There and back again, the elf that used to be an elf

[Soranar]

Basically a ''let's have fun with templates'' idea.

Take a wood elf

+2 STR, +2 DEX
-2 INT, -2 CON

add the Dustform template from sandstorm (say an evil wizard turned you into a construct, for whatever reason)

LA +2

character loses his INT score and CON score, gets STR +4, DEX -2, natural armor +5 (and other things that won't matter due to the next template).

add the incarnate construct template (say a good, I guess evil could work too, wizard turns you back into a humanoid)

LA-2

you lose all your construct traits and your special abilities but hey, you keep 3 natural armor bonus (since you're medium) and you get to reroll your INT and CON scores (basically negating your original race's penalties)
+ you keep your ability modifiers from being a construct too (basically you have a STR +6 race that's technically an elf)

Now add the dragonborn of bahamut for good measure (that would probably make you less of a freak in a lot of people's mind) and your net bonuses are STR +6, DEX-2, CON +2 and natural armor +3 for an LA 0 race.

For extra cheese, don't bother with dustform and just start with a warforged.

[Dragon Star]

Wow...
Would this actually work? If so, this is a good example of why -LA is a horrible idea.

[Jack_Simth]

Do note that if you do this at level 1, you lose your first level feat....

[Soranar]

Not really, it's an LA 0 race (after all the templates are added).

You lose nothing

[Coidzor]

Do note that if you do this at level 1, you lose your first level feat....

Only by an actively anti-player interpretation of the rules.

[Jack_Simth]

Only by an actively anti-player interpretation of the rules.
"An incarnate construct has no feats when it becomes a living creature" - Savage Species, page 121. It's quite straightforward. If you're doing this as a 1st level Elf, you lose your feats when you become Incarnated. If you're doing this as a 20th level Elf, you lose your feats when you become Incarnated.

Besides: You're cheesing up the rules to get a bunch of +'s to stats at no cost (you're writing into your backstory "a wizard did it" - including spells that have XP components, and stuff with no listed way to do without DM hand-waving - to get the mechanical benefit without properly paying for them). Why not put little stumbling blocks in the way?

[Soranar]

You're assuming the following:

elf becomes level 1
becomes a construct
becomes an incarnate construct

I'm assuming you take your 1 level after all the templates are added. The incarnate construct line claiming you lose all your feats prevents you from getting free feats from being a construct (or an elf for that matter, you do lose your elven proficiencies) or from stacking templates before applying the -2.

Incarnate construct is a debuff template: it makes you lose all your special abilities and they added the feat line for anything not covered by special abilities. The only benefit is , as I mentioned, a maximum of +3 natural armor class and the ability modifiers.

[Jack_Simth]

You're assuming the following:

elf becomes level 1
becomes a construct
becomes an incarnate construct

That's not an assumption. Both Dustform and Incarnate Construct are acquired templates, not inherited ones. They're done to a target after the target already exists. That's the required order for minimum loss.

[drakir_nosslin]

I'm assuming you take your 1 level after all the templates are added.

Is that even possible? Every character has to have at least 1 lvl whenever you encounter them. A newborn baby probably has 1 lvl of commoner with a lot of stat penalties and no skill points, there's no other way of representing them within the rules, at least none that I know of.

[Shadowknight12]

That's not an assumption. Both Dustform and Incarnate Construct are acquired templates, not inherited ones. They're done to a target after the target already exists. That's the required order for minimum loss.

Debatable. It could happen before the creature takes its first level. The rules don't say that you must acquire an acquired template after you take your first level. It could all well happen in quick succession, culminating with the character taking the level.


Is that even possible? Every character has to have at least 1 lvl whenever you encounter them. A newborn baby probably has 1 lvl of commoner with a lot of stat penalties and no skill points, there's no other way of representing them within the rules, at least none that I know of.

Racial HD. Creatures with only one of it trade it for their first class level when they gain it. That does not happen with NPC classes.

[Jack_Simth]

Debatable. It could happen before the creature takes its first level. The rules don't say that you must acquire an acquired template after you take your first level. It could all well happen in quick succession, culminating with the character taking the level.
The rules also don't say you can't shoot lightning out of your rear end at will as a free action as a result of getting struck by natural lightning at some point in the past.

Seriously, though. Aquired templates are added to existing creatures. You need to be an existing creature before you take the template. Elves don't have racial hit dice. Ergo, to take the template as an elf, you need to have already achieved level 1.

Besides:
In doing this, you're pulling a number of shenanigans. Incarnate Construct is a 9th level spell with a 5,000 xp price tag. You're having it cast on you 'for free' in your backstory. How, exactly, are you paying for that 26,530 gp hired casting?


Racial HD. Creatures with only one of it trade it for their first class level when they gain it. That does not happen with NPC classes.
So the child of two commoner-1's has more hit points than either parent (d8 for humanoid, vs. d4 for commoner)? This fails the realism test, I think. Granted, a lot of things in D&D do.

Also, do note that Elves don't have racial hit dice at all. The entry in the monster manual has a level of Warrior, not a humanoid racial hit die.

[Taelas]

That's not an assumption. Both Dustform and Incarnate Construct are acquired templates, not inherited ones. They're done to a target after the target already exists. That's the required order for minimum loss.

It is possible to be an Elf without a class. They have 1 RHD of Humanoid. Then if they go through this, they can pick their first class, which converts their RHD into the class' -- making them a 1st level character after becoming an Incarnate Construct, thus qualifying for a 1st-level feat.


Also, do note that Elves don't have racial hit dice at all. The entry in the monster manual has a level of Warrior, not a humanoid racial hit die.

Every single race has racial hit dice. Races with only 1 simply exchanges their RHD for the class' HD when they take their first level in a class.

[Shadowknight12]

The rules also don't say you can't shoot lightning out of your rear end at will as a free action as a result of getting struck by natural lightning at some point in the past.

The rules also don't say how exactly you acquire some templates, but interpretations must be made. Yours isn't any more valid than another person's, so long as they are all within the rules.


Seriously, though. Aquired templates are added to existing creatures. You need to be an existing creature before you take the template. Elves don't have racial hit dice. Ergo, to take the template as an elf, you need to have already achieved level 1.

You are wrong. Elves do have racial hit dice. They just have 1, and they exchange it for their first class level when they have it. Nobody's saying that the creature does not exist before acquiring the acquired template. We're saying that there's a period after the creature is born and before it takes its first level of anything, including racial HD. A wizard could potential intervene at that exact moment and perform the adjustments mentioned above.


Besides:
In doing this, you're pulling a number of shenanigans. Incarnate Construct is a 9th level spell with a 5,000 xp price tag. You're having it cast on you 'for free' in your backstory. How, exactly, are you paying for that 26,530 gp hired casting?

If the DM is that anal, by incurring a terrible debt that I will be paying off for the rest of my adventuring career.


So the child of two commoner-1's has more hit points than either parent (d8 for humanoid, vs. d4 for commoner)? This fails the realism test, I think. Granted, a lot of things in D&D do.

A constitution penalty takes care of that. Just because we don't have ability score adjustments for playing infants (as they exist for middle aged, old and venerable characters), doesn't mean they don't exist.


Also, do note that Elves don't have racial hit dice at all. The entry in the monster manual has a level of Warrior, not a humanoid racial hit die.

This is completely false. Elves do have a racial hit dice, which they exchange for their class level when they first gain it. The sample in the monster manual has done precisely that.

[Jack_Simth]

It is possible to be an Elf without a class. They have 1 RHD of Humanoid. Then if they go through this, they can pick their first class, which converts their RHD into the class' -- making them a 1st level character after becoming an Incarnate Construct, thus qualifying for a 1st-level feat.



Every single race has racial hit dice. Races with only 1 simply exchanges their RHD for the class' HD when they take their first level in a class.

OK... I might be wrong... by any chance do you have a page reference on "Every single race has racial hit dice"?

The rules also don't say how exactly you acquire some templates, but interpretations must be made. Yours isn't any more valid than another person's, so long as they are all within the rules.
Ah, but the catch is that it's the DM's that matters. Meanwhile, to make this happen, you're taking a series of steps that results in you getting a +4/+6 strength, plus some natural armor, at little-to-no real cost.

Why wouldn't the DM interpret things in such a way as to cause you issues with doing things that change the balance of the game noticeably at low levels?

You are wrong. Elves do have racial hit dice.
It's possible I am. By any chance do you have a page reference on this?

[Shadowknight12]

Ah, but the catch is that it's the DM's that matters. Meanwhile, to make this happen, you're taking a series of steps that results in you getting a +4/+6 strength, plus some natural armor, at little-to-no real cost.

Why wouldn't the DM interpret things in such a way as to cause you issues with doing things that change the balance of the game noticeably at low levels?

You're shifting the argument. The DM is free to rule or interpret whatever he wills, because he's the DM.

I'm merely saying that the interpretation suggested above is not contradicted by the rules at all. Whether any DM agrees or not is up to them. It is still allowed by RAW.


It's possible I am. By any chance do you have a page reference on this?

I am currently away from books, but this is from the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm):


Humanoids and Class Levels

Creatures with 1 or less HD replace their monster levels with their character levels. The monster loses the attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, skills, and feats granted by its 1 monster HD and gains the attack bonus, save bonuses, skills, feats, and other class abilities of a 1st-level character of the appropriate class.

EDIT: Also, this solves the problem of timing, too. I thought you kept the feats you gained from your RHD. Turns out you don't. Pick whatever feat you want for Legolas the baby, then apply the process mentioned in the OP, and have it take its first class when you're done with it. Sure, you lost the baby feat, but you still gain your first level feat nonetheless.

[Drelua]

Okay, I may be wrong, but whether or not elves have racial HD, and I seem to remember that they do, he still loses the feat that everybody gets st their first level, correct? He could, however, still get a first level bonus feat from fighter, I believe. Still, that's a trade just about any melee character would be willing to make; 1 feat for all those bonuses.

Edit: Damn, ya beat me to it.

[Jack_Simth]

You're shifting the argument. The DM is free to rule or interpret whatever he wills, because he's the DM.

I'm merely saying that the interpretation suggested above is not contradicted by the rules at all. Whether any DM agrees or not is up to them. It is still allowed by RAW.

To the same extent as healing by drowning, sure. It's a rather tortured rules interpretation, though.


I am currently away from books, but this is from the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm):



EDIT: Also, this solves the problem of timing, too. I thought you kept the feats you gained from your RHD. Turns out you don't. Pick whatever feat you want for Legolas the baby, then apply the process mentioned in the OP, and have it take its first class when you're done with it. Sure, you lost the baby feat, but you still gain your first level feat nonetheless.
That doesn't actually address the question. See, the question was not "what happens if you only have one racial hit die when you take a class level" - THAT, I'm well familiar with - the question was more "where do you get that elves have racial hit dice to begin with?"

[Shadowknight12]

That doesn't actually address the question. See, the question was not "what happens if you only have one racial hit die when you take a class level" - THAT, I'm well familiar with - the question was more "where do you get that elves have racial hit dice to begin with?"

Sigh. Link (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm).


Humanoid Type

A humanoid usually has two arms, two legs, and one head, or a humanlike torso, arms, and a head. Humanoids have few or no supernatural or extraordinary abilities, but most can speak and usually have well-developed societies. They usually are Small or Medium. Every humanoid creature also has a subtype.

Humanoids with 1 Hit Die exchange the features of their humanoid Hit Die for the class features of a PC or NPC class. Humanoids of this sort are presented as 1st-level warriors, which means that they have average combat ability and poor saving throws.

Humanoids with more than 1 Hit Die are the only humanoids who make use of the features of the humanoid type.

Emphasis mine. Whenever you see a Humanoid 1st level Warrior, it means it has exchanged its racial hit dice for the warrior level.

[Pika...]

Only by an actively anti-player interpretation of the rules.

Well, considering that no DM wort her/his salt would allow this to begin with...

[Jack_Simth]

Sigh. Link (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm).



Emphasis mine. Whenever you see a Humanoid 1st level Warrior, it means it has exchanged its racial hit dice for the warrior level.
Actually, no. It means that humanoids with 1 racial hit dice are presented as warrior 1's, instead. It does not mean the opposite, that things presented as warrior 1's of necessity had a racial hit die prior.


Well, considering that no DM wort her/his salt would allow this to begin with...

Yeppers.

[Shadowknight12]

Well, considering that no DM wort her/his salt would allow this to begin with...

Thank you for insulting me. I appreciate it.


Actually, no. It means that humanoids with 1 racial hit dice are presented as warrior 1's, instead. It does not mean the opposite, that things presented as warrior 1's of necessity had a racial hit die prior.

You're being deliberately obtuse. Firstly, I didn't say "anything" presented as warrior 1. I said Humanoids presented as warrior 1. Since there is not a list of which humanoids have only 1 RHD, the only way to acquire the answer to the question "Which Humanoids have only one RHD?" (without checking the FAQ or custserv) is to look at which Humanoids on the MM are warrior 1.


Yeppers.

And thank you, too.

[Jack_Simth]

You're being deliberately obtuse. Firstly, I didn't say "anything" presented as warrior 1. I said Humanoids presented as warrior 1. Since there is not a list of which humanoids have only 1 RHD, the only way to acquire the answer to the question "Which Humanoids have only one RHD?" (without checking the FAQ or custserv) is to look at which Humanoids on the MM are warrior 1.
To a degree, but the actual quote you used (to translate to logic terms) was A -> B, with A being "one humanoid racial hit die" and B being "presented as a warrior 1"

You're trying to go the other way, however; B -> A, which is not necessarily true from the presented rule of A -> B.

Or to put it another way: When a solar panel is placed in sunlight, electricity is generated. A -> B, with A being "a solar panel is placed in sunlight" and B being "electricity is generated". You're trying to swap that around, however, which is not logically valid (and can be demonstrated, as there are other things that produce electricity).

Or to put it a third way, what's the class skills for an Elf with a racial hit die? What's the point of taking your first level in commoner if you lose so much by taking it?

And thank you, too.
Wasn't deliberate, as you never indicated you were the DM in question.

[Greenish]

Well, considering that no DM wort her/his salt would allow this to begin with...So you're saying that they're playing the game wrong if they allow that?

These blanket statements always annoy me. Some people play higher OP games, some play lower.

[Quietus]

For what it's worth, Shadowknight, Jack Simth has the right of it here - there's no guarantee that they have an HD at all barring class HD. I can't think of a single source that's listed the core classes with racial HD. I do think that you have a point, but the two of you are debating an area of the rules that has no RAW, so neither of you are going to convince the other of your argument.

[Shadowknight12]

To a degree, but the actual quote you used (to translate to logic terms) was A -> B, with A being "one humanoid racial hit die" and B being "presented as a warrior 1"

You're trying to go the other way, however; B -> A, which is not necessarily true from the presented rule of A -> B.

Or to put it another way: When a solar panel is placed in sunlight, electricity is generated. A -> B, with A being "a solar panel is placed in sunlight" and B being "electricity is generated". You're trying to swap that around, however, which is not logically valid (and can be demonstrated, as there are other things that produce electricity).

I never said my reasoning was logically valid, I said it was logically true. Truth and validity are not the same thing in logic. You can have a horribly fallacious but truthful reasoning with no problems. What matters here is not the validity of the argument but its truth value. And it is, in fact, true.


Or to put it a third way, what's the class skills for an Elf with a racial hit die? What's the point of taking your first level in commoner if you lose so much by taking it?

It depends on the DM. A monster's class skills for his racial HD are those the creators/DM deem them to be.


Wasn't deliberate, as you never indicated you were the DM in question.

It doesn't matter who the DM in question is. It's an offensive statement all the same.


So you're saying that they're playing the game wrong if they allow that?

These blanket statements always annoy me. Some people play higher OP games, some play lower.

Precisely.

EDIT:



For what it's worth, Shadowknight, Jack Simth has the right of it here - there's no guarantee that they have an HD at all barring class HD. I can't think of a single source that's listed the core classes with racial HD. I do think that you have a point, but the two of you are debating an area of the rules that has no RAW, so neither of you are going to convince the other of your argument.

I'm sure someone else has already inquired about this and has received an official answer from the FAQ or some other official source. I'm just buying time until such an answer appears.

[Jack_Simth]

I never said my reasoning was logically valid, I said it was logically true. Truth and validity are not the same thing in logic. You can have a horribly fallacious but truthful reasoning with no problems. What matters here is not the validity of the argument but its truth value. And it is, in fact, true.
If it's true by the RAW you seem to put so much stock in, can you locate an official source that actually says elves have racial hit dice?

It depends on the DM. A monster's class skills for his racial HD are those the creators/DM deem them to be.Actually, a monster's class skills for it's racial hit dice are those named in it's stat block, unless they're specifically listed elsewhre:

Monster characters treat skills mentioned in their monster entry as class skills.(Link (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm#levelAdjustmentandEffectiveCha racterLevel))

So the class skills for the racial hit dice of a Mimic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/mimic.htm) are Climb, Disguise, Listen, and Spot. The class skills for the racial hit dice of a Troglodyte (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/troglodyte.htm) are Hide and listen.

So what's the class skills for an Elf's racial hit die, as you seem so intent on saying they've got one before they take class levels?


It doesn't matter who the DM in question is. It's an offensive statement all the same.Meh, whatever. Of course, so's your constant flat-out contradicting me, with no actual source, repeatedly. I'm at least admitting I could be incorrect, you're not. But eh, you haven't apologized either.

I'm sure someone else has already inquired about this and has received an official answer from the FAQ or some other official source. I'm just buying time until such an answer appears.
It is rather unlikely one will be found. Possible, but unlikely. Not that the FAQ is an overly grand source... some versions of it had it contradicting itself in different places... and it's no longer being updated for 3.5.

[Shadowknight12]

If it's true by the RAW you seem to put so much stock in, can you locate an official source that actually says elves have racial hit dice?
Actually, a monster's class skills for it's racial hit dice are those named in it's stat block, unless they're specifically listed elsewhre:
(Link (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm#levelAdjustmentandEffectiveCha racterLevel))

So the class skills for the racial hit dice of a Mimic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/mimic.htm) are Climb, Disguise, Listen, and Spot. The class skills for the racial hit dice of a Troglodyte (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/troglodyte.htm) are Hide and listen.

From the monster manual, page 301:

"Assign whatever skills you think the creature ought to have. [...] Assume that any skill you choose for the creature is a class skill,"

All the examples you quoted? The designers picked skills they thought made sense and made them class skills.


So what's the class skills for an Elf's racial hit die, as you seem so intent on saying they've got one before they take class levels?

Unless the racial HD of an elf is actually printed somewhere, I can't answer that question.


Meh, whatever. Of course, so's your constant flat-out contradicting me, with no actual source, repeatedly. I'm at least admitting I could be incorrect, you're not. But eh, you haven't apologized either.

Why is that offensive? Do I offend you simply for having a different opinion from yours? I am trying to do my best to fulfil your arbitrary request of official citations and you say I'm being offensive.


It is rather unlikely one will be found. Possible, but unlikely. Not that the FAQ is an overly grand source... some versions of it had it contradicting itself in different places... and it's no longer being updated for 3.5.

It might still be out there somewhere. Regardless, you don't need specific clarification because the bolded part I cited way earlier would not exist if not every Humanoid with one level of warrior didn't have a racial HD.

[Elric VIII]

If it's true by the RAW you seem to put so much stock in, can you locate an official source that actually says elves have racial hit dice?

Let me turn that fine-tuned logic laser back at you. Where in RAW does it say a dead character cannot act normally?

After all, there are defined conditions for the disabled and dying state, but the effect on a character's ability to act while dead are only implied and left to our interpretation.

Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryandDeath.htm), and here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#dead) are the rules for death. Nothing mentions inability to continue acting.

[Taelas]

Let me turn that fine-tuned logic laser back at you. Where in RAW does it say a dead character cannot act normally?

After all, there are defined conditions for the disabled and dying state, but the effect on a character's ability to act while dead are only implied and left to our interpretation.

Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryandDeath.htm), and here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#dead) are the rules for death. Nothin mentions inability to continue acting.

This argument is tired and trite all at once. It has no basis at all, as it is covered by the rules stating that the assumption is that unless there are rules to the contrary, the world works as it does in reality. Seriously, people need to stop trying this. It is insulting to be forced to even acknowledge it long enough to refute it.

[Elric VIII]

This argument is tired and trite all at once. It has no basis at all, as it is covered by the rules stating that the assumption is that unless there are rules to the contrary, the world works as it does in reality. Seriously, people need to stop trying this. It is insulting to be forced to even acknowledge it long enough to refute it.

So people don't exist until they get a job?

They have no HD until they have a class?

That is the exact argument that I'm making, it's implied that elves have RHD and death means you stop.

[Greenish]

Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryandDeath.htm), and here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#dead) are the rules for death. Nothing mentions inability to continue acting.If your non-lethal damage is higher than your HP (as it will be when your HP is -10), you're unconscious and thus can't act.

[Death] effects and Con drain are a different matter, though.

[dextercorvia]

If your non-lethal damage is higher than your HP (as it will be when your HP is -10), you're unconscious and thus can't act.

[Death] effects and Con drain are a different matter, though.

Those are handled too. "In case it matters, a dead creature, no matter how it died is considered to be at -10 HP." This is a paraphrase.

[Elric VIII]

If your non-lethal damage is higher than your HP (as it will be when your HP is -10), you're unconscious and thus can't act.

[Death] effects and Con drain are a different matter, though.


Those are handled too. "In case it matters, a dead creature, no matter how it died is considered to be at -10 HP." This is a paraphrase.

Well, the thing is I have seen these aruments before. :smallbiggrin:

The rebuttle to this is that nonlethal damage is not a value of zero, it is nonexistant.

[Greenish]

Well, the thing is I have seen these aruments before. :smallbiggrin:

The rebuttle to this is that nonlethal damage is not a value of zero, it is nonexistant.You "keep a running total on how much non-lethal damage a creature has accumulated" (RC page 72). It doesn't say you only start the count when you take any.

[Elric VIII]

You "keep a running total on how much non-lethal damage a creature has accumulated" (RC page 72). It doesn't say you only start the count when you take any.

Alright, I conceed that point.

The main point of my arument was that WotC does leave a lot of thins up to interpretation and saying that "because it doesn't explicitly say it means it's not true," is not a valid arument.

I chose a poor example, it seems, but there are bound to be others.

[Taelas]

So people don't exist until they get a job?

They have no HD until they have a class?

That is the exact argument that I'm making, it's implied that elves have RHD and death means you stop.

I understand what you were trying to do -- reductio ad absurdum -- but the analogy does not work. There is at least some basis in the argument that they do not have RHD (even though I personally disagree with it), whereas the 'can act while dead' bull does not have any basis at all in anything other than ridiculousness.

[flumphy]

I will say that I would not allow the trick suggested merely on principle. However, I do feel obligated to point out:


Humanoids and Class Levels

Creatures with 1 or less HD replace their monster levels with their character levels. The monster loses the attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, skills, and feats granted by its 1 monster HD and gains the attack bonus, save bonuses, skills, feats, and other class abilities of a 1st-level character of the appropriate class.

[Shadowknight12]

I will say that I would not allow the trick suggested merely on principle. However, I do feel obligated to point out:

I have quoted this myself, actually. The current debate is hinging on whether elves have RHD or not. I wish there was some "All creatures have RHD" sentence in a sourcebook somewhere.

[Elric VIII]

I understand what you were trying to do -- reductio ad absurdum -- but the analogy does not work. There is at least some basis in the argument that they do not have RHD (even though I personally disagree with it), whereas the 'can act while dead' bull does not have any basis at all in anything other than ridiculousness.

Reductio ad absurdum is a valid tactic in deductive reasoning.

I don't actually believe in or support the "act while dead" argument, it was just the first argument I could recall that was analagous to those presented in favor of elves without RHD.


Here's another argument: How does one represent a race that is of an age below the lowest possible random starting age? Or are Elves warriors as soon as they are born?

[Taelas]

Reductio ad absurdum is a valid tactic in deductive reasoning.
It is, but it requires following a line of argument to reach an absurd conclusion. While you do that, it has absolutely nothing to do with the argument at hand.


Here's another argument: How does one represent a race that is of an age below the lowest possible random starting age? Or are Elves warriors as soon as they are born?
Now this is at least relevant. :smallwink:

There's still a problem with the comparison, though. The humanoid type still gives many things warriors get that do not fit a creature under the starting age. They still get weapon proficiencies, for example.

So the answer to your argument is that there are no rules for humanoids that are completely untrained.

But I still believe that all creatures have RHD. For instance, I do not see why humanoids with 1 RHD should be forced to choose a class if they do not want one. If a bugbear can exist without class levels, so should a human (or elf) be able to.

Shadowknight12, you already quoted the only evidence we need. We are told of no other warriors in the Monster Manual except for humanoids with 1 RHD who have replaced it with the first level of warrior, therefore, all warriors in the Monster Manual belong to that classification of humanoids.