Bladesinger

[the quinn]

I just picked up the Neverwinter campaign setting and found the new class very interesting. I seems a lot like the old classes found in 3.5, and I actually like it a lot.
Here basic outline:
They gain feats every even level
They don't have encounter powers and use wizard encounters as dailies.
Their at wills are triggered by hitting with basic attacks
They gain bonus abilities every level they don't gain more spells

I would like to see some classes get a revamp similar to this, however it might be a sign of 4.5. Does anyone else feel the same way?

[Mando Knight]

They gain feats every even level
Doesn't everyone in 4E?

They don't have encounter powers and use wizard encounters as dailies.
This is new. Or, the second part is. The first bit is Essentials-type stuff.

Their at wills are triggered by hitting with basic attacks
They gain bonus abilities every level they don't gain more spells

I would like to see some classes get a revamp similar to this, however it might be a sign of 4.5. Does anyone else feel the same way?
This is all fairly standard Essentials-era fare. Check Heroes of Fallen Lands and Forgotten Kingdoms for more. (Also Heroes of Shadow, but its stuff is all over the map)

[Drachasor]

I haven't seen it, but that sounds kind of boring to play. Their "dailies" sound crappy, they don't have encounters, and they are stuck doing a basic attack every round they don't use a utility or daily*....seems like you don't get a lot of options.

*Yeah, they might get options tacked on after they hit or whatever, but that is still pretty limiting, imho.

[Fox Box Socks]

Mechanically, Essentials is there to support people who want "simpler" characters. Until Heroes of the Fallen Lands, playing a character who just swung their sword every round without any fancy maneuvers simply wasn't possible.

Bladesinger is an Essentials build, which means that they're focused on basic attacks. Also, their Dailies are balanced (...kind of) by the fact that they recharge every milestone rather than every extended rest (or so I've heard), meaning that you can use them every two encounters, making them somewhere between Encounters and Dailies in functionality.

If it's not for you, then it's not for you, but from what I've seen, they are frighteningly effective at what they do.

[flumphy]

That's the only thing that was holding be back from buying 4e...the lack of a simple, Essentials-style class based on INT. I get to upgrade. Yay!

[Drachasor]

Mechanically, Essentials is there to support people who want "simpler" characters. Until Heroes of the Fallen Lands, playing a character who just swung their sword every round without any fancy maneuvers simply wasn't possible.

Bladesinger is an Essentials build, which means that they're focused on basic attacks. Also, their Dailies are balanced (...kind of) by the fact that they recharge every milestone rather than every extended rest (or so I've heard), meaning that you can use them every two encounters, making them somewhere between Encounters and Dailies in functionality.

If it's not for you, then it's not for you, but from what I've seen, they are frighteningly effective at what they do.

Bah, such simplicity is my Eternal Enemy!

[Kurald Galain]

I would like to see some classes get a revamp similar to this,
They already did.

The fighter, rogue, paladin, warlock, and ranger have all gotten a revamp that relies mostly on making melee basic attacks every single round. The same is planned for the bard and barbarian. The new cleric and druid make melee attacks, but not necessarily basic ones. Most of these lack the choice of encounter powers, and the fighter and rogue also lack daily powers.

It's been the new design for about a year now. Some people love it, others hate it, others don't care either way.

[Kurald Galain]

Also, their Dailies are balanced (...kind of) by the fact that they recharge every milestone rather than every extended rest (or so I've heard),

You heard wrong. This is wishful thinking by one particular board member here, not anything official. Their dailies recharge once per day, just like anybody else's.

[MeeposFire]

That's the only thing that was holding be back from buying 4e...the lack of a simple, Essentials-style class based on INT. I get to upgrade. Yay!

Well you could play an int based knight using intelligent blademaster and the eladrin knight abilities and PP. Very neat and gets you some wizard in the mix too from the paragon path.

[Shatteredtower]

Simple as it may be, the bladesinger is going to wind up built around it's 1st level utility power, the bladesong. This briefly gives the character a bonus to AC and attack rolls, and a bigger (tier-based) bonus to damage rolls. While it's not on par with striker damage, it gets better at higher levels.

By 7th level, for example, your bladesong lets you make a melee basic attack against any adjacent enemy that hits you (with a melee attack, I believe), and it will let you make a melee attack every adjacent enemy when you spend an action point. Every time you hit an enemy with an attack, you can trigger one of your three at-will powers: an effect that does damage (and another status effect) to one target within a range of 10 squares.

Eventually, you'll be able to use that trigger effect against some opponent even if you miss the enemy you were attacking in melee, but it's finding that one or two rounds in which you can unleash everything, up to a daily power (which will then let you follow it up with a melee attack as a minor action, followed by a triggered effect if that attack hits) to most advantageous effect that might appeal to people who fancy themselves strategists.

The class may be more of a glass cannon than the wizard, since its main ability scores are Intelligence and Dexterity and it needs to get into the thick of melee to do its best work. Your armor class will be quite good, especially during bladesong, and you never draw opportunity attacks for use of the classes ranged or area powers, but your Fortitude and hit points might call for special care.

It can't match other wizards for control, though the Useful Power Fortune Card would let you spend a daily utility power to retain bladesong for one more use in a critical fight can narrow the gap. The lack of ranged options are a definite drawback, however, one that neither ranged weapons nor magic missile will overcome.

Still, being able to wade into an enemy front line, attack the lot of them, then dump up to three effects and types of damage on artillery or controllers lurking nearby, then do it again when members of that front line hit you back, has its charms. (Look into damage reduction options, moreso than usual.)

[Surrealistik]

Also, their Dailies are balanced (...kind of) by the fact that they recharge every milestone rather than every extended rest (or so I've heard), meaning that you can use them every two encounters, making them somewhere between Encounters and Dailies in functionality.

I wish. It would have made a lot more sense than their currently superfluous 'Dailies as Encounters' tripe.

[skywalker]

Well you could play an int based knight using intelligent blademaster and the eladrin knight abilities and PP. Very neat and gets you some wizard in the mix too from the paragon path.

That's going to be hard since Intelligent Blademaster has "Prerequisite: Swordmage."

[Sol]

Nothing a multiclass swordmage feat wouldn't solve...

[MeeposFire]

That's going to be hard since Intelligent Blademaster has "Prerequisite: Swordmage."

I guess I should have spelled out the expectation to multiclass swordmage considering how much it gives you on an int based melee build.

[Kurald Galain]

I guess I should have spelled out the expectation to multiclass swordmage considering how much it gives you on an int based melee build.

It doesn't, actually. The bladesinger gets to use int for his MBAs as a class feature, so he doesn't need IBM.

[MeeposFire]

It doesn't, actually. The bladesinger gets to use int for his MBAs as a class feature, so he doesn't need IBM.

The conversation was about an int based eladrin knight not a bladesinger.

[Fox Box Socks]

That's going to be hard since Intelligent Blademaster has "Prerequisite: Swordmage."
Eladrin Knight with 20 Int. Feat selection looks something like, oh, I don't know:
*: Shield Finesse
1: Melee Training (Intelligence). Retrain to Blade Initiate at Level 2
2: Intelligent Blademaster
4: Heavy Blade Expertise
6: Improved Defenses
8: Eladrin Swordmage Advance
10: World Serpent's Grasp

[MeeposFire]

Eladrin Knight with 20 Int. Feat selection looks something like, oh, I don't know:
*: Shield Finesse
1: Melee Training (Intelligence). Retrain to Blade Initiate at Level 2
2: Intelligent Blademaster
4: Heavy Blade Expertise
6: Improved Defenses
8: Eladrin Swordmage Advance
10: World Serpent's Grasp

You should probably switch to hammer. Somebody recently made a build using that with a staff of the traveler.

[Fox Box Socks]

I stuck with longsword only to get more out of Blade Initiate. Hammer is probably more optimal, but multiclassing Swordmage only to not use a heavy blade feels...wrong.

[MeeposFire]

I stuck with longsword only to get more out of Blade Initiate. Hammer is probably more optimal, but multiclassing Swordmage only to not use a heavy blade feels...wrong.

It probably feels even more wrong to use it to allow you to make raged basic attacks based on int using javelins and throwing hammers :smallwink: .

[Justicar]

I kinda liked Bladesinger. Now I want to build the ultimate arcane melee party: A bladesinger, a swordmage, a hexblade and rapier-wielding bard. All four of the roles covered and lots of mystical blade action.

[Renchard]

I kinda liked Bladesinger. Now I want to build the ultimate arcane melee party: A bladesinger, a swordmage, a hexblade and rapier-wielding bard. All four of the roles covered and lots of mystical blade action.
<blink>

Wow...that party composition screams "sexy". It's like Charlie's Angels, but with elves.

[Justicar]

<blink>

Wow...that party composition screams "sexy". It's like Charlie's Angels, but with elves.

...

I don't know what to say to that. I wasn't thinking much about the party beyond the class. Now I'm picturing a group of svelte silvans known as Sha'Lii's Archons lounging around a suite with an orb in the center that they use to communicate with their mysterious benefactor who gives them missions to fight fomorians and save the fey courts. They'd also have a gnome sidekick named Bahzleigh. You have either completely ruined the idea for me forever or made it even more awesome. I can't decide...

[Epinephrine]

... made it even more awesome.

This one. :smallbiggrin:

[randomhero00]

Hah, I've read most of essentials and I'm STILL confused as to what it's point is. It seems like DnD for idiots. Which takes the whole point out of DnD. Or is it just me?

[Justicar]

Hah, I've read most of essentials and I'm STILL confused as to what it's point is. It seems like DnD for idiots. Which takes the whole point out of DnD. Or is it just me?

I think its supposed to be an introductory version of the game. Learn the basics with essentials and then 'graduate' to PHB.

[Mando Knight]

Hah, I've read most of essentials and I'm STILL confused as to what it's point is. It seems like DnD for idiots. Which takes the whole point out of DnD. Or is it just me?

Essentials is several things, as far as I see. It's partly a new introductory set to 4e, partly an experiment with how to construct classes without the standard framework, partly an attempt to woo 3.5 players that might be attracted by the altered presentation (by-level tables, martial characters not getting dozens of pages of powers that are written out almost exactly like the spells, etc.), and partly part of WotC's continual efforts to recalibrate the game's balance (or, in a more ham-handed fashion, obvious power creep and nerfs).

[Kurald Galain]

I think its supposed to be an introductory version of the game. Learn the basics with essentials and then 'graduate' to PHB.

Considering all earlier books are out of print, I doubt this is what WOTC really intends.

[the quinn]

Hmm, I think you might be mistaken. The PHB doesn't seems to be out of print at all, I know there was a short outage of books but it all seems to be normal now. They just did a adjustment to many of the PHB classes for the class compendium, why would they do that if they are phasing out normal game play? I would like to think they are hitting two birds with one stone, giving older players more powers, while allowing a new ones get in on the action faster.

[flumphy]

Eladrin Knight with 20 Int. Feat selection looks something like, oh, I don't know:
*: Shield Finesse
1: Melee Training (Intelligence). Retrain to Blade Initiate at Level 2
2: Intelligent Blademaster
4: Heavy Blade Expertise
6: Improved Defenses
8: Eladrin Swordmage Advance
10: World Serpent's Grasp

Thanks for the advice. I was actually already aware of that build. One build requiring one specific race was a bit too specific for me to invest in the system, though.


Hah, I've read most of essentials and I'm STILL confused as to what it's point is. It seems like DnD for idiots. Which takes the whole point out of DnD. Or is it just me?

I don't care for virtual pissing contests, so I won't back up my claims. However, I assure you that I am not an idiot. I just don't find having limited resources fun. I find it stressful, not because it's intellectually challenging but because it puts me very much at the mercy of the DM and the dice. The Essentials classes let me focus on tactical decisions that I do find enjoyable.

I can think of several examples from other RPGs where classes with unlimited resources are more difficult to play than classes with limited ones. Being new to the system, I'm not sure if that applies to any Essentials classes, but there's no reason that being built around at-will powers means that they must be simpler.

[Kurald Galain]

Hmm, I think you might be mistaken. The PHB doesn't seems to be out of print at all, I know there was a short outage of books but it all seems to be normal now.
"Out of print" does not mean "not available in stores". It means that WOTC has ceased making more copies of the book, and is simply selling off what they have in stock.


I would like to think they are hitting two birds with one stone, giving older players more powers, while allowing a new ones get in on the action faster.
That doesn't work out, because almost everything in the 4.4 books is either unusable or undesirable for 4.0 characters (except for wizards and the new expertise feats, basically).

[twilsemail]

Hah, I've read most of essentials and I'm STILL confused as to what it's point is. It seems like DnD for idiots. Which takes the whole point out of DnD. Or is it just me?

I get the impression these guys have a club and a mailing list. Whenever any kind of thread about an Essentials anything pops up, someone is assigned to pop in and say something along the lines of "I don't know if you guys heard, but Essentials sucks. It's a fact. It's not possible for someone who isn't mentally deficient to enjoy Essentials. Period. Move along."

I didn't understand the edition war going from 3 to 4. I don't understand the e4e vs. 4e war. I won't understand whatever banner they decide to wave next.

Some people enjoy the damned game one way. Some in another. Why can't you let sleeping dogs lie?

[Reverent-One]

"Out of print" does not mean "not available in stores". It means that WOTC has ceased making more copies of the book, and is simply selling off what they have in stock.


Of course, the reason why they're not printing more is that they have enough in stock that they don't need to, and because of this they are not out of print. "Out of print" means that the publisher is no longer selling copies, period, and is stopping production when they have no copies left to sell. If we used your definition of "Out of Print", some or most of the New York Times Bestseller list would qualify.

[Sception]

Not a fan of the bladesinger. For one, this character concept already exists as the swordmage, and making the bladesinger a subclass of wizard instead of swordmage feels like an abandonment of the earlier class.

Next, this class is ostensibly a controller. But in what way exactly is that the case? The at-wills are controller enough for a secondary controller, but not a primary, the encounters don't exist, and the dailies are literally only as good as the encounter powers of a real controller.

On the other hand, it's class features and DPR would suggest its a striker, but it lacks the spike damage that a striker should be able to manage.

All in all, it's a messy class that doesn't know what it wants to be, another example of wotc not knowing what they want to do with the controller role, it steals the identity of what is (imo) a much cooler class in order to shove yet another character concept under the wizard's hat (I am so sick of that) regardless of how poorly it fits, and it serves no thematic purpose that wasn't already well covered by swordmages, wizards, hexblades, or a combination thereof.

All imo, of course. I would have been much happier with it as a subclass or even just a new build of swordmage, with real encounter and daily powers. I mean, Neverwinter is an expansion for Forgotten Realms, it should be building on the content presented in the Forgotten Realms Players Guide, not trying to supplant it.

Ugh. Just ugh. I used to like you so much, 4e. I hate to see you doing this to yourself.