two weapon fighting fighter build help

[ranger557]

Hey all, i know there are many threads on here about this but the search keeps getting stuck for, so im going ask you guys instead lol. Im starting a campaign next couple of weeks and im going to play a fighter. Reason why is because only PHB, DMG, and FRCS books are allowed only, so real basic. I know and have read that i can be a cleric or wizard to be a better fighter but i just want to keep it old school lol kind of.

So we are starting at lvl 6 and have 32 point buy, and im thinking of going TWF but never really tried, so what are your thoughts and suggestions, thanks and happy gaming! :)

[The Glyphstone]

Honestly, if you want to TWF, Rogue is better for you - TWF is very, very hard to pull off effectively without a source of bonus damage dice, between the dual-wield attack penalties, the massive feat taxes, and the lower damage bonus from single-handing instead of dual-wielding.

[Cog]

The Glyphstone has the right of it; there are way to pull off TWF with a fighter-type, but I'm pretty sure not with those sources. There is one possibility if you want to keep with it, though; you can TWF with a two-handed weapon and using kicks for unarmed strikes. You get the lesser TWF penalties for a light offhand weapon, your main weapon gets 2H power attack returns, and your kicks get 1H returns.

[gorfnab]

Variant Horizon Tripper

Human
1. Ranger - Weapon Finesse, Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Kusari-Gama (DMG page 144), B: Track
2. Ranger - B: Two Weapon Fighting
3. Fighter - Combat Expertise, B: Improved Trip
4. Barbarian
5. Ranger - B: Endurance
6. Barbarian - Combat Reflexes
7. Horizon Walker
8. Horizon Walker
9. Horizon Walker - Improved Two Weapon Fighting
10. Horizon Walker
11. Horizon Walker
12. Horizon Walker - Greater Two Weapon Fighting
13. Horizon Walker
14. Horizon Walker
15. Horizon Walker - Dodge
16. Horizon Walker
17. Fighter - B: Mobility
18. Fighter - Spring Attack
19. Fighter - B: Whirlwind Attack
20. Shadowdancer (or something else, Hide in Plain Sight is an okay capstone though)

Level 17 through 20 can be whatever actually (same with feats of level 15+). More Barbarian would be an option for those levels.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Warblade from Tome of Battle is the result of WotC's Build a Better Fighter challenge*, and the Tiger Claw discipline warblades and swordsages get gives TWFers nice things (Dancing Mongoose gives an extra attack, and Raging Mongoose gives two extra attacks, per weapon). Also, the Two-hander + unarmed strike** thing Cog mentioned.

*never actually happened.

**get superior unarmed strike in the ToB feat section.

[Greenish]

I just looked over FRCS's feats and PrCs and hoo boy, it's casters' game.

Anyhow, if you want TWF Fighter (the class), you can go with Cog's suggestion (pretty stylish), or pick up a pair of kukris, grab Weapon Focus line and Imp. Critical along with TWF line. Either case, you want to keep str as high as you can while qualifying for TWF feats (GTW is probably not worth it).

A double weapon with above feats might work too (for a given definition of "work"), using PA two-handed when limited to one action.

Barbarian dip is nifty for Rage, either early game when it's relatively bigger boost or later after you've exhausted the good fighter feats.

[ranger557]

Hmmm... by reading all your posts. I'm guessing I should just go rogue lol, but mentally i dont see how effective the rogue would be at TWF at lvl 6 compare to a fighter with 8 feats to the rogues 4 ( im going to be human). I do believe the rogue in the end would be, but the reason why im going fighter is because we got two people who are clerics, one that is a wizard and one that is a monk. So we need a meatshield or i think we do lol. So im doing this for more RP and just kicking ass in game then optimizing but im guessing i should just go THF *tear*......because i've have played many THF fighters and warblades, i wanted to try something new lol.

The horizon tripper looks interesting and effective but its not what im looking for as in theme, but cool and thanks.

My thing is what stats should i focus on and im thinking of going with a double weapon like two bladed sword. What do you guys think? and should stats be prioritize like this Dex>Str>Con>Wis>Int>Cha

[Greenish]

mentally i dont see how effective the rogue would be at TWF at lvl 6 compare to a fighter with 8 feats to the rogues 4They're called class features. Besides, with the sources you have, you're going to run out of good feats to take.


the reason why im going fighter is because we got two people who are clerics, one that is a wizard and one that is a monk. So we need a meatshield or i think we do lol.You have two clerics. What you seem to be lacking is a skill monkey. :smallamused:


So im doing this for more RP and just kicking ass in game then optimizingUnless you want to RP someone who isn't very good at fighting, you'll need to think about your build a bit. If you want to kick ass you definitely have to think your build. FRCS is a treasure trove… for casters: there's practically nothing of use for a TWF fighter (except Twin Sword Style, and that's pretty minor).



My thing is what stats should i focus on and im thinking of going with a double weapon like two bladed sword. What do you guys think? and should stats be prioritize like this Dex>Str>Con>Wis>Int>ChaStr>Dex>Con>Wis. Dex only just enough to get the TWF feats you want. I wouldn't start with more than 16.

Two-bladed sword is pretty cool. I'd start with two levels in ranger for skills and feat, then take 4 in fighter to pick up WF, WS, ITWF and maybe PA to use when you can only make one attack (such as after moving or when making AoO).

[ranger557]

They're called class features. Besides, with the sources you have, you're going to run out of good feats to take.

You have two clerics. What you seem to be lacking is a skill monkey. :smallamused:

Unless you want to RP someone who isn't very good at fighting, you'll need to think about your build a bit. If you want to kick ass you definitely have to think your build. FRCS is a treasure trove… for casters: there's practically nothing of use for a TWF fighter (except Twin Sword Style, and that's pretty minor).

Str>Dex>Con>Wis. Dex only just enough to get the TWF feats you want. I wouldn't start with more than 16.

Two-bladed sword is pretty cool. I'd start with two levels in ranger for skills and feat, then take 4 in fighter to pick up WF, WS, ITWF and maybe PA to use when you can only make one attack (such as after moving or when making AoO).

Ok thanks for the snarky remarks :P. Let me clarify that i know its going to be pretty hard to pull off TWF period with the books and resources i have but was just wondering if people have notice or found a way to make it more effective.

True, that we need a rogue, but damn i've played rogues only a couple of times and don't really enjoy them that much. Also yeah i forgot they had class features :P compare to the featureless fighter.

Im guessing i should just go barbarian/fighter and go THF from all this difficulty lol. Or maybe a ranger like you suggested. Thanks but now i feel like im at square one....now im thinking what class should I be? and forget the rest lol

[Greenish]

Human Ranger2/fighter4

32 PB: STR: 16 DEX: 16 CON: 14 INT: 10 WIS: 12 CHA: 8

Feats: EWP (Two-bladed Sword), Imp. Initiative, Track (B), TWF (B), WF, PA, Twin Sword Style (if DM allows it to work on your double sword), ITWF, WS.

Not very good, but it does TWF a two-bladed sword.

[ranger557]

Human Ranger2/fighter4

32 PB: STR: 16 DEX: 16 CON: 14 INT: 10 WIS: 12 CHA: 8

Feats: EWP (Two-bladed Sword), Imp. Initiative, Track (B), TWF (B), WF, PA, Twin Sword Style (if DM allows it to work on your double sword), ITWF, WS.

Not very good, but it does TWF a two-bladed sword.

Thanks for the advice build. For a second I was thinking of going caster or rogue, but then again I just like being a melee type of character theme wise even if they suck really bad mechanically lol.So, I was thinking of some way of going fighter but i know i'll need to multiclass sooner or later to become more versatile. I think I might go the ranger/fighter route, but im guessing when i hit lvl 7 i should keep going ranger? thanks and have a good one!

[marcielle]

Druid>multiattack>EWP - BEARS/jk
You'd think with Drizzt being from Faerun, they'd pour a whole lot more into TWF in the FRCS. Speaking of which...
http://www.realmshelps.net/npc/drizzt.shtml
Just for lols. But seriously, rouge is better main class in general considering your current group, but if you and your DM cooperate so that your favored enemy choices come up often, then you really can't go wrong with straight ranger with a dip in Barbarian for Whirling Frenzy alt class feature(from the SRD). Maybe some fighter if you need feats NOW(trick to fighter dipping is to take as few levels as possible:smallwink:)
IIRC, pounce barbarian alt class feature can also be gotten from SRD. If it can, IN THE NAME OF AO, TAKE IT, JUST DO IT. If not then:smallannoyed:

[TwylyghT]

Well if you want some caster tossed in AND to use TWF you can do suprising well with Cleric or Druid... but then again you can do just about anything well with those classes.

For cleric, I'd be tempted to run as a Halfling cleric of Arvoreen, a forgotten realms halfling deity with favored weapon short sword, and the Good, Halfling, Law, Protection, War domains. The size bonus and war domain make up for the BAB loss and while the strength penalty would hurt briefly, your one level away from Divine Power and 3 levels short of Righteous Might and at that point, you pretty much a melee madman.

Druid is easy... quarterstaff, Shillelagh, and if you can get the spell from one of its many appearances Spikes. Plus everything else druids do... *shivers*

[Greenish]

You'd think with Drizzt being from Faerun, they'd pour a whole lot more into TWF in the FRCS. Speaking of which...Faerûn's more magic heavy. Oh, and no way that is CR 18.


IIRC, pounce barbarian alt class feature can also be gotten from SRD.It's from Complete Champion, and besides, SRD isn't among his allowed sources.

[marcielle]

Wow, not even SRD? That's pretty darn strict.

[faceroll]

Actually, given your sources, rogue is going to be really hot-or-cold on damage, since sneak attack won't work against undead, constructs, etc.

Furthermore, you don't really have any way to move and get a full attack, so your D6 HD light armor rogue is going to get DESTROYED when the ogre or nightwalker retaliates.

I would go with two levels ranger for two weapon fighting that ignores your dex requirements. That way, you can pump up strength and dump dex. Get dwarf as your race for free martial weapon proficiency with dwarven urgoshes. Take weapon focus, weapon specialization, etc. with it. That's really the only way to get good static damage with TWF.

Alternatively, you could go human and use two light weapons (I would go with short swords), and pick up snow tiger berserker (feat from Unapproachable East). That lets you make a full attack at the end of a charge. It's a regional feat, and requires that you can rage.

Champions of Ruin has Skewer Foe, a feat that gets you an extra 1d6 on attacks with piercing weapons if your first weapon hits an opponent that round.


Wow, not even SRD? That's pretty darn strict.

There's no pounce ACF in the SRD.

[ranger557]

Hey all,

marcielle:
Yeah I agree, you would think they would have more TWF feats from FRCS because Drizzt is from there lol. I could go rogue, but I have already given my stand on that because i just don't really enjoy the rogue class that much. Also I wanted to be a meatshield lol :smalltongue:.

TwylyghT:
Indeed and Indeed again good lad! casters are pretty pimp and badass if you optimize or not but thats not what im going for.I'm going more for thematic feel and just plain fun cutting stuff up lol, even if i'm not that good at it lol. Either way i was just trying to find a way to be better at TWF as a melee character.

faceroll:
Yeah I was thinking the same thing if i did go rogue, that would d6 and medium BA and i wouldnt feel thematically like a meatshield with TWF like that lol.
However thats interesting you said full ranger, that is an idea but i would go human instead of dwarf but then again i don't want two short blades, I rather have my badass polearm blade lol. Of course its more thematic, but your idea sounds more efficient for a character. Hmmm... choices.....stay fuzzy or be more efficient? lol

[TwylyghT]

Well if you can take a tiny splash of arcane to get you qualified, and you think youll be playing for awhile, and because I like them, you could do something goofy like...

Fighter 2/Barbarian 2/Sorcerer 1/ Dragon Disciple 1 and go for all 10 levels in DD.

As far as just PHB + DMG goes, thats about as straight up, melee bash as I can think up. The sorcerer splash tosses in some Shield and you can cast it very frequently from all the bonus slots for shoring up TWF defense problems, natural AC helps a lot too. The STR bonuses make up for medium BAB. You also get a metric ton of status immunity, flight and blind sense.

You fall a step behind on number of attacks because of BAB, but you can reclaim one by way of a secondary bite attack. And the immunities + blindsense + flight shore up a significant portion of melee characters shortcomings.

The d12 hitdice are nice too lol

You could always go full Barbarian and grab TWF feats as you level. As it has been said, feats wont be as big an issue for you as normal due to a minuscule selection. If you really need an extra one, splash Fighter. You do a decent chunk of damage with rage, full BAB, and more hitpoints than anyone else.

[ranger557]

Hey all, after considering options I have figured to go full ranger. I was thinking of going rogue because the extra bonus dice damage would be much better but then again my concept is more melee type than skillmonkey. Also i need those extra hitpoints lol. Here's what I have decided to build, what do you guys think?


Human Ranger
Stats
Str: 16 (17)
Dex: 14
Con: 16
Int: 10
Wis: 12
Cha: 8

1. Ranger - Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Two-bladed Sword, B: Track, Fearless(PGtF)
2. Ranger - B: Two Weapon Fighting
3. Ranger - Improved Initiative, B: Endurance
4. Ranger -
5. Ranger -
6. Ranger - Power Attack, B: Improved Two Weapon Fighting

Items: Mithral breastplate and gauntlets of ogre power?

[Person_Man]

Since you're going melee and you're starting at level 6, I would suggest heavy multiclassing instead. Specifically, some combination of Fighter 2, Ranger 1 or 2, Rogue 2, Barbarian 2 or Paladin 2.

The strongest non-Metamagic Feat options from the Player's Guide to Faerun:

Arcane Schooling: Allows you to use spell trigger items for one arcane class (presumably Sorcerer or Wizard). Thus you could buy and use Wands or similar magic items without having to invest in Use Magic Device. Specifically, you may want to take a look at Alter Self (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=343.0) and similar spells.
Otherworldly: Gives you Darkvision (useful in dungeons) and makes you a Native Outsider, which is handy for certain Alter Self forms (see link above).
Fleet of Foot: +10 base land speed when wearing light armor or no armor. Since you're going to be a Ranger anyway, this will be fairly handy.
Mercantile Background: You can sell items at 75%, and not 50%. Worthwhile only if your DM is fond of standard wealth by level. If he's not or if this is a one shot campaign, avoid this. If he is, this is a huge money saver.
Saddleback: Lets you replace Reflex Saves with Ride checks. A Small character (like a Halfling) can ride a Medium mount anywhere. Riding a mount dramatically increases your speed and often adds other special properties.

[ranger557]

Since you're going melee and you're starting at level 6, I would suggest heavy multiclassing instead. Specifically, some combination of Fighter 2, Ranger 1 or 2, Rogue 2, Barbarian 2 or Paladin 2.

The strongest non-Metamagic Feat options from the Player's Guide to Faerun:

Arcane Schooling: Allows you to use spell trigger items for one arcane class (presumably Sorcerer or Wizard). Thus you could buy and use Wands or similar magic items without having to invest in Use Magic Device. Specifically, you may want to take a look at Alter Self (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=343.0) and similar spells.
Otherworldly: Gives you Darkvision (useful in dungeons) and makes you a Native Outsider, which is handy for certain Alter Self forms (see link above).
Fleet of Foot: +10 base land speed when wearing light armor or no armor. Since you're going to be a Ranger anyway, this will be fairly handy.
Mercantile Background: You can sell items at 75%, and not 50%. Worthwhile only if your DM is fond of standard wealth by level. If he's not or if this is a one shot campaign, avoid this. If he is, this is a huge money saver.
Saddleback: Lets you replace Reflex Saves with Ride checks. A Small character (like a Halfling) can ride a Medium mount anywhere. Riding a mount dramatically increases your speed and often adds other special properties.


Hey thanks for the info about the feats, I didnt know that. However, why heavy multiclassing? wouldnt that thin me out more the focusing on something that i would at least be decently good at? Also how would I do that effectively? I never really heavy multiclass before.

[faceroll]

Hey thanks for the info about the feats, I didnt know that. However, why heavy multiclassing? wouldnt that thin me out more the focusing on something that i would at least be decently good at? Also how would I do that effectively? I never really heavy multiclass before.

It would, if most melee classes were actually well designed and had a proper progression of class features. Unfortunately, very few muggle classes are worth taking more than 4 levels of.

As a muggle, you have 7 sources of power: class features, ability scores, feats, skills, BAB, saves, items, and HP. Itemization, for our purposes of charop, are assumed to be largely independent of class- everybody gets the same WBL. Same with ability scores (beyond choosing race/templates, which you don't seem to have a lot of options for, anyway). As a fighter-type, you aren't interested in skills beyond tumble, balance, and maybe swim.

That leaves you with class features, HP, BAB, feats, and saves. Saves benefit from multiclassing, as they stack. BAB doesn't do well when multiclassing with less than full BAB classes, due to the rounding down of fractional BAB before adding. Most muggle classes are front loaded with class features, in many cases, they are feats. You can get most of the iconic abilities of monk, ranger, barbarian, fighter, and paladin with 1 to 4 levels.

For example:
Barbarian 1 gets you rage and fast movement (or pounce if using complete champion). Barbarian 2 gets you improved trip if using unearthed arcana.

Fighter1,2,4 gets you 3 feats.

Ranger 2 gets you another couple feats.

So a barbarian 1/fighter4/ranger2 gets Two Weapon Fighting, Track, Favored Enemy, Rage, Fast Movement, and 3 bonus feats, while maintaining full BAB, gets saves of 9/4/1 (compared to 5/2/2 for barb or 5/5/2 for ranger), and has two fewer HP than a fighter 7.

If you can nab extra rage, you've got rage for pretty much all day, given that you likely won't need it for more than 3 encounters.

[Greenish]

If you can nab extra rage, you've got rage for pretty much all day, given that you likely won't need it for more than 3 encounters.No CW, no extra rage. In fact, I'm not even sure about dipping fighter, since with the sources allowed you won't have what to invest them in. Maybe for Weapon Focus/Specialization, at least those do something.

[faceroll]

No CW, no extra rage.

Thus the "if you can..." I would lobby very hard to use SRD stuff, then use whirling frenzy rage variant (extra attack) and trade in uncanny dodge from barbarian 2 for improved trip.


In fact, I'm not even sure about dipping fighter, since with the sources allowed you won't have what to invest them in. Maybe for Weapon Focus/Specialization, at least those do something.

Weapon focus/spec is the only way, given the material, to get extra damage without rogue levels. It's far more reliable than sneak attack, too, especially because the sources listed won't give him gravestrike, vinestrike, or any abilities that allow sneak attacking the undead.

Fighter will also get him stuff like Improved Initiative and Improved Trip. Using the off hand attack to knock people down can be fairly useful when fighting against humanoids. It will also free up his feats from levels, allowing him to pick up iron will or a useful regional feat that gives him +2 initiative.

[ranger557]

So what im guessing at is melee characters will have it tough regardless because of my resources i have.
Also that dipping in levels, preferably even ones will benefit me in the long run because of the abilities i'll gain.
So in other words for more effciency and power, i should go barbar2/fighter2/rngr2 with a a greatsword to maximize my usefulness? .....sadly im ok with that lol.

[faceroll]

So what im guessing at is melee characters will have it tough regardless because of my resources i have.
Also that dipping in levels, preferably even ones will benefit me in the long run because of the abilities i'll gain.
So in other words for more effciency and power, i should go barbar2/fighter2/rngr2 with a a greatsword to maximize my usefulness? .....sadly im ok with that lol.

Don't bother with ranger if you're picking up a greatsword. If you want an optimized build as a melee character in core, saph has a really great build that uses a spiked chain:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415

I've also seen a core only level 20 fighter build that's heavy on magic items, but can one-shot a balor using archery.

Straight fighter 20 is doable in core. Pick 2 of the following combat styles to specialize in: archery, tripping, mounted combat. Don't bother with weapon focus/weapon specialization. Pick up power attack, for sure. Use a two handed weapon (or two hand your lance). Spirited charge with a lance gets you 2x damage. Race should be: human if not using mounted combat; halfling or gnome otherwise (so you can take your riding dog indoors).

Mixing in some barbarian there wouldn't hurt, either. Maybe 4 levels of barbarian. You could go for more damage, less tripping, with full orc. Full orc barbarian 1 with a greatsword in a rage does 2d6+10 damage. Pretty good!

[ranger557]

Wow wow WOW, ive play spiked chain fighters and so forth a few times and they are BADASS but it gets old...lol. so i guess let me get back to the drawing board to make a decent TWF melee character.... Lol :/

[The Glyphstone]

There's always the Sneak Attack Fighter variant if you want to be a frontline dual-wielder...it trades away Bonus Feats and gets Sneak Attack while keeping full BAB and low skill points (though I like to combo in the Thug variant that trades heavy armor proficiency for an extra 2 skill points/level and a better skill list).

[Eldariel]

Ranger 2/Barbarian 2/Fighter 12 should be alright (or Ranger 2/Barbarian 2/Fighter 4/Horizon Walker 10). You get:

- Ranger skills
- One Favored Enemy
- Tracking
- One Rage per day
- Uncanny Dodge
- Fast Movement
- Weapon Specialization-line (you get full damage on the off-hand so these are actually somewhat useful for you)

This assumes you go Strength-focus, of course. You could dualwield Kusari-Gamas (DMG Pg. Whatever) if you want a tripping reach weapon; they're pretty cool (Exotic Weapons). You shouldn't bother with Power Attack unless you use a two-hand weapon (which you most certainly don't).

[SowZ]

Although maybe not the MOST powerful route, Tempest/Shadowdancer/Dervish is a fun route for a dual wielding fighter.

[faceroll]

Although maybe not the MOST powerful route, Tempest/Shadowdancer/Dervish is a fun route for a dual wielding fighter.

2/3rd of those classes aren't available, due to book restrictions.

[Dr.Epic]

Honestly, if you want to TWF, Rogue is better for you - TWF is very, very hard to pull off effectively without a source of bonus damage dice, between the dual-wield attack penalties, the massive feat taxes, and the lower damage bonus from single-handing instead of dual-wielding.

Yeah, you're better off if you have sneak attack. Take a level or two of fighter and then just go rogue.

[The Glyphstone]

Yeah, you're better off if you have sneak attack. Take a level or two of fighter and then just go rogue.

He didn't want the skill points though, and was concerned about his survivability with rogue hit dice, which was why I recommended the Sneak Attack Fighter. It's not good by any means, but does meet the requested requirements.

[Greenish]

He didn't want the skill points though, and was concerned about his survivability with rogue hit dice, which was why I recommended the Sneak Attack Fighter. It's not good by any means, but does meet the requested requirements.Except for sources.

[ranger557]

Hey guys, well im still pondering about what to build at, but interesting posts. Sneak attack fighter would be interesting and help me with bonus damage for my TWF but not sure about it. Again on the fighter/rogue, sounds good but sounds less frontline and more moving and staying away tactics lol.

Also I was thinking what i posted, i could go ranger6/fighterxx, so i dont have to worry about the prereqs. for the TWF and ITWF, and just boost my Str or i could go ranger2/fighter4/ranger2/fighterxx, and have a decent dex to meet the prereqs for just up to ITWF and have high str but will have mediocre con lol. Either way i think the two bladed sword sounds good to me and concept wise feels cool. What do you guys think?

Oh i didnt put barbarian because i think xp penalty will be in the game.

[faceroll]

Combat style only works when you're in light or no armor, so you're going to want to get either a mithral breastplate. The optimal dex for a mithral breastplate is 20. Which means you can qualify for the TWF line just fine.

Huuuuh.

[Tvtyrant]

Hey guys, well im still pondering about what to build at, but interesting posts. Sneak attack fighter would be interesting and help me with bonus damage for my TWF but not sure about it. Again on the fighter/rogue, sounds good but sounds less frontline and more moving and staying away tactics lol.

Also I was thinking what i posted, i could go ranger6/fighterxx, so i dont have to worry about the prereqs. for the TWF and ITWF, and just boost my Str or i could go ranger2/fighter4/ranger2/fighterxx, and have a decent dex to meet the prereqs for just up to ITWF and have high str but will have mediocre con lol. Either way i think the two bladed sword sounds good to me and concept wise feels cool. What do you guys think?

Oh i didnt put barbarian because i think xp penalty will be in the game.
This does the opposite of what your trying to do, if what your trying to do is frontline fight with TWF. Look at what d10 gets you with a low con; say a con of 12 you get 5.5 average+1 con bonus a level. At level one this is 11, at level 2 17.5, at level 10 70. A Rogue with a high con on the other hand (16) has 3.5+3, getting 9 at level 1, 15.5 at level 2, and 67.5 at level 10. It amounts to a 3 HP difference at level 10, while the Rogue has a much higher damage output do to SA.

[Eldariel]

You're a Core Two-Weapon Fighter? Go full all-out Sneak Attack Thug Fighter; you still have enough feats to pick up Greater Weapon Specialization & Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (1. TWF 3. WF 6. ITWF 9. WS 12. GTWF 15. GWF 18. GWS) while also getting tons of extra damage if you can get a flank partner. You actually aren't losing much compared to a Fighter; you don't get Improved Critical, Dodge and that's about it.

With those sources you really don't lose much, and you could take two-four levels in Martial Rogue for the feats, Uncanny Dodge and stuff (it's Rogue that trades Sneak Attack for Fighter Bonus Feats).


Really:
Martial Rogue 4/Sneak Attack Fighter 16 would work pretty well. This would get you 19 Base Attack Bonus and good Hit Dice so you're still a frontliner, but you'd also get good skills, Uncanny Dodge, Evasion & enough feats to take everything.

You could take:
1st Level: Martial (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue) Rogue - Two-Weapon Fighting + Weapon Focus: Whatever
2nd Level: Sneak Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter) Thug (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighterVariantThug) Fighter
3rd Level: Fighter - Open Feat (Improved Initiative or something)
4th Level: Fighter
5th Level: Fighter
6th Level: Fighter - Weapon Specialization
7th Level: Rogue - Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
8th Level: Fighter
9th Level: Fighter - Improved Critical
10th Level: Fighter
11th Level: Fighter
12th Level: Rogue - Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
13th Level: Fighter
14th Level: Fighter
15th Level: Fighter - Greater Weapon Focus
16th Level: Rogue - Greater Weapon Specialization


Or something like that. You can sit in the front and dish out hits and if you get a flank you get some nice bonus damage. You could also take Dodge, Mobility and Combat Reflexes to get into Shadowdancer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/shadowdancer.htm) and take that first level for hiding in plain sight; basically, the idea is to max out your Hide (you get it in class from Rogue and you have decent skillpoints with 4+Int from Thug Fighter and 8+Int from Rogue) and then attack from hiding in front of peoples' faces if you don't have a flank partner; this gives you -20 to Hide but if your Hide is good enough, it still allows you to sneak attack them. As your enemies generally cast shadows, this is not very hard to pull off (though obviously not effective against all opponents).

You probably want to go Wood Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm#woodElf); +2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con, -2 Int. Con-penalty will kinda suck but you get both Dex and Strength which is kinda key for pulling a two-weapon fighting build off.

16 Str
16 Dex
14 Con
12 Int
10 Wis
8 Cha

That's a 32pb that would give you:
18 Strength
18 Dexterity
12 Constitution
10 Intelligence
10 Wisdom
8 Charisma

While the Con is a bit low for comfort, you're overall somewhat alright for something as hard to pull off as Core TWF. You could also dump mentals for 14 Con at the cost of 8 Wis and 8 Int but not sure how well that would serve you.

[ranger557]

Hey guys, on the hitpoints thing you got a point. We are using the 3/4 rule for hp and with my ranger/fighter concept he only has +2 so his hp is not that great, like i calculated it would be 54.

However, thats when i thought i would go full ranger because you dont need to meet the prereqs for the TWF style and i can get a 14 dex, and 16 str and con. So i can have a good boost to str and not worry about dex, but then again i would waste having light armor even mithral breastplate without having a high dex but oh well. right?

Also i was thinking that those variants could work for my concept, but im not sure if they are allowed from the book sources i have. Also I can't do wood elf thats not from core phb or FRCS.

[ranger557]

Also I'll try to confirm what other sources like SRD are allowed and maybe that will help all of us to figure how less sucky I can make this TWF character I want lol. Thanks guys for all your input :)

[Eldariel]

Hey guys, on the hitpoints thing you got a point. We are using the 3/4 rule for hp and with my ranger/fighter concept he only has +2 so his hp is not that great, like i calculated it would be 54.

However, thats when i thought i would go full ranger because you dont need to meet the prereqs for the TWF style and i can get a 14 dex, and 16 str and con. So i can have a good boost to str and not worry about dex, but then again i would waste having light armor even mithral breastplate without having a high dex but oh well. right?

You can't really go low Dex if you start on a low level as a frontliner; if your AC is poor, you're going to eat infinite hits and just plain die while fighting. You need enough Dex to hit the Dex Cap of the armors you can use; early game it's Chain Shirt (+4 so 18 is enough), midgame it's Mithril Breastplate (+5 so a +2 item gets you there) and lategame it's Celestial Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#celestialArmor) requiring 26 for full utility (you get +6 item and then a +2 from a Tome eventually to max it out; though it's still good at 24 Dex).

Core Ranger lacks unconditional damage modifiers which is kind of painful for two-weapon fighting. The spellcasting doesn't really help much in that regard either; Core Ranger spells have utility but the offensive spells are stymied by low Wisdom and there's no combat-capability enhancing magic on the list. I think you want Sneak Attack and Weapon Specialization; you don't even have to use Sneak Attack but it's extra when it does work (when you win initiative, when you get flanking, when you have e.g. Invisibility/Blinking on you or whatever) and when you don't, you still have as much damage as you can get out of Core TWF (basically full BAB Weapon Specialization + Greater Weapon Specialization + full Strength-focus).

The SRD build is really probably the best you can get. If SRD simply is not allowed, Rogue/Fighter is what I'd go for (about the same, just split around the other way). Pure Fighter is pretty useless; there are no other directly useful feats for TWF than the usual weapon enhancing feats (since TWF can't use Spirited Charge or Power Attack; EWP: Kusari-Gama and Improved Trip would work but requires 13 Int) so Fighter 20 has the same offense as Fighter 12. Ranger has more skills but that's about it; Favored Enemies come into play only so often. I do prefer playing Rangers but for efficiency, you kinda need Fighter/Barbarian (you definitely should see about having one level of Barbarian anyways; Fast Movement is very useful and Rage is a nice extra button to press when you have some big bad who needs a-wreckin').

[Lans]

FR has pounce or attack with both hands once for barbarians in feat form, its restricted to light weapons though so...meh?

Dire Flail Smash! is a really good choice providing a nice debuff effect.

[ranger557]

You can't really go low Dex if you start on a low level as a frontliner; if your AC is poor, you're going to eat infinite hits and just plain die while fighting. You need enough Dex to hit the Dex Cap of the armors you can use; early game it's Chain Shirt (+4 so 18 is enough), midgame it's Mithril Breastplate (+5 so a +2 item gets you there) and lategame it's Celestial Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#celestialArmor) requiring 26 for full utility (you get +6 item and then a +2 from a Tome eventually to max it out; though it's still good at 24 Dex).

Core Ranger lacks unconditional damage modifiers which is kind of painful for two-weapon fighting. The spellcasting doesn't really help much in that regard either; Core Ranger spells have utility but the offensive spells are stymied by low Wisdom and there's no combat-capability enhancing magic on the list. I think you want Sneak Attack and Weapon Specialization; you don't even have to use Sneak Attack but it's extra when it does work (when you win initiative, when you get flanking, when you have e.g. Invisibility/Blinking on you or whatever) and when you don't, you still have as much damage as you can get out of Core TWF (basically full BAB Weapon Specialization + Greater Weapon Specialization + full Strength-focus).

The SRD build is really probably the best you can get. If SRD simply is not allowed, Rogue/Fighter is what I'd go for (about the same, just split around the other way). Pure Fighter is pretty useless; there are no other directly useful feats for TWF than the usual weapon enhancing feats (since TWF can't use Spirited Charge or Power Attack; EWP: Kusari-Gama and Improved Trip would work but requires 13 Int) so Fighter 20 has the same offense as Fighter 12. Ranger has more skills but that's about it; Favored Enemies come into play only so often. I do prefer playing Rangers but for efficiency, you kinda need Fighter/Barbarian (you definitely should see about having one level of Barbarian anyways; Fast Movement is very useful and Rage is a nice extra button to press when you have some big bad who needs a-wreckin').

Yeah, I have been thinking for a while, that it would be fun conceptually to play a two bladed sword TWF fighter or ranger, but it won't give me enough power to increase my effectiveness, which I would like to have too.

So im thinking of going fighter/rogue like some people have suggest. I'm not sure if i can use the SRD class variants yet, my DM hasn't written back to me yet.

Therefore, I was thinking of building a core fighter/rogue and came up that maybe a rogue2/fighter4 would be good and then next lvl up i can continue to lvl in rogue or i could go rogue3/fighter3 and continue one more lvl in fighter and then rogue. I think i'll go shortswords for this, What do you guys think? Would that be more effective for TWF and keep me as a frontliner?

Thanks and have a good one!

[Eldariel]

Rogue/Fighter is...passable. Probably as good as you'll get.

[Devmaar]

I'm not familiar with far-realms material, but certainly in core, there aren't that many really good TWF feats. You can probably get away with Fighter2/Rogue4

[Midnight_v]

Hmm... maybe you can get some good equiment? It'd be not so bad if the swords were fighting for you. Though with those sources... no so much. sigh.
I'm afraid that horizon walker is likely the best prc you're gonna get. I'll give it a thourough search, with respect that you have 3 sources, NOT including the srd.

[Eldariel]

Oh, you have FRCS bookS? Can you clarify which ones? Forgotten Realms Campaign Settings, Player's Guide to Faerun and...? Do you have e.g. Unapproachable East? Shining South? Champions of Ruin? There's potentially useful stuff in there.

[Vandicus]

There's always the Sneak Attack Fighter variant if you want to be a frontline dual-wielder...it trades away Bonus Feats and gets Sneak Attack while keeping full BAB and low skill points (though I like to combo in the Thug variant that trades heavy armor proficiency for an extra 2 skill points/level and a better skill list).

Seconding this since no one else seems to have commented on it yet.

The OP seems to want an effective damage dealing TWF who has a bit more survivability but doesn't need rogue skill points. Fighter has full BAB and can get the sneak attack damage with the feat trade. Of course you'll need a flanking buddy.

[ranger557]

Hey guys, yeah im trying to get hold of my DM about the SRD and what books are allowed from FRCS but no answer as of now. I'm definitely for the fighter/rogue build now because I realized and did the math lol, that it will benefit me more then a core ranger/fighter. However, i want the character to be more melee based, so I'm thinking more fighter lvls than rogue right?

Until I get an answer about the SRD and so forth. I'm thinking i should go Rog3/Ftr3 or Rog2/Ftr4, so that I can be a decent melee frontliner. What do you guys think? I mean if I get too many rogue levels, would that lower my survivability? I know I would get more sneak attack dice and that would be good, but I want to be in the frontline as well to be an able melee combatant. Just for assumptions, lets say all the FRCS are allowed.

[Devmaar]

Well, certainly don't take Fighter 3 if you don't plan on taking Fighter 4.

Assuming 14 CON, 12 INT
Fighter3/Rogue3 has on average 43.5hp (2 bonus feats, 45 skill points, 2d6SA, 5BAB)
Fighter4/Rogue2 has on average 45.5hp (3 bonus feats, 39 skill points, 1d6SA, 5BAB)

Survivability isn't much of a difference, and evasion will probably help more than 2hp.

My suggestion is Fighter2/Rogue4, gives 41.5hp (2 bonus feats, 51 skill points, 2d6SA, 5BAB) and then continue in Rogue.

If your DM allows the SA Fighter though, that is the best choice (and should be combined with Thug (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighterVariantThug) for more skills at almost no cost).

[Eldariel]

Hey guys, yeah im trying to get hold of my DM about the SRD and what books are allowed from FRCS but no answer as of now. I'm definitely for the fighter/rogue build now because I realized and did the math lol, that it will benefit me more then a core ranger/fighter. However, i want the character to be more melee based, so I'm thinking more fighter lvls than rogue right?

Until I get an answer about the SRD and so forth. I'm thinking i should go Rog3/Ftr3 or Rog2/Ftr4, so that I can be a decent melee frontliner. What do you guys think? I mean if I get too many rogue levels, would that lower my survivability? I know I would get more sneak attack dice and that would be good, but I want to be in the frontline as well to be an able melee combatant. Just for assumptions, lets say all the FRCS are allowed.

You want at least 4 Fighter-levels in a Coreish setting; Weapon Specialization is actually somewhat efficient on a two-weapon fighter (if a tad boring). I'd probably go all the way to 12 for Greater Weapon Spec; Fighter 12/Barbarian 1/Rogue 7 eventually. Obviously split the Rogue and Fighter levels somewhat evenly to max out the skills. With Sneak Attack Fighter and Martial Rogue in the mix, I'd go Fighter 15/Barbarian 1/Rogue 4. This would obviously be the stronger mix; Base Attack Bonus is pretty important for a TWFer.

FR would offer some goodies like Battle Jump, Snow Tiger Berserker, Shou Disciple, etc. but I wouldn't worry about it until you can get a confirmation that books other than Forgotten Realms Campaign Settings itself is legal.

[Gavinfoxx]

Remember for two weapon fighter, you can go greatsword and armor spikes. Just saying!

[Cog]

Remember for two weapon fighter, you can go greatsword and armor spikes. Just saying!
Two-handed and unarmed, as suggested upthread, costs an extra feat (unless the sources include one of the Improved Unarmed Strike-granting items), but allows Power Attack on all of your attacks.

[Raendyn]

Well I too have a friend that was a former DM who is stuck with FR. So, i can give advice..

First of all, If your DM is in Love with FR as most of them are,(there must be something with the setting, or they just read the whole icewind dale/ drow trilogies and play baldur gate & icewind dale) then it's an easy job.
Talk to him, make him understand that over-favored spellcasters and
suckers-fighters Live in the whole Toril !
Point out that FRCS is 3.0 version book & that half of the mechanics in there were changed in PGtF. If you convince him about that you are in good way.
After that say that you love Zentarim (read about them a little you might
indeed fall in love) & ask him to take the fighter substitution lvls from Champions of valor web-enhancement. Always point out to fluf!
You dont Really need nor will get more, since i can't find a good reason for him to allow any other books.

If zentarim gets into the game (come on it's an FR book!) go straight fighter, if not but allows Players Guide to Faerun Do as PersonMan said.
Go Horizon triper if he said NO to everything.

You may also want to try a standard TWF many are posted but here is an alternative.
StrongHeart Halfling, FR race +2dex -2 str small size +1 attack with thrown
weapons +1 bonus feat, loose +1 to all saves normal halflings get.
1-Rogue 1 Point Blank Shot. (Precise Shot, SH halfling bonus)
2-Ranger 1
3-Ranger 2 Far Shot (Rapid Shot, Ranger bonus)
4-Fighter 1 TWF
5-Fighter 2 Quick Draw
6-16 Assasin(or Avanger, a good version of assasin in the wizards site) Intprove init/weapon finese/ weapon focus are all feats you might also want pick one for lvl 6 from there you will act depending on the campaign. Note that Craven was firstly introduced in FR books (as most cheesy/awesome things) Convince him to take it if possible

The point here is to use your 2 weapons in each hand and also have a few flasks (acid,alchemist fire, holy water,...) so you can attack via touch attacking & deal sneak attack also. Dont being able to SA undead? who cares there are 2 clerics! For everything save oozes there are gloves in the MIC to strike them with sneak attack.

Profit. you can always use your daggers and also throw them any time.
If you ever want to take Weapon Focus (splash weapons) point out to your DM that Wizards Authors have written such a weapon focus which also gives +1dmg

[Midnight_v]

Hmm... maybe you can get some good equiment? It'd be not so bad if the swords were fighting for you. Though with those sources... no so much. sigh.
I'm afraid that horizon walker is likely the best prc you're gonna get. I'll give it a thourough search, with respect that you have 3 sources, NOT including the srd.

Well... I went and got the FRCS off the shelf, and I gotta say. Wow. It really totally doesn't support your concept at all. I suggest the horizon prc might be really needed. . .
Though you might be able to be a paladin, who drops all his stuff and becomes a twf blackguard at 11.
Or Ranger/Blackguard, if your major issue is the extra hp + extradamgage, i.e sneak attack and smiting.

[ranger557]

Hey guys, thanks for the input again :) and happy gaming!

Devmaar:Yeah i was calculating the stats for both builds but my stats were str: 14 dex: 16 con: 16. So i got 53 to 56 hps and thats not bad right for a frontliner right? Since i can get the extra damage from the SA, i think this would be adequate? I mean 41 is kind of low isn't? or am I mistaken?

Eldariel: I was thinking the same thing for Rog2/Ftr4, that i could get weapon focus and weapon Specialization to boost my SA damage. I'm not sure about the barbarian, even though its an optimize way to increase my effectiveness. I mean, it feels cheesy just to get the Boost of rage and feet movement increase features. However, i guess i could fluff up and say he was raised by barbarians but he was adopted lol :smalltongue:. So if i did put barbarian, how would i build that? like Barb1/RogX/FtrX?

Raendyn:Its funny you mention if he is in love with FR. Im not sure, this is a new group, but i would say he is just using a limited sources that he knows because he actually said the adventure will most likely be in the Greyhawk setting. Also cool alternative to a TWF throwing halfling build, but definitely not what I'm going for right now, but still cool. I'll look up on the Zentraim fighter, I have read about them before and they seem good to multiclass to.

Midnight_v:yeah sadly this setting doesn't, but i definitely would not got ranger/BlkGrd or pal/BlkGrd and for the other reason is that we have to be good aligned or at least neutral. However, it wouldn't matter because im not interested in Blackguard, but that would make a badass villain concept lol.

[Devmaar]

Hey guys, thanks for the input again :) and happy gaming!

Devmaar:Yeah i was calculating the stats for both builds but my stats were str: 14 dex: 16 con: 16. So i got 53 to 56 hps and thats not bad right for a frontliner right? Since i can get the extra damage from the SA, i think this would be adequate? I mean 41 is kind of low isn't? or am I mistaken

I wasn't looking to calculate stats so much as demonstrate that one extra Fighter level doesn't give much of a boost over Rogue for survivability


Eldariel: I was thinking the same thing for Rog2/Ftr4, that i could get weapon focus and weapon Specialization to boost my SA damage. I'm not sure about the barbarian, even though its an optimize way to increase my effectiveness. I mean, it feels cheesy just to get the Boost of rage and feet movement increase features. However, i guess i could fluff up and say he was raised by barbarians but he was adopted lol :smalltongue:. So if i did put barbarian, how would i build that? like Barb1/RogX/FtrX?

I hadn't considered Weapon Spec though, In core, it is worth having.
I'd say Barb1/Rog3/Ftr2 or Barb1/Rog1/Ftr4 if you want Weapon Spec

[Eldariel]

Just take one level of Barb at any point. I mean, it's not really a stretch; say you play a Wild Elf, they're basically Barbarians to start with. And Barbarian/Fighter is one of the most basic archetypes in the game. Conan the Barbarian is a Barbarian/Rogue/Fighter actually, for example. Besides, if you're playing Elf Fast Movement sorta makes sense. The races are way too homogenous speedwise.

Rogue 1/Barbarian 1/Fighter 4 is fine. Then you take a second level of Rogue next level and so on. All the good stuff. Split Rogue-levels so you can max important skills as class skills (Hide, Move Silently, Tumble, Balance, etc.). This way you could even be the Trapfinder if the party needs one (you have enough points to max Search & Disable Device).

[Midnight_v]

Midnight_v:yeah sadly this setting doesn't, but i definitely would not got ranger/BlkGrd or pal/BlkGrd and for the other reason is that we have to be good aligned or at least neutral. However, it wouldn't matter because im not interested in Blackguard, but that would make a badass villain concept lol.
Yeah, I know, I know: team evil, gets a lot of hate. I am starting to like that concept though it basically builds itself, Miko falls then gets really rough/blendery.

As for the remaining class options. . .
Barb1/Rog1/Ftr4 for Weapon Spec is as good as its gonna get. So Eldariel has it down pretty much pat. Wood Elves actually get a str bonus, iirc, though you're going to supplement stats with items of enhancement bonus I'd guess.
Ironically, being humans not that great here as, really there aren't enough feats to choose from.
Just a second to look at that build, see whats there


Subrace Elf Barb1/Rogue1/Ftr 4
1 Barbarian(1) rage/movement, Feat: Two Wpn Fighting
2 Fighter(1): Weapon Focus
3 Fighter(2) Feat (2)
4 Fighter(3)
5 Fighter(4) Weapon Specialzation
6 Rogue (1) Feat

Gold: 13,000
So more feat picking and you don't get your imp2wpn fighting at level 6 but what you get is more important.
those extra feats... Improved initiative and "Blooded or Thug" regional feats give you a +6 just by themselves.

[Eldariel]

Gold: 13,000
So more feat picking and you don't get your imp2wpn fighting at level 6 but what you get is more important.
those extra feats... Improved initiative and "Blooded or Thug" regional feats give you a +6 just by themselves.

I agree exactly otherwise except I'd start with Rogue; 16 skillpoints > 3 HP (or 2 in the case of 3/4th HP), especially in the long run. And ya, Wood Elves are +Str +Dex -Con -Int; so 18/18/12/10/10/8 being doable on 32pb.

[Runestar]

The only 2WFing fighter I saw as viable was jack be quick, using robilar's gambit and karmic strike to hit the opponent 6 times for each time he attacked you. :smalltongue:

[Midnight_v]

Yeah, but the sources... he can't MAKE that with the 3 books. Funny thing is, this is totally the purpose of optimizing. The ability to find the right tool for the right job.


I agree exactly otherwise except I'd start with Rogue; 16 skillpoints > 3 HP (or 2 in the case of 3/4th HP), especially in the long run. And ya, Wood Elves are +Str +Dex -Con -Int; so 18/18/12/10/10/8 being doable on 32pb. Ahhh... I missed that. I was reading it as 6 hp, but honestly, 16 skill points is likely more important that 6 hp too.
The issue I see is that he's going to be stretch thin on cash for all the things he needs. Mostly cause he's paying for the enchanments on 2 wpns.
How much can you spend on equipment? 1/2 wealth on any item 1/3 wealth on any 1 item?

[ranger557]

Yeah, but the sources... he can't MAKE that with the 3 books. Funny thing is, this is totally the purpose of optimizing. The ability to find the right tool for the right job.

Ahhh... I missed that. I was reading it as 6 hp, but honestly, 16 skill points is likely more important that 6 hp too.
The issue I see is that he's going to be stretch thin on cash for all the things he needs. Mostly cause he's paying for the enchanments on 2 wpns.
How much can you spend on equipment? 1/2 wealth on any item 1/3 wealth on any 1 item?

I'm not sure about the Wealth equipment ratio but I do know if i finish my background story for my character i get more gold, like a 7th or 8th character.


Just take one level of Barb at any point. I mean, it's not really a stretch; say you play a Wild Elf, they're basically Barbarians to start with. And Barbarian/Fighter is one of the most basic archetypes in the game. Conan the Barbarian is a Barbarian/Rogue/Fighter actually, for example. Besides, if you're playing Elf Fast Movement sorta makes sense. The races are way too homogenous speedwise.

Rogue 1/Barbarian 1/Fighter 4 is fine. Then you take a second level of Rogue next level and so on. All the good stuff. Split Rogue-levels so you can max important skills as class skills (Hide, Move Silently, Tumble, Balance, etc.). This way you could even be the Trapfinder if the party needs one (you have enough points to max Search & Disable Device).

yeah i was thinking the same thing to go Rog1 and Barb1 and then 4 more in Ftr. However, I got news that he is cool about variants but he needs to look over them, and so i sent him the link about them. If he says yes, then I think Rog1/Barb1/Ftr4 would work good. Also he finally said that only the FRCS is the only book he is using from that setting.


Yeah, I know, I know: team evil, gets a lot of hate. I am starting to like that concept though it basically builds itself, Miko falls then gets really rough/blendery.

As for the remaining class options. . .
Barb1/Rog1/Ftr4 for Weapon Spec is as good as its gonna get. So Eldariel has it down pretty much pat. Wood Elves actually get a str bonus, iirc, though you're going to supplement stats with items of enhancement bonus I'd guess.
Ironically, being humans not that great here as, really there aren't enough feats to choose from.
Just a second to look at that build, see whats there


Gold: 13,000
So more feat picking and you don't get your imp2wpn fighting at level 6 but what you get is more important.
those extra feats... Improved initiative and "Blooded or Thug" regional feats give you a +6 just by themselves.

I don't think i can go wood elf, but i forgot whats in FRCS, either case I'm thinking of going Human, not really a elf type of player lol :smalltongue:. Again i like that class build, so i might go that route. Also I might get more gold because of my background story.

Also I was thinking if I go Rog1/Barb1/Ftr4 and its the variants you guys were talking about the martial Rogue and SA fighter, do i just continue with Fighter after lvl 6 or put more Rogue in there? Thanks guys, this is really coming together :smallbiggrin:.

[Eldariel]

I don't think i can go wood elf, but i forgot whats in FRCS, either case I'm thinking of going Human, not really a elf type of player lol :smalltongue:. Again i like that class build, so i might go that route. Also I might get more gold because of my background story.

Also I was thinking if I go Rog1/Barb1/Ftr4 and its the variants you guys were talking about the martial Rogue and SA fighter, do i just continue with Fighter after lvl 6 or put more Rogue in there? Thanks guys, this is really coming together :smallbiggrin:.

Gonna be hard to get high enough Dex & Str as a human though you're welcome to try.

Next level would be Rogue; you get to pick up Improved Two-Weapon Fighting on level 7.

[herrhauptmann]

If you're going fighter/rogue, even just one level of rogue, I'd recommend taking Craven.
Anytime you qualify to make a sneak attack, you get +1 damage per level. So your ftr5/rog1 gets SA of 1d6+6.

How would the Teflammar Shadowlord PrC work with your character concept? I forget all the prereqs, but it does provide an option similar to the Horizon Walkers Shifting planar terrain, and the shadowdancers hide in plain sight.

I know I'm jumping in on this late, but some of the suggestions, like heavy multiclassing for your first few levels, I'd recommend getting a hold of some dragon magazine material. There's enough ACFs for the ranger that can be stacked (you lose different features for each one) for instance, that you're completely different from the stock PHB ranger.

[ranger557]

Gonna be hard to get high enough Dex & Str as a human though you're welcome to try.

Next level would be Rogue; you get to pick up Improved Two-Weapon Fighting on level 7.

Yeah, I was thinking about it now, to go human or wood elf. So I figured going wood elf would be more beneficial than human because of the extra boost to stats. However, I'm thinking the -2 to cha or int wont matter but the con would hurt me. How can I be a meatshield with 12 con? lol

Also my DM said it was good and allowed the variants. Therefore, I'm thinking of going Martial Rog1/Barb1/SA Ftr 4 to get the most for fighting power. What would be a good feat from FRCS book or should i just stick with core? because only the FRCS is allowed, not the other books of faeurn.


If you're going fighter/rogue, even just one level of rogue, I'd recommend taking Craven.
Anytime you qualify to make a sneak attack, you get +1 damage per level. So your ftr5/rog1 gets SA of 1d6+6.

How would the Teflammar Shadowlord PrC work with your character concept? I forget all the prereqs, but it does provide an option similar to the Horizon Walkers Shifting planar terrain, and the shadowdancers hide in plain sight.

I know I'm jumping in on this late, but some of the suggestions, like heavy multiclassing for your first few levels, I'd recommend getting a hold of some dragon magazine material. There's enough ACFs for the ranger that can be stacked (you lose different features for each one) for instance, that you're completely different from the stock PHB ranger.

Im not sure but again only the FRCS book is allowed, not the othere :/. Also i dont think he is allowing any dragon material as of now lol. However, Im thinking of goind rogue/fighter now, instead of the ranger part since it doesnt boost my TWF that much, but thanks though.

[Gavinfoxx]

Most of the best stackable ranger ACF's aren't in Dragon Magazine, if I remember... sadly, FRCS doesn't really help melee characters at all, at least without other books...

[Eldariel]

Yeah, I was thinking about it now, to go human or wood elf. So I figured going wood elf would be more beneficial than human because of the extra boost to stats. However, I'm thinking the -2 to cha or int wont matter but the con would hurt me. How can I be a meatshield with 12 con? lol

Also my DM said it was good and allowed the variants. Therefore, I'm thinking of going Martial Rog1/Barb1/SA Ftr 4 to get the most for fighting power. What would be a good feat from FRCS book or should i just stick with core? because only the FRCS is allowed, not the other books of faeurn.

You get better stats as Wood Elf than Human. Comparable Human Point Buy would be:
18 Str (16 points)
18 Dex (16 points)
8 Con (0 points)
8 Int (0 points)
8 Wis (0 points)
8 Cha (0 points)

With Wood Elf you could do:
18 Str (10 points)
18 Dex (10 points)
14 Con (10 points)
8 Int (2 points)
8 Wis (0 points)
8 Cha (0 points)

Or drop one of the Str/Dex/Con by 2 to get better Int/Wis (so 18/18/12/10/10/8 or 18/16/14/10/10/8 or 16/18/14/10/10/8 - but 18 Str 18 Dex is kinda the big thing for your melee combat to get TWF feats + good AC and damage). Note, Forgotten Realms Campaign Settings is a 3.0 book originally.

The 3.5-version of the "Wood Elf" (which can be found in the 3.5 Monster Manual; the Charisma Penalty version was there in the 3.0 Monster Manual) doesn't have a Charisma penalty. You might want to run that by your DM; it sucks enough that you lose points in Con as a frontliner. You really don't need a Cha-penalty too.


Also, do note that you'll want to put all your level-up points into Strength. Strength-based TWF actually deals damage when you can pull it off; it's just kinda hard to pull off.

[ranger557]

You get better stats as Wood Elf than Human. Comparable Human Point Buy would be:
18 Str (16 points)
18 Dex (16 points)
8 Con (0 points)
8 Int (0 points)
8 Wis (0 points)
8 Cha (0 points)

With Wood Elf you could do:
18 Str (10 points)
18 Dex (10 points)
14 Con (10 points)
8 Int (2 points)
8 Wis (0 points)
8 Cha (0 points)

Or drop one of the Str/Dex/Con by 2 to get better Int/Wis (so 18/18/12/10/10/8 or 18/16/14/10/10/8 or 16/18/14/10/10/8 - but 18 Str 18 Dex is kinda the big thing for your melee combat to get TWF feats + good AC and damage). Note, Forgotten Realms Campaign Settings is a 3.0 book originally.

The 3.5-version of the "Wood Elf" (which can be found in the 3.5 Monster Manual; the Charisma Penalty version was there in the 3.0 Monster Manual) doesn't have a Charisma penalty. You might want to run that by your DM; it sucks enough that you lose points in Con as a frontliner. You really don't need a Cha-penalty too.


Also, do note that you'll want to put all your level-up points into Strength. Strength-based TWF actually deals damage when you can pull it off; it's just kinda hard to pull off.

Right dude, i was thinking the same thing with the point buy, the wood elf could be a little better than the human. However, im thinking if i go the wood elf route I will have very low con and won't be a very good meatshield, from 18/18/12/10/10/8. Though i guess i dont have to worry about weapon finesse because i can keep increasing my str to hit right?

However i could go 18/16/14/10/10/8, but i would have to put all my points into dex to get those TWF feats and would have to decide to go str or dex to hit, of course obviously str would be the answer. Good sign, i would have more hp.

Now i could go 16/18/14/10/10/8, but this would get me less power and damage basically and make me more dependent on weapon finesse. Also i would have to decide to keep increasing str or dex and of course str would be the one for the damage increase but would make me waste a feat for my dex. Good sign again, more hp lol.

I guess i should just calculate how much i would really lose on the hitpoints between all builds right?

[Eldariel]

Right dude, i was thinking the same thing with the point buy, the wood elf could be a little better than the human. However, im thinking if i go the wood elf route I will have very low con and won't be a very good meatshield, from 18/18/12/10/10/8. Though i guess i dont have to worry about weapon finesse because i can keep increasing my str to hit right?

However i could go 18/16/14/10/10/8, but i would have to put all my points into dex to get those TWF feats and would have to decide to go str or dex to hit, of course obviously str would be the answer. Good sign, i would have more hp.

Now i could go 16/18/14/10/10/8, but this would get me less power and damage basically and make me more dependent on weapon finesse. Also i would have to decide to keep increasing str or dex and of course str would be the one for the damage increase but would make me waste a feat for my dex. Good sign again, more hp lol.

I guess i should just calculate how much i would really lose on the hitpoints between all builds right?

Let's be honest here: Without a way to get damage off Dexterity you will need good Strength. You also need good Dexterity for TWF feats. With both of these in mind, there's no way you're going to be having more than 14 Constitution either way. So Human or Elf, it becomes a question of 12 or 14 Con.

The math is simple. +1 Con = 1 HP/Level. Rogue/Barb/Fighter 4 with 3/4 HP and Rogue-level first = 6+9+7.5*4 = 45. Add to that +1 Con and it's 51 HP. 57 for 14 Con, or a 12% increase, approximately. It's not bad and of course, the higher your level gets the more important the higher Con gets. I dislike going Low Con as much as the next guy but likewise, it really sucks to go low Dex (more hits) or low Str (poor To Hit and Damage).

Weapon Finesse is bad either way; you need Strength-focus to make damage work when you aren't in a position to sneak attack things. It's also a wasted feat. You 100% need Strength-focus for Core TWF. The thing about getting 18 Dex would be that you could wear fitting armor early (Chain Shirt -> Mithril Breastplate) getting you decent AC for the level. Any less and you'll be behind the max Dex of your armors and even more behind on AC than otherwise. You could use magic item bonuses to qualify for the TWF feats but those are always unreliable, especially in Faerun with its multiple Dead Magic Zones and all the good stuff. Best I could see is:

18 Str
18 Dex

- All level-ups to Str (rather key later on since it allows you to reach the truly remarkable Str-numbers), and Str-enhancing items as a priority (and Con-enhancing items as secondary priority, of course).
- Acquire Manual of Quickness of Action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#manualofQuicknessofAction) +1-+2 to qualify for Greater TWF eventually (and to fill out your eventual Celestial Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#celestialArmor) combined with a +6 Dex item)
- Get enhanced weapons -> profit.


I'd almost lean towards 18/18/14/6/10/8 or 18/18/14/8/8/8. Sucks to have all the mentals so low but this is the only way I can see your physicals really measuring up. You have enough skillpoints from classes that you kinda-sorta still get some even with 6 Int but it's kinda painful regardless, and 8 Wis just isn't good for your Will-saves, Perceptional skills or anything else.

The other option is biting the bullet and going with 12 Con. Those are the only two reasonable options I see, really. Decide which you prefer: Less skills and Will-save or less HP and Fort-save (though mind, between Barbarian and Fighter Fort-save is definitely not going to be much of an issue either way).

[ranger557]

Let's be honest here: Without a way to get damage off Dexterity you will need good Strength. You also need good Dexterity for TWF feats. With both of these in mind, there's no way you're going to be having more than 14 Constitution either way. So Human or Elf, it becomes a question of 12 or 14 Con.

The math is simple. +1 Con = 1 HP/Level. Rogue/Barb/Fighter 4 with 3/4 HP and Rogue-level first = 6+9+7.5*4 = 45. Add to that +1 Con and it's 51 HP. 57 for 14 Con, or a 12% increase, approximately. It's not bad and of course, the higher your level gets the more important the higher Con gets. I dislike going Low Con as much as the next guy but likewise, it really sucks to go low Dex (more hits) or low Str (poor To Hit and Damage).

Weapon Finesse is bad either way; you need Strength-focus to make damage work when you aren't in a position to sneak attack things. It's also a wasted feat. You 100% need Strength-focus for Core TWF. The thing about getting 18 Dex would be that you could wear fitting armor early (Chain Shirt -> Mithril Breastplate) getting you decent AC for the level. Any less and you'll be behind the max Dex of your armors and even more behind on AC than otherwise. You could use magic item bonuses to qualify for the TWF feats but those are always unreliable, especially in Faerun with its multiple Dead Magic Zones and all the good stuff. Best I could see is:

18 Str
18 Dex

- All level-ups to Str (rather key later on since it allows you to reach the truly remarkable Str-numbers), and Str-enhancing items as a priority (and Con-enhancing items as secondary priority, of course).
- Acquire Manual of Quickness of Action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#manualofQuicknessofAction) +1-+2 to qualify for Greater TWF eventually (and to fill out your eventual Celestial Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#celestialArmor) combined with a +6 Dex item)
- Get enhanced weapons -> profit.


I'd almost lean towards 18/18/14/6/10/8 or 18/18/14/8/8/8. Sucks to have all the mentals so low but this is the only way I can see your physicals really measuring up. You have enough skillpoints from classes that you kinda-sorta still get some even with 6 Int but it's kinda painful regardless, and 8 Wis just isn't good for your Will-saves, Perceptional skills or anything else.

The other option is biting the bullet and going with 12 Con. Those are the only two reasonable options I see, really. Decide which you prefer: Less skills and Will-save or less HP and Fort-save (though mind, between Barbarian and Fighter Fort-save is definitely not going to be much of an issue either way).

I agree dude, yeah the math is simple, i did it in my head but didnt post it, because I was in a hurry lol. Anyway yeah I think needing high str and dex is the only way for me to be an efficient TWF character. I rather have a decent or neutral Wis and Int then to lose skill points and get really owned by will saves even though i might still lol. I mean 49 HP isnt too bad, just can't stay in front all the time, good thing we have a dwarf fighter lol.

I'm guessing for equipment, I will go with shortswords and a mithral breastplate, what do you guys think? what good generic magic items are good for this type of character? Str or Con boost item? I definitely like the idea of getting that tome for Dex and getting the Celestial armor much later, if we get there lol.

Wood Elf Mart.Rog1/Barb1/SAThugFtr4

Str: 18 (19)
Dex: 18
Con: 12
Wis: 10
Int: 10
Cha: 8

1. Weapon Focus, TWF
2. Rage, Fast Move.
3. Improved Initative
4. SA 1d6
5.
6. Weapon Specialization SA 2d6

[Greenish]

what good generic magic items are good for this type of character? Str or Con boost item?Str, Con & Dex boosters, Cloak of Resistance, decent armour and weapons, and that's pretty much your gold gone.

[Eldariel]

I agree dude, yeah the math is simple, i did it in my head but didnt post it, because I was in a hurry lol. Anyway yeah I think needing high str and dex is the only way for me to be an efficient TWF character. I rather have a decent or neutral Wis and Int then to lose skill points and get really owned by will saves even though i might still lol. I mean 49 HP isnt too bad, just can't stay in front all the time, good thing we have a dwarf fighter lol.

Your will-saves are gonna suck **** anyways (btw, itemize and get spells against that; of particular note is Protection from Evil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromEvil.htm) which blocks any mind-control spell regardless of alignment, in addition to the bonuses). Crystalmask of Mindarmor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/armorAndShields.htm#mindarmor), Cloak of Resistance and any Wisdom-boosting items you might happen by.


I'm guessing for equipment, I will go with shortswords and a mithral breastplate, what do you guys think? what good generic magic items are good for this type of character? Str or Con boost item? I definitely like the idea of getting that tome for Dex and getting the Celestial armor much later, if we get there lol.

Equipment:
- Mw. Short Swords or Mw. Kukris. +1 is relatively cheap and you need it anyways so I'd go with +1 eithers. You'll eventually want Flaming/Frost/Holy-type stuff on them for extra damage, and castings of Greater Magic Weapon from any of the party casters but with your present funds, that's not a real consideration.
- Mw. Composite Longbow (Strength +4 or higher if you get a Strength boost item; carry two if you do, one for your enhanced Str and one for your unenhanced Str). You're incidentally a very good archer (high Str, high Dex, Sneak Attack for close-enough targets; if you ever dip 2 levels in Ranger you can pick up Rapid Shot and be the best archer possible in Core) so it'd be a waste not to carry one. You should make an effort to keep it up to speed enhancement-wise all game (at least Greater Magic Weapon once possible slot-wise) for when melee isn't possible/convenient.
- 2xLight Hammer & 2xKukri or Shortsword (the one you're not using); these allow you to deal Bludgeoning and Piercing Damage efficiently if necessary (some creatures have damage type based damage reduction, such as the Skeleton; while you don't get your Weapon Focus and Spec, that's lesser evil than having to fight the DR). Consider making these out of Silver or Cold Iron (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialMaterials.htm) too, to cover the various damage reductions you can face early on (your Wizard/Cleric/person with Knowledges should tell you which you need).
- Mithral Breastplate +1; it's cheap and you gonna carry it around for a long time. Gives you a goodly bunch of AC.
- Cloak of Resistance +1-2; yeah, you kinda need it. Also, Amulet of Wis +2 eventually.
- Gauntlets of Ogre Power +2 & Gloves of Dexterity +2; you obviously want these.
- Amulet of Health +2 - even more obvious.
- Ring of Protection +1 - you'll want it eventually.
- Amulet of Natural Armor +1 - same; Ring of Protection is a better buy, of course, since Deflection > Natural Armor and it takes a less critical bodyslot to start off with.
- Heward's Handy Haversack for carrying stuff. And usual adventurer's gear (10' pole, rope, tent, rations, ink + quill + parchment/paper, various kits, bedroll, waterskin, outfit, etc.)

Basically, pick your inventory out of those. You want a mix of damage & defense (that's pretty much all you're getting).


Later on you'll want:
- Celestial Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#celestialArmor) (and find out if the flight enhancement can be, for a price, be usable for an increased number of times per day or be made permanent; if not, you need auxillary sources of flight)
- Animated (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#animated) Mithral Heavy Steel Shield of Greater Fortification (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#fortification) (first get Animated Shield, of course; then add the Fortifications)
- Boots of Speed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bootsofSpeed)
- Ring of Blinking (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#blinking) (while Blinking, you strike as Invisible and thus enemies are vulnerable to your Sneak Attacks if they can't see Invisible!)
- Ring of Freedom of Movement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#freedomofMovement) (real duh lategame)
- Crystalmask of Mindarmor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/armorAndShields.htm#mindarmor)
- Items boosting any skills you might be using (Hide, Move Silently, Spot, Listen, Search, Disable Device, etc.)
- Dusty Rose & Pale Green Prism Ioun Stones (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#iounStones) (I always get Iridescent Spindle eventually too)

Obvious +6 Str, Con & Dex (and perhaps Wis) items and appropriate Tomes/Manuals for the Inherent bonus. +1 weapons with tons of weapon enhancements on them and obvious higher enhancement versions of your Rings of Protection, Amulets of Natural Armor, Cloaks of Resistance and such.

Helm of Teleportation is also worth considering (though bloody expensive), and buying Pearls of Power for your spellcasters in exchange for them using spellslots such as MIND BLANK, Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestment (Cleric spell) on you would be quite smart (provided you can trust them). You obviously want some source of See Invisibility; perhaps have it Permanencied on you or something.


Wood Elf Mart.Rog1/Barb1/SAThugFtr4

Str: 18 (19)
Dex: 18
Con: 12
Wis: 10
Int: 10
Cha: 8

1. Weapon Focus, TWF
2. Rage, Fast Move.
3. Improved Initative
4. SA 1d6
5.
6. Weapon Specialization SA 2d6

Weapon Focus requires BAB +1. Swap around Improved Initiative and Weapon Focus. Otherwise seems right. Next level is level 2 in Rogue picking Improved Two-Weapon Fighting

[Darthteej]

lol

STOP LAUGHING! WHY DO YOU FIND EVERYTHING SO FUNNY?

[ranger557]

STOP LAUGHING! WHY DO YOU FIND EVERYTHING SO FUNNY?

Because the number 1 rule in D&D is to have fun :smallbiggrin:, so i laugh a lot in my games.


Your will-saves are gonna suck **** anyways (btw, itemize and get spells against that; of particular note is Protection from Evil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromEvil.htm) which blocks any mind-control spell regardless of alignment, in addition to the bonuses). Crystalmask of Mindarmor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/armorAndShields.htm#mindarmor), Cloak of Resistance and any Wisdom-boosting items you might happen by.

Equipment:
- Mw. Short Swords or Mw. Kukris. +1 is relatively cheap and you need it anyways so I'd go with +1 eithers. You'll eventually want Flaming/Frost/Holy-type stuff on them for extra damage, and castings of Greater Magic Weapon from any of the party casters but with your present funds, that's not a real consideration.
- Mw. Composite Longbow (Strength +4 or higher if you get a Strength boost item; carry two if you do, one for your enhanced Str and one for your unenhanced Str). You're incidentally a very good archer (high Str, high Dex, Sneak Attack for close-enough targets; if you ever dip 2 levels in Ranger you can pick up Rapid Shot and be the best archer possible in Core) so it'd be a waste not to carry one. You should make an effort to keep it up to speed enhancement-wise all game (at least Greater Magic Weapon once possible slot-wise) for when melee isn't possible/convenient.
- 2xLight Hammer & 2xKukri or Shortsword (the one you're not using); these allow you to deal Bludgeoning and Piercing Damage efficiently if necessary (some creatures have damage type based damage reduction, such as the Skeleton; while you don't get your Weapon Focus and Spec, that's lesser evil than having to fight the DR). Consider making these out of Silver or Cold Iron (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialMaterials.htm) too, to cover the various damage reductions you can face early on (your Wizard/Cleric/person with Knowledges should tell you which you need).
- Mithral Breastplate +1; it's cheap and you gonna carry it around for a long time. Gives you a goodly bunch of AC.
- Cloak of Resistance +1-2; yeah, you kinda need it. Also, Amulet of Wis +2 eventually.
- Gauntlets of Ogre Power +2 & Gloves of Dexterity +2; you obviously want these.
- Amulet of Health +2 - even more obvious.
- Ring of Protection +1 - you'll want it eventually.
- Amulet of Natural Armor +1 - same; Ring of Protection is a better buy, of course, since Deflection > Natural Armor and it takes a less critical bodyslot to start off with.
- Heward's Handy Haversack for carrying stuff. And usual adventurer's gear (10' pole, rope, tent, rations, ink + quill + parchment/paper, various kits, bedroll, waterskin, outfit, etc.)

Basically, pick your inventory out of those. You want a mix of damage & defense (that's pretty much all you're getting).


Later on you'll want:
- Celestial Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#celestialArmor) (and find out if the flight enhancement can be, for a price, be usable for an increased number of times per day or be made permanent; if not, you need auxillary sources of flight)
- Animated (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#animated) Mithral Heavy Steel Shield of Greater Fortification (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#fortification) (first get Animated Shield, of course; then add the Fortifications)
- Boots of Speed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bootsofSpeed)
- Ring of Blinking (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#blinking) (while Blinking, you strike as Invisible and thus enemies are vulnerable to your Sneak Attacks if they can't see Invisible!)
- Ring of Freedom of Movement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#freedomofMovement) (real duh lategame)
- Crystalmask of Mindarmor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/armorAndShields.htm#mindarmor)
- Items boosting any skills you might be using (Hide, Move Silently, Spot, Listen, Search, Disable Device, etc.)
- Dusty Rose & Pale Green Prism Ioun Stones (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#iounStones) (I always get Iridescent Spindle eventually too)

Obvious +6 Str, Con & Dex (and perhaps Wis) items and appropriate Tomes/Manuals for the Inherent bonus. +1 weapons with tons of weapon enhancements on them and obvious higher enhancement versions of your Rings of Protection, Amulets of Natural Armor, Cloaks of Resistance and such.

Helm of Teleportation is also worth considering (though bloody expensive), and buying Pearls of Power for your spellcasters in exchange for them using spellslots such as MIND BLANK, Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestment (Cleric spell) on you would be quite smart (provided you can trust them). You obviously want some source of See Invisibility; perhaps have it Permanencied on you or something.



Weapon Focus requires BAB +1. Swap around Improved Initiative and Weapon Focus. Otherwise seems right. Next level is level 2 in Rogue picking Improved Two-Weapon Fighting

Yeah I was thinking of getting +1 light weapons and mithral breastplate for sure and definitely a str or con boost item. I do agree the ring of protection and cloak of resistance will definitely help. Also thats a good point on the Longbow because since i have high Dex i would make a decent archer if the situation calls on it. Also thanks for the advice for late game items, those will come in handy when i get the money.

Also i was rethinking my build and i know I'm using the variants for the rogue and fighter, but did i do it right? Like for the martial rogue when does he actually get the bonus feats, when he is suppose to get his sneak attack? so 1st, 3rd, and etc.? How about the SA Thug Fighter? the thug variant doesnt get his bonus feat at 1st, so does that mean i don't get SA til lvl 2 right? Therefore, if I'm a SA Thug Fighter, i would gain SA when i should gain a bonus feat at 2nd, 4th, and etc?

Also another sad thing the DM said was that there will be xp penalties for multiclassing? is that going to be hard for me to lvl? I never used xp penalties :smallfrown:

[Greenish]

Also another sad thing the DM said was that there will be xp penalties for multiclassing? is that going to be hard for me to lvl?The DM hates your concept and fighters in general. Play nice and pick a caster, like he wishes you to do. :smalltongue:

[Eldariel]

Also i was rethinking my build and i know I'm using the variants for the rogue and fighter, but did i do it right? Like for the martial rogue when does he actually get the bonus feats, when he is suppose to get his sneak attack? so 1st, 3rd, and etc.? How about the SA Thug Fighter? the thug variant doesnt get his bonus feat at 1st, so does that mean i don't get SA til lvl 2 right? Therefore, if I'm a SA Thug Fighter, i would gain SA when i should gain a bonus feat at 2nd, 4th, and etc?

No, they use the standard progression. As you can see on the site, Rogue says "Feats as Fighter" and Fighter says "Sneak Attack as Rogue"; so use the Rogue-progressions for SA and Fighter-progressions on Feats.


Also another sad thing the DM said was that there will be xp penalties for multiclassing? is that going to be hard for me to lvl? I never used xp penalties :smallfrown:

Hm. This is a major problem. You'd need your DM to approve Fighter as the favored class of Wood Elves (it makes 100% sense but as written, the class chosen happens to be Ranger; frowntown) and stick to only 2 levels of Rogue (not so bad, you can take 2nd level of Barbarian to get Uncanny Dodge instead).

Only other option you really have is playing Human which in turn ****s over your stats something fierce in this particular case, or simply going Sneak Attack Thug Fighter 20 (which is reasonable, of course), with perhaps a small dip in Ranger (which is Favored Class and thus doesn't grant penalties).

If you can't get him to relent, I'd probably go:
Ranger 1/Fighter X/Ranger 2 (picking Rapid Shot)

The reason for the Ranger-levels is to get Spot & Listen in class, along with the obvious Hide and company (and maximum skillpoints on level 1). It's favored class so it grants you no XP penalties.

The only other option is going 50/50 on Rogue/Fighter (which loses way too much BAB and Sneak Attack) or, as mentioned, getting Fighter as a favored class somehow (if you could get it for a feat, that'd be fine; you have a somewhat idle feat spent on Improved Initiative anyways). All your multiclassing would provide you with 0 XP penalty if Fighter was your favored class.

[ranger557]

No, they use the standard progression. As you can see on the site, Rogue says "Feats as Fighter" and Fighter says "Sneak Attack as Rogue"; so use the Rogue-progressions for SA and Fighter-progressions on Feats.



Hm. This is a major problem. You'd need your DM to approve Fighter as the favored class of Wood Elves (it makes 100% sense but as written, the class chosen happens to be Ranger; frowntown) and stick to only 2 levels of Rogue (not so bad, you can take 2nd level of Barbarian to get Uncanny Dodge instead).

Only other option you really have is playing Human which in turn ****s over your stats something fierce in this particular case, or simply going Sneak Attack Thug Fighter 20 (which is reasonable, of course), with perhaps a small dip in Ranger (which is Favored Class and thus doesn't grant penalties).

If you can't get him to relent, I'd probably go:
Ranger 1/Fighter X/Ranger 2 (picking Rapid Shot)

The reason for the Ranger-levels is to get Spot & Listen in class, along with the obvious Hide and company (and maximum skillpoints on level 1). It's favored class so it grants you no XP penalties.

The only other option is going 50/50 on Rogue/Fighter (which loses way too much BAB and Sneak Attack) or, as mentioned, getting Fighter as a favored class somehow (if you could get it for a feat, that'd be fine; you have a somewhat idle feat spent on Improved Initiative anyways). All your multiclassing would provide you with 0 XP penalty if Fighter was your favored class.

Hey, thanks for the clarifcation on those varaints, i wasnt sure but rechecked it and said doh lol. But how about the thug, it says no fighter bonus feat at 1st so do i still get my SA?

Also, i got the email back from the DM and he said no he doesnt want to change it because "it would give injustice to the wood elf", i suppose. So im thinking of going that ranger route with fighter, like Rng2/Ftr18? So i can get those skills. Or i could go Ftr20 but i wished the thug got tumble, oh well :/. Also i guess i need to get TWF feats as soon as possible, so lvl 6 i should get ITWF instead of WS right?

[Eldariel]

Also, i got the email back from the DM and he said no he doesnt want to change it because "it would give injustice to the wood elf", i suppose. So im thinking of going that ranger route with fighter, like Rng2/Ftr18? So i can get those skills. Or i could go Ftr20 but i wished the thug got tumble, oh well :/. Also i guess i need to get TWF feats as soon as possible, so lvl 6 i should get ITWF instead of WS right?

Ranger 1/Fighter -> with second and third level of Ranger somewhere in there is what I'd do ('cause Fighter 18 gives you nothing while Ranger at least gives you skills and Endurance; also note how you can use Wands of Ranger spells thanks to the Ranger levels even tho you aren't high enough level to use them).

And the Thug doesn't alter your Sneak Attack progression at all. You'd lose a feat but since you don't get those, all you lose are heavier armors and shields for some extra skills (the variants explicitly state they can be used together so it works; basically, more skillful, Rogue-like nimble less armored Fighter). But yeah, you'd lose 1st feat but since you have no 1st feat to lose and yet it's stated you can still take it, you simply lose nothing on that note.


Feats should be:
1. TWF
3. Weapon Focus
6. ITWF
9. Weapon Specialization
12. GTWF
15. Greater Weapon Focus
18. Greater Weapon Specialization

With Rapid Shot on the level where you get the 2nd Ranger-level. I suppose you could get TWF from it to free up a feat but I don't see what you could really take that would help with that one. Rapid Shot gives you tons more free versatility and given you're an Elf anyways, would be kinda strange not to be pro with a bow, too.

[Coidzor]

One thing you can do is be a race with a bite attack, like Darfellan (or spend a feat as a warforged, or dip totemist, even) and put the +1 property "Mouthpick" on your secondary weapon.

Bam. Now you can dual-wield two 2-handed weapons without needing more than 2 arms.

This doesn't really do much to address the whole feat tax and to-hit issues though. And can make it worse in the case of the Warforged. But Barbarian + Totemist opens up the nifty Totem Rager PrC.

Something like (Warforged) Spirit Lion, Wolf Totem Barbarian 2/Fighter 2/Ranger 2 could be a nice base for this, especially if paired with an inspire courage/dragonfire inspiration bard or PrCing/dipping for extra damage dice, such as from scout's skirmish, for instance.

With 2 Flaws it'd be

Flaw1 - Jaws of Death (add bite attack) if Warforged
Flaw2 - Power Attack
Ranger 1 - Track (or trapfinding!) - 1st level - Improved bullrush/Combat Reflexes
Ranger 2 - TWF
Barbarian 1 - 3rd level - Extra Rage
Barbarian 2 - Improved Trip
Fighter 1 - X (could go wild cohort for kicks in another feat slot & use this instead for filler/if flaws are not allowed... or try for Knockdown)
Fighter 2 - Y (could go with Improved Two Weapon Fighting, or just grab gloves of the balanced hand for effective Improved TWF & use magic item compendium stacking rules)
6th level - Shocktrooper

I believe it's a RAW adaptation to adapt PrCs that progress sneak attack or sudden strike to have them instead progress skirmish if that's what you used to qualify for the precision damage dice requirements if there were any...

Most of this is going to just be from the charging though. But with pounce & the possibility of whirling frenzy rage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ), you can at least reliably imitate a blender and from there use the rest of your levels to do something else if you have the stats to afford it & don't let your BAB drop too far.

Like, say, pick up Cleave & put some skillpoints into it & turn your character into a pseudo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=211691)-bard (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9830.0). Then you could provide your own source of extra damage & buff any allies too.

[ranger557]

Ranger 1/Fighter -> with second and third level of Ranger somewhere in there is what I'd do ('cause Fighter 18 gives you nothing while Ranger at least gives you skills and Endurance; also note how you can use Wands of Ranger spells thanks to the Ranger levels even tho you aren't high enough level to use them).

And the Thug doesn't alter your Sneak Attack progression at all. You'd lose a feat but since you don't get those, all you lose are heavier armors and shields for some extra skills (the variants explicitly state they can be used together so it works; basically, more skillful, Rogue-like nimble less armored Fighter). But yeah, you'd lose 1st feat but since you have no 1st feat to lose and yet it's stated you can still take it, you simply lose nothing on that note.


Feats should be:
1. TWF
3. Weapon Focus
6. ITWF
9. Weapon Specialization
12. GTWF
15. Greater Weapon Focus
18. Greater Weapon Specialization

With Rapid Shot on the level where you get the 2nd Ranger-level. I suppose you could get TWF from it to free up a feat but I don't see what you could really take that would help with that one. Rapid Shot gives you tons more free versatility and given you're an Elf anyways, would be kinda strange not to be pro with a bow, too.

I was thinking that ranger would work well with the fighter for the skill points but totally forgot about the ability to use divine magic, but dont i have to be a 4th lvl ranger to do that? Also a build like ranger4 or 3 would be good to have in conjunction with my fighter levels? So would Rng1/Ftr5 be a good build or should i put more ranger lvls sooner?

Also yeah i was thinking the same thing for the feats, TWF is need as fast as possible because of the fact that WF and WS tree is good but not that crucial for higher levels right?

[Coidzor]

I was thinking that ranger would work well with the fighter for the skill points but totally forgot about the ability to use divine magic, but dont i have to be a 4th lvl ranger to do that? Also a build like ranger4 or 3 would be good to have in conjunction with my fighter levels? So would Rng1/Ftr5 be a good build or should i put more ranger lvls sooner?

Also yeah i was thinking the same thing for the feats, TWF is need as fast as possible because of the fact that WF and WS tree is good but not that crucial for higher levels right?

If you're not using the mystic ranger variant class, yes, to cast spells you have to be at least 4th level. However, you can still use wands with the spells on your class's spell list even as a 1st level ranger.

As for Weapon Focus & Weapon Specialization, you can actually replicate most of that with the single Knowledge Devotion Feat, so long as you can devote skillpoints to covering the most relevant enemy types (depending upon campaign, generally Nature, Local, Arcana, and then Religion for the majority of enemies) Even if you roll poorly, knowledge devotion gives you the same benefits as both the basic weapon focus & weapon specialization. That is, +1 to hit and +1 to damage. Untyped too, so it's multiplied on a crit.

[Eldariel]

I was thinking that ranger would work well with the fighter for the skill points but totally forgot about the ability to use divine magic, but dont i have to be a 4th lvl ranger to do that? Also a build like ranger4 or 3 would be good to have in conjunction with my fighter levels? So would Rng1/Ftr5 be a good build or should i put more ranger lvls sooner?

Also yeah i was thinking the same thing for the feats, TWF is need as fast as possible because of the fact that WF and WS tree is good but not that crucial for higher levels right?

You need TWF feats as fast as possible because extra attack is, on average, going to deal more damage than +2 on all your other attacks. This is questionable on your 3rd iterative (GTWF) but true otherwise.

And as Coidzor said, while you can't cast divine spells as Ranger 1, you can use spell trigger items of Ranger spells (such as the ever-important Wand of Cure Light Wounds). Magic Item section in the DMG (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#spellTrigger) says the following:
"Spell Trigger

Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it’s even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Anyone with a spell on his or her spell list knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell. (This is the case even for a character who can’t actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin.) The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. "

So 1st level Ranger can use Wands of Ranger spells, such as Lesser Restoration, Cure Light Wounds and company. This gives you some more self-sufficiency and versatility. It also gives you better perceptional skills like Spot & Listen which is obviously superuseful.

And yeah, Ranger 1/Fighter 5 is what I'd suggest thus far. More Ranger later but right now you want those Sneak Attack dice.


If you're not using the mystic ranger variant class, yes, to cast spells you have to be at least 4th level. However, you can still use wands with the spells on your class's spell list even as a 1st level ranger.

As for Weapon Focus & Weapon Specialization, you can actually replicate most of that with the single Knowledge Devotion Feat, so long as you can devote skillpoints to covering the most relevant enemy types (depending upon campaign, generally Nature, Local, Arcana, and then Religion for the majority of enemies) Even if you roll poorly, knowledge devotion gives you the same benefits as both the basic weapon focus & weapon specialization. That is, +1 to hit and +1 to damage. Untyped too, so it's multiplied on a crit.

Why do you think nobody has mentioned KDev, Melee Weapon Mastery or any of that, and I'm suggesting Weapon Specialization? Here's an excerpt from the OP:

Reason why is because only PHB, DMG, and FRCS books are allowed only, so real basic. I know and have read that i can be a cleric or wizard to be a better fighter but i just want to keep it old school lol kind of.

So we are starting at lvl 6 and have 32 point buy, and im thinking of going TWF but never really tried, so what are your thoughts and suggestions, thanks and happy gaming! :)

Just saying. :smallwink:

[Coidzor]

Why do you think nobody has mentioned KDev, Melee Weapon Mastery or any of that, and I'm suggesting Weapon Specialization?

Because they didn't feel like completing his education in just how bad those feats are. :smallwink:

[herrhauptmann]

Reason why is because only PHB, DMG, and FRCS books are allowed only,




Im not sure but again only the FRCS book is allowed, not the othere :/. Also i dont think he is allowing any dragon material as of now lol. However, Im thinking of goind rogue/fighter now, instead of the ranger part since it doesnt boost my TWF that much, but thanks though.

Is it only the book: Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting?
Or any of the many Forgotten realms books?

Because Craven (champions of ruin) and Teflammar Shadowlord (unapproachable east) are both from FR books.

[Eldariel]

Is it only the book: Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting?
Or any of the many Forgotten realms books?

Because Craven (champions of ruin) and Teflammar Shadowlord (unapproachable east) are both from FR books.

This was answered few posts back: only FRCS.

[herrhauptmann]

This was answered few posts back: only FRCS.

It was a phrasing issue for me. I did quote the same post you did after all...

The FRCS= 1 book.
Material from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting= many books.
And even in all that, there isn't much to help a TWF character (most of which is in the FRCS). Especially if he doesn't want to use that light weapon TWF pounce feat that some barbarians can take.

[Eldariel]

It was a phrasing issue for me. I did quote the same post you did after all...

The FRCS= 1 book.
Material from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting= many books.

Sorry if I was unclear. I was saying FRCS as in the book is all that's allowed from Forgotten Realms:

yeah i was thinking the same thing to go Rog1 and Barb1 and then 4 more in Ftr. However, I got news that he is cool about variants but he needs to look over them, and so i sent him the link about them. If he says yes, then I think Rog1/Barb1/Ftr4 would work good. Also he finally said that only the FRCS is the only book he is using from that setting.

[ranger557]

Hey guys, been busy so sorry for the late reply. For the books, yeah its only the FRCS book. Also yeah some of those hardcore builds sounds cool and i do know what feats aren't that great, but this game is a little too core-ish for those builds lol. I finally decided that I am going Rng1/SA Thug Ftr5 and see how that goes. Thanks all for the support and help, take care and happy gaming! :)