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Shreaver

2011-08-07, 02:10 AM

Hey guys,

I'm wondering if you fine gentlemen will be able to offer aid to one so helpless such as I. I've been thinking and experimenting on this character for a couple of weeks now, but here's the rundown:

Race: Illumian
Stats:

STR - 16
DEX - 12
CON - 14
INT - 16
WIS - 10
CHA - 10
I'm currently losing my mind because alot of the cool feats I want I only get after level 9. I guess that's a tradeoff for not going fighter, but, at the same time, maybe I'm trying to do too much...

Here's how it is with dips into Swordsage at CL4 and CL5:

Level 1 - Able Learner
Level 3 - Adaptive Style
Level 6 - Power Attack
Level 7 - Iron Heart Aura (Bonus)
Level 9 - Stormguard Warrior
Level 11 - Blind Fight (Bonus)
Level 12 - Improved Bull Rush
Level 15 - Shocktrooper, Improved Initiative (Bonus)
Level 18 - Leap Attack
Level 19 - (Random Bonus Feat)
And here's how it is with dips into Psychic Warrior at CL4 and CL5:

Level 1 - Able Learner
Level 3 - Adaptive Style
Level 4 - Power Attack
Level 5 - Improved Bull Rush
Level 6 - Leap Attack
Level 7 - Iron Heart Aura (Bonus)
Level 9 - Stormguard Warrior
Level 11 - Blind Fight (Bonus)
Level 12 - Shocktrooper
And then whatever I decide to do after that.

If I go Swordsage, I'll have more maneuvers at CL4 and CL5 and my character will make more sense for RP purposes. If I go the Psychic Warrior way, I'll get all the feats that I really want for this build by CL12, but an extremely non-versatile psychic warrior, especially considering that the first level of it will grant me zero psychic points, and the second level will grant me 1.

I guess one of the other things I could do is talk to my DM about giving up the AC bonus that Swordsages get, as well as one of their stances at level 2 in return for an extra feat. Alternatively, I could just dip into Swordsage and then Psion, seeing as how it is far more useful than a single level dip into Psychic Warrior...

Sheesh, my brain hurts. Do you guys have any suggestions? I'm sure that most of you would have figured out by now that my character intends to be a charger, what with shocktrooper, leap attack, etc. I've considered flaws, but I really REALLY want to try and avoid them.

If you guys are curious about maneuvers, I'll gladly share that since I've got that all planned out too, haha...

Zaq

2011-08-07, 02:14 AM

The biggest question, for me, is when you'll be actually starting play. What level are you actually creating the character at?

Also, bonus points for using my favorite race. What's your power word?

Mutant Sheep

2011-08-07, 02:20 AM

Shreaver

2011-08-07, 02:21 AM

The biggest question, for me, is when you'll be actually starting play. What level are you actually creating the character at?

Also, bonus points for using my favorite race. What's your power word?

Power words are Aesh and Uur, and our starting level will be level 2. And yeah, first time playing Illumian, been wanting to for a while!

Well you can always ask your DM to give you a feat in exchange for doing the best roleplay you can do.:smallamused: It happens!:smallbiggrin:

Can't rule that out, right? I should give it a shot, actually. The guy running the game is a really cool bloke and he's actually taken some of my suggestions on board already. =D

Zaq

2011-08-07, 02:33 AM

OK. I wouldn't worry about planning TOO rigidly if you're starting at level 2. There's a lot that can change over a level or two, and seeing what you need and want at the table will help just as much as agonizing for hours ahead of time. (That's not to say that planning is bad . . . quite the opposite. I just wouldn't be too worried about level 9+ if you're starting at level 2, y'know? Well, unless your group levels up way faster than mine.)

I will mention that unless you're a Swordsage (and indeed a primary Swordsage), you probably don't NEED Adaptive Style. It's a neat trick, but I wouldn't take it in preference to a lot of other feats, at least not on a Warblade. So that can probably help you shift the feats you want down one slot each, assuming that you still meet the prereqs.

Shreaver

2011-08-07, 02:50 AM

Shreaver

2011-08-08, 12:19 AM

At level 20 I get to update a maneuver. Should I go from Swooping Dragon Strike to Feral Death Blow? Or should I instead change dancing mongoose to raging mongoose. I already have Mountain Tombstone Strike, Time Stands Still and Diamond Nightmare Blade.

CONFOOZED! :confused:

Darrin

2011-08-08, 09:42 AM

Level 1 - Able Learner

What do you need this for?

Level 3 - Adaptive Style

You don't realy need this until you get Swordsage levels, and even then you can probably live without it by using your Swordsage maneuvers for utility and recover your warblade maneuvers with a swift action.

For that matter... do you really need the Swordsage levels?

Level 6 - Power Attack

Hmm... converting your Combat Rhythm bonuses into damage... ok.

Level 7 - Iron Heart Aura (Bonus)
Level 9 - Stormguard Warrior

I don't recall how you are getting pounce... Spirit Lion Totem? You need some more attacks... Whirling Frenzy can help a little (maybe grab Extra Rage later, if your DM allows it to apply to Whirling Frenzy). TWF is available via Gloves of the Balanced Hand, so you can probably put that off until later.

Sheesh, my brain hurts. Do you guys have any suggestions?

I don't see why you need the Swordsage, other than you're suffering from Candy Shop Syndrome and can't stand the thought of not having all those cool maneuvers.

How about...

1) Warblade 1. Feat: Power Attack
2) Warblade 2.
3) Warblade 3. Feat: Improved Bull Rush
4) Barbarian 1. Pounce (Spirit Lion Totem), Whirling Frenzy (UA variant)
5) Barbarian 2. Improved Trip (Wolf Totem)
6) Warblade 4. Feat: Shock Trooper
7) Warblade 5. Bonus: Iron Heart Aura
8) Warblade 6.
9) Warblade 7. Feat: Stormguard Warrior
10) Warblade 8.
11) Warblade 9. Bonus: Blind-Fight/Improved Initiative
12) Warblade 10. Feat: Leap Attack

From there you can dip two levels of Fighter for TWF/Imp TWF, take Greater TWF at level 15.

Or Ranger 2, use Dragonborn to swap Track for Dragon Tail. Imp TWF at level 15, Gr TWF at level 18.

Or Totemist 2 for three to four claw attacks, Double Chakra at level 15 for Lamia belt and you can get up to six claw attacks. Add a Fanged Ring for Improved Unarmed Strike, maybe take Snap Kick at level 18.

Shreaver

2011-08-08, 08:17 PM

What do you need this for?

Able Learner is for RP purposes. This is a very skill heavy game, and I'm probably the best skill junkie in our game.

You don't realy need this until you get Swordsage levels, and even then you can probably live without it by using your Swordsage maneuvers for utility and recover your warblade maneuvers with a swift action.

For that matter... do you really need the Swordsage levels?

I've dropped Adaptive Style, actually. Maybe I will pick it up later. Two level dips at CL4 and CL5 help me get an adjusted Level 2 stance as a Warblade at CL6. Swordsage is simply preferred for RP purposes and because going in as any time of Barbarian for rage or pounce isn't worth it to me. I can get pounce as a maneuver and rage messes with me Concentration skill for Diamond maneuvers.

Hmm... converting your Combat Rhythm bonuses into damage... ok.

Yup.

I don't recall how you are getting pounce... Spirit Lion Totem? You need some more attacks... Whirling Frenzy can help a little (maybe grab Extra Rage later, if your DM allows it to apply to Whirling Frenzy). TWF is available via Gloves of the Balanced Hand, so you can probably put that off until later.

I'm getting charged pounce as a maneuver.

I don't see why you need the Swordsage, other than you're suffering from Candy Shop Syndrome and can't stand the thought of not having all those cool maneuvers.

How about...

1) Warblade 1. Feat: Power Attack
2) Warblade 2.
3) Warblade 3. Feat: Improved Bull Rush
4) Barbarian 1. Pounce (Spirit Lion Totem), Whirling Frenzy (UA variant)
5) Barbarian 2. Improved Trip (Wolf Totem)
6) Warblade 4. Feat: Shock Trooper
7) Warblade 5. Bonus: Iron Heart Aura
8) Warblade 6.
9) Warblade 7. Feat: Stormguard Warrior
10) Warblade 8.
11) Warblade 9. Bonus: Blind-Fight/Improved Initiative
12) Warblade 10. Feat: Leap Attack

From there you can dip two levels of Fighter for TWF/Imp TWF, take Greater TWF at level 15.

Or Ranger 2, use Dragonborn to swap Track for Dragon Tail. Imp TWF at level 15, Gr TWF at level 18.

Or Totemist 2 for three to four claw attacks, Double Chakra at level 15 for Lamia belt and you can get up to six claw attacks. Add a Fanged Ring for Improved Unarmed Strike, maybe take Snap Kick at level 18.

I have another character who is an all-fighter TWF. I'm probably going to stick to 2HF with this guy. Also, I may not pursue the trip direction. I already have a lot of maneuvers, and I'm also trying to become a good charger since this is nothing I have ever done before. I will also have a maneuver called Mighty Throw, so I don't have to trip anyone to get them prone, I think. Although, I can see how my opponents could try and tumble to land on their feet, maybe?

I'm don't want to sound like I'm dismissing everything you say. Afterall, everyone helped me to see that I don't actually HAVE to have Adaptive Style until perhaps later levels. I think, at this point, what I'm mostly curious about is if I should take two dips into Swordsage, or one dip into Swordsage and then another in some other class. I've been thinking Psychic Warrior, but I am uncertain. All I know is that if I went the Barbarian route, there are a bunch of class feats that I probably wouldn't ever use and I would much rather the bonus feats.

Also:

At level 20 I get to update a maneuver. Should I go from Swooping Dragon Strike to Feral Death Blow? Or should I instead change dancing mongoose to raging mongoose. I already have Mountain Tombstone Strike, Time Stands Still and Diamond Nightmare Blade.

I'm still curious about that. :smallbiggrin:

Godskook

2011-08-08, 11:19 PM

Let's see:

1.What's your character concept?

2.What's already set in stone cause you've already started playing?

3.What are you dedicated to and really don't want to change?

Cause skill-focused warblade isn't a great character concept mechanically, and I'd rather give advice that'd lead you away from it rather than deeper into it, but I'm not going to drag you away from what # 1 or 2, and I'd rather not be hitting my head against #3, especially without knowing so.

ShneekeyTheLost

2011-08-08, 11:27 PM

PsyWar is a good 4 level splash. Powers include Expansion, bonus feats, and only a loss of 1BAB.

Shreaver

2011-08-09, 12:42 AM

@Godskook;

1) Concept... Perhaps the best way to show you is by showing you CL2 character sheet. There may be certain things that don't make sense to you, like the extra DM feats and the way that HP is set out. Our campaign is a little different with some slightly different rules, so it might be a good idea to ignore those things. The number of skill points might also not make sense... You might want to ignore that, lol. Just trust me when I say that it's okay. Anyway, here's are a couple of links:

Page 1 (http://www.mediafire.com/?nj4con8dcc6gfdb)
Page 2 (http://www.mediafire.com/?blhocz4dovsna2u)
Page 3 (http://www.mediafire.com/?7sigphwus48j6d8)

2) Well, he's definitely a Warblade, and that's all there is to it at the moment. We've only started at level 2.

3) I really want to be a charger. As far as I know, Stormguard Warrior, Shocktrooper and Leap Attack are very important for my build. I'm not sure if I should budge from Able Learner, though.

@Shneekey;

Yeah, I think so too. But, I won't have any power points. Which sucks.

@Everyone
I feel I should explain the skill thing in more detail. Our DM has explained that there are certain things that are very important:

"I don't want to be militant, but I'm just asking for you, the players, to look at skills in their role as rounding characters out, rather than striving for every extra combat edge. Character identity, background, personality, etc"

Then he illustrated a great point about knowledge and not investing anything in them:

Yes, Knowledge (local) is only directly useful to you in the location for which you have it, but try to imagine growing up in a place and not knowing anything about it:

Character: I'll have a beer
Bartender: Sure. You're new in town. Where are you from?
Character: Sydney
Bartender: Oh, I haven't heard of it. Where is it?
Character: I don't know. [Knowledge (geography)]
Bartender: Huh? Well, is it big? How many people live there?
Character: I don't know. [Knowledge (local)]
Bartender: Oh. What are the people like? Who are your gods?
Character: I don't know. [Knowledge (local), Knowledge (religion)]
Bartender: Well, is it like ours?
Character: I don't know. [Knowledge (geography)]
Bartender: Who's the king?
Character: I don't know. [Knowledge (local)]
[Bartender reaches for sword under bar to deal with this obviously deceiving or mad customer...]

I realize that if I take Able Learner, I may not start off as the most ample fighter in town, but it's great for leveling up a great many important skills at early levels to give a great edge in a lot on situations.

Greenish

2011-08-09, 12:49 AM

1) Concept... Perhaps the best way to show you is by showing you CL2 character sheet.That's not a character concept. :smallamused:

[Edit]: Also, if your DM is making you to roll for knowing even the most basic things about your own character's past, he should at least have the common courtesy to give everyone Able Learner for free, accompanied by extra skill points.

Shreaver

2011-08-09, 01:39 AM

That's not a character concept. :smallamused:

[Edit]: Also, if your DM is making you to roll for knowing even the most basic things about your own character's past, he should at least have the common courtesy to give everyone Able Learner for free, accompanied by extra skill points.

Ah!~ I forgot to add after that... He's basically an intelligent martial fighter with a fondness for learning new languages.

Also, the DMs really good, actually. While he might not have given us Able Learner, he did give us the option to have 4 extra skill points. He also told us to take our INT bonus and double it for the purposes of skill points. So I managed to start off with a total of 10 extra skill points. But, since I was allowed to reinvest them into the Speak Languages skill, I did.

Godskook

2011-08-09, 02:05 AM

1) Concept... Perhaps the best way to show you is by showing you CL2 character sheet. There may be certain things that don't make sense to you, like the extra DM feats and the way that HP is set out. Our campaign is a little different with some slightly different rules, so it might be a good idea to ignore those things. The number of skill points might also not make sense... You might want to ignore that, lol. Just trust me when I say that it's okay. Anyway, here's are a couple of links:

As Greenish said, that's not a character concept. I'm looking for whatever you think, from an abstract point-of-view, is *REQUIRED* for your character to be the 'same' to you. For instance, a fist-2-face martial artist concept can be built mechanically as a monk, unarmed swordsage, tashalatoran psionicist, sacred fist, or enlightened fist, but *CAN'T* be a spiked chain tripper.

2) Well, he's definitely a Warblade, and that's all there is to it at the moment. We've only started at level 2.

Is there a reason for the Warblade base class choice, or is it set in stone already cause you've started playing?

3) I really want to be a charger. As far as I know, Stormguard Warrior, Shocktrooper and Leap Attack are very important for my build. I'm not sure if I should budge from Able Learner, though.

As for Stormguard Warrior:
Channel the Storm - You're giving up an incredibly strong attack roll and a large amount of damage for +4 on attack/damage rolls against the same target next round. This is a bad option unless your DM powergames AC really high to the point that you can't hit them while not power attacking.
Combat Rhythm - You're giving up attacks this turn to deal mildly more damage next turn. For a charger, this option is made of fail.
Fight the Horde - A double-condition option which involves hitting things without killing them. Not a charger's job description, nor is using puny options like fighting 'defensively'.

Ironheart Aura: Scrap it. It gives a mild save bonus, but only under two conditions. 1.When you're in an IH stance and 2.when you're adjacent to said ally. You're a charger. Your stance for 90% of fights is going to be Leading the Charge. That's White Raven, not Iron Heart. Secondly, you're charging. You're never going to be near allies enough to warrant the benefit.

I agree with previous posters that Adaptive Style is not worth it on a Warblade primary.

And finally, prioritize Improved Initiative above blind-fight. You'll use the former in *EVERY* fight.

PS: Talk to your DM about fractional BAB/Saves. It makes saves less wonky, makes BAB more appropriate to your classes when you multiclass, and is generally more 'balanced' than RAW.

Shreaver

2011-08-09, 02:24 AM

As Greenish said, that's not a character concept. I'm looking for whatever you think, from an abstract point-of-view, is *REQUIRED* for your character to be the 'same' to you. For instance, a fist-2-face martial artist concept can be built mechanically as a monk, unarmed swordsage, tashalatoran psionicist, sacred fist, or enlightened fist, but *CAN'T* be a spiked chain tripper.

I understand. I posted a response, maybe I can refine it a bit more. He's a 2-handed bastard sword wielding martial artist who I'm building around the charging pounce/leap attack/shocktrooper combo. Everything else, such as stormguard warrior, has been advised to me.

Is there a reason for the Warblade base class choice, or is it set in stone already cause you've started playing?

In the past, I haven't had access to the Tomb of Battle book and I felt that the Warblade would be a lot of fun. And indeed, I've begun playing the game as a Warblade and I feel I should not change this now.

As for Stormguard Warrior:
Channel the Storm - You're giving up an incredibly strong attack roll and a large amount of damage for +4 on attack/damage rolls against the same target next round. This is a bad option unless your DM powergames AC really high to the point that you can't hit them while not power attacking.
Combat Rhythm - You're giving up attacks this turn to deal mildly more damage next turn. For a charger, this option is made of fail.
Fight the Horde - A double-condition option which involves hitting things without killing them. Not a charger's job description, nor is using puny options like fighting 'defensively'.

Hrm...okay. What would you advise in place of this?

Ironheart Aura: Scrap it. It gives a mild save bonus, but only under two conditions. 1.When you're in an IH stance and 2.when you're adjacent to said ally. You're a charger. Your stance for 90% of fights is going to be Leading the Charge. That's White Raven, not Iron Heart. Secondly, you're charging. You're never going to be near allies enough to warrant the benefit.

Ah, the only reason why I really felt inclined to take it was as a prerequisite for Stormguard warrior.

I agree with previous posters that Adaptive Style is not worth it on a Warblade primary.

Yes, I definitely see this.

And finally, prioritize Improved Initiative above blind-fight. You'll use the former in *EVERY* fight.

Yes, I think you are right.

PS: Talk to your DM about fractional BAB/Saves. It makes saves less wonky, makes BAB more appropriate to your classes when you multiclass, and is generally more 'balanced' than RAW.

Thanks for your help! I think I will investigate this at length.

I'll come back with a revised road map for this character in a bit. Please let me know if you still feel that I am taking an inefficient path with this character.

And thank you for your patience with me!

ShneekeyTheLost

2011-08-09, 05:21 AM

Shreaver

2011-08-09, 08:10 AM

For PsyWar dips, don't forget you also get bonus PP based on Wisdom score, even if you have 0 PP from your class. And 1st level powers are only 1pp each. In a 4 level dip, you only end up with a single 2nd level Power, your others will be 1st level powers, with a manifestation cost of 1pp each.

And bonus feats are STILL bonus feats.

I'd probably only dip into 2 level of anything. At this point, I believe it is wiser to dip into PsyWar at CL4 and then SwordS at CL5. However, my preference would be to have two SwordS dips at CL4 and CL5 if my DM is willing to grant me an extra feat.

Darrin

2011-08-09, 08:14 AM

Able Learner is for RP purposes. This is a very skill heavy game, and I'm probably the best skill junkie in our game.

You're a charger. You need that feat slot for charging. Particularly to get both Leap Attack and Shock Trooper up and running at a fairly low ECL.

On the other hand, I can't deny that investing in some skills helps round out the character and can help with RP. What skills are you trying to focus on? There may be another way to get what you need (such as the Skilled City-Dweller ACF (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a)) and save that feat for something else.

I've dropped Adaptive Style, actually. Maybe I will pick it up later. Two level dips at CL4 and CL5 help me get an adjusted Level 2 stance as a Warblade at CL6. Swordsage is simply preferred for RP purposes and because going in as any time of Barbarian for rage or pounce isn't worth it to me. I can get pounce as a maneuver and rage messes with me Concentration skill for Diamond maneuvers.

Changing combat tactics from round-to-round isn't "RP purposes". Personal style will obviously differ, but to me "RP purposes" is telling everyone that you're the world's foremost authority on dwarven boatbuilding, or that you knew the local high priestess before she was a "virgin" and she's not nearly as chaste as everyone thinks she is, or that you can put a fleshraker dino to sleep by rubbing it's belly (although it works a lot faster if you give it a couple gallons of ale first). If you want to roleplay a more interesting character, just do so via roleplaying. You don't necessarily *have* to spend feat slots and skill ranks to make your character more interesting at the expense of reducing his combat effectiveness.

I'm getting charged pounce as a maneuver.

Barbarian dip is more reliable, and leaves that maneuver slot open for something else.

I have another character who is an all-fighter TWF. I'm probably going to stick to 2HF with this guy. Also, I may not pursue the trip direction. I already have a lot of maneuvers, and I'm also trying to become a good charger since this is nothing I have ever done before. I will also have a maneuver called Mighty Throw, so I don't have to trip anyone to get them prone, I think. Although, I can see how my opponents could try and tumble to land on their feet, maybe?

Stormguard Warrior synergizes better with TWF... not so much synergy with charge/pounce. The Improved Trip was just "low-hanging fruit": a reliable combat debuff that you can pickup via another level of Barbarian (skipping the useless prereq feat), which helps you delay your second stance at Warblade 4 until your IL = 5. (However, the third level stances are meh... you'll probably want to spend most of your time in Leading the Charge and Punishing Stance.) Mighty Throw does something very similar, but Improved Trip as a feat is more flexible, since it can be used on any attack, including as part of a full attack or on an AoO.

I'm don't want to sound like I'm dismissing everything you say. Afterall, everyone helped me to see that I don't actually HAVE to have Adaptive Style until perhaps later levels.

No offense taken. You have a lot of really cool things you want to get into this build, and we're just trying to help you focus on what is really important and pare down some of the things that seem cool but don't really help. Most requests for optimization help boil down to: "I really want to do X, but I will absolutely never nuh-uh ever consider doing Y instead", followed by a lot of posts that say "X isn't nearly as cool as you think it is, you really need to consider some variation of Y". The best solution for you is probably somewhere in the middle of X and Y.

I think, at this point, what I'm mostly curious about is if I should take two dips into Swordsage, or one dip into Swordsage and then another in some other class. I've been thinking Psychic Warrior, but I am uncertain.

I think if you look at it from the standpoint of "How does this make me a better charger?" then that might help. Swordsage gives you access to some boosts that increase your mobility, some damage buffs, and some non-charging utilities. PsyWar offers some nifty gimmicks like expansion, dimension hop (via Mantled Warrior/Freedom mantle), and eventually hustle, but may require a more involved investment.

All I know is that if I went the Barbarian route, there are a bunch of class feats that I probably wouldn't ever use and I would much rather the bonus feats.

I prefer to think of it as more of a buffet of different ACFs. Whirling Frenzy (rage variant from UA) is a damage buff and an extra attack, which helps with Pounce/charging. The various totems can add bonus feats or abilities that might be difficult to get via other means: improved grab, trapfinding, etc.

At level 20 I get to update a maneuver. Should I go from Swooping Dragon Strike to Feral Death Blow? Or should I instead change dancing mongoose to raging mongoose. I already have Mountain Tombstone Strike, Time Stands Still and Diamond Nightmare Blade.

You're a charger. Take War Master's Charge. If your allies don't like charging with you, then at level 20 you can afford to buy some allies who will. Consider 2 SP hires a mercenary for a day, each merc does at least +25 damage on a charge, so 10 GP = 20 mercs = up to +500 damage on a charge.

If that's not to your liking, I'd probably take Strike of Perfect Clarity over Feral Death Blow.

Hrm...okay. What would you advise in place of this?

Re: replacing Stormguard Warrior.

Travel Devotion is quite nifty, but as a Warblade you usually need your swift actions for something else. (You can also get swift-action movement in a pinch via magic items like Anklets of Translocation, Chronocharm of the Horizon Walker, and Quicksilver Boots.)

On chargers, I love me some Shape Soulmeld/Open Least Chakra + Thunderstep Boots (+1d4 sonic damage, save vs. stun), but Magic of Incarnum isn't everyone's cup of tea.

Leap of the Heavens (PHBII) duplicates the effects of Leaping Dragon Stance but allows you to stay in a more charge-friendly stance. Per the Rules Compendium, you can leap over "obstacles" that would normally prevent a charge, and being able to make long jumps without a 20' run-up can come in quite handy. (Check with your DM if he considers intervening creatures as "obstacles".)

You can also keep the two-handed bastard sword and add TWF with armor spikes or Improved Unarmed Strike/Superior Unarmed Strike/Snap Kick. Snap Kick is just loads of fun (it can be used after a standard attack, even a strike, and possibly AoOs).

enderlord99

2011-08-09, 09:32 AM

-snip-

a fist-2-face martial artist concept can be built mechanically as a monk, unarmed swordsage, tashalatoran psionicist, sacred fist, or enlightened fist, but *CAN'T* be a spiked chain tripper.

-snip-

don't forget archivist/psionic fist:smallcool:

Shreaver

2011-08-09, 10:58 AM

You're a charger. You need that feat slot for charging. Particularly to get both Leap Attack and Shock Trooper up and running at a fairly low ECL.

On the other hand, I can't deny that investing in some skills helps round out the character and can help with RP. What skills are you trying to focus on? There may be another way to get what you need (such as the Skilled City-Dweller ACF (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a)) and save that feat for something else.

Thanks for your reply, man! This is my third time creating a character so I'm still learning. :smallbiggrin:

As for the skills I'm focusing on, I would say that I invest significantly heavily into Concentration and Jump. Luckily these are class skills. There are other skills too, however. For example, with Able Learner and at ECL6, I can have:

Bluff x 4
Concentration x 9
Diplomacy x 4 (Want to raise bluff, know(nobility) and sense motive to 5 for bonuses)
Escape Artist x 4
Jump x 9
Knowledge (Arcana) x 1
Knowledge (Geo) x 1
Knowledge (History) x 1
Knowledge (Local) x 1
Knowledge (Nobility) x 5
Knowledge (Religion) x 1 (thinking of changing this, however)
Knowledge (the Planes) x 1
Listen x 5
Profession (Teacher) x 4
Sense Motive x 5
Speak Language x 9
Spot x 4
Tumble x 5

It's quite spread out, and I've honestly never done something like this before. There are certain skills that I just stop at 5 ranks, and there are others that I stop at 10 ranks. The rest I just keep going as far as I can, like Jump, Conc, Spot, Speak Languages and Listen.

Changing combat tactics from round-to-round isn't "RP purposes". Personal style will obviously differ, but to me "RP purposes" is telling everyone that you're the world's foremost authority on dwarven boatbuilding, or that you knew the local high priestess before she was a "virgin" and she's not nearly as chaste as everyone thinks she is, or that you can put a fleshraker dino to sleep by rubbing it's belly (although it works a lot faster if you give it a couple gallons of ale first). If you want to roleplay a more interesting character, just do so via roleplaying. You don't necessarily *have* to spend feat slots and skill ranks to make your character more interesting at the expense of reducing his combat effectiveness.

In our campaign, there aren't really any martial artists as it's a somewhat ancient thing and one of my side stories is that I intend to bring the Sublime Way back to the world and recover all weapons for Temple the Nine Swords. I figured taking a dip into Swordsage might have sense, but I'm uncertain now. Perhaps a more "RP" thing to do would be to become a Master of Nine...

Barbarian dip is more reliable, and leaves that maneuver slot open for something else.

I guess so, but the fatigue associated with rage, as well as rage interfering with concentration just bugs me. I basically wanted to charge in using tiger claw strikes and then use Diamond Mind strikes face-to-face to finish opponents off.

Stormguard Warrior synergizes better with TWF... not so much synergy with charge/pounce. The Improved Trip was just "low-hanging fruit": a reliable combat debuff that you can pickup via another level of Barbarian (skipping the useless prereq feat), which helps you delay your second stance at Warblade 4 until your IL = 5. (However, the third level stances are meh... you'll probably want to spend most of your time in Leading the Charge and Punishing Stance.) Mighty Throw does something very similar, but Improved Trip as a feat is more flexible, since it can be used on any attack, including as part of a full attack or on an AoO.

I checked both UA and CChamp, but I can't see Improved Trip as an offered feat for Lion Barbarian, Spirit or Totem.

No offense taken. You have a lot of really cool things you want to get into this build, and we're just trying to help you focus on what is really important and pare down some of the things that seem cool but don't really help. Most requests for optimization help boil down to: "I really want to do X, but I will absolutely never nuh-uh ever consider doing Y instead", followed by a lot of posts that say "X isn't nearly as cool as you think it is, you really need to consider some variation of Y". The best solution for you is probably somewhere in the middle of X and Y.

Yes, I think you are right. I believe that I might actually keep Able Learner, for example, even though I understand it makes me a less capable combatant, but I know that I probably should look at changing other things.

I think if you look at it from the standpoint of "How does this make me a better charger?" then that might help. Swordsage gives you access to some boosts that increase your mobility, some damage buffs, and some non-charging utilities. PsyWar offers some nifty gimmicks like expansion, dimension hop (via Mantled Warrior/Freedom mantle), and eventually hustle, but may require a more involved investment.

I don't plan to make a very heavy investment into other classes. I just want to take a 2 level dip and get out. At the same time, I hope for the class to scale well as I level up my primary class. This is what bothers me a little with PsyWar. Not only do certain things need more investment, some abilities of the class don't really seem as effective at later levels and I'd be stuck with them forever. I'm assuming we are discussing CPsionics, btw.

I prefer to think of it as more of a buffet of different ACFs. Whirling Frenzy (rage variant from UA) is a damage buff and an extra attack, which helps with Pounce/charging. The various totems can add bonus feats or abilities that might be difficult to get via other means: improved grab, trapfinding, etc.

Hey, Whirling Frenzy sounds pretty neat! But, I still get fatigued, don't I...? :(

You're a charger. Take War Master's Charge. If your allies don't like charging with you, then at level 20 you can afford to buy some allies who will. Consider 2 SP hires a mercenary for a day, each merc does at least +25 damage on a charge, so 10 GP = 20 mercs = up to +500 damage on a charge.

If that's not to your liking, I'd probably take Strike of Perfect Clarity over Feral Death Blow.

The reason why I didn't consider War Master's Charge was because I wasn't actually investing very far into White Raven. Guess after all this I should reconsider.

Re: replacing Stormguard Warrior.

Travel Devotion is quite nifty, but as a Warblade you usually need your swift actions for something else. (You can also get swift-action movement in a pinch via magic items like Anklets of Translocation, Chronocharm of the Horizon Walker, and Quicksilver Boots.)

On chargers, I love me some Shape Soulmeld/Open Least Chakra + Thunderstep Boots (+1d4 sonic damage, save vs. stun), but Magic of Incarnum isn't everyone's cup of tea.

Leap of the Heavens (PHBII) duplicates the effects of Leaping Dragon Stance but allows you to stay in a more charge-friendly stance. Per the Rules Compendium, you can leap over "obstacles" that would normally prevent a charge, and being able to make long jumps without a 20' run-up can come in quite handy. (Check with your DM if he considers intervening creatures as "obstacles".)

You can also keep the two-handed bastard sword and add TWF with armor spikes or Improved Unarmed Strike/Superior Unarmed Strike/Snap Kick. Snap Kick is just loads of fun (it can be used after a standard attack, even a strike, and possibly AoOs).

Leap of the Heavens seems like a REALLY good idea! =D

Greenish

2011-08-09, 11:02 AM

I checked both UA and CChamp, but I can't see Improved Trip as an offered feat for Lion Barbarian, Spirit or Totem.It's UA's wolf totem, but since that's a variant class while CC's spirit totems are alternative class features, you can have both.

Also, 5 ranks in Balance prevents you from being flat footed while balancing.

[Edit]: Fatigue from Rage (or Whirling Frenzy) only lasts 'till the end of the encounter, and most encounters are over before you run out of Rage even if you raged on the first round.

Darrin

2011-08-09, 11:29 AM

It's UA's wolf totem, but since that's a variant class while CC's spirit totems are alternative class features, you can have both.

Spirit Lion totem trades Fast Movement for Pounce. All of the UA totem variants in UA give up Fast Movement except for two: Horse and Wolf. You can trade Uncanny Dodge for either Improved Trip (Wolf) or Run (Horse). But I have yet to see any verifyable evidence that anyone has ever used the Run feat in an actual game.

Hey, Whirling Frenzy sounds pretty neat! But, I still get fatigued, don't I...? :(

To get rid of fatigue:

Icewild Lichen Paste. 50 GP, Secrets of Sarlona p. 138.

Potion of lesser restoration. 100 GP (as brewed by a Paladin).

Wand of ray of resurgence. 750 GP (spell from Lost Empires of Faerun p. 33).

Also:

Boots of the Unending Journey (4000 GP, MIC p. 79), but the immunity to fatigue/exhaustion is a relic power. This requires you worship Farlaughn and either sacrifice a spell or blow a feat on True Believer.

Sphere of Awakening (1800 GP, MIC p. 186). 1/day awakens all allies within 60', ends all fatigue/exhaustion effects, and renders all allies immune to fatigue, exhaustion and sleep effects for 10 minutes. Nothing in the description to say it can't be used when everyone is awake.

Heavy Legs graft (6000 GP, Faiths of Eberron p. 158). Sacrifice -2 HP, ignore fatigue and reduce exhaustion to fatigue.

Talisman of Undying Fortitude (8000 GP, MIC p. 188) is a bit more pricy, but functions 2/day and renders you immune to poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, critical hits, nonlethal damage, physical ability damage, ability drain, energy drain, fatigue, exhaustion, massive damage checks, and any effect that requires a Fortitude save. Only lasts for 3 rounds, though.

Armor of the Unending Hunt (21500 GP, Complate Warrior p. 134). Mithral chainmail +2, complete immunity to fatigue and exhaustion.

Shreaver

2011-08-09, 03:24 PM

Lol, so this is almost like a Wolf Totem Lion Spirit Totem Barbarian.

Greenish

2011-08-09, 06:01 PM

Lol, so this is almost like a Wolf Totem Lion Spirit Totem Barbarian.Say your totem animal is actually fleshraker. They're known for pouncing and tripping (and grappling and poisoning, for that matter).

Shreaver

2011-08-09, 06:49 PM

Hrm... Tripping... I guess that could be amazingly useful. At the moment, there's a Warmage and Druid in the party as well.

Tripping could be good. On the off hand, there's PsyWar... Seems like a lot more people see wisdom in going with Barbarian over PsyWar.

Hrm..

EDIT: Is there somewhere I can read about this Fleshraker Totem?

Greenish

2011-08-09, 07:44 PM

Is there somewhere I can read about this Fleshraker Totem?I was joking. You take Spirit Lion Totem and Wolf Totem, get Pounce and Imp. Trip, that's it. It's just the signature move of Fleshraker.

Shreaver

2011-08-09, 07:56 PM

I was joking. You take Spirit Lion Totem and Wolf Totem, get Pounce and Imp. Trip, that's it. It's just the signature move of Fleshraker.

Bah! You've done fooled me, haha. :smalltongue:

It's cool, though. You get those two things in a single Barb dip?

Greenish

2011-08-09, 08:04 PM

It's cool, though. You get those two things in a single Barb dip?Needs two levels. First level gets Rage (or Whirling Frenzy) and Pounce, second gets Imp. Trip.

Shreaver

2011-08-09, 08:13 PM

Needs two levels. First level gets Rage (or Whirling Frenzy) and Pounce, second gets Imp. Trip.

Hrm... Okay, I should work this out now and preview the feat progression.

EDIT: Maybe I can talk my DM into helping me design my own kind of Totem Barbarian... Like a Rhino Totem Barb to get Improved Bull Rush instead of Improved Trip.

This way, I would be looking at a feat progression like:

Level 1 – Able Learner
Level 3 – Power Attack
Level 4 – Whirling Frenzy, Pounce (Barb class feat)
Level 5 – Improved Bull Rush (Barb class feat)
Level 6 – Shock Trooper
Level 9 – Leap Attack

I think I'd be able to live with getting Leap Attack at level 9.

And a likely solution to Barb fatigue is Iron Heart Surge... Your thoughts?

Shreaver

2011-08-12, 09:39 AM

Hey guys,

Just wanted to thank you all once again for helping me out. I managed to speak to my DM about a lot of the suggestions you all gave to me. At first he wasn't too keen on the idea of dipping into Barbarian because he wasn't sure about the fluidity of an Illumian character going in that direction for the campaign. Then, we talked about it for a bit and he thinks he might be able to make it make sense in the game.

Additionally, he said that instead of Improved Trip, I could get Improved Bull Rush... Epic for me!

He said that Psychic Warrior would have been cool, but I don't think it will scale well.

Anyway, thanks heaps! Will let you all know how it turns out!