting Gold: as paladin
Hit Dice: d12

Skill points per level: 8+int mod (x4 at 1st level)
Class Skills: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Disguise, Escape Artist, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Heal, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (Arcana, History, Nobility and royalty, Religion, The Planes), Listen, Move Silently, Profession, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Speak Language, Spot, Survival,Swim, Tumble, Use Psionic Device, Use Rope

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Stances Known

1st|+1|+2|+2|+2|Nature of a Revenant, Pull|1

2nd|+2|+3|+3|+3|Inhuman Evasion|2

3rd|+3|+3|+3|+3|Double Strike|2

4th|+4|+4|+4|+4||3

5th|+5|+4|+4|+4|Profane Health|3

6th|+6/1|+5|+5|+5|Occult Sense|3

7th|+7/2|+5|+5|+5||4

8th|+8/3|+6|+6|+6|Shield Wall|4

9th|+9/4|+6|+6|+6|Spiritual Vigilance|4

10th|+10/5|+7|+7|+7|Great Strength, Enlargement|4

11th|+11/6/1|+7|+7|+7||5

12th|+12/7/2|+8|+8|+8|Mass Pull|5

13th|+13/8/3|+8|+8|+8|Armor Merge|5

14th|+14/9/4|+9|+9|+9|Curse of Death|5

15th|+15/10/5|+9|+9|+9||5

16th|+16/11/6/1|+10|+10|+10|Nothing More Terrifying|6

17th|+17/12/7/2|+10|+10|+10|Confined Respite|6

18th|+18/13/8/3|+11|+11|+11|Partial Spiritual Swap|6

19th|+19/14/9/4|+11|+11|+11||6

20th|+20/15/10/5|+12|+12|+12|True Revenant|6
[/table]

Class Features

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: A Shadow Revenant is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, one exotic weapon of his choice, and the bastard sword. He is proficient with all shields (tower shields included) and all types of armor, and does not take speed penalties because of the weight of his armor (all other penalties, like spell failure and fatigue after sleeping apply).

Partial Initiator: A Shadow Revenant has partial skill in martial combat, though no formal training. He may learn and use stances, but not maneuvers in general. He selects his stances from any 5 disciplines, decided on at level 1. He must meet all prerequisites before learning a stance, and if the prerequisites of a stance include learning a maneuver - he is not allowed to learn that stance at all. Treat his initiator level as his class level + 4.

Nature of a Revenant: Shadow Revenants, due to their state as two souls living in the same body, one enhancing and consuming the other, handle aging and dying a bit differently than most. While aging, they do not incur penalties to their physical stats, but instead of increasing, their Charisma decreases by 1. Also, they do not die from massive damage - instead, would they fail the Fortitude save, they fall unconscious. If a Shadow Revenant dies and is resurrected, he loses all experience up to his gained level, due to the struggle to keep his hosted spirit with him.

Pull (Psi): The Shadow Revenant forces an opponent to be drawn near him, sending his hosted spirit to draw the opponent's spirit on the astral plane. This ability works in an Antipsionic Field (and in an Antimagic Field, obviously), but doesn't work if astral travel is prohibited in any way. As a swift action, the Shadow Revenant selects 1 target within 100 feet of himself, line of sight required. That target is drawn 15 feet towards the Shadow Revenant, +5 feet per 5 class levels (rounded down). For every size category the Shadow Revenant is larger than the target, add 10 feet to this, for every size category he is smaller, subtract 5. The distance traveled by the target can't be greater than the initial distance between himself and the Shadow Revenant. After he completes this movement, roll a Will Save against the target's Reflex Save, and if your result is higher, the target is forced into a prone position. This ability can be used once per encounter per 3 class levels.

Inhuman Evasion (Ex): Like Evasion, except you gain the benefit no matter how heavy your armor is. Additionally, you may ignore the Maximum Dex Bonus of your armor.

Double Strike: Whenever a Shadow Revenant attacks with a melee weapon, you can make an additional strike at -5 Base Attack Bonus. This can be used both while Full Attacking and while attacking as a standard action, but only once per turn.

Profane Health (Su): At level 5, a Shadow Revenant becomes immune to all diseases, magical or otherwise, and the effect of poisons in his body cannot last for more than 24 hours.

Occult Clash (Su): Using the spirit inside him lets a Shadow Revenant feel some of the supernatural. Also, the spirit can share some of his combat experience with the Revenant. He gains a +4 insight bonus to attack and AC, +1 per 5 class levels, when fighting with demons and ghosts. His weapons are treated as having Ghost Touch+1 on them.

Shield Wall (Ex): As long as he has a shield, a Shadow Revenant can Fight Defensively without taking a penalty to attack, and the bonus to AC becomes untyped. Also, if he is attacked with a ranged weapon, there is a 25% chance it will hit your shield instead - roll d4 and on a 4 you take no damage.

Spiritual Vigilance (Su): You retain your dexterity bonus to AC, even if you are unconscious or helpless in any other way, or if you are struck by an invisible attacker, but not if you are grappled. Also, you can't be flanked.

Great Strength (Su): The spirit enhances his host's strength so much that he is capable of incredible feats. At level 10 he gains a +2 bonus to his base Strength, he may wield any two-handed weapon made for his size as a one-handed weapon in his main hand only, and ignores the maximum dexterity bonus and half of the armor check penalty of tower shields.

Enlargement: The Shadow Revenant becomes one size category larger. This is done by increasing his size just above his current category (so both an 8'0" and a 4'1" humanoid would become 8'1"). For every feet that you would gain in height, you must pay 150 XP. This is rounded up (so you must always pay a minimum of 150).

Mass Pull (Psi): Just like Pull, except it is a free action, it affects all opponents up to 50 feet away from you, line of sight NOT required, and ignores size differences. Roll your Will Save only once, and compare it with each target's Ref Save separately. This ability has a 2d6 cooldown, but can otherwise be used at will.

Aura of Weakness (Sp): Suppressing this ability takes one Free Action per turn. Reduce the speed of all targets that have an Int score (no matter how small) in an area with a radius of 35 feet + 5 feet per class level/5 by 15, and they are no longer allowed to run. Also, they take a -2 penalty on attack rolls and a -4 penalty on damage rolls. Also, if they would try to teleport out of this spell's area, they must make a Will Save against the Shadow Revenant's Will Save, and should they fail, the spell is wasted. The aura affects anything inside it that has a Strength score, no matter if it is organic or not. The creatures inside the aura may attempt to make saves against its effects, but those work only temporarily. They can make a Fortitude Save against 10+class level/2+number of times they already tried to save against this ability. If they succeed, they ignore the effects for 1d6 rounds. If they fail, they take 1d6 damage for the strenuous attempt.

Armor Merge (Su): The Shadow Revenant gains a deeper connection with his armor, treating it as a part of himself. This feature only works if the Shadow Revenant is wearing heavy armor. He may ignore 10+Str modifier pounds from the weight of his armor. Also, he gains DR/-- equal to his boosted AC/10 rounded up against weapon damage, natural weapon damage, pressure damage, falling damage, weather damage and sonic damage.

Curse of Death (Sp): The Shadow Revenant curses an individual to his inevitable demise as a full round action. This ability can be used once per day, and the only range requirement is that the target must be on the same plane. Also, it doesn't stack, and the Shadow Revenant must have personally seen the face of all his targets. After you state a target, he must roll a Will Save against a DC equal to your 15+class level/2. If he succeeds, you may no longer use Curse of Death on him, ever. If he fails, he may make another Will Save against the same DC. If he succeeds, he learns who used this ability on him (the ability still works though), if he fails, nothing happens. The target takes 1d10 lethal damage per minute until he dies, this cannot be dispelled in any way.

Nothing More Terrifying (Ex): From level 16, a Shadow Revenant is immune to fear effects. Also, you gain the Abrasive and Aggressive character traits, even if you already have character traits (this basically increases the number of character traits you can have), and a +4 bonus to intimidate checks in combat only.

Confined Respite (Su): You gain Fast Healing 2 while wearing Heavy Armor.

Partial Spiritual Swap (Su): You may allow your hosted spirit to take your place and act on your behalf physically, not mentally. Activating and deactivating this ability is a standard action. While this ability is active, you are immune to sleep effects and cannot become fatigued or exhausted, you are not allowed to talk or do anything that involves talking, your Charisma is treated as being 1, and you take a -4 penalty to attack rolls, balance rolls, concentration rolls, spot checks and search checks. However, you are treated as sleeping for the whole duration, and gain the benefits of having slept for that duration.

True Revenant (Su): At level 20, a Shadow Revenant embraces his true power. He cannot be stunned, staggered, dazed, blinded, dazzled, deafened, disabled or petrified. Additionally, while wearing heavy armor, he is immune to critical hits.

Special Abilities: At levels 4, 7, 11, 15 and 19, a Shadow Revenant gains a special ability of her choice from among the following options.


Improved Pull
Prerequisites: none
Benefit: The target of Pull receives 1d6 damage per 6 feet traveled. Additionally, you gain 1 more use of Pull per encounter.

Greater Pull
Prerequisites: Improved Pull, Wis 15+
Benefit: Instead of being drawn a particular distance based on size and class levels, the target of Pull is drawn the entire distance between himself and the Shadow Revenant.

Revenant Resistance
Prerequisites: none
Benefit: Choose either one of cold or sonic. You gain DR equal to your class level against that type. This can be taken twice. If you take it twice for the same descriptor, you become immune instead.

Sealed Fate
Prerequisites: Int 15+
Benefit: You may cast True Strike as a Spell-Like ability.

Execution
Prerequisites: Sealed Fate
Benefit: A Shadow Revenant's weapons are treated as Vorpal for the purpose of fighting creatures that are under 50% of their maximum hit points.

Extension
Prerequisites: Aura of Weakness
Benefit: The areas of Aura of Weakness and Mass Pull are equal to whichever one of them is larger +5 feet.

Shaping
Prerequisites: Extension
Benefit: Aura of Weakness no longer affects certain targets selected by you.

Stance Mastery
Prerequisites: Level 11 or higher
Benefit: You can have 2 stances active at the same time. As long as you have less than 5 but more than 1 levels in any other martial initiator class, you lose the benefits of this ability.

Armor Bond
Prerequisites: Armor Merge
Benefit: You may add your Con modifier to AC. This only works if you are wearing heavy armor.

Greater Enlargement
Prerequisites: Enlargement
Benefit: The first time you take this, absolutely nothing happens. The second time you take it, you advance 1 additional size. This can only be taken twice.

Dark Kerman
2011-08-06, 04:26 PM
Some ability to spread the taint? Let others be corrupted?

Phosphate
2011-08-07, 12:08 AM
This is not a darkspawn, lol. As I said, WILLING spirit hosts. Anyway, will add the rest of his abilities now.

EDIT: Ok, done.

Phosphate
2011-08-07, 07:11 AM
So, opinions?

nonsi
2011-08-07, 08:05 AM
Requiring a player to choose his 5 disciplines at 1st level is metagaming.
Unless this class can break the game by having the liberty to choose a discipline on-the-fly (something I don't see happening), this restriction is pointless.

Pyromancer999
2011-08-07, 08:48 AM
Sounds like if the Shadow Revenant dies, they lose most or all of their levels in this class. Not good.

Also, the fluff in the intro sounds almost exactly like.....a Binder.

Phosphate
2011-08-07, 11:26 AM
Requiring a player to choose his 5 disciplines at 1st level is metagaming.
Unless this class can break the game by having the liberty to choose a discipline on-the-fly (something I don't see happening), this restriction is pointless.

So what do you suggest?


Sounds like if the Shadow Revenant dies, they lose most or all of their levels in this class. Not good.

Um...no. He has a 1/8 chance to lose all levels.


Also, the fluff in the intro sounds almost exactly like.....a Binder.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't a Binder force mere vestiges, or fragments of souls to do his bidding? A Shadow Revenant draws his power from a single, complete spirit, and only because the spirit feels like helping him.

Pyromancer999
2011-08-07, 11:32 AM
So what do you suggest?



Um...no. He has a 1/8 chance to lose all levels.

That's still way too much of a chance. Not good to ever lose all class levels.



Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't a Binder force mere vestiges, or fragments of souls to do his bidding? A Shadow Revenant draws his power from a single, complete spirit, and only because the spirit feels like helping him.

No, not really. A Binder calls up vestiges, agreeing to share his/her body with them, allowing them to indirectly experience the world through them. Vestiges will bind to and aid almost anyone, and if the binder doesn't make a good binding check, a vestige will force a binder to act a certain way. So, yeah, except for the complete spirit part, it sounds like a Binder.

Howler Dagger
2011-08-07, 11:38 AM
why do they have to be evil? it sounds like if the spirit doesnt have to be evil, what makes it so evil? it sounds alot like binders, but they didnt have to be evil. You could make any non-good. It would open up the class to parties where they didnt want to have evil people in them.

Phosphate
2011-08-07, 11:38 AM
That's still way too much of a chance. Not good to ever lose all class levels.


Let me put it this way. Outsiders can't be resurrected. If your DM would allow you to play an Outsider PC, would you refuse? Thought so.




No, not really. A Binder calls up vestiges, agreeing to share his/her body with them, allowing them to indirectly experience the world through them. Vestiges will bind to and aid almost anyone, and if the binder doesn't make a good binding check, a vestige will force a binder to act a certain way. So, yeah, except for the complete spirit part, it sounds like a Binder.

Normal spirits don't aid almost anyone...ask them. Anyway the "experience the world through them" is more from Dragon Age than the fluff of any class.

Anyway, there are many things you can do with the same source of power. Think about the difference between two sorcerers, one specializing in necromancy and one in conjuration (healing).

Pyromancer999
2011-08-07, 11:44 AM
Let me put it this way. Outsiders can't be resurrected. If your DM would allow you to play an Outsider PC, would you refuse? Thought so.


I am the DM. Also, I've had some players play Outsider PCs. They enjoyed it, mainly because if their character died, they died. Didn't have to worry about being completely powerless upon ressurrection. At least, until WoTC made an Outsider ressurection spell.



Normal spirits don't aid almost anyone...ask them. Anyway the "experience the world through them" is more from Dragon Age than the fluff of any class.

No, pretty sure that vestiges aid anyone. It's sort of written all over the Binding Section of the Tome of Magic.



Anyway, there are many things you can do with the same source of power. Think about the difference between two sorcerers, one specializing in necromancy and one in conjuration (healing).

True, although what I was trying to get at was perhaps you could achieve this class's purpose by making it into a vestige or two, while leaving the dead with their class levels.

Phosphate
2011-08-07, 11:47 AM
I am the DM. Also, I've had some players play Outsider PCs. They enjoyed it, mainly because if their character died, they died. Didn't have to worry about being completely powerless upon ressurrection. At least, until WoTC made an Outsider ressurection spell.

So basically, "Nothing is better than something"? Um...


No, pretty sure that vestiges aid anyone. It's sort of written all over the Binding Section of the Tome of Magic.

You misunderstood me. I said NORMAL spirits don't aid anyone, not vestiges.


True, although what I was trying to get at was perhaps you could achieve this class's purpose by making it into a vestige or two, while leaving the dead with their class levels.

True...

Pyromancer999
2011-08-07, 12:06 PM
So basically, "Nothing is better than something"? Um...

Basically, they had to roll up a new character, then. The spell for Outsider Ressurrection acts normally for ressurrection spells. What this class is doing is saying nothing is better than something.


You misunderstood me. I said NORMAL spirits don't aid anyone, not vestiges.

This is true, although in my campaigns, at least, there's not really anything to define a normal spirit by. Way too many types. I like Ghostwalk, which did provide a bit of normality though, so I can see what you mean.



True...

Yes. Although it is just a suggestion, I consider it to be a good way to go. Don't get me wrong, I like this class's abilities. It's just that they seem(at least to me) better suited as a vestige or two, and I know of no player that's willing to lose all their class levels in a class just for its abilities.

Phosphate
2011-08-07, 12:24 PM
Basically, they had to roll up a new character, then. The spell for Outsider Ressurrection acts normally for ressurrection spells. What this class is doing is saying nothing is better than something.

You can't force a resurrection. After someone dies, he can just refuse to come back. And then, reroll.


This is true, although in my campaigns, at least, there's not really anything to define a normal spirit by. Way too many types. I like Ghostwalk, which did provide a bit of normality though, so I can see what you mean.

This is the way I define normal: a normal spirit is a spirit that has a Charisma of 6 or higher (ghost requirement) and an Intellect of 3 or higher (sapient requirement), has a single perspective (can't be in two places at once), and can move freely, unrestricted to a certain place. Works wonders.


Yes. Although it is just a suggestion, I consider it to be a good way to go. Don't get me wrong, I like this class's abilities. It's just that they seem(at least to me) better suited as a vestige or two, and I know of no player that's willing to lose all their class levels in a class just for its abilities.

I...don't like the vestige system too much. And come one, this IS better than a binder.

eftexar
2011-08-07, 12:28 PM
I also think nature of the revenant's penalties are way too harsh. Can you imagine losing 20 levels instantly. It may simply be a matter of wording. Can you take levels in another class to replace them is what I am asking? I have played characters that are difficult to resurrect, but I refuse to play characters that can't be resurrected at all.

I think Pull should allow a save to negate to at least half the movement, especially since it is at will.

I like inhuman evasion.

Double Strike could be useless with a +0 bab. I never take something that grants a single extra attack if the attack granted has more than a -5 penalty.

I might split armor merge into two features if you add more stuff to the class, but as it is it seems fine.

Aura of Weakness does not specify an amount of speed reduction.* Not only that, but it lacks a save to negate the speed reduction.The lack of a save wouldn't be a problem if the aura was only 5 or 10ft, but being as it isn't... The other question is, is whether or not the speed reduction would continue if they left the area. May I suggest that the aura of weakness turn everything in its area into difficult terrain, instead of straight up reducing speed? It allows classes with the capability to bypass it, while hurting classes that wouldn't be crippled by it.
*sorry didn't see the -15

Permanant immunity for curse of death seems odd. I would say just grant immunity for 24 hours. You could allow a remove curse spell to function with an opposed check of some sort, but if you did that you might want to make the damage un-healable while the target is affected.

I don't think greater enlargement needs to be limited by having to take it twice to benefit from it. Increasing in size has just as many penalties as it does benefits.

As to your point about choosing disciplines nonsi, what do you mean, to allow the player to choose any stances or to restrict the player to a set list? I really don't see a problem with how it is set up.

And what is all the talk of the binder about? I don't think this class is that reminiscent of a binder. I think with a few mechanics tweaks the class could work with its current structure.

Pyromancer999
2011-08-07, 12:39 PM
I also think nature of the revenant's penalties are way too harsh. Can you imagine losing 20 levels instantly. It may simply be a matter of wording. Can you take levels in another class to replace them is what I am asking? I have played characters that are difficult to resurrect, but I refuse to play characters that can't be resurrected at all.

And what is all the talk of the binder about? I don't think this class is that reminiscent of a binder. I think with a few mechanics tweaks the class could work with its current structure.

See: Everything I've said in this thread.

Phosphate
2011-08-07, 01:16 PM
Can you take levels in another class to replace them is what I am asking?

Hmm...this gives me an idea. Will add soon.


I think Pull should allow a save to negate to at least half the movement, especially since it is at will.

This is meant to be Tier 3. That's all I have to say on this matter.


Double Strike could be useless with a +0 bab. I never take something that grants a single extra attack if the attack granted has more than a -5 penalty.

That's what True Strike is for. Also, it gives you the extra attack as a Free Action basically, so no need to get picky.



Aura of Weakness does not specify an amount of speed reduction. Not only that, but it lacks a save to negate the speed reduction. The lack of a save wouldn't be a problem if the aura was only 5 or 10ft, but being as it isn't... The other question is, is whether or not the speed reduction would continue if they left the area.

I did specify the speed reduction, look harder. Also, if unspecified, it means that the effects of an aura are restricted to that aura.


May I suggest that the aura of weakness turn everything in its area into difficult terrain, instead of straight up reducing speed? It allows classes with the capability to bypass it, while hurting classes that wouldn't be crippled by it.

I fail to see why I should do this.


Permanant immunity for curse of death seems odd. I would say just grant immunity for 24 hours. You could allow a remove curse spell to function with an opposed check of some sort, but if you did that you might want to make the damage un-healable while the target is affected.

I kind of like the idea of making abilities that are TRULY unavoidable, adds grittiness. Also great for RP based things like overthrowing a monarchy with little to no effort. And if I want to keep it unavoidable, immunity for 24 hours would make it rather broken.


I don't think greater enlargement needs to be limited by having to take it twice to benefit from it. Increasing in size has just as many penalties as it does benefits.

You sure? Ok, I will think about it. Maybe add a +4 to Strength?


As to your point about choosing disciplines nonsi, what do you mean, to allow the player to choose any stances or to restrict the player to a set list? I really don't see a problem with how it is set up.

He can learn stances from 5 disciplines of his choosing. He can learn only 6 stances from said disciplines.

~Corvus~
2011-08-07, 02:24 PM
Ability to die permanently on a d8 roll? :smallfrown:

This screams Binder to me. Interesting twist, but it seems like the idea was drawn from a game :smalltongue:

Interesting idea of a class, but rather potent. Why should I want to be another class?

Hmm... I'm looking at this class from a balance-idea and I see, right away, that it is a full-BAB class with a d12 hit die and all good saves. Damn, way to make a defensive tank. And add onto this an 8+int modifier skill list? Wait, hold on! That's too far. Go for 2+ int, or 4+ int if you really think you want high skill sets. Keep the skill options--this makes sense: you're drawing from a spirit that has unknown bits of knowledge, and hey, maybe make all skills available--but I strongly recommend taking down the skill points. Tanks are tanks, not skill monkeys.

The above mentioned abilities seem way powerful defensively IMO, but it seems like there is little in the method of dealing damage for this class, so I take it that the class is meant to be a tank? THat would make Pull and Mass Pull quite sensible. Is this what you intended?

Partial Initiator: Why in the world do you need to pick your 5 disciplines at level 1? I assume that the Shadow Spirit just gives them to you? Furthermore, what are the restrictions of the stances I may choose? Can I get Immortal Fortitude at level 1? If so, that's broken. As it stands, it screams ENCOURAGE METAGAMING to me :smalleek: I would suggest changing it. Some ideas: How about if the DM makes a secret roll to determine the 5 disciplines you can choose them from? Or how about picking them as you acquire the stances?

Double Strike: Seems VERY powerful at the level you get it, but substantially less powerful at higher levels. It's like a perpetual hasted attack that might hit.. If you really like this class ability, why not give it a -5 to hit and make the attack not stack with the extra one you can gain from haste? As it stands you get it at level 3, but then it gets a scaling decrease to hit per level. It seems a bit restrictive, but it seems cool in the idea.

Occult sense doesn't make sense to me as a DM. How can you have an "occult sense" but not get...an ability to detect demons and ghosts? Or perhaps a nice bonus to track them, like a supernatural version of scent? Instead, we get a combat ability? Granting AC sounds fine. But making weapons count as force with this class feature seems a bit much: It doesn't seem fair to lump it here, although it makes sense to give it to the class as a whole.
Still, seems fine balance-wise, and a cool idea at that :smallcool:
Also, does this class feature give you the ability to attack the spirit inside another Shadow Revenant?

Great Strength and Enlargement seem nice for its level. It's one level behind a wizard's ability to cast it on you. Perhaps make it take an XP cost to gain, thus being optional?. It's a Permanent Enlarge Person spell cast on you FOR FREE which is a bit much, I think. An XP cost of 500 should be trivial, and it's the price of Enlarge Person's permanency cost (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanency.htm). Furthermore, this one cannot be dispelled.

I call shenanigans on Aura of Weakness. Look to Efexar for critique. At the very least, you NEED to provide some reason for it not to give a save, otherwise any PC not a Shadow Revenant is going to call shenanigans. Let others have a will save to resist the effects! If not, then PLEASE give some justification for no save.

Curse of Death sounds like Death Note but without the restriction of knowing the person's name. As far as I can tell, all the Revenant need to do is wake up, stretch, and wish that the dude who beat him up as a child--but whom he hadn't given a thought about until last night's dream--was dead. And then move on to the next day, where he wishes that the stupid peasant who almost ran him over with a cart yesterday would die. And so on. Potential Ultimate assassin much? I know, you can only use it once ever on the same target, but it seems a little potent to be honest.

On to the special abilities... some of them seem fine, others seem as broken as this face --->:smallfurious:
Sealed Fate: True Strike as a SLA? Okay, not terribly broken, but for the uses it has (infinite) I think you should have a level requirement of 11+ or make it perhaps a use of once per encounter, or three times per day.

REVENANT RESISTANCE. I saw this and I did a double take. NO PREREQS?!?! So at level 4, this dude is immune to cold damage? Sure, I get it, you're taking 1.5 * fire damage, but that's just too powerful. Oh wait, I get it! With the ability to take ranks in Tumble, and with Flame's Blessing stance, it HARDLY matters that you're taking more damage to fire, since you can negate it half the time. At level 7, picking up sonic immunity, although not as powerful, is still crazy: sonic doesn't have an opposing elemental type. How about giving them a scaling resistance? Say DR to [type] equal to their Shadow Revenant class level?


Stance mastery: At level 11, you can pick up the capstone ability of a Warblade. As pertaining to the class itself, this is...pretty powerful. Be in Flame's Blessing stance at all times, and with your near-immunity to fire and immunity to sonic and cold damage, you can do more awesome things. The OMG BROKEN stuff you can do with this ability is with other classes.
Class out, take Crusader the rest of your levels, and rock house as the most badass Battlefield control tank ever. As such, you can take several amazing stances from ToB at once. Think: at level 12, you wield a spiked chain and, without any other feats, can be in both Thicket of Blades stance and Iron Guard's Glare at the same time. Pick up Robilard's Gambit and...Uhhh...

Phosphate
2011-08-07, 02:51 PM
Ability to die permanently on a d8 roll?

Um, no. It wasnt like that before, and now I changed it to something else anyway.


This screams Binder to me. Interesting twist, but it seems like the idea was drawn from a game :smalltongue:

As I said, Dragon Age.


Interesting idea of a class, but rather potent. Why should I want to be another class?

1. Because Warblade.
2. Because casters
3. Because you're not Evil. That is a rather hurtful requirement.



Hmm... I'm looking at this class from a balance-idea and I see, right away, that it is a full-BAB class with a d12 hit die and all good saves. Damn, way to make a defensive tank. And add onto this an 8+int modifier skill list? Wait, hold on! That's too far. Go for 2+ int, or 4+ int if you really think you want high skill sets. Keep the skill options--this makes sense: you're drawing from a spirit that has unknown bits of knowledge, and hey, maybe make all skills available--but I strongly recommend taking down the skill points. Tanks are tanks, not skill monkeys.

You're a tank to the point you die. After you die...you either lose everything or a lot of XP. Anyway, tank is the worst role in D&D.


The above mentioned abilities seem way powerful defensively IMO, but it seems like there is little in the method of dealing damage for this class, so I take it that the class is meant to be a tank? THat would make Pull and Mass Pull quite sensible. Is this what you intended?

Yup.


Partial Initiator: Why in the world do you need to pick your 5 disciplines at level 1? I assume that the Shadow Spirit just gives them to you?

I didn't think about that, but it's a great idea. Thank you!


Furthermore, what are the restrictions of the stances I may choose? Can I get Immortal Fortitude at level 1? If so, that's broken. As it stands, it screams ENCOURAGE METAGAMING to me :smalleek: I would suggest changing it.

You can only learn the stances for which you meet prerequisites.


Double Strike: Seems VERY powerful at the level you get it, but substantially less powerful at higher levels. It's like a perpetual hasted attack that might hit.. If you really like this class ability, why not give it a -5 to hit and make the attack not stack with the extra one you can gain from haste? As it stands you get it at level 3, but then it gets a scaling decrease to hit per level. It seems a bit restrictive, but it seems cool in the idea.

It would be too good as a -5, especially considering the rest of the class. At the level you get it, the Revenant does not have enough tools to be strong defensively, so it needs offense.


Occult sense doesn't make sense to me as a DM. How can you have an "occult sense" but not get...an ability to detect demons and ghosts? Or perhaps a nice bonus to track them, like a supernatural version of scent? Instead, we get a combat ability? Granting AC sounds fine. But making weapons count as force with this class feature seems a bit much: It doesn't seem fair to lump it here, although it makes sense to give it to the class as a whole.
Still, seems fine balance-wise, and a cool idea at that :smallcool:

The thing is, spirits know how spirits fight. Also the force weapon thing derives from, firstly, the power of the Revenant's hosted spirit, secondly, from the fact that I HATE incorporeals. The idea of this class is that the spirit hosted by a Revenant affects his body but not his mind, so giving him actual senses, like what you describe here, would contradict that. Maybe I should just rename this ability.


Also, does this class feature give you the ability to attack the spirit inside another Shadow Revenant?

I love the way you think.


Great Strength and Enlargement seem nice for its level. It's one level behind a wizard's ability to cast it on you. Perhaps make it take an XP cost to gain, thus being optional?. It's a Permanent Enlarge Person spell cast on you FOR FREE which is a bit much, I think. An XP cost of 500 should be trivial, and it's the price of Enlarge Person's permanency cost (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanency.htm). Furthermore, this one cannot be dispelled.

The ON YOURSELF is pretty much the reason. If you think it is too good, I can move it a couple levels later, but I don't really think a payment of XP is required.


I call shenanigans on Aura of Weakness. Look to Efexar for critique. At the very least, you NEED to provide some reason for it not to give a save, otherwise any PC not a Shadow Revenant is going to call shenanigans. Let others have a will save to resist the effects! If not, then PLEASE give some justification for no save.

It's too weak to need a save, anyway, not the only ability in the world not to have a save. Anyway, if I gave it one, it would be a Fortitude Save, cause...weakness.


Curse of Death sounds like Death Note but without the restriction of knowing the person's name. As far as I can tell, all the Revenant need to do is wake up, stretch, and wish that the dude who beat him up as a child--but whom he hadn't given a thought about until last night's dream--was dead. And then move on to the next day, where he wishes that the stupid peasant who almost ran him over with a cart yesterday would die. And so on. Potential Ultimate assassin much? I know, you can only use it once ever on the same target, but it seems a little potent to be honest.

Muahaha.


Sealed Fate: True Strike as a SLA? Okay, not terribly broken, but for the uses it has (infinite) I think you should have a level requirement of 11+ or make it perhaps a use of once per encounter, or three times per day.

Nah, this class needs it. Anyway, it's still some MAD there, because a Revenant normally doesn't need Int at all.


REVENANT RESISTANCE. I saw this and I did a double take. NO PREREQS?!?! So at level 4, this dude is immune to cold damage? Sure, I get it, you're taking 1.5 * fire damage, but that's just too powerful. Oh wait, I get it! With the ability to take ranks in Tumble, and with Flame's Blessing stance, it HARDLY matters that you're taking more damage to fire, since you can negate it half the time. At level 7, picking up sonic immunity, although not as powerful, is still crazy: sonic doesn't have an opposing elemental type. How about giving them a scaling resistance? Say DR to [type] equal to their Shadow Revenant class level?

Ok, maybe you are right here. Will change.


Stance mastery: At level 11, you can pick up the capstone ability of a Warblade. As pertaining to the class itself, this is...pretty powerful. Be in Flame's Blessing stance at all times, and with your near-immunity to fire and immunity to sonic and cold damage, you can do more awesome things. The OMG BROKEN stuff you can do with this ability is with other classes.
Class out, take Crusader the rest of your levels, and rock house as the most badass Battlefield control tank ever. As such, you can take several amazing stances from ToB at once. Think: at level 12, you wield a spiked chain and, without any other feats, can be in both Thicket of Blades stance and Iron Guard's Glare at the same time. Pick up Robilard's Gambit and...Uhhh...

I have a way to fix this. And...done.

~Corvus~
2011-08-07, 05:25 PM
1. Because Warblade.
2. Because casters
3. Because you're not Evil. That is a rather hurtful requirement.

It seems this would make a much better villain class than a PC class for a normal setting.:smallsmile: Then, I must ask you, what if you just did a bunch of things to change your alignment after taking this class? Does the spirit decide to leave you? Or is becoming a revenant so unspeakably evil that it forever mars your ability to do good? I'm thinking about this in terms of, say, barbarians that become lawful or Paladins that go out of their restriction zone, or Ur-priests that no longer think they want to be evil.



You're a tank to the point you die. After you die...you either lose everything or a lot of XP. Anyway, tank is the worst role in D&D.

Having the worst role as a class hardly seems like justification to give the class 8+ int skillpoints.




You can only learn the stances for which you meet prerequisites.

Probably good to mention that, just in case. Do they need to be level 1 stances? Otherwise it might be fun for dipping in 2 levels of this class. Plus, 3 good saves and full BaB... there seems to be no great reason NOT to dip into this class, except that one has to be evil.



It would be too good as a -5, especially considering the rest of the class. At the level you get it, the Revenant does not have enough tools to be strong defensively, so it needs offense.

Yes, Yes! Think: a single extra attack at level 3 is going to get, at a -5 to hit, a -2 to attack. It's not TERRIBLE at level 3, but later on, it scales just fine. It's a great idea.



The thing is, spirits know how spirits fight. Also the force weapon thing derives from, firstly, the power of the Revenant's hosted spirit, secondly, from the fact that I HATE incorporeals. The idea of this class is that the spirit hosted by a Revenant affects his body but not his mind, so giving him actual senses, like what you describe here, would contradict that. Maybe I should just rename this ability.

Interesting idea! Now that I can see your ideas, they seem a bit more justifiable. Just because you hate the fact that incorporeals are difficult to hit doesn't necessitate a power from the class. Look up the DMG pages 224 - 225 and you'll find the Ghost Touch enchantment (go look it up!), which is a +1 enhancement bonus to a weapon. Perhaps make this power grant any weapon you wield into a Ghost Touch weapon by virtue of your spirit. If you want to increase that power, look up Ethereal Reaver (Magic item Compendium pg 34).

In any case, you should definitely work this description you gave above into the class mechanics or the description because it's awesome stuff.



The ON YOURSELF is pretty much the reason. If you think it is too good, I can move it a couple levels later, but I don't really think a payment of XP is required.

It's actually not too powerful for that level: it's PERFECT for the level. It's just too powerful without an additional cost. Delayed gratification for it shouldn't matter. 500 XP at level 9 is very small, and could be a small side-quest.



It's too weak to need a save, anyway, not the only ability in the world not to have a save. Anyway, if I gave it one, it would be a Fortitude Save, cause...weakness.

Even a Hexblade's Curse, any negative aura, etc. requires a save. DEFINITELY for its range of effect.




Nah, this class needs it. Anyway, it's still some MAD there, because a Revenant normally doesn't need Int at all.

This class needs more DAMAGE, not more to HIT. Perhaps look at Divine Sacrifice (CDiv 163): you sacrifice hit points for a damage bonus. Since you have so much freaking HP, who cares?




I have a way to fix this. And...done.
Brilliant fix! I had to read if a few times, but it looks workable!

Lord_Gareth
2011-08-07, 07:44 PM
Okay, Phosphate, seriously, I say the following to help you: put down your homebrewing notes and do not pick them back up until you have read this article, right here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150609).

All of your classes have the same general design trend, which is covered by this quote as being a bad idea:


Sidenote: A Bit About Balance

Before we delve into the different sub-systems, we must discuss the concept of balance.

Balance is possibly the single hardest element of homebrew to explain, but without it your creation is just a good idea floating in a sea of poor design. Developing a good eye for balance is really something you have to practice: listen to critique from more experienced designers, test your creations, get a lot of stuff out there, and take criticism in stride (and learn from it). You’ll find you begin to figure out when something is balanced and when something isn’t, although it may take a while.

Still, some things bear mentioning. The end goal of balancing is the following: A player should view your creation as a choice of equal potential to the other choices available within the same sub-system and at the same level. This means you should aim (in general) to balance the class against your ordinary player playing with a solid but not overpowered class, not against something that a devoted powergamer would whip up using a Wizard and some rules exploits. Balancing against the former makes your class a choice among other choices: balancing against the latter means that players will be hard pressed to find any advantage to not taking your class.

The following are common balance mistakes that I often see, and would like to address.

But the Number Go Up: Nine times out of ten, a mere upwards numerical progression makes for an underwhelming creation. It's for this reason that feats like Weapon Focus are often overlooked: a +1 bonus rarely makes the cut. Even things like Improved Disarm at least add a kicker to the bonus (in this case, you can't be disarmed on a failed attempt). If you find your creation boils down to a few little increases on already existing abilities, but doesn't really add anything new or unique (a staff-master class that adds to AC, attack rolls, reach, and damage, for instance, but doesn't really learn any interesting techniques or develop unique class features), you're selling yourself short. Think up some creative ways to explore your topic: most players would rather have a fun new ability or an interesting variation on an existing one than a mere +2 damage bonus.

Crippling Negatives: If your creation has a tremendous amount of power, you balance it by making it available at a higher level, not by adding huge penalties to other aspects of the creation. This technique is the epitome of poor design: it grants incredible power to those willing to eat large penalties in areas which might not matter to them, while making the creation incredibly unappealing to anyone not wanting to min-max (perfect one area of a character’s mechanical strengths at the expense of others) to this extent. Rather than do this, either raise the level at which the choice becomes available, or lower the overall power of the creation.

It's So Hard to Do: If a combo takes an exact set of circumstances, that doesn't mean it's balanced. The Assassin's (Dungeon Master's Guide) Death Attack is a bit weak, but that's because it takes 3 rounds of study to make work. If it was on every sneak attack, that would be to strong. In this case, losing actions is what balances it out. If it relied on getting a sneak attack on a flat-footed target in the dark, for example, you can be sure that players will find all the ways possible to make that happen at least 50% of the time. Thus, don't think that your incredible ability is balanced because the circumstances are specific: balance the ability for the level, and add circumstances only if they fit.

One-Trick Pony: Being insanely good at one thing but incompetent at others is not balanced. Don’t make a creation that is the only possible choice for a specialist in that area: a prestige class devoted to archery should make a character a better archer, but shouldn’t make him or her so much better that it becomes the only choice. Having a signature trick is fine. Hell, you should even become pretty damn good at it. However, making that single trick into an insanely powerful tool with the justification that “it’s the only thing you can do” is not good design. After all, if your full attack routine with a bow can kill 95% of foes in the first round of combat, why would you ever want anything else?

Playing Hard to Get: So your creation is really rare, has heavy prerequisites, or is just hard to qualify for. Fine. But don't use that as an excuse to dish out tremendous abilities. You can use this sparingly (difficult classes are often stronger), but don't rely on it to much. A little bit of power here and there if fine, but it's not a green-light to toss out excess power. Remember to balance based on level, as well as on requirements. Balancing by level should always take precedence.

There are more, obviously, but an full discussion on balance in D&D 3.5 would take more time than I care to spend. Feel free to contact me with any questions, or suggestions of things to add to this portion of the article.

The part I bolded is especially relevant, and needs to be addressed in your work in a very significant way. That ressurrection penalty needs to go away. A bunch of your abilities (like the death one and the stance mastery) need to be toned down or axed. The class needs some native variety in what it does aside from switch stances or full attack. May I suggest you haunt the 3.5 boards and ask some questions to get a feel for RGE (Real Game Environment) balance levels, maybe ask some advice from experienced 'brewers like Djinn or Kellus?

You've got concepts that are good and some that are bad, but your mechanics seriously need tightening up, man. Give it a shot, hey?

Pyromancer999
2011-08-07, 08:18 PM
Okay, Phosphate, seriously, I say the following to help you: put down your homebrewing notes and do not pick them back up until you have read this article, right here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150609).

All of your classes have the same general design trend, which is covered by this quote as being a bad idea:



The part I bolded is especially relevant, and needs to be addressed in your work in a very significant way. That ressurrection penalty needs to go away. A bunch of your abilities (like the death one and the stance mastery) need to be toned down or axed. The class needs some native variety in what it does aside from switch stances or full attack. May I suggest you haunt the 3.5 boards and ask some questions to get a feel for RGE (Real Game Environment) balance levels, maybe ask some advice from experienced 'brewers like Djinn or Kellus?

You've got concepts that are good and some that are bad, but your mechanics seriously need tightening up, man. Give it a shot, hey?

The Lord of the Harrowed knows much of this matter and has the right idea. Do as he says, and this class should improve by quite a bit.

Phosphate
2011-08-08, 01:10 AM
It seems this would make a much better villain class than a PC class for a normal setting.:smallsmile: Then, I must ask you, what if you just did a bunch of things to change your alignment after taking this class? Does the spirit decide to leave you? Or is becoming a revenant so unspeakably evil that it forever mars your ability to do good? I'm thinking about this in terms of, say, barbarians that become lawful or Paladins that go out of their restriction zone, or Ur-priests that no longer think they want to be evil.

If you are no longer evil, you no longer progress in this class. That's how most classes with requirements work...



Having the worst role as a class hardly seems like justification to give the class 8+ int skillpoints.

Well, the spirit helps you with the being skilled part.


Probably good to mention that, just in case. Do they need to be level 1 stances? Otherwise it might be fun for dipping in 2 levels of this class. Plus, 3 good saves and full BaB... there seems to be no great reason NOT to dip into this class, except that one has to be evil.

It is an anti-dipping strategy, yes. Also, this class imposes a VERY heavy penalty if you're not allowed to be Evil at all - the levels in warlock.


Yes, Yes! Think: a single extra attack at level 3 is going to get, at a -5 to hit, a -2 to attack. It's not TERRIBLE at level 3, but later on, it scales just fine. It's a great idea.

If it were an ability that could influence only the number of strikes in a full attack, I would agree. But it's not.


Interesting idea! Now that I can see your ideas, they seem a bit more justifiable. Just because you hate the fact that incorporeals are difficult to hit doesn't necessitate a power from the class. Look up the DMG pages 224 - 225 and you'll find the Ghost Touch enchantment (go look it up!), which is a +1 enhancement bonus to a weapon. Perhaps make this power grant any weapon you wield into a Ghost Touch weapon by virtue of your spirit. If you want to increase that power, look up Ethereal Reaver (Magic item Compendium pg 34).

In any case, you should definitely work this description you gave above into the class mechanics or the description because it's awesome stuff.

Will do.


It's actually not too powerful for that level: it's PERFECT for the level. It's just too powerful without an additional cost. Delayed gratification for it shouldn't matter. 500 XP at level 9 is very small, and could be a small side-quest.

Hmm...ok, if you think it's better, I'll add.


Even a Hexblade's Curse, any negative aura, etc. requires a save. DEFINITELY for its range of effect.

K, fine...but I'm making the effect stronger.


This class needs more DAMAGE, not more to HIT. Perhaps look at Divine Sacrifice (CDiv 163): you sacrifice hit points for a damage bonus. Since you have so much freaking HP, who cares?

That's the issue. You have so much hp, letting you draw abilities from hp (which is a meaningless loss for you) would be unfair. Also, it's against the fluff - the point of this class is that the spirit is helping you be as sturdy as possible, so that you don't die, so that the spirit gets to stay in you for as long as possible.

Phosphate
2011-08-08, 01:31 AM
Okay, Phosphate, seriously, I say the following to help you: put down your homebrewing notes and do not pick them back up until you have read.

That was informative and a great read, thank you. I...don't think I'm as horrible as you say I am at this, though.



The part I bolded is especially relevant, and needs to be addressed in your work in a very significant way. That ressurrection penalty needs to go away.

It's not exactly "min maxing, taking a disadvantage in an area that you don't care about". You're a tank, you obviously care about dying.



A bunch of your abilities (like the death one and the stance mastery) need to be toned down or axed. The class needs some native variety in what it does aside from switch stances or full attack.

Stance mastery is required as this class has no maneuvers, so it ought to have an edge in the use of stances. Also, the death one is a staple of the class - and no, you cannot use it effectively in battle. It's more for...RPing purposes, as I have explained. As for the variety...yeah, I may add some more abilities concerning that, but as it stands, you can't really say it does only one thing over and over again.


You've got concepts that are good and some that are bad, but your mechanics seriously need tightening up, man. Give it a shot, hey?

Hm, ok.

Kellus
2011-08-08, 01:39 AM
So yeah, I like the idea and flavour behind this class, but there are a few things that I'm not too fond of.

Specifically, the alignment restriction and the whole "1/8 chance of becoming a commoner when you die" are awful, awful, awful, awful ideas. Being evil is not a limiting factor, because there are characters who are evil. Just because some people can't get into the class doesn't mean you don't have to balance it for the people that do.

The dying idea is bad because people are going to die. If they decide to roll up a new character, the ability was not a balancing mechanic because they have a new character. If they roll 7/8 the ability was not a balancing mechanic because they suffer no penalty. If they roll 1/8 the ability was not a balancing mechanic because they drop out of the game. At no point ever is there a good result from this mechanic. It is a bad idea and should go away.

Phosphate
2011-08-08, 01:48 AM
Waaaah, whatever, changed the dying mechanic. But the alignment thing is a sizable limitation.

Anyway, this class pays its incredible defense by having mediocre offense. So...I don't see why it's overpowered. At least, moreso than all other Tier 3 classes.

Circle of Life
2011-08-08, 01:57 AM
But the alignment thing is a sizable limitation.

No, it isn't. Either the class is of no use to people who don't meet the requirement, or of full use to people that are. It is in no way a limitation except to say "you can't play this class".

Also, this class is "broken" in a general sense, as opposed to meaning that it's simply overpowered. Most of the features don't make sense or take liberties for no real reason. Partial Initiator, for instance. Okay, so you start the game with IL 5... but can't select anything of 3rd level anyway, since they all require a maneuver known. So... why the IL boost? Why the strange restriction?

Don't take the criticism as us saying that you need to stop trying, as pretty much the only way to get better at homebrewing is to constantly evaluate and re-evaluate mechanics used and why they work or don't work. What you should do though is look at classes that have similar concepts and compare the abilities - why are certain classes considered well made and balanced, while yours are called down as broken?

A bit of examination will go a long way, as opposed to shrugging things off as people just not getting it (not that you necessarily are doing this, mind).