So Lockdown Trippers don't Work?

[ArcanistSupreme]

I was always a big fan of lockdown builds that could keep opponents in a constant state of proneness. That is, until I came across the little gem on page 10 of Expedition to Castle Ravenloft that describes the tactics of worgs. To summarize, it says that a prone character that provokes an AoO by trying to stand can't be tripped by that AoO because he/she/it is already prone when the attack occurs.

Unless I'm mistaken, doesn't this largely defeat the purpose of tripper builds? Or is there a way around this that I'm not aware of?

[warmachine]

Find a DM who isn't a pedantic, details-oriented rules lawyer.

[Tebryn]

I was always a big fan of lockdown builds that could keep opponents in a constant state of proneness. That is, until I came across the little gem on page 10 of Expedition to Castle Ravenloft that describes the tactics of worgs. To summarize, it says that a prone character that provokes an AoO by trying to stand can't be tripped by that AoO because he/she/it is already prone when the attack occurs.

Unless I'm mistaken, doesn't this largely defeat the purpose of tripper builds? Or is there a way around this that I'm not aware of?


Find a DM who isn't a pedantic, details-oriented rules lawyer.

Or you know....a smart enemy could just take the -2 to hit and attack you from the ground? It's not -really- that big a deal if you just don't keep trying to stand up time and time again when it's clear it's not going to work.

[Eldariel]

I was always a big fan of lockdown builds that could keep opponents in a constant state of proneness. That is, until I came across the little gem on page 10 of Expedition to Castle Ravenloft that describes the tactics of worgs. To summarize, it says that a prone character that provokes an AoO by trying to stand can't be tripped by that AoO because he/she/it is already prone when the attack occurs.

Unless I'm mistaken, doesn't this largely defeat the purpose of tripper builds? Or is there a way around this that I'm not aware of?

It does not. You get the trip and when they pick up, free attack and if they approach you, another trip (or if they do anything else). And if they just get up, you can trip them again. You can also AoO them for Stand Still (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#standStill) which obviously solves any problems.

But yeah, the sequence isn't "Trip, they try to get up, trip again"; it's "Trip, they try to get up, whack 'em, if they do anything else, Trip again; if not, Trip on your own turn". This is why reach weapons are so damn potent, incidentally. You can completely negate multiple melee opponents by just pinning them on their backs unless they have reach weapons too.

Optimally you want to be Large to trip them from 20' away; if they get up and 5' step towards you, they still can't touch you unless they're wielding a reach weapon themselves and are Large. Though if you have Thicket of Blades, Stand Still or company that's not necessary to keep them still (still preferable, of course; the larger area you threaten, the more miserable you make your opponents' lives).


Or you know....a smart enemy could just take the -2 to hit and attack you from the ground? It's not -really- that big a deal if you just don't keep trying to stand up time and time again when it's clear it's not going to work.

-4 and it requires them to be in reach of you. Crawling 5' is a move action that provokes so that's not a very efficient way to get in range...

[Urpriest]

Yeah, very few trippers assume that you can trip someone who's still trying to get up. They work without that assumption.

[shadow_archmagi]

Yeah, the order of operations is:

1. Tripper's Turn: Trip
2. Tripped's Turn: Expend move action to stand
3. Tripper gets AoO
4. Tripped can only take a five foot step, since they just burnt their move action on standing. They can't attack either, because they are too far away
5. Tripper's Turn: Trip

Also, being prone is a -4

[Tebryn]

-4 and it requires them to be in reach of you. Crawling 5' is a move action that provokes so that's not a very efficient way to get in range...

Missed it by two, still not awful. Not only that, but most of the time you're not fighting medium sized creatures so reach isn't particularly an issue either. Also considering plenty of monsters have spell like abilities making range another more or less moot point. If you're fighting nothing but medium sized creatures with no ranged capability or spell casting ya, you're right. Otherwise...there's no need to crawl five feet.

[Runestar]

The purpose of tripping is to stymie the opponent's mobility and prevent them from moving too freely around the battlefield and harassing the rest of the party. For example, after he spends a move action getting up, he can only either move or attack, so he cannot move to the mage and attack at the same time. Or if he chooses to attack you instead, you have just indirectly tanked for the mage successfully. Either way, it is a win-win scenario.:smallsmile:

[faceroll]

When dealing with trip, tumble is your friend. DC15 to move through threatened areas without provoking (DC25 to move at full speed). DC35 to stand up as a free action.

[Tebryn]

The purpose of tripping is to stymie the opponent's mobility and prevent them from moving too freely around the battlefield and harassing the rest of the party. For example, after he spends a move action getting up, he can only either move or attack, so he cannot move to the mage and attack at the same time. Or if he chooses to attack you instead, you have just indirectly tanked for the mage successfully. Either way, it is a win-win scenario.:smallsmile:

Except again, if they have range in any measure. It's really just not that good a tactic.

[Greenish]

DC35 to stand up as a free action.I'm surprised they didn't change that to swift action with the OA update. Or was the update before swift actions were introduced?

[Edit]:
Except again, if they have range in any measure. It's really just not that good a tactic.Ranged weapons provoke. Casting provokes (if you have Mage Slayer). SLAs provoke and many critters with them don't have high ranks in Concentration.

[Urpriest]

I'm surprised they didn't change that to swift action with the OA update. Or was the update before swift actions were introduced?

[Edit]: Ranged weapons provoke. Casting provokes (if you have Mage Slayer).

The update doesn't even remember that Animal Friendship was changed to an Animal Companion Class Feature. I wouldn't be surprised if there were more oversights.

[Eldariel]

Missed it by two, still not awful. Not only that, but most of the time you're not fighting medium sized creatures so reach isn't particularly an issue either.

If you're Enlarged, your opponent needs be a Gargantuan Biped or a Colossal Quadroped to be able to reach you without moving. Huge and Large creatures never get an attack edgewise; 20' reach is quite the issue indeed.


Also considering plenty of monsters have spell like abilities making range another more or less moot point. If you're fighting nothing but medium sized creatures with no ranged capability or spell casting ya, you're right. Otherwise...there's no need to crawl five feet.

Longbows cannot be used prone. Either way, using one provokes an AOO since they're in threatened square. Not to mention vast majority of martial types are much worse with ranged weapons than melee weapons. There's absolutely nothing you can do against spellcasters or spell-like users anyway other than ready action (Trip at least ensures they will be in reach when they try to cast) unless you have Mage Slayer, which makes both moot points as you get AoO regardless and if you somehow got to trip your opponent, you can probably land the AoO and disrupt the casting too.

Either way, the point of Tripping against non-melee is to ensure you can take your AoOs for whatever they try to do and in general, remodel their face. Against melee, it's to ensure they don't get to attack anyone. It works admirably against both.


Yes, you can't solve every problem this way; Supernatural abilities, high reach melee (Larges with Reach Weapons, Gargantuans or biggers period), Quickened spells and such still screw you over. It's still a large number of opponent types a competent Tripper-build can completely wreck though.

[Greenish]

The update doesn't even remember that Animal Friendship was changed to an Animal Companion Class Feature. I wouldn't be surprised if there were more oversights.Hmm, it made it's way into Rules Compendium as a free action. Oh well.

[Hazzardevil]

In pathfinder, I have started building a Lockdown Tripper, mine is slightly different. It goes pure Fighter for about 6 levels and since it has the feats, not only will it drip, once said victim has been tripped you start disarming them as well.
My build simply uses combat maneuvers to trip them, disarm them so the rest of the party can take their stuff and then sunder their armour.
This leaves them in a situation where they are losing equipment and when they start moving away I can simply force them back until they get stuck on something.
The beauty of Lockdown trippers is that they are constantly taking damage and can't escape.

[Essence_of_War]

I'm pretty sure that by RAW, armor cannot be sundered.

Shields/weapons/held items are vulnerable to sundering though.

[TehLivingDeath]

Yes, you can't solve every problem this way; Supernatural abilities, high reach melee (Larges with Reach Weapons, Gargantuans or biggers period), Quickened spells and such still screw you over. It's still a large number of opponent types a competent Tripper-build can completely wreck though.

Against bigger opponents there are still some ways to get you even more reach, like that deformity in BoVD. I'm sure there are other ways I don't know about. Though it's a little funny picturing an 8 feet tall individual tripping a Colossal dragon with a wooden polearm.

Anyway, if tripping is not something you want to do, a Crusader with Thicket of Blades and Stand Still takes Lockdown to a whole new level.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Don't forget Knock-Back (RoS), so they end up prone and far away, thus beginning a vicious cycle:

1. Opponent moves up to or charges tripper character, gets tripped and knocked back.
1a. Opponent get Dungeoncrashed against a wall for uber damage.
1b. Tripper full attacks prone guy, uses Knock-Back on every attack, see 1a.
2. Opponent gets up from prone, provokes AoO (see 1a); move up to tripper character, go to step 1.

[Volos]

Yeah, the order of operations is:

1. Tripper's Turn: Trip
2. Tripped's Turn: Expend move action to stand
3. Tripper gets AoO
4. Tripped can only take a five foot step, since they just burnt their move action on standing. They can't attack either, because they are too far away
5. Tripper's Turn: Trip

Also, being prone is a -4

You forgot something sir.

2 1/2. & 5 1/2. Tripper gets free attack due to Improved Trip.

[Eldariel]

Against bigger opponents there are still some ways to get you even more reach, like that deformity in BoVD. I'm sure there are other ways I don't know about. Though it's a little funny picturing an 8 feet tall individual tripping a Colossal dragon with a wooden polearm.

Anyway, if tripping is not something you want to do, a Crusader with Thicket of Blades and Stand Still takes Lockdown to a whole new level.

The sizes are hardcapped regardless of your reach; you can't trip Gargantuans or Colossals with any number of Willing Deformities, Aberrant Bloods and company. You need another size increase, such as Expansion.

[Greenish]

I'm pretty sure that by RAW, armor cannot be sundered.In 3.5, no. In PF, I think they can.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Oh. :smallredface: Well, now I know how trippers work. And knowing is half the battle.

[JKTrickster]

Everyone's also forgetting Defensive Sweep and other feats that grant you AoOs. The point of a lockdown build is to have the enemy take an AoO for anything.

You move? Attack of Opportunity.
You Attack? Attack of Opportunity.
You stand there and do nothing? Attack of Opportunity!

General a fun thing to do when you're bored and want to shout something whenever the DM tries to deal with you :smallwink:

[Psyren]

4. Tripped can only take a five foot step, since they just burnt their move action on standing.

Point of order: the tripped character can still use his standard action to move away after using his move action to stand. The tripper needs either Stand Still to really hold them in place, or Combat Reflexes so you can attempt to trip again when they try to leave the threatened square.

Also, what Volos said.

[Greenish]

Point of order: the tripped character can still use his standard action to move away after using his move action to stand.[Y]ou can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round when you move any distance. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#take5FootStep)

You can take 5-ft. step if you used your move action for something else.

[Person_Man]

There's a feat in Sandstorm called Sand Snare. If you Trip your enemy in sand/loose dirt/ash/dust, then your opponent must use a Full Round Action to stand on the round after being Tripped.

Anywho, while Trip is handy, it's not reliable. There are a ton of enemies who are just too big/strong, and several backdoor ways to avoid it for Skill Monkey-isjh enemies. If you're truly interested in locking down, then you're going to want to look into Daze effects.

[Psyren]

[Y]ou can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round when you move any distance. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#take5FootStep)

You can take 5-ft. step if you used your move action for something else.

I didn't say anything about a 5-foot step. I was referring to the following:

"You can always take a move action in place of a standard action." (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#actionTypes)

So you can stand up and move away in one turn, provided you give up your standard.

[Greenish]

I didn't say anything about a 5-foot step. I was referring to the following:

"You can always take a move action in place of a standard action." (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#actionTypes)

So you can stand up and move away in one turn, provided you give up your standard.Ah, right, I misunderstood.

[Psyren]

And technically, you can stand up and 5-foot step too (using your standard for something else) because you haven't "moved any distance."

[Greenish]

And technically, you can stand up and 5-foot step too (using your standard for something else) because you haven't "moved any distance."That was my point. :smallamused:

[BadJuJu]

There's a feat in Sandstorm called Sand Snare. If you Trip your enemy in sand/loose dirt/ash/dust, then your opponent must use a Full Round Action to stand on the round after being Tripped.

Anywho, while Trip is handy, it's not reliable. There are a ton of enemies who are just too big/strong, and several backdoor ways to avoid it for Skill Monkey-isjh enemies. If you're truly interested in locking down, then you're going to want to look into Daze effects.

What are some reliable ways to daze creatures?

[Big Fau]

What are some reliable ways to daze creatures?

Boomerang Daze and the Aptitude weapon quality. Daze them on every single attack!



And I was under the impression that a Lockdown Tripper used Disarm attempts whenever feasible to prevent further actions.

[Person_Man]

What are some reliable ways to daze creatures?

Boomerang Daze feat, Ironsoul Forgemaster PrC, Shield Slam feat, Anvil of Thunder feat, Killoren Smite feat, Dragonmark Smite feat, Devoted Inquisitor feat, Cabinet Trickster PrC, Dire Flail Smash feat, Arcane Focus soulmeld, Psionic Focus soulmeld, Incarnum Blast invocation, Dahlver-Nar vestige, Scion of Dantalion PrC, Dazing Strike maneuver, and a few magic items and spells I can't remember.

Boomerang Daze is the most reliable method. Ironsoul Forgemaster is a close second. Arcane Focus can be used with Swift Action spells, which is very efficient. But I counter-intuitively suggest that you avoid any combo which is "always on" because it leads to DM metagaming to counter your always on combo. Instead, you're better off with having a variety of different combos (ie, any Tier 3 or better class with a variety of resources), and rotating them.