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AugustNights
2011-08-07, 01:42 PM
In an upcoming pbp game, I have a player who will be playing a medium sized race with powerful build who wishes to take advantage of as much reach as possible.

We have come to a disagreement about the reach of Large sized weapons within the hands of medium creatures. I know the RAW are very clear that a large sized reach weapon in the hands of a medium creature does not extend the reach of the wielder.


Official 3.5 FAQ (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a)
How do reach weapons work if they are of a different
size than the creature wielding them? Say, an ogre wielding
a Small or Medium glaive, or a human with the Monkey
Grip feat wielding a Large ranseur? What is the reach for
each situation?
A reach weapon doubles its wielder’s natural reach, but
only if the weapon is at least of an appropriate size for the
wielder. Wielding a “too-small” reach weapon grants no reach.
An ogre (Large) wielding a Medium or smaller reach
weapon gains no reach from the weapon, and could thus attack
foes either 5 feet or 10 feet distant (as normal for a Large
creature wielding a non-reach weapon).
A human (Medium) wielding a Large or larger reach
weapon could attack a creature 10 feet away (but no further),
and could not use the weapon to attack a creature 5 feet away
(as normal for a Medium creature wielding a reach weapon). A
human wielding a Small reach weapon would gain no reach
from the weapon.
The PH isn’t as clear on this as it could be, although an
example of reach in action on page 113 in the PH provides
pretty strong support: “A typical Large character wielding a
reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away . . .” [italics added]. While this reference doesn’t
mention the ability to wield a reach weapon larger than the
appropriate size, allowing such a weapon to grant reach to its
wielder is a reasonable extension of the spirit and intent of the
rule.

Great. However, he still maintains that a Larger weapon ought to reach further. Which I don't necessarily disagree with.

I do think that the reach extension would be mitigated by the medium creature's inability to full wield the weapon appropriately, a clumsiness in the arms, a need to grip the weapon further back to get a better balance on it, and the shorter arms of the medium creature. But it isn't Monkey Grip, it's powerful build.

I can see an argument to allow reach weapons for large sized creatures in the hands of medium creatures work with a +5 range reach.... explaining this precisely will be difficult.

A medium creature has a reach of 5 ft.
In this view of the game (desipite it not being RAW) a medium reach weapon increases this by 5 ft.

A large creature has a reach of 10 ft.
In this view of the game (desipite it not being RAW) a large reach weapon increases this by 10 ft.

So a medium creature (reach of 5ft) wielding a large reach weapon would have a reach of 15 feet. (5 medium reach +10 large weapon reach). What could be arguable from here, is the threatening area. Would this creature threaten 15ft away only (I prefer this), or 10-15ft away, and not within 5ft.

Anyhow, what it boils down to is this confusion: I know that a large reach weapon does not increase a medium creature's reach, I know why in RAW it does so, but what I don't know, is why it does not work that way, within game. What's the explanation for it?

Oh wise and learned playground sages, please aid me in my confusion!


EDIT: Possible Solution

GIANT GRIP [General, Fighter]
Prerequisite: Powerful Build, Str 15+
Benefit: When wielding reach weapons sized for a creature one size larger than your size category your reach with the weapon is extended by 5 feet.
Normal: Reach weapons sized for creatures larger than the wielder do not grant more reach than reach weapons sized appropriately for the wielder

Tacitus
2011-08-07, 03:07 PM
Though I can't offer much else to your conundrum (as in, I have no explanation), I will point out that WotC seems to think +5' Reach on a medium creature is worth two feats, social stigma, and a -1 to hit (ie, aberrant blood and the reach feat). That or a spiked chain.

So (if I can present a solution), given that you could just go grab a spiked chain and that generally takes a feat, why not let them use Large weapons as Reach with a feat that requires Powerful Build and a higher end strength (which they'll probably have anyway)?

AugustNights
2011-08-07, 04:56 PM
A feat, of course.
How about something like this.

GIANT GRIP [General, Fighter]
Prerequisite: Powerful Build, Str 15+
Benefit: When wielding reach weapons sized for a creature one size larger than your size category your reach with the weapon is extended by 5 feet.
Normal: Reach weapons sized for creatures larger than the wielder do not grant more reach than reach weapons sized appropriately for the wielder

Language might be a bit wonky.

Arcran
2011-08-07, 05:24 PM
Feat above looks good to me.

~Corvus~
2011-08-07, 05:28 PM
A feat, of course.
How about something like this.

GIANT GRIP [General, Fighter]
Prerequisite: Powerful Build, Str 15+
Benefit: When wielding reach weapons sized for a creature one size larger than your size category your reach with the weapon is extended by 5 feet.
Normal: Reach weapons sized for creatures larger than the wielder do not grant more reach than reach weapons sized appropriately for the wielder

Language might be a bit wonky.

Win. It's like Monkey Grip. Maybe give it a penalty to hit for its awkward size?

AugustNights
2011-08-07, 06:48 PM
Win. It's like Monkey Grip. Maybe give it a penalty to hit for its awkward size?

Considered a penalty to hit, but the major draw back of that is that characters with Powerful Build and who do not take this feat would be better at hitting with reach weapons. I tossed around the idea of "stances" or an action to change the grip going from no -2 penalty and medium creature/medium weapon reach and yes -2 penalty and medium creature/large weapon reach. Seemed over complicated.
In the long run, Feats should power up their users, not power down them.
So I think I'll leave the penalty out.

~Corvus~
2011-08-07, 09:29 PM
Considered a penalty to hit, but the major draw back of that is that characters with Powerful Build and who do not take this feat would be better at hitting with reach weapons. I tossed around the idea of "stances" or an action to change the grip going from no -2 penalty and medium creature/medium weapon reach and yes -2 penalty and medium creature/large weapon reach. Seemed over complicated.
In the long run, Feats should power up their users, not power down them.
So I think I'll leave the penalty out.

That sounds fair enough. What is his size, and what is this weapon the guy is wielding, might I ask?

ForzaFiori
2011-08-08, 12:00 AM
A feat, of course.
How about something like this.

GIANT GRIP [General, Fighter]
Prerequisite: Powerful Build, Str 15+
Benefit: When wielding reach weapons sized for a creature one size larger than your size category your reach with the weapon is extended by 5 feet.
Normal: Reach weapons sized for creatures larger than the wielder do not grant more reach than reach weapons sized appropriately for the wielder

Language might be a bit wonky.

Does this let you threaten 10'-15', or just 15'?

AugustNights
2011-08-08, 12:20 AM
~Corvus~
He will be playing a medium creature wielding a large glaive, I believe. It may wind up being another weapon.

However, I want the feat to be applicable to any size, but I feel simply granting the larger reach would be impractical and overpowered at higher size categories, thus the static +5 reach.

ForzaFiori
Both 10ft and 15ft, if medium.
If large (with a huge weapon) it would be 15ft. 20ft. and 25ft.
And so on.
The feat grants an additional +5 reach without limiting the previous reach.
Because, again, there would either need to be some sort of fancy change of grip action, or taking this feat could leave the player at a disadvantage, which feats should not do (IMHO).