Building a Daggerspell shaper

[mamothpriest]

Greetings Ladies and gentlemen of the playground!

I have a new campaign starting up in a few weeks and I was thinking about trying to run a rogue/druid/daggerspell shaper. I would like to know your opinions on it and how to go about building it. I normally play arcane "I'mma deal with you from half the world away" characters, so any RP tips and random tactics would be appreciated as well

[Fouredged Sword]

The best basic build will look something like Rogue / druid / daggerspell shaper. Wildclasp a monks belt for wiz to ac and an extra natural attack.

I would suggest a build something like this if you can't wildclasp a monks belt
ninja (as few as posible) / druid / dagger spell shaper.

Sudden strike is strictly weaker than sneak attack, but the wis to AC is good.

Another good mix for less druid is a lawful nutueral
Rogue 2 / Monk 2 / Druid x / daggerspell shaper. With this you trade one of your evasions for ray reflection and still get wis to ac.

Natural spell is a must for a character that spends his time as a wildshaped creature. Try to wildshape into something with pounce. A 2 level dip into totemist will give you lots of options and extra claw attacks for all your forms.

[gkathellar]

Build is obvious — Rogue 1/Druid 5+/Daggerspell Shaper 8-10. Those last two levels are optional because its questionable whether Daggerspell Flurry works when Wild Shaped. Pick up Natural Bond for your companion. Alternately, if you're not going to use Sneak Attack quite so much, grab Ninja instead for the AC Bonus.

In terms of roleplay, how much are you planning to embrace the class fluff? If you're not, I'd just go for a wily, roguish, play-it-by-ear sort who is actually really mindful and gets really angry over short-sightedness and lack of respect for the balance of the world.

[Urpriest]

My only disagreement with the above poster is that you probably shouldn't get Natural Bond. Even with it you'll be at minimum six levels behind on your companion. It's not really worth the resources at that point.

Definitely get Multiattack. As a sneak-attacking Druid it's important to have all the attacks of your full attack hit, which Multiattack can help you with. Improved Multiattack is less important. Try for forms with Pounce to deal with mobility issues, with the Fleshraker of course being the form of choice for much of your career, big cats to be used if your DM is allergic to dinosaurs.

Druids can be very sneaky. Consider being a halfling, some of the substitution levels are good for sneaky druids.

[Godskook]

Agree with what Ur-Priest said about your animal companion. D-Shapers don't really have one, they just have a class feature that can't accept reality.

Actually, if your DM allows retraining, grabbing the feat temporarily, in the 4-10 levels, it might be worth it there, but you'll want to retrain out of it around level 10, cause the thing hasn't gotten an upgrade since level ~5ish(At druid level 4, you can pick a better animal, for -3 to EDL, and with Natural bond, that's effectively EDL 5, and you're level 5 cause of the rogue dip).

[Hazzardevil]

I would personally reccomend Wildshape Ranger over Druid for this.
Mostly because you will have Better BAB and to-hit meaning that you van actually have that Golden 4th Iterative Attack at level 20.
And because you can also have more balanced Saves.

[Godskook]

I don't think +2 BAB(+.5 in fractional) and trading your Will save for a Reflex save(Note that Will is the more important save, and neither is really that 'bad' cause D-Shaper is good on both) is worth forfeiting spellcasting. Just in terms of combat, Shillelagh is spammable, and provides Druid with what is essentially a +1 greatsword, which more than makes up for the lost BAB early on, cause of the fact it doesn't cost gold to generate and comes online as early as level 1. Later on, things like Greater Luminous Armor and Shapechange become available, and I doubt you could find *ANYTHING* in the Ranger class that justifies giving up Shapechange.

[Greenish]

Shillelagh is spammable, and provides Druid with what is essentially a +1 greatsword+1 Double greatsword with a quarterstaff. Since Daggerspell Shaper requires TWF feat anyhow, you might as well take it on first level and smash some face.

[Psyren]

Druid is more powerful than WS Ranger for this, sure, but if you were really concerned about power you wouldn't go DS to begin with. I say Ninja/WS Ranger/DS for cool points.

[gorfnab]

I would personally reccomend Wildshape Ranger over Druid for this.

BAB +16 at 20
Wildshape Mystic Ranger 8/ Swordsage 2/ Daggerspell Shaper 10
Wildshape Mystic Ranger 6/ Swordsage 2/ Daggerspell Shaper 10/ Nature's Warrior 2

BAB +15 at 20
Wildshape Mystic Ranger 6/ Swordsage 2/ Daggerspell Shaper 10/ Warshaper 2
Wildshape Mystic Ranger 6/ Swordsage 2/ Daggerspell Shaper 10/ Bloodclaw Master 2

The feat Sword of Arcane Order will obviously give you some more versatility with these builds.

[Godskook]

Druid is more powerful than WS Ranger for this, sure, but if you were really concerned about power you wouldn't go DS to begin with. I say Ninja/WS Ranger/DS for cool points.

1.Is there a more powerful(and yet not painfully cheesy) route to improve a Druid's skill points and list so significantly?

2.Let me get this straight: If you give up 2 caster levels and your animal companion for something, you might as well give up full-casting entirely? That's 'cut off your nose to spite your face' type logic, cause we're talking about a 2 tier difference between the two builds, and the Druid build is still sitting solidly in tier 1(Zeal has it listed as a +1 prestige class, but I'd go +0, honestly).

[Greenish]

1.Is there a more powerful(and yet not painfully cheesy) route to improve a Druid's skill points and list so significantly?Initiate feats add a bunch of skills as class skills. Skill points, there's Nymph's Kiss but not much else.

[gkathellar]

Iteratives are useless to Daggerspell Shapers, as they spend all their time Wild Shaped.

[Urpriest]

Iteratives are useless to Daggerspell Shapers, as they spend all their time Wild Shaped.

Ah yes, this brings up an important point. You probably will want Improved Unarmed Strike so you can actually use those iteratives (and depending on interpretation TWF) in Wild Shape.

[gkathellar]

Ah yes, this brings up an important point. You probably will want Improved Unarmed Strike so you can actually use those iteratives (and depending on interpretation TWF) in Wild Shape.

Where are you getting that from? Unarmed attacks and Natural Weapon attacks are wholly distinct. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a) The only way to get iteratives on your natural attacks is Improved Rapidstrike, from the Draconomicon.


2.Let me get this straight: If you give up 2 caster levels and your animal companion for something, you might as well give up full-casting entirely? That's 'cut off your nose to spite your face' type logic, cause we're talking about a 2 tier difference between the two builds, and the Druid build is still sitting solidly in tier 1(Zeal has it listed as a +1 prestige class, but I'd go +0, honestly).

Wildshape Variant Mystic Ranger with Sword of the Arcane Order is arguably a Tier 2 build, and loses a lot less from having level 18 spellcasting than the Druid does. The Druid is still much more powerful, but it bears notation.

[Fouredged Sword]

Where are you getting that from? Unarmed attacks and Natural Weapon attacks are wholly distinct. The only way to get iteratives on your natural attacks is Improved Rapidstrike, from the Draconomicon.


the point in unarmed strikes are that you get an attack that allows for iteratives that stays with all of your forms. You then get the multiattack line and you get all of your natural attacks + a full attack worth of unarmed strikes based on the size of your wildshaped body. If you are focuseing on wildshaped combat it's not a bad build.

Also to throw in the ring for optimiseing wildshape - Incarnum sticks with you for all of your shapes. Pick a good shape with ounce and then use incarnum to grant it new natural weapons. Two levels of totemist should get you 4 claw attacks, two slams, and some other misc attacks on any form.

[gkathellar]

It's not bad, but I wouldn't do it. You need a two-feat investment on a feat-starved build to do anything other than piddling damage with them, and in return you get some extra attacks that don't benefit from Daggerspell Shaper and you get to miss more often with the attacks that do.

[Urpriest]

It's not bad, but I wouldn't do it. You need a two-feat investment on a feat-starved build to do anything other than piddling damage with them, and in return you get some extra attacks that don't benefit from Daggerspell Shaper and you get to miss more often with the attacks that do.

No, you need a one-feat investment to do your Str+Sneak Attack from one to three additional times in a full attack, which is the majority of your damage on your other attacks anyway, at a penalty of -2 to one or two of your normal attacks (since you're taking Multiattack regardless).

[Psyren]

1.Is there a more powerful(and yet not painfully cheesy) route to improve a Druid's skill points and list so significantly?

What does a druid need a ton of skills for? Balance, Climb, Jump and Swim are all wasted points due to wildshape; Handle Animal is based on your dump stat and isn't necessary anyway (just charm it); You don't need Ride at all and who needs stealth skills when you can turn into a rat?


2.Let me get this straight: If you give up 2 caster levels and your animal companion for something, you might as well give up full-casting entirely?

You're looking at it the wrong way. The way to evaluate a PrC is simple: "What am I getting for what I give up?"

The simple fact is that DS gives Druids nothing that straight Druid doesn't beat. Power can't be the reason for entering, so if all you're getting out of it is flavor, you can get that in spades from being a Ranger.

[Godskook]

What does a druid need a ton of skills for? Balance, Climb, Jump and Swim are all wasted points due to wildshape; Handle Animal is based on your dump stat and isn't necessary anyway (just charm it); You don't need Ride at all and who needs stealth skills when you can turn into a rat?

1.Wildshape is not an end-all be-all solution to all your problems, and at low-mid levels(3-10), you really can't afford to blow a spell to solve every movement oriented problem that comes up.

2.Balance, in particular, is an awesome way to spend 5 points, cause the times when you're most likely to need it are times when you're also not going to be in a shape that negates your need for it.(in-combat response to grease)

3.Jump is handy for making combat jump checks, but I'll grant that you'll rarely, if ever, actually need to jump something difficult.

4.And honestly, your list is mostly straw-man, as it starts with the least meaningful rogue skills, includes several druid skills and either skips or glosses over all the really useful ones. What you want from a rogue dip are things like Bluff (Cha), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (local) (Int), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha), and Use Rope (Dex).

5.Your dismissal of the stealth skills is something I find laughable at any level beyond ~10, when a check of ~25 isn't going to hide you anymore. It also doesn't keep you any quieter to change size via wildshape(although the racials still help), meaning that your point is practically moot as concerns move silently



You're looking at it the wrong way. The way to evaluate a PrC is simple: "What am I getting for what I give up?"

Actually, I already did that for myself, but I'll post it for posterity.

Getting: A fairly strong skill list, the ability to wildshape as a move action(which isn't in the base class at all), SA dice, some wilding clasp effects, and the ability to quicken a spell for free dex times per day.

Losing: Animal Companion, 2 caster levels(affordable), some wildshape shapes(tiny/huge/plant and elemental wild shape)

Now, let's see what you're losing for what you give up, assuming the builds are Rogue 1/Class 9/D-Shaper 10

Getting: 3 BAB(2.25 fractional), final iterative, track, endurance, swift tracker, evasion

Losing: 5th-9th level spells(good spell progression too), minor druid class features, will save turns into a reflex save bonus(Considering the dex focus and D-Shaper's good progression, I consider this a loss).

To me, that's not even close to worth it.


The simple fact is that DS gives Druids nothing that straight Druid doesn't beat. Power can't be the reason for entering, so if all you're getting out of it is flavor, you can get that in spades from being a Ranger.

And the simple fact is that Ranger gives the build nothing that Druid doesn't beat. Power can't be the reason for switching to Ranger, so if all you're getting out of it is flavor, you can get that in spades from entering as a Druid.


Wildshape Variant Mystic Ranger with Sword of the Arcane Order is arguably a Tier 2 build, and loses a lot less from having level 18 spellcasting than the Druid does. The Druid is still much more powerful, but it bears notation.

Eh, it stradles the fence early on, but winds up being tier 3 late-game. Compare to Bard who actually gets 6th level spells, and quite of a few of which are either at lower levels than on the sorc/wiz/clr/dr lists, or are unique to the class in powerful ways.

[Psyren]

1.Wildshape is not an end-all be-all solution to all your problems, and at low-mid levels(3-10), you really can't afford to blow a spell to solve every movement oriented problem that comes up.

How many "movement-oriented problems" that need magical solutions are there at low levels, anyway?

And at low levels, the DM can't really screw you over without screwing over anyone else who isn't the monk or rogue, so this is a non-issue, unless your party is a wandering troupe of acrobats or something.



2.Balance

Is nice but you're still T1 without it. I've never heard of Grease being the bane of druids everywhere before.


3.Jump

Leave it to the Monk.



4.And honestly, your list is mostly straw-man, as it starts with the least meaningful rogue skills, includes several druid skills and either skips or glosses over all the really useful ones. What you want from a rogue dip are things like Bluff (Cha), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (local) (Int), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha), and Use Rope (Dex).

This nice list is unfortunately irrelevant to this thread, as the majority of these skills aren't on the Daggerspell Shaper's list.


5.Your dismissal of the stealth skills is something I find laughable at any level beyond ~10, when a check of ~25 isn't going to hide you anymore. It also doesn't keep you any quieter to change size via wildshape(although the racials still help), meaning that your point is practically moot as concerns move silently

First off, sneaking around isn't even your job. But say you want to do it. Camouflage means they won't see you. Our say you need to move around; who cares if they hear you? You're a rat. Or a viper. Or a pony.



To me, that's not even close to worth it.

My point exactly, so you might as well go in with Ranger.


And the simple fact is that Ranger gives the build nothing that Druid doesn't beat. Power can't be the reason for switching to Ranger, so if all you're getting out of it is flavor, you can get that in spades from entering as a Druid.

The opportunity cost is higher.

[Fax Celestis]

Daggerspell Shaper always seemed like it was explicitly made for Savage Grapple:


Prerequisite: Wild shape, sneak attack.
Benefit: While you are in a wild shape, any time you make a successful grapple check to damage a creature with which you are already grappling, you can add your sneak attack damage as well. Creatures not subject to sneak attacks don't take this extra damage.

[Urpriest]

At higher levels Hide is a very cheap way to avoid all targeted spells and attacks with 100% certainty, since everything else falls to True Seeing. It's a little hard to be a convincing rat when you're busy mauling someone. You just need concealment or cover, neither of which are too hard to get.

However, Godskook, you ignore the loss of wildshape HD, which I consider a pretty major sacrifice in a wildshape-focused build.

[TwylyghT]

If you can use Dragon content, issue 325 has Theurgic Bond which allows all of your spell caster class levels stack for determining the abilities of your Animal Companion. Much better deal than Natural Bond.

EDIT

Sorry i missed the part on Theurgic Bond where you have to have the ability to get a familiar as well to take it, that my bad. :(

I leave the mention up in case someone can make it work efficiently.

[gkathellar]

If you could somehow get Arcane Caster Level 1 (maybe by entering with Spellthief?) you could take Obtain Familiar, which might allow Theurgic Bond to work. Maybe. I'm too lazy to look up any of these things right now.

[Godskook]

The opportunity cost is higher.

Then find me another way to make a Druid/Rogue hybrid that is still tier 1, as I previously challenged you to do.

Cause your argument is as silly as arguing that it is worse to lose 2 dollars out of a million than to lose 2 cents out of 20, and thus, you'd rather have 20 dollars than a million.

[Psyren]

Then find me another way to make a Druid/Rogue hybrid that is still tier 1, as I previously challenged you to do.

Why bother dilute your T1 with rogue in the first place?


Cause your argument is as silly as arguing that it is worse to lose 2 dollars out of a million than to lose 2 cents out of 20, and thus, you'd rather have 20 dollars than a million.

If you cared about money (power) to begin with, you'd be in a different PrC.

[Greenish]

If you cared about money (power) to begin with, you'd be in a different PrC.Maybe he doesn't want as much power as possible without wanting to give too much of it away?

Just because you're not going Pun Pun doesn't mean you might as well be a cha-focused muckdweller monk. I don't know why this concept seems so hard to grasp.

[Psyren]

Maybe he doesn't want as much power as possible without wanting to give too much of it away?

Just because you're not going Pun Pun doesn't mean you might as well be a cha-focused muckdweller monk. I don't know why this concept seems so hard to grasp.

That's a straw man - I don't consider a Wildshape Ranger/DS to be a "cha-focused muckdweller monk." I just don't see what the class really adds to druid to make it a worthwhile entry.

[Greenish]

That's a straw man - I don't consider a Wildshape Ranger/DS to be a "cha-focused muckdweller monk."And druid/ds isn't Pun Pun, I am aware of that.


I just don't see what the class really adds to druid to make it a worthwhile entry.It's not what the daggerspell shaper adds to druid, but what druid adds to the daggerspell shaper. The point is, if you want to be a daggerspell shaper, rogue/druid is a perfectly valid entry.