[3.5] Utterly destroyed vampire's loot

[koscum]

So, in today's looooooong session (one of our rounds took 45+ minutes), we killed 3 Vampires who were chasing us for quite some time now. One of them couldn't reach his (or any other) coffin (we barely managed to get the coffin to the 2nd one) within 2 hours and was subsequently utterly destroyed. The problem is the following line from Gaseous Form: "The subject and all its gear become insubstantial, misty, and translucent.". Does this mean that all of his items (+5 Mithral Full Plate and some minor -but pricey- stuff) are destroyed as well (please say no :puppyeyes:)?

[Talentless]

So, in today's looooooong session (one of our rounds took 45+ minutes), we killed 3 Vampires who were chasing us for quite some time now. One of them couldn't reach his (or any other) coffin (we barely managed to get the coffin to the 2nd one) within 2 hours and was subsequently utterly destroyed. The problem is the following line from Gaseous Form: "The subject and all its gear become insubstantial, misty, and translucent.". Does this mean that all of his items (+5 Mithral Full Plate and some minor -but pricey- stuff) are destroyed as well (please say no :puppyeyes:)?

Sorry, but yes, his gear goes bye bye.

[koscum]

Sorry, but yes, his gear goes bye bye.
:smallfrown: Goodbye 100,000+ gp.


On the plus side, it's a pretty good way of destroying artefacts.

[Psyren]

Would it really though? The sunlight exposure, by RAW, destroys the vampire and nothing else. And since its gaseous form ability is "as the spell," it seems to me that all you'd need to do is wait for the duration to expire (12 minutes) and the gear will appear.

(Assuming the ability doesn't just end right when it dies.)

[Marnath]

Would it really though? The sunlight exposure, by RAW, destroys the vampire and nothing else. And since its gaseous form ability is "as the spell," it seems to me that all you'd need to do is wait for the duration to expire (12 minutes) and the gear will appear.

(Assuming the ability doesn't just end right when it dies.)

Vampire's gaseous form ability doesn't have a duration.:smalltongue:

[vampire2948]

Guess it depends how you decide to fluff the ability.

Does the vampire, upon failing to reach his coffin, just disappear and disperse into the wind? Or does he reform in vampire form, fall to his knees, and scream a bit while his body turns to dust, leaving sparkly loot behind?

[Haldir]

The RAW clearly states his gear is lost. The vampire must have to actively un-vaporize his gear along with himself or something.....

[Hiro Protagonest]

On the plus side, it's a pretty good way of destroying artefacts.

I'm pretty sure that if an artifact is completely vaporized but not destroyed in The One True WayTM it appears, fully intact, at some place in the world.

[EternalMelon]

I'm pretty sure that if an artifact is completely vaporized but not destroyed in The One True WayTM it appears, fully intact, at some place in the world.

Preferably near a hobbit Halfling.

[Silva Stormrage]

Ya if your DM wants to refluff it as the vampire "losing his powers" and he fails to maintain gaseous form you could keep the gear. Otherwise it looks like you just lost a set of full plate :smallfrown:.

[Acanous]

Maybe the Vampire's loot appears, somewhere in the world :p

It's effectively gone, though. Check around for loot not on it's person, vampires have investments, retainers. They don't haul ALL the wealth on themselves.

[Psyren]

Vampire's gaseous form ability doesn't have a duration.:smalltongue:

It says it can remain gaseous indefinitely. I read this as - it can choose to keep the ability going without an action, which it can't do if it's dead.


The RAW clearly states his gear is lost.

Source?

The entry I'm reading says:


Exposing any vampire to direct sunlight disorients it: It can take only a single move action or attack action and is destroyed utterly in the next round if it cannot escape.

It says nothing about the vampire's equipment, only the vampire.

[Taelas]

If you go strictly by RAW, the gear is not destroyed, but it remains in gaseous form indefinitely -- but, as it is such due to a supernatural effect, it can be dispelled. The vampire is 'utterly destroyed'. The entry states nothing regarding the vampire's equipment.

[Psyren]

Supernatural abilities actually can't be dispelled, which is a thorny problem.

But I would rule that without the vampire's impetus, the default rules for its gaseous form ability would apply - caster level 6th * 2 min./level = 12 minutes of gaseousness before the ability ends.

[Taelas]

Huh. I never noticed that. Very well, in that case, the gear is pretty much lost.

[Drachasor]

Eh, I'd say when the Vampire gets destroyed his gaseous form ends...since he's DEAD there's nothing to maintain it. Redeaded Vampires have no supernatural abilities.

Honestly, I don't think RAW really says either way -- heck, it's a bit vague on what actions you can take while dead even. As a GM though, I'd rule they get the loot.

[LaughingRogue]

Eh, I'd say when the Vampire gets destroyed his gaseous form ends...since he's DEAD there's nothing to maintain it. Redeaded Vampires have no supernatural abilities.

Honestly, I don't think RAW really says either way -- heck, it's a bit vague on what actions you can take while dead even. As a GM though, I'd rule they get the loot.

Also how I would rule it...

[Taelas]

It is how I would rule it as well, but I do not believe it would be RAW. I am unaware of any rules stating that Supernatural effects end when the creature using it dies.

[LaughingRogue]

It is how I would rule it as well, but I do not believe it would be RAW. I am unaware of any rules stating that Supernatural effects end when the creature using it dies.

Right but there's also the idea that at a certain point, a group should have X amount of gold and as DM you should generally have them geared with around that --- and that's alot of gold to just say disappears ... It could also screw over the party if you're not a fan of rewriting future encounters if your group is not properly geared for it.

[Drachasor]

It is how I would rule it as well, but I do not believe it would be RAW. I am unaware of any rules stating that Supernatural effects end when the creature using it dies.

There are no rules saying a player's character can't get up and start taking actions again after they die either.

[Taelas]

Yes, there is. :smallsigh: For one thing, there's the definition of 'dead' in the dictionary. Secondly, there's the definition of 'dead' in the Player's Handbook, which states that a dead character's soul has left their body and departed for the Outer Planes.

[Ksheep]

There are no rules saying a player's character can't get up and start taking actions again after they die either.

Plus the fact that while dead, you are at -10 HP. As such, your non-lethal exceeds your total, and you are unconscious and follow all rules of unconsciousness.

[Drachasor]

Plus the fact that while dead, you are at -10 HP. As such, your non-lethal exceeds your total, and you are unconscious and follow all rules of unconsciousness.

"The character’s hit points are reduced to -10, his Constitution drops to 0, or he is killed outright by a spell or effect. The character’s soul leaves his body. Dead characters cannot benefit from normal or magical healing, but they can be restored to life via magic. A dead body decays normally unless magically preserved, but magic that restores a dead character to life also restores the body either to full health or to its condition at the time of death (depending on the spell or device). Either way, resurrected characters need not worry about rigor mortis, decomposition, and other conditions that affect dead bodies. "

It doesn't say health is at -10, but it does say that's one of the possible ways to BE dead. Lack of a soul doesn't mean anything in game terms. In fact there's nothing there that says you can't take actions WITHIN the game rules. Sure, I know you can "yeah, but the guy is dead, by definition that means he can't do anything!" Eh, really? In a HIGH Fantasy world where the very fabric of reality can be unwoven by a player Wizard? Doesn't seem inherently a cut and dried matter to me.

I agree this is absurd, but that's my point. There are elements of the rules where we are supposed to use our judgment and common sense.

Allowing a properly dead vampire to continue to use an activated Supernatural ability strikes me as the same sort of thing as saying a dead player can get up and do stuff. Yeah, the rules don't explicitly say that's not allowed, but it is absurd.

Oh, and unconscious:
"Knocked out and helpless. Unconsciousness can result from having current hit points between -1 and -9, or from nonlethal damage in excess of current hit points. "

"Dead" characters in D&D are NOT unconscious by the rules.

[Dimers]

If Since the players are interested in recovering said phat lewts, how about they have to go on a subquest to find a ritual or spell to return the gear to fully solid form? And it'll just stay in place, misty and untouchable, until they do. Um, or until someone casts gust of wind on it, so you'd better hurry up.

[Drachasor]

Well, if the GM is being a jerk, anti-magic shell will do the trick.

[NNescio]

If Since the players are interested in recovering said phat lewts, how about they have to go on a subquest to find a ritual or spell to return the gear to fully solid form? And it'll just stay in place, misty and untouchable, until they do. Um, or until someone casts gust of wind on it, so you'd better hurry up.

Well you could AMF it, but the gear would be mostly useless inside an AMF.

On a related note, what happens to a Dominated creature when the vampire dies? Is he technically still dominated ('though the vampire cannot exercise control over him)?

[Psyren]

It is how I would rule it as well, but I do not believe it would be RAW. I am unaware of any rules stating that Supernatural effects end when the creature using it dies.

It's not that "it wouldn't be RAW." There IS no RAW for this situation.

The only reason this issue is muddy to begin with is due to a single line: "but it can remain gaseous indefinitely." Without that, the rules for the gaseous form spell would be beyond contest.

But I still don't think that line can apply here. The wording indicates the vampire has to choose to remain gaseous - something it can't do if it no longer exists at all.


There are no rules saying a player's character can't get up and start taking actions again after they die either.

What's funny is that there ARE actual rules that prevent this, just in a hilariously roundabout way. Simply take this rule:


In case it matters, a dead character, no matter how she died, has -10 hit points.

And combine with this one:


When your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you’re staggered, and when it exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious. It doesn’t matter whether the nonlethal damage equals or exceeds your current hit points because the nonlethal damage has gone up or because your current hit points have gone down.

So when dead, you have 0 (or more) nonlethal damage, and exactly -10 HP. You're thus unconscious and can take no actions.

[Drachasor]

Well you could AMF it, but the gear would be mostly useless inside an AMF.

On a related note, what happens to a Dominated creature when the vampire dies? Is he technically still dominated ('though the vampire cannot exercise control over him)?

The body has gaseous form, not the equipment. AMF, remove equipment, leave.

Edit: Good point, Psyren. Nonetheless, I stand by my position that what happens to the gaseous form is that it should go away since the supernatural ability doesn't exist on the dead body. I concede the rules don't say either way though.

[Haldir]

As DM I'd rule that the supernatural effect likely required at least a some form of conscious effort from the vampire, when he dies, that conscious effort is done, and the Supernatural Ability promptly ends with his death, returning the vaunted lewts to a useable state.

[Psyren]

Edit: Good point, Psyren. Nonetheless, I stand by my position that what happens to the gaseous form is that it should go away since the supernatural ability doesn't exist on the dead body.

That's a position I share with you - we agree.

I think my citation covers your other argument though - all dead characters are unconscious by RAW.

[Drachasor]

As DM I'd rule that the supernatural effect likely required at least a some form of conscious effort from the vampire, when he dies, that conscious effort is done, and the Supernatural Ability promptly ends with his death, returning the vaunted lewts to a useable state.

No, it is clearly a manifestation of the Vampire's supernatural humors (in particular, the humor of air -- blood). The balance between the humors, however, would be irrevocably destroyed by death, and so its gaseous form would naturally dissipate.

(OP, I suggest you use this argument with your GM!)

Edit: Psyren, I was agreeing with your point regarding the dead. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

[OldFart]

I think there's a simpler argument. An undead vampire can exist in several forms, including (monstrous) humanoid, bat, dire bat, wolf, dire wolf, and gaseous form. A destroyed vampire is a corpse, or possibly a pile of dust - from either of which one would normally be able to loot equipment.

[Drachasor]

Hmph, I'd expect an Old Fart to be able to appreciate the Classics.

[homeosapiens]

I recently looted a vampire just from taking him to 0 hp. It was DM's decision and was also directed as a punishment for the player playing vampire. So you are vampire, and by that you are well... a lot lower level than this good cleric. You dominate the inn's owner. He uses maximized cure serious wounds. You change into gaseuos form. Cleric loots :)

Funny thing - he had no items bought but gold. I did spend most of it. Probably, he is not going to be very happy :)

Edit: Also - the reason for becoming a vampire at 9 ecl eludes me. Reason to become vampire in character creation eludes me at all. Get vapirised later man!

[Averis Vol]

Wait, if the vampire ability says it acts as the spell, what happens to your active spells when you die? Isn't there something that says spells are dismissed when you die?

[lsfreak]

Wait, if the vampire ability says it acts as the spell, what happens to your active spells when you die? Isn't there something that says spells are dismissed when you die?

Iirc, nothing happens. Except maybe spells where you are no longer a valid target (a corpse being an object) expire, but from what I vaguely remember from arguments, even that's based on RAMS and not RAW.

[TuggyNE]

Wait, if the vampire ability says it acts as the spell, what happens to your active spells when you die? Isn't there something that says spells are dismissed when you die?

Nope! Spells (and probably SLAs) a summon casts are dispelled when the summon is, but there are no other provisions for "the caster is no longer around, what do" situations.