Radiant Servant of Lathander Help

[mudz78]

Hi,

I'm about to start in a Shackled City campaign (no spoilers please) and have decided to roll a Radiant Servant (of Lathander).

HUMAN
Cleric 14/Radiant Servant 5/Contemplative 1

28 point build.

ALLOWED SOURCE
All the Completes (Psionics banned)
Book of Nine Swords
Spell Compendium
PH
PH II
Players Guide to Faerun
FR Campaign Setting

STATS
STR: 12
DEX: 8
CON: 12
INT: 14
WIS: 16
CHA: 12

One level up will go into STR (for Power attack), rest into Wisdom.

FEATS
Extend Spell
Persistent Spell
Extra Turning
Extra Turning
Power Attack (or drop STR to 10, WIS to 15, bumping both CON & CHA to 14's, and take Quicken Spell. All level up into WIS in this case)
Combat Casting

Free Empower and Extra Turning will come from Radiant Servant and Contemplative (Undeath Domain) respectively.

SKILLS
Max. Diplomacy, Concentration, Spellcraft, Knowledge (Religion)
5 ranks in Heal
16 ranks in Sense Motive

I get the feeling that I might regret pushing my INT so high, and i am unsure as to how important STR is on a build like this.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Regards.

[Greenish]

Undead domain on Radiant Servant?

Anyway, Domain Spontaneity from PHBII is neat for cashing in on the free Empower.

[mudz78]

Undead domain on Radiant Servant?

Know your enemy? :)

Honestly, of all the clerics in all the Realms, that have ever been, one of them surely had Undeath as a domain.



Anyway, Domain Spontaneity from PHBII is neat for cashing in on the free Empower.
Yes, that does actually look quite nice. I guess that means i could cast Heal as a spontaneous spell should i so choose. Would feel a little wasteful as i already get spontanteous cures, maybe better off choosing another domain...but Heal...

Any comments on the stat spread?

I now k ow that party looks like:
Monk
Cleric archer
Swordsage
Duskblade
Some scout/cleric/ranger/rogue thing

And me. So at this stage the party has no ppl person as nobody is investing ranks in that direction, so i would really like to keep the ranks in Dip. at the very least.

[Greenish]

Honestly, of all the clerics in all the Realms, that have ever been, one of them surely had Undeath as a domain.:smallconfused:



Yes, that does actually look quite nice. I guess that means i could cast Heal as a spontaneous spell should i so choose. Would feel a little wasteful as i already get spontanteous cures, maybe better off choosing another domain...but Heal...You have to cast the healing spells as domain spells to benefit from the auto-empower feature of Radiant Servant.


Any comments on the stat spread?Honestly, decent Wis and you'll be okay.


And me. So at this stage the party has no ppl person as nobody is investing ranks in that direction, so i would really like to keep the ranks in Dip. at the very least.Monk has Diplomacy, Sense Motive, skill points to burn and not much else to contribute.

[mudz78]

:smallconfused:

Is there something that I am missing here? I mean, am I breaching RAW by taking Undeath as my bonus Domain from the Contemplative PrC?

Bonus Domain: Upon adopting the contemplative
class, and again at 6th level, a character gains access to a
bonus domain of her choice. The character can choose any
domain made available by her deity or alignment. The character
gains the granted power associated with the domain
she chooses, and can select the spells in that domain as her
daily domain spells.
-Complete Divine pg 32 (emphasis mine)

Obviously I don't worship either of the Realms Gods that cover this Domain (Kiaransalee, Velsharoon), and I wasn't sure where i find out what the Domain alignment is. Is it based on the Gods alignment?



You have to cast the healing spells as domain spells to benefit from the auto-empower feature of Radiant Servant.


Hmm, I was refering to Domain Spontaneity and choosing the Heal Domain as my Spontaneous Domain for use with this feat. Which would mean I could cast Heal as a spontaneous spell. I can't normally do that right? I mean I thought regular clerics could only spontaneusly cast cure spells.

You're saying though that spontaneously cast cure spells do not benefit from Radiant Cleric's Empower? Which sounds fair enough, and is also how I was interpreting the rules anyway.

Excuse my ignorance if I have the facts wrong, I am really quite a noob at many aspects of D&D.



Honestly, decent Wis and you'll be okay.

Ok, so I will shoot for 20 base at lvl 20 as a leveling guide.

What about STR, is it worth going for power attack on a build like this. I *really* haven't played that much D&D, and never played any build like this one.

If I thought I could get away with it, I would love to drop my STR to 10, but it feels like that might hurt a bit on my to-hit.



Monk has Diplomacy, Sense Motive, skill points to burn and not much else to contribute.

I might give the Monk a phone call, I'm not sure what exactly he is doing with his ranks, but I know it isn't either of those skills.

What would you do? 28 point build, books already listed, we need a healer, and I want a very decent healer that is also interesting to play (tricks up the sleeve).

All tweaking aside, I am sure I won't be too gimp, and I have a great bunch of friends to play with when we start, so it should all work out for the best :)

Thanks for taking the time to help out, much appreicated.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

For your Contemplative bonus domain, your choices are those offered by your deity, or the Good, Evil, Law, or Chaos domains depending on your character's alignment. Undeath is not included in any of those, so you can't get it.

For the free Empower, you have to cast a spell from the Healing domain from a domain spell slot. This particular character can't even get the Healing domain, but you can use the PH2 ACF to prepare Cure spells in your domain spell slots, which as long as they appear on the Healing domain list will be Empowered for free.

Why use Cleric 14 in the build when Morninglord is in PGtF? Where is Divine Metamagic: Persist? Why have you wasted a feat on Combat Casting?!

[Greenish]

Is there something that I am missing here? I mean, am I breaching RAW by taking Undeath as my bonus Domain from the Contemplative PrC?What BF said. I was just wondering what in earth did you mean with that line I quoted: "Honestly, of all the clerics in all the Realms, that have ever been, one of them surely had Undeath as a domain." What has that to do with anything?


Which would mean I could cast Heal as a spontaneous spell. I can't normally do that right? I mean I thought regular clerics could only spontaneusly cast cure spells.Yes.


You're saying though that spontaneously cast cure spells do not benefit from Radiant Cleric's Empower?They wouldn't, unless you have the domain spontaneity, because then you convert your spells into domain spells, making them subject to the class feature.


What about STR, is it worth going for power attack on a build like this. I *really* haven't played that much D&D, and never played any build like this one.You want to whack enemies, you want power attack. Simple.


If I thought I could get away with it, I would love to drop my STR to 10, but it feels like that might hurt a bit on my to-hit.Don't ditch it. Your stat priority is something like wis>str>con>cha>int=dex.


What would you do? 28 point build, books already listed, we need a healer, and I want a very decent healer that is also interesting to play (tricks up the sleeve).Healing in combat should be the last option, when you absolutely have to. Otherwise, your actions are more valuably used to kill or hinder the foes.

[mudz78]

Man,

The DM suggested Lathander as an alternative to Pelor (as we are FR based), I guess I sort of missed the bit where both my Clerical Domains had to be Domains of the God I worshipped :/

The devil certainly has proven to be in the details. Overall this character is turning out to be a big chore.

Any good suggestions for a fun, effective healer build based on my permitted source material?

[Greenish]

Any good suggestions for a fun, effective healer build based on my permitted source material?Cleric/Radiant Servant? :smalltongue:

What level are you starting? You could go RKV.

[mudz78]

use the PH2 ACF

ACF's are not permitted.



Why use Cleric 14 in the build when Morninglord is in PGtF?

Honestly, i have had much time to look through the realms books is about the only reason. And I am not familiar enough with the material to know these options off the top of my head.



Where is Divine Metamagic: Persist? Why have you wasted a feat on Combat Casting?!

Are you referring to DMM and Persistent Spell?

[Greenish]

Are you referring to DMM and Persistent Spell?That's what he said.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

ACF's are not permitted.

Honestly, i have had much time to look through the realms books is about the only reason. And I am not familiar enough with the material to know these options off the top of my head.

Are you referring to DMM and Persistent Spell?

Domain Spontaneity from PH2 is the ACF I was referring to.

You have Persistent Spell listed on your feats, but I don't see Divine Metamagic on there. Combat Casting is not worth spending a feat on unless it's a prerequisite for a prestige class or epic feat you plan on taking.

[Saintheart]

For your Contemplative bonus domain, your choices are those offered by your deity, or the Good, Evil, Law, or Chaos domains depending on your character's alignment. Undeath is not included in any of those, so you can't get it.

Just on that, is there a list of "Good" domains? I'm eyeing off Contemplative in another campaign, but I can't find a list of domains provided by "good", if that makes sense...


Man,

The DM suggested Lathander as an alternative to Pelor (as we are FR based), I guess I sort of missed the bit where both my Clerical Domains had to be Domains of the God I worshipped :/

The devil certainly has proven to be in the details. Overall this character is turning out to be a big chore.

Any good suggestions for a fun, effective healer build based on my permitted source material?

Honestly, you could just about go straight Cleric 20 if you want relative simplicity. If you've got the Completes, Complete Champion is a very nice source of stuff. Let's leave aside the whole DMM abuse at this stage...

For a heal-focused cleric, the following feats are fun:
--Protection Devotion: As immediate action (1/day +1 for every 3 turn undead attempts expended), activate a protective aura that grants +4 sacred bonus to AC to all allies within 30 feet lasting for 1 minute.

--Touch of Healing: As long as you have a healing spell of 2nd level or higher available to cast, you can spend a standard action to touch a target creature and heal 3 points of damage per level of the highest-level conjuration (healing) spell you have available to cast. You can use this ability only on a target that has been reduced to one-half or fewer of its total hit points. The effect ends once you've healed the subject up to half its normal maximum hit points. This ability has no effect on creatures that can't be healed by cure spells. As a secondary benefit, you gain a +1 competence bonus to your caster level when casting conjuration (healing) spells.

--Sacred Healing: You can spend a turn attempt as a full-round action to grant fast healing 3 to all living creatures within a 60-ft. burst. The fast healing lasts for a number of rounds equal to 1 + your Cha modifier (minimum 1 round).

--Imbued Healing: When you cast a 1st-level or higher Conjuration (Healing) spell, you confer a carrier effect on the subject at your choice of either DR 3/evil (lasting 1 minute per level of the healing spell cast) or 8 temporary hitpoints (lasting 1 hour).

Most of these are from Complete Champion, though some will be in Complete Divine as well. After that, it's a matter of picking up PrCs that don't lose caster levels but add stuff. In that, Contemplative probably nets you the widest variety of available domains, but there are others that also pick up more domains: Divine Oracle is a lovely domain for the utility cleric, since it makes divination spells more effective and some of the better ones (Commune, Scrying, Divination) domain spells under the Oracle domain. Sacred Inquisitor (IIRC, AFB) gets you the Inquisition domain, again with some fun stuff like Zone of Truth and whatnot as domain spells. And so on.

[tyckspoon]

Just on that, is there a list of "Good" domains? I'm eyeing off Contemplative in another campaign, but I can't find a list of domains provided by "good", if that makes sense...


Just the Good domain itself, and anything that has been specifically said to be equivalent to it if any (I'm not aware of any.)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Just on that, is there a list of "Good" domains? I'm eyeing off Contemplative in another campaign, but I can't find a list of domains provided by "good", if that makes sense...

You're (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#goodDomain) not (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#evilDomain) getting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#lawDomain) it. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#chaosDomain)

[mudz78]

but I don't see Divine Metamagic on there.

There's a good reason for that...I forgot to list it.

[TwylyghT]

The closest I can think to get you sticking to FR, is Glautru, who offers Healing and Death domains, but then you couldn't get Sun domain, and it would be a true neutral deity lol. FR just doesn't have a direct Pelor analog.

On the other hand, since your DM suggested Lathander to you in the first place, you could simply ask if you could take Healing domain anyway pointing out the lack of options.

[mudz78]

Cleric/Radiant Servant? :smalltongue:
.....:smallamused:


What level are you starting? You could go RKV.

Starting at level 1. First session of the campaign is tomorrow night.

*Sigh* I wish I had time to flick through all the books, but the simple fact is I don't.

I'm not really keen on the idea of a level 20 cleric, not with so many alternatives available in this campaign. It would be nice to play something a little...different...sadly my experience in character creation is letting me down considerably.

Any cookie-cutter builds out there that fit the criteria I have laid out?

edit: And what is an RKV?

[tyckspoon]

edit: And what is an RKV?

Ruby Knight Vindicator, the divine casting/initiator dual-progression class in Tome of Battle. Usually entered as Crusader/Cleric, gets some really neat class features in addition to progressing casting and maneuvers. Crusader is great for durability and low-level healing while still personally participating in a fight, Cleric still lets you drop out a higher-level Cure X Wounds/Heal if you really have to.

[mudz78]

Ruby Knight Vindicator, the divine casting/initiator dual-progression class in Tome of Battle. Usually entered as Crusader/Cleric, gets some really neat class features in addition to progressing casting and maneuvers. Crusader is great for durability and low-level healing while still personally participating in a fight, Cleric still lets you drop out a higher-level Cure X Wounds/Heal if you really have to.

Ok, ty. I think the party will benefit from a character that can be an effective healer at all times, not in the "if you really have to" type situations. Having said that, I have not looked at that Prestige so I will try and give it a read later.

We really need an effective healer, the part where it's different/fun/interesting is all me ;)

BTW the party now looks like this:

Rogue - DPS/Trap Monkey
Fighter/Cleric/Hammer of Moradin - DPS
Monk - DPS
Ranger/Cleric - Ranged DPS/Healer
Swordsage - DPS and w/e they do (iono really)
Me -Healer/Buffer/(DPS?)

Thanks to everyone for your contributions so far. If I can't get a build sorted tonight it'll be straight Cleric for me.

[Saintheart]

.....:smallamused:

Starting at level 1. First session of the campaign is tomorrow night.

*Sigh* I wish I had time to flick through all the books, but the simple fact is I don't.

I'm not really keen on the idea of a level 20 cleric, not with so many alternatives available in this campaign. It would be nice to play something a little...different...sadly my experience in character creation is letting me down considerably.

Any cookie-cutter builds out there that fit the criteria I have laid out?

Well, you could take a look at Reply #8 of The Cleric Handbook. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0) It's not fine tuned to every situation, but it's a pretty good overview of the different stuff a cleric can do.


EDIT: On RKV, IMHHHO the one drawback to the class is that it does lose you caster levels, which (IMHO) should be avoided at all costs by anyone who wants to cast spells. 3.5 is basically Caster Edition, especially when you master the possibilities of the Spell Compendium, so if you're going to lose casting levels it had better be worth it. :smallsmile:

[Greenish]

Ok, ty. I think the party will benefit from a character that can be an effective healer at all times, not in the "if you really have to" type situations.Crusader can heal all the time. Not terribly much, but you'll also be hurting the enemy, and you can't run out of healing.

Cleric is for when you need a big heal.

But D&D isn't MMORPG. There's no "healer" who just sits back and "heals all the time".

[Saintheart]

I know I'm spamming posts, but I notice the party's not short on clerics anyway; have you considered druid?

[Luckmann]

DPS

Oh god. Am I supposed to laugh or cry? :smallsigh:

[Greenish]

Oh god. Am I supposed to laugh or cry? :smallsigh:DPR/6=DPS. Easy peasy.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

We really need an effective healer, the part where it's different/fun/interesting is all me ;)
No, you don't.


BTW the party now looks like this:

Rogue - DPS/Trap Monkey
Fighter/Cleric/Hammer of Moradin - DPS
Monk - DPS
Ranger/Cleric - Ranged DPS/Healer
Swordsage - DPS and w/e they do (iono really)
Me -Healer/Buffer/(DPS?)
D&D is not WoW, and if the rest of your group has this same outlook then none of you are ready to play characters of this level.

There is no such thing as a "DPS" role in this game. There are some classes that are so weak and limited in their capabilities that all they can be 'good at' is dealing damage, and even then some of them aren't even good at that (Monk). Characters who are dedicated damage dealers are the ones who get told, "I've handled this encounter, go chop them up for me." They're sidekicks. The characters who carry the party are the ones who outright disable opponents without dealing any damage at all, when opponents aren't capable of fighting back you don't need a dedicated healer, and even the most pitiful amount of "DPS" is enough to kill everything. Even then, most of those carries who disabled the opponents are also capable of dealing just as much damage as a character who's entirely dedicated to that task, further undermining the value of those weaker characters.

The Batman Wizard Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104002) teaches principles and strategies for the shortest road to victory.

The Tier System For Classes (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0) outlines which classes are most likely to be the ones carrying the party, and which classes are most likely to feel like undervalued sidekicks.

[Greenish]

D&D is not WoW, and if the rest of your group has this same outlook then none of you are ready to play characters of this level.They start at 1st level. :smallconfused:

[Ankhman]

so you aim to become a healer/buffer in that campaign?

go cleric5/radiant servant10/morning lord 5
- you want to whack things? go with the spell 'righteous might' and go DMM cheese and become codzilla - but beware your fiend dispel magic
- rather stand back and shoot and buff? take the zen archery feat and snipe away

what are all those extra turn-attempts for when you're not using DMM cheese? for this campaign you don't need them, you're okay with your standard turning ..

[mudz78]

so you aim to become a healer/buffer in that campaign?

go cleric5/radiant servant10/morning lord 5
- you want to whack things? go with the spell 'righteous might' and go DMM cheese and become codzilla - but beware your fiend dispel magic

Sounds right up my alley.

Yes, I would like to heal and buff and mix it up with a bit of melee (aka DPS).

I suppose if I get dispelled, I still have CC/DC casting and healing.



what are all those extra turn-attempts for when you're not using DMM cheese? for this campaign you don't need them, you're okay with your standard turning ..

Well, I forgot to put DMM in my post, but it was in the spreadsheet, I assure you :).

[Telonius]

They start at 1st level. :smallconfused:

... and, they're playing Shackled City. Unless the DM has made a whole bunch of alterations to the campaign as-written, even a Monk won't have much of a problem hitting his enemies. It was written just as 3.0 changed over to 3.5, and the myriad balance problems of 3.X hadn't yet become totally apparent to everybody. As-written, the bad guys really aren't that tough. Horrible builds and nonsensical spell lists abound. I'm currently running this campaign for my players right now, and needed to do a full re-build of 95% of the bad guys to even have them last a few rounds of combat. (The group is medium-op).

[mudz78]

No, you don't.


D&D is not WoW, and if the rest of your group has this same outlook then none of you are ready to play characters of this level.


Gees, that's a bit over the top isn't it? I want to hang out and have some fun with my friends. If we suck, then who cares? I know we don't. We'll just laugh about it. No build is going to save you from sucking if you just plain suck. And honestly, we're level 1, what are we going to be doing, killing Kobolds and Giant Rats? All I want is some advice about a respectable build path for 3.5. IF I'm dead by level 4 then i'll roll another character.

I don't play RPG's that often and we have, what i consider to be, a lot of source material for character creation. I was hoping that i could get some good advice that would save me just randomly grabbing some class out of the book and saying "yep, that's me". I took more time than I really had spare to give it a shot myself and I muffed it up royally. Now it looks like I am going to be all about Cleric5/Radiant Servant10/Morning Lord 5, simply because it has been the most straight forward suggestion offered (well there's a couple of others, but this one has taken my fancy).



There is no such thing as a "DPS" role in this game. There are some classes that are so weak and limited in their capabilities that all they can be 'good at' is dealing damage, and even then some of them aren't even good at that (Monk). Characters who are dedicated damage dealers are the ones who get told, "I've handled this encounter, go chop them up for me." They're sidekicks. The characters who carry the party are the ones who outright disable opponents without dealing any damage at all, when opponents aren't capable of fighting back you don't need a dedicated healer, and even the most pitiful amount of "DPS" is enough to kill everything. Even then, most of those carries who disabled the opponents are also capable of dealing just as much damage as a character who's entirely dedicated to that task, further undermining the value of those weaker characters.

The Batman Wizard Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104002) teaches principles and strategies for the shortest road to victory.

The Tier System For Classes (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0) outlines which classes are most likely to be the ones carrying the party, and which classes are most likely to feel like undervalued sidekicks.


DPS is just a label that I find convenient, because of my MMO history, sorry it doesn't sit well semantically on these boards.

Ranged, CC, DPS, etc..they are just points of reference.

Thank you for the links. Seems to be a very one-dimensional analysis of something that is not just a maths exercise, but a social interaction geared around...and not to sound like a smart-ass...look in the top left of your screen, that's it, having fun with games.

I am curious what a STR 30 two-handed, raging, power-attacking Barbarian is doing when he hits things? Is it crowd control?

What about a party of skill-less fighters that splash Divine for self-heals? Is the highest Wisdom player considered the DC specialist? A party like that might not float your boat, but it is as legitimate as any other combination of characters.

I don't see our party really offering much in the way of effective mob control at the moment, not from what i have seen. Really, there is nothing at all wrong with opting to hack and slash your way through an encounter. It might not always work out, but neither does CC.

Honestly, if the whole party based their decisions on the Tier System, we would all roll combinations of the same five classes every game. As it stands though, I think my choice to play a cleric is a good one for the party.

For the record, the last time I played was under Pathfinder as a wizard which leveled to 6 before the game finished, which took some time as we only play monthly on average for a few hours. During that time I had a lot of fun with augmented Summons, as well as Grease, Ray of Exhaustion, Color Spray, Glitterdust, Web, Hideous Laughter, Mirror Image and other very versatile battlefield control spells. My character, throughout the campaign, was key to conserving party resources and ensuring smooth and effective resolutions to many of our encounters. I am very aware of at least some of the strategy aspects involved in successfully campaigning through an adventure. I wasn't pinching pennies to buy uber-enhacing piece of gear x for slot y to boost combo alpha, or any such min/maxing antics, but i got the job done, and to my credit, was complemented by other players on my decisions many times in that campaign.

Anyway, I have gotten way off topic.

I'm going to try and draft up a character at lunch tomorrow, i'll post it if/when i'm done.

Thanks again for the input everyone. I might not agree with a couple of the comments, but that's life.

Peace.