ramifications for change (d4 casters)

[big teej]

I'm working on designing my own setting. long story short, I'm considering mixing a few things up for it.

something I'm considering doing is changing how wizards work. (possibly sorcerers as well)

and I'm here to find out just what the ramifications of such a change would be.


the idea I'm working with is that there are several wizard "colleges"

one for each school of magic.

this means there are NO generalist wizards.

furthermore. the specilization is extreme.


tl;dr
here's what I plan on doing to the wizard.
at creation, the player must choose 1 (uno, one, single) school of magic.
they may only have spells in their spellbook of this school, they may still use wands and scrolls of other schools, but they can only cast out of their specific school.


thoughts?

as for sorcerers, same principal (can only pick spells from 1 school) but in the event that they have more spells known than there are spells of that school, they may pick from others.

thoughts?

[Boci]

Its been partially done, look at the dread necromancer. But, they still got some cross class spells, most notably and importantly dispel magic.

[Vandicus]

It seems like a highly specific nerf to two classes(and a pretty harsh one at that, putting them perhaps at tier 4). No player would play them when there are so many other tier 1-3 options.

*EDIT

Its been partially done, look at the dread necromancer. But, they still got some cross class spells, most notably and importantly dispel magic.

The dread necromancer got better hd, all his spells already known, and useful class features. If the dread becomes undead, they can even heal themselves.

[Vladislav]

It's balanced, but IMO, boring. If I wanted to play a character who only has a small number of schticks and repeats them all over again, I'd play a Barbarian or Warlock. Gimping the Sorcerer seems especially uncalled for, as this class is narrow enough to begin with.

How about this: Wizards can learn spells outside their specialization school, but those spells count as +1 level. So if a Transmuter wants to learn Mage Armor, for example, it counts as a 2nd level spell for him.

[Ralcos]

Well, you can just make Sorcerers into those that are prosecuted for being "the generalists", maybe being born from a love of two differing wizards. He/She'll be a hermit! Hiding his/her powers from the Collages!
I'm just brainstorming, so don't aim your rifles at the Kobold.

[Corlindale]

It sounds like it could be a pretty cool and flavourful change. It's a bit like how Warhammer Fantasy works, I think.

Balance-wise, you should of course be aware that this change is a severe nerf for arcane casters - especially if clerics and druids keep the access to their entire spell list. Also it would make some specializations vastly superior to others, to an even greater extent than they normally are (Diviners would be almost useless in combat scenarios, for instance, whereas Conjuration has a ton of versatility).

I think I would consider making all 0th and 1st level spells (maybe 2nd too) generally available to everyone, to represent that all colleges can learn some magical basics, but restrict higher level spells in the way you suggested so that each college still has a distinct flavour. And perhaps invent a feat that can grant access to a single spell outside your specialization.

[big teej]

It sounds like it could be a pretty cool and flavourful change. It's a bit like how Warhammer Fantasy works, I think.

Balance-wise, you should of course be aware that this change is a severe nerf for arcane casters - especially if clerics and druids keep the access to their entire spell list. Also it would make some specializations vastly superior to others, to an even greater extent than they normally are (Diviners would be almost useless in combat scenarios, for instance, whereas Conjuration has a ton of versatility).

I think I would consider making all 0th and 1st level spells (maybe 2nd too) generally available to everyone, to represent that all colleges can learn some magical basics, but restrict higher level spells in the way you suggested so that each college still has a distinct flavour. And perhaps invent a feat that can grant access to a single spell outside your specialization.

the warhammer thing is actually pretty spot on. ya caught me :smallredface:

I like how alot of things in warhammer are set up, and more than a few of them are making their bastardized way into my setting.

I also like the idea of 0-2nd level spells being universal is a good idea as well.

[Fouredged Sword]

I would suggest that if you did this you simply make all non specialty spells require a higher spell slot to cast.

Or better yet, give wizards 1.5 times as many slots, but make non school spells take two slots.

[Drachasor]

I don't think it would be balanced. The schools are decidedly NOT balanced with respect to each other.

It would be better to come up with a class like the Beguiler or Dread Necromancer for each school (or just some more options like that).

[Corlindale]

By the way, a less severe option could be to make the way Psions work your inspiration. So you'd keep a general spell-list available to everyone, but then you could hand-pick a number of the unique, cool and "school-defining" spells and merely restrict those to the specific specializations. It's a bit more work, but this way it would be less crippling to pick "weak" specializations like Divination, though it retains the importance of the college affiliation.

[Silva Stormrage]

I would also suggest coming up with homebrew classes for the other schools. Or you could find homebrew for them.

Conjuration:
Transmutation:
Divination: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Farseer_(3.5e_Class)
Illusion + Enchantment: Beguilers
Necromancy: Dread Necromancers
Abjuration:
Evocation: Warmage

[Nohwl]

illusion would be a real good choice because of shadow evocation and shadow conjuration.

[Drachasor]

Transmutation actually has a lot of ways to go (it is one of the most powerful schools). One way would be to convert the Dread Necromancy into a Construct Master, using similar rules for control over constructs that govern undead control. Undead and Constructs are very similar, so it should balance itself out pretty easy. Also allows a minion-using class for Good-aligned characters. Anyhow, that's a quick and dirty way to make one class.

[Vladislav]

There's a PrC called Effigy Master (Complete Arcane, IIRC), you can take a page from there.

[Drachasor]

There's a PrC called Effigy Master (Complete Arcane, IIRC), you can take a page from there.

I think it would be simpler to just more or less copy the undead controlling/creating mechanics. They are definitely easier to use than the default rules for constructs.

[Urpriest]

as for sorcerers, same principal (can only pick spells from 1 school) but in the event that they have more spells known than there are spells of that school, they may pick from others.

thoughts?

There's a reason they got rid of this sort of rule for the Wu Jen: any rule that depends on how many spells there are in existence is indeterminate because it changes based on how many books you have access to, and keeps you from ever adding anything new into the system. Don't do it.

[NNescio]

It seems like a highly specific nerf to two classes(and a pretty harsh one at that, putting them perhaps at tier 4). No player would play them when there are so many other tier 1-3 options.

*EDIT


The dread necromancer got better hd, all his spells already known, and useful class features. If the dread becomes undead, they can even heal themselves.

Conjurers and Transmuters are still Tier 1, even with core-only spells.

[Fouredged Sword]

I would give transmuters a limited self transformation class feature, like a wildshape.

Or let them impart some mutation like effects to other characters as SLAs.

Or let them get a limited number of transmutations persisted on themselves per day for free and access to healing spells as a transmutation effect.

this would turn them into a melee gishy character. They would still be a viable character even if completely restricted to transmutation spells.

I don't see a trasmuter = golem conection.

[Drachasor]

I don't see a trasmuter = golem conection.

Animate Rope and the like? Transmutation is a HUGE school.

[Kuma Kode]

I don't think it would be balanced. The schools are decidedly NOT balanced with respect to each other.

This is the core problem with this idea. I used a similar idea for my setting, where the schools of magic are arranged in an alignment grid of sorts. Specialists have access to only three schools: the school of their specialty and the two adjacent to it.

You would have to essentially rewrite the magic system to balance it. The schools simply are not balanced amongst each other. You could do your best to arrange them to have more synergy or possibly have more powerful schools require more focus, but it would be a lot of work.

So much work, in fact, you may just want to look into building a simplified magic system from scratch. Rid yourself of the original schools and all their problems, and redo the casters to have more focus, less power (if you're interested in lowering their tier, as well), and turn each "school" into its own class.

But as has been said, something must be done about the CoDzillas, or your changes will fail to accomplish any sort of balance at all.

[Big Fau]

I don't think it would be balanced. The schools are decidedly NOT balanced with respect to each other.

It would be better to come up with a class like the Beguiler or Dread Necromancer for each school (or just some more options like that).

Exactly. Pick Conjuration or Transmutation, and you lose almost nothing.

[Boci]

Exactly. Pick Conjuration or Transmutation, and you lose almost nothing.

Dispel magic being one of the few things you do.

[big teej]

There's a reason they got rid of this sort of rule for the Wu Jen: any rule that depends on how many spells there are in existence is indeterminate because it changes based on how many books you have access to, and keeps you from ever adding anything new into the system. Don't do it.

well given that I'm not setting anything in stone until I possess every 3.5 and 3.0 sourcebook published, I don't quite see that being a problem.

[ericgrau]

It seems more annoying than anything, and it becomes dramatically less effective one players search through a dozen different books to get enough spells to choose from. Even in PHB only you're forcing the player to rely on a handful of spells to spam all day, which isn't usually much of a nerf in combat, just boring and preventing them from doing other interesting things. I think you gotta remember that it's a game and fun trumps all else. What's your goal exactly?

[Tvtyrant]

My suggestion is to ignore schools and focus on abilities; a Polymorph based caster would be OP in Transmutation, but without a lot of other self-buffing spells it would be equal only to a Tier 3. An animated object/construct one could work if you make them better, and another for transmutation buffs. Then have an Ultimate Magus class for people that want an old school caster.