Suel Arcanamach can take Sorcerer only spells?

[Cieyrin]

I got the urge to look at Suel Arcanamachs again, silly gishes that they are, when the thought crossed my mind that, given they cast as sorcerers and draw from the sorcerer list, that'd include their exclusives, yes? Provided it's in Abjuration, Divination, Illusion or Transmutation, the way SA reads makes it seem like they could pick up some of the spells. No Wings of Cover but the Primal chain is open, as is possibly Arcane Fusion, which could work nicely for a rapid self buffing, depending on how strict we're being with Universal spells and SA spell restrictions.

So, am I misinterpreting or is this a neat little bonus for the Arcanamach's hat?

[Shadowknight12]

No, the Suel Arcanamach is not a sorcerer (nor a wizard). Spells that are exclusive for sorcerers or wizards are beyond the reach of what a Suel Arcanamach can learn.

[Acanous]

but any spell open to Sor/Wiz is fair game?

I dunno, I'd rule that they could get Sor only spells. Sort of like a Master Specialist getting Wizard only spells.

[Morph Bark]

but any spell open to Sor/Wiz is fair game?

I dunno, I'd rule that they could get Sor only spells. Sort of like a Master Specialist getting Wizard only spells.

Except that a Master Specialist advances Wizard casting, while Suel Arcanamach has its own spell list.

[FMArthur]

I don't quite get the appeal of this class. Why would you not take 10 levels of Battle Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer) instead? It can start at 1st level instead of 7th, comes into its own much, much sooner, with spells appropriate at the levels you gain them, and can keep improving after 10th level. It doesn't require you to spend feats. The Suel Arcanamach's fluff is not nearly outside of the purview of ordinary sorcery (really it's not even unusual in old fantasy settings), but still serves to restrict entry. Armored casting is easy to get (edit: and I overlooked that you ignore light armor ASF as a Battle Sorcerer). The anti-dispel bonus only makes up for the number of external levels prior to entry, and the dispelling strike is easily replicated by the Dispelling weapon property (which can be upgraded into Greater Dispelling). Is this class liked so much because of free Extend Spell? :smallconfused:

[Zaq]

Suel gets 5th level spells after 8 levels, compared to 10 for Battle Sorcerer . . . and the rest of their list is as correspondingly fast (2nd level spells at 2nd, 3rd level spells at 4th, and 4th level spells at 6th), so it's basically a spell level ahead of the Battle Sorc for most of their respective careers, assuming that you enter Battle Sorc when you would enter Suel Archanamach. Battle Sorc's not a bad alternative if you want to save the feats, though. (Suels also get better skills, though not so much better to be worth the cost of entry alone.)

[Cieyrin]

Except that a Master Specialist advances Wizard casting, while Suel Arcanamach has its own spell list.

Not quite a spell list, as they get to draw from any source with Sor/Wiz spells of those schools, which is really nice in comparison to other prestige class with their own casting progression.


I don't quite get the appeal of this class. Why would you not take 10 levels of Battle Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer) instead? It can start at 1st level instead of 7th, comes into its own much, much sooner, with spells appropriate at the levels you gain them, and can keep improving after 10th level. It doesn't require you to spend feats. The Suel Arcanamach's fluff is not nearly outside of the purview of ordinary sorcery (really it's not even unusual in old fantasy settings), but still serves to restrict entry. Armored casting is easy to get (edit: and I overlooked that you ignore light armor ASF as a Battle Sorcerer). The anti-dispel bonus only makes up for the number of external levels prior to entry, and the dispelling strike is easily replicated by the Dispelling weapon property (which can be upgraded into Greater Dispelling). Is this class liked so much because of free Extend Spell? :smallconfused:

Arcanamach has better saves and skills, Tenacious Spells stacks with CL boosts (Hello, Martial Arcanist :smallbiggrin:) and the free Extend is as if Extend Spell is applied, so you can apply it again if you wish. The ASF reduction isn't locked to a specific armor type, so Mithral Full Plate or Breastplates are viable.

This isn't to say Battle Sorcerer doesn't have its perks and beyond level 3 or 4, you probably don't want to stay in SA, as the rest of the class is pretty bare. The primary draws are the free Extend for long term buffs and Tenacious Spells keeping you from getting dispelled, which is often the problem for Half-Caster Gishes normally that the Arcanamach doesn't also suffer.

Also, lame on the no Sorcerer exclusives. Arcanamachs are still cool, just not cooler than I originally thought. :smallfrown:

[Ernir]

I don't quite get the appeal of this class. Why would you not take 10 levels of Battle Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer) instead? It can start at 1st level instead of 7th, comes into its own much, much sooner, with spells appropriate at the levels you gain them, and can keep improving after 10th level. It doesn't require you to spend feats. The Suel Arcanamach's fluff is not nearly outside of the purview of ordinary sorcery (really it's not even unusual in old fantasy settings), but still serves to restrict entry. Armored casting is easy to get (edit: and I overlooked that you ignore light armor ASF as a Battle Sorcerer). The anti-dispel bonus only makes up for the number of external levels prior to entry, and the dispelling strike is easily replicated by the Dispelling weapon property (which can be upgraded into Greater Dispelling). Is this class liked so much because of free Extend Spell? :smallconfused:

I have to agree, the class... isn't that awesome. It gets neat stuff and a tighter spell advancement given certain constraints, but if the point of comparison is the Sorcerer, it obviously isn't likely to measure up.

My main beef with it is that the "level 16 problem" hits it hard. Knowing that your build just capped out when your fullcaster buddies are starting to foam in anticipation of getting their 9ths... kind of sucks.

[Cieyrin]

I have to agree, the class... isn't that awesome. It gets neat stuff and a tighter spell advancement given certain constraints, but if the point of comparison is the Sorcerer, it obviously isn't likely to measure up.

My main beef with it is that the "level 16 problem" hits it hard. Knowing that your build just capped out when your fullcaster buddies are starting to foam in anticipation of getting their 9ths... kind of sucks.

As I said, you don't necessarily want to stay in SA after 3rd or 4th level. PrC out to something that advances casting, since there aren't really features beyond that point. And yes, if we want to compare it to a Tier 2, it's gonna look pathetic. Arcanamach was made before UA came out, I'm fairly sure, and has some advantages to it over Battle Sorcerer but it's never gonna really compare if you hold it to those expectations.

[Tvtyrant]

I don't quite get the appeal of this class. Why would you not take 10 levels of Battle Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer) instead? It can start at 1st level instead of 7th, comes into its own much, much sooner, with spells appropriate at the levels you gain them, and can keep improving after 10th level. It doesn't require you to spend feats. The Suel Arcanamach's fluff is not nearly outside of the purview of ordinary sorcery (really it's not even unusual in old fantasy settings), but still serves to restrict entry. Armored casting is easy to get (edit: and I overlooked that you ignore light armor ASF as a Battle Sorcerer). The anti-dispel bonus only makes up for the number of external levels prior to entry, and the dispelling strike is easily replicated by the Dispelling weapon property (which can be upgraded into Greater Dispelling). Is this class liked so much because of free Extend Spell? :smallconfused:

Because it lets people take other classes and still get some of that caster goodness I suppose; a Dungeoncrasher Fighter with 10 levels of Suel Arcanamach is almost as versatile as a Bard, and has much greater damage output. It can use its spells to do its schtick better, or to cover other eventualities. It even leaves room for some Warhulk levels.

[dextercorvia]

True, but if you wanted to take 5-6 levels of melee first, you could just still take 14 effective sorcerer levels and end up with 7th level spells instead of just 5ths.

I believe that Paladin4/Duskblade2/Suel4/AbjChamp5/Spellsword1/DragonDisciple4 is a fairly normal Suel build. In the same vein, wouldn't a Paladin heavy Sorcadin build give similar melee power with better spell power?

To answer the OP: No. They must pick from the Sorcerer/Wizard list. In order to get a Sorcerer only spell, it would have to specify spells available to a Sorcerer. Cf. Draconic Legacy for a feat intensive way to get Sorcerer only spells.

[FMArthur]

Because it lets people take other classes and still get some of that caster goodness I suppose; a Dungeoncrasher Fighter with 10 levels of Suel Arcanamach is almost as versatile as a Bard, and has much greater damage output. It can use its spells to do its schtick better, or to cover other eventualities. It even leaves room for some Warhulk levels.

It "leaves room" because it just stops at mid-level casting. The extra freedom you think you're getting out of it is an illusion. If you play a Battle Sorcerer, you're not stuck in it until level 20; you can certainly stop at 10th level and enjoy identical freedom to a Suel's with a wider spell list and more spells per day. The Sorcerer having the added option of continuing to grow as a spellcaster doesn't restrict his other options.

[dextercorvia]

I think it is a relic of "Thou shalt not lose casting levels." By completing a 10 level class, there is a reduction in guilt. You can go to sleep thinking, "I'm not a bad optimizer." Whereas, if you only get 14 levels of sorcerer casting, you have to scourge your self while saying over 9000 hail PunPuns before you can atone.

[Tvtyrant]

It "leaves room" because it just stops at mid-level casting. The extra freedom you think you're getting out of it is an illusion. If you play a Battle Sorcerer, you're not stuck in it until level 20; you can certainly stop at 10th level and enjoy identical freedom to a Suel's with a wider spell list and more spells per day. The Sorcerer having the added option of continuing to grow as a spellcaster doesn't restrict his other options.

Its gets spells faster then that alternative does. At level 14 the build I mentioned would have 5th level casting, the battle sorc would just be getting fourths. I'm not saying its even as good, but getting 5ths two levels early means a lot more power during those levels in play.

[dextercorvia]

Its gets spells faster then that alternative does. At level 14 the build I mentioned would have 5th level casting, the battle sorc would just be getting fourths. I'm not saying its even as good, but getting 5ths two levels early means a lot more power during those levels in play.

Unless the Battle Sorcerer started two levels earlier. Paladin4/BatlleSorcerer4/AbjurantChampion5/Spellsword1 has the same BAB as the aforementioned build, the same max level spells, but can get 3 more spell levels, while the Suel Build has just topped out.

[Tvtyrant]

Unless the Battle Sorcerer started two levels earlier. Paladin4/BatlleSorcerer4/AbjurantChampion5/Spellsword1 has the same BAB as the aforementioned build, the same max level spells, but can get 4 more spell levels, while the Suel Build has just topped out.

I don't think BaB particularly effects dungeoncrashing, as bullrushes don't use the BaB as part of its check. Your build isn't doing the same thing as mine; yours is a straight Gish while mine is a bullrusher. Also, worst case scenario you work Sublime Chord onto the end.

[Ravens_cry]

My main beef with it is that the "level 16 problem" hits it hard. Knowing that your build just capped out when your fullcaster buddies are starting to foam in anticipation of getting their 9ths... kind of sucks.
I've never played a campaign where anyone had the potential to get to ninth level spells, but I am not sure how typical that is. In such a campaign, it's not as bad.

[Drachasor]

I don't think BaB particularly effects dungeoncrashing, as bullrushes don't use the BaB as part of its check. Your build isn't doing the same thing as mine; yours is a straight Gish while mine is a bullrusher. Also, worst case scenario you work Sublime Chord onto the end.

Yeah, but what's the end effect of that bullrushing doing that the Battle Sorcerer/Paladin guy can't do?

[dextercorvia]

I don't think BaB particularly effects dungeoncrashing, as bullrushes don't use the BaB as part of its check. Your build isn't doing the same thing as mine; yours is a straight Gish while mine is a bullrusher. Also, worst case scenario you work Sublime Chord onto the end.

I'd encourage you to think about how difficult it would be to work Sublime Chord and Suel Arcanamach into the same build, and not have been better off with something else. That is a level by level straight jacket.

I agree that our builds do something different, so lets see how this works:

Fighter4/BattleSorcerer4/AbjurantChampion5/Spellsword1/Fighter+2/BattleSorcerer+4

Compare that to your idea, and what is missing is some dungeon crashing damage for a few levels at mid level. In exchange every level of spell is gotten at the same time or earlier. And, 7th level spells instead of 5th.

[Dusk Eclipse]

A 1 level dip itno Heartfire Fanner allows a Suel Arcanamach build to get the Sublime chord funsies and I think there is a feat or ACF that lets a Paladin get Bardic music.

[dextercorvia]

A 1 level dip itno Heartfire Fanner allows a Suel Arcanamach build to get the Sublime chord funsies and I think there is a feat or ACF that lets a Paladin get Bardic music.

Harmonious Knight gets Inspire Courage but not Bardic Music. Heartfire Fanner is Dragon Magazine. With the requirement for 1st level spells, it isn't much less restrictive that the Bard dip. It does give a power boost if you are going that direction. Still, encouraging Sublime Chord (10 level casting class) doesn't really sell the Suel Arcanamach (10 level casting class). If anything it smells of Oberoni.

[Dusk Eclipse]

My point with that post was to show that it isn't as difficult to add Sublime Chord to a Suel build, just that.

And concerning FMArthur's post of "why SA when Battle Sorc does it better?", I believe that if you follow that kind of logic everyone would be playing Pun Pun, The Nasty Gentleman or any other build to grace the "Campaign Smasher's list.

Yes there are better options, but that doesn't necessarily mean you must take them, besides I feel Suel Arcanamach does have a niche to fill, for example someone who started with a martial class; but as the game progresses he starts to notice magic is better and instead of re-rolling a caster or even a gish, he takes Suel Arcanamach to somewhat level the field.

And it is in my opinion a really balanced and fun class (compared to most melee prestige classes and many caster prestige classes), which is enough or me.

[dextercorvia]

My point with that post was to show that it isn't as difficult to add Sublime Chord to a Suel build, just that.

And concerning FMArthur's post of "why SA when Battle Sorc does it better?", I believe that if you follow that kind of logic everyone would be playing Pun Pun, The Nasty Gentleman or any other build to grace the "Campaign Smasher's list.

Yes there are better options, but that doesn't necessarily mean you must take them, besides I feel Suel Arcanamach does have a niche to fill, for example someone who started with a martial class; but as the game progresses he starts to notice magic is better and instead of re-rolling a caster or even a gish, he takes Suel Arcanamach to somewhat level the field.

And it is in my opinion a really balanced and fun class (compared to most melee prestige classes and many caster prestige classes), which is enough or me.

But his point is valid. You can start at ECL7 with Suel, or with Battle Sorcerer on a Full BAB base. They will be comparable (with an edge to SA) during mid levels, Battle Sorcerer will have a serious advantage at levels 18-20. But, since you don't have to wait until ECL7 to start Battle Sorcerer, you can start it at ECL5, and Rock the House against Suel at every level. Pointing out that another class fills the same niche better isn't a slippery slope to Pun-Pun land. If anything, not doing it is a trip and a fall to Don't Mess With ToB, Play a Monk Instead.

[Tvtyrant]

But his point is valid. You can start at ECL7 with Suel, or with Battle Sorcerer on a Full BAB base. They will be comparable (with an edge to SA) during mid levels, Battle Sorcerer will have a serious advantage at levels 18-20. But, since you don't have to wait until ECL7 to start Battle Sorcerer, you can start it at ECL5, and Rock the House against Suel at every level. Pointing out that another class fills the same niche better isn't a slippery slope to Pun-Pun land. If anything, not doing it is a trip and a fall to Don't Mess With ToB, Play a Monk Instead.
Two points;

1. 18-20 is the least played section of the game, and while fun for optimization purposes are hardly as useful in game as being better off in the mid levels is. By 18-20 the game has evolved into proto-epic, with Genesis and Gate coming into play.

2. This means your doing less damage (a lot less) for additional spellcasting. Sure, this proves that sorcerer is better then fighter, but its not the same concept being represented. The same niche isn't being filled, you just created a gish that happens to have the inferior version of dungeoncrashing on it.

[dextercorvia]

Okay, I didn't really challenge this before (honestly I wasn't thinking about it), but since your Suel Niche seems to be Dungeoncrasher Gish, I just was wondering how you were planning to get Skills: Concentration 4 ranks, Jump 4 ranks, Spellcraft 5 ranks, Tumble 4 ranks. and Feats: Combat Casting, Iron Will?

That is three cross class skills at max (or more) ranks for level 6. To get spellcraft on a fighter, you are going to need another feat to make it a class skill, which will eat up all of your general non racial feats. And, you will either need to be a Human or have at least 12 Int. I'm not saying this is impossible, but you are sinking serious resources into adding this particular brand of spellcasting to a Dungeoncrasher. Especially when you consider you already needed a decent Str, Con, Cha.

[Cieyrin]

Okay, I didn't really challenge this before (honestly I wasn't thinking about it), but since your Suel Niche seems to be Dungeoncrasher Gish, I just was wondering how you were planning to get Skills: Concentration 4 ranks, Jump 4 ranks, Spellcraft 5 ranks, Tumble 4 ranks. and Feats: Combat Casting, Iron Will?

That is three cross class skills at max (or more) ranks for level 6. To get spellcraft on a fighter, you are going to need another feat to make it a class skill, which will eat up all of your general non racial feats. And, you will either need to be a Human or have at least 12 Int. I'm not saying this is impossible, but you are sinking serious resources into adding this particular brand of spellcasting to a Dungeoncrasher. Especially when you consider you already needed a decent Str, Con, Cha.

4 and 5 ranks isn't hard to get even with the skills staying cross class. 4 crossclass is ECL 5, 5 is ECL 7. Big deal. Even then, Cityscape Enhancement lets you trade Ride for Tumble, which a lot of Full BABers have Ride and wouldn't otherwise use it. And Jump? PLEASE. Concentration is only Martial Study(Moment of Perfect Mind) away. That only leaves you one real hurdle, Spellcraft, which I don't consider that big of a pain.

Like the Ur Priests before him, Otyugh Hole saves the day for 3k. Combat Casting is easy to pick up, either by Duskblade or Hexblade or just taking the feat. 1 feat isn't going to break the bank. The only real problem is the fluff and time requirement with the Book or master trained in Suel battle techniques, so you may have a hurdle if your DM is a **** unlike Battle Sorcerer. On the other hand, you may have an issue if your DM doesn't like UA for being a tome of variant rules, so kinda a moot point on both fronts. And on the Str, Con, Cha front, if your gishing it up with a Battle Sorcerer, you're going to need those stats, anyways, so I don't see that as something to hold against the Arcanamach.

[dextercorvia]

4 and 5 ranks isn't hard to get even with the skills staying cross class. 4 crossclass is ECL 5, 5 is ECL 7. Big deal. Even then, Cityscape Enhancement lets you trade Ride for Tumble, which a lot of Full BABers have Ride and wouldn't otherwise use it. And Jump? PLEASE. Concentration is only Martial Study(Moment of Perfect Mind) away. That only leaves you one real hurdle, Spellcraft, which I don't consider that big of a pain.

Like the Ur Priests before him, Otyugh Hole saves the day for 3k. Combat Casting is easy to pick up, either by Duskblade or Hexblade or just taking the feat. 1 feat isn't going to break the bank. The only real problem is the fluff and time requirement with the Book or master trained in Suel battle techniques, so you may have a hurdle if your DM is a **** unlike Battle Sorcerer. On the other hand, you may have an issue if your DM doesn't like UA for being a tome of variant rules, so kinda a moot point on both fronts. And on the Str, Con, Cha front, if your gishing it up with a Battle Sorcerer, you're going to need those stats, anyways, so I don't see that as something to hold against the Arcanamach.

He was suggesting this with Fighter6. A Duskblade dip would delay entry into Suel Arcanamach, or cost him the damage from dungeoncrasher that he was quibbling with my build over. I did forget that he can trade ride for tumble, that frees him up a little bit, but his build still requires 3 non combat feats taken by level 6 (one for spellcraft as a class skill, and two required by the PrC). Like I said, it isn't impossible, but it represents a significant investment for a character planning on a melee build.

I wasn't holding up the other stats against him, just saying that in comparison to a Battle Sorcerer Build, he is going to also need a higher Int.

[Cieyrin]

Martial Study is a Fighter feat, Otyugh Hole for Iron Will and Combat Casting has no prereqs. I suppose the main problem here is Spellcraft, which either you solve with Skill Knowledge (much as I hate it since it's from a variant system that everyone forgets is how it's supposed to work) or Aerenal Focus would also work. Another alternative would be Apprentice(Martial Artist), which'll get you Concentration and Tumble as class skills.

As for Int, it's not as big a concern, as Human or Aerenal Grey Elf with base Int 12 will have adequate skill points to take care of it. 4 points in point buy isn't gonna majorly break the bank, given most games seem married to 28 point buy or higher, leaving adequate room for other stats. I'd favor Human, just due to Suels being a lost Human country, but that's more fluff than anything else.

[FMArthur]

You do get those skill points refunded in the deal because of the Suel's 2 point skill advantage, although it is a bit of a late return on your early investment.

I would still rather not spend 2 feats to get into the Suel when I'm trying to melee, but I can see now why in some circumstances why the Suel might be preferable, with the two-level lead above the same number of Battle Sorcerer levels in the spells department being the cornerstone of its niche. I can acknowledge now that it is a matter of opinion where before I was thinking it was strictly inferior. It really is a trade, though. Compared to Battle Sorc you lose at least one feat, probably another for the right skills depending on the base class, and sometimes one more if your DM doesn't permit the Otyugh Hole. You also lose access to half the spell schools, and must acquire at least +2 skill points via race and Intelligence investment.