Effectiveness of Theurges and Multiclassing in General (Pathfinder)

[StoryKeeper]

Hello there, folks. I'm trying to decide on a character for my group's next game (we'll be playing the Jade Regeant adventure path), but I'm having a little trouble trying to figure out if some of my choices are viable. Specifically, I was considering playing a cleric/sorcerer who would eventually become a mystic theurge. Pathfinder seems to have done a great job of making it worth sticking to a single class, but it almost seems like multiclassing is never a good idea these days. If I multiclass, I'll be getting all of my nifty bloodline and domain abilties (not to mention higher level spells) so much more slowly that it seems like I'll never get them.

So I guess the first part of my question is if anyone has had any experience with mystic theurges or similar in Pathfinder and if so, how did it go? Would it fit in with a bomb-heavy alchemist, a paladin, and a magus or sorcerer (I'm not sure what the last player decided on playing.)

The other thing I wanted to ask about was how everyone felt about multiclassing in general in Pathfinder. Have you found ways to make it worth it or are all of your character concepts better handled with a single class?

[Acanous]

The reason Pathfinder gave you bloodlines and scaling class abilities was to encourage people not to multi/prestige class.
It was a fix-up, because in 3.5, there was no reason NOT to multiclass- Prestige classes were *Always* more powerful than the base class.

I would reccommend you go Wizard/Druid/Theurge/Arcane Heirophant(Races of the Wild, I believe), just so you get 9th level spells on both sides of the progression, but play your character however gives you the best enjoyment.

Prestige classing will take away your base class "Bonus" stuff. The things you get for prestige classing are better anyhow, especially for casters.

[RndmNumGen]

The reason Pathfinder gave you bloodlines and scaling class abilities was to encourage people not to multi/prestige class.
It was a fix-up, because in 3.5, there was no reason NOT to multiclass- Prestige classes were *Always* more powerful than the base class.


*COUGH* Dwarven Defender *COUGH* Arcane Archer *COUGH*

So yeah, I disagree with that statement. However, that doesn't mean that there weren't a ton of prestige classes out there, and many of those were very powerful - hence why they were used so much - but a great number were simply ignored.

[meschlum]

Probably not a good idea.

Pathfinder makes single-class more interesting, NOT because multiclassing in breadth (taking classes to be proficient at many things) was overpowered, but because multiclassing in depth (taking classes to become better at one thing - namely spellcasting) was overpowered.

As a rule, in 3.0 (and afterward), multiclassing in breadth is hard, ineffective, and not overly rewarding. It's possible to make it work well, but it's not easy.

Why?

Because in order to get the required breadth, you lose a lot of power.

A cleric / sorceror mystic theurge must be at least Cl 3 / Sor 4 to start mystic theurge, so you get your first level of the prestige class at level 8.

Level 6 comparison: before you reach the PrC.

You're not a mystic theurge yet, so you're probably a Cleric 3 / Sorceror 3 (or Cleric 2 / Sorceror 4).

You cast 3 / 2 spells as a cleric (or 3) and 5 as a sorceror (or 6 / 3).

Total is 8 / 2 (Cl 3 / Sor 3) or 9 / 3 (Cl 2 / Sor 4).

As a 6th level cleric, you cast 4 / 4 / 3, so by trading down high slot spells you can do as well - or you can cast 3rd level spells, which are better.

As a 6th level sorceror, you cast 6 / 5 / 3, so by trading down high slot spells, you can do better. And you can cast 3rd level spells too.

Level 8 comparison: when you first get the PrC.


A level 8 cleric is casting 4th level spells, a sorceror is casting 3rd level spells.

Cleric: spells are 5 / 4 / 4 / 3, counting domain bonuses.
Sorceror: spells are 6 / 6 / 5 / 3

You're casting like a cleric 4 / sorceror 5, so 2nd level spells at that point.

Cleric: 4 / 3, so you could get an extra 3 level 1 sorceror spells.
Sorceror: 6 / 4, so you could get another 4 level 1 cleric spells.

Total: 10 / 7 - a cleric can cast as much as you do, simply by taking lower level spells in higher level slots. Or can cast more powerful spells. So can a sorceror.

Add in the need to have two good casting attributes for DCs and bonus spells, and being a mystic theurge is even worse!

Level 17 comparison: when you finish the PrC

Clerics have level 9 spells, sorcerors have level 8.

Cleric: 5 / 5 / 5 / 5 / 5 / 5 / 4 / 3 / 2
Sorceror: 6 / 6 / 6 / 6 / 6 / 6 / 6 / 4

You're casting like a Cleric 13 / Sorceror 14, so level 7 spells.

Cl: 5 / 5 / 5 / 5 / 4 / 3 / 2
Sor: 6 / 6 / 6 / 6 / 6 / 5 / 3

So you have a lot more low level spells.

5 level 7 spells
8 level 6 spells
10 level 5 spells
11 spells or lower levels

A cleric has 4 level 7 spells - and 5 spells of levels 8 and 9, which are much more potent.
A sorceror has 6 level 7 spells (more than you) and 4 level 8 spells, which are more powerful.


So in all, you have more spells of level 5 and below - which become relevant if you end up in a fight (or series of fights) that lasts more than 15+ rounds. And have no scrolls of high level spells (or low level spells to make up for the difference), pearls of power, etc.

Oh, and once per day, you can cast two spells at once, with +2 to the effective DC. The cleric can cast two 9th level spells per day (+2 to the DC relative to a 7th level spell). And anyone could own a Rod of Quicken, or have the feat - so you're able to 'quicken' one 6th or 7th level spell per day, then 3rd and lower level spells, instead of the two 5th and three fourth level spells the cleric can do (with 9th and 8th level slots). Wow.


Moral: it's useful only if it's better to have few, low level spells from more than one source. Instead of many high level ones from a single source. And the sources are not that different.

If (big if) clerics had all the defensive spells and sorcerors all the offensive spells, mixing the two could make sense (though teamwork between a cleric and a sorceror would be better - and they'd cast twice as many spells per round anyway!). As is... nah.

[Grendus]

Theurges are suboptimal, and rough to get into, but they aren't bad. They're still spellcasters, and they've traded depth for breadth. A Cleric/Wizard theurge has a clerics buffing and healing powers with the wizard's phenomenal cosmic power. He doesn't have quite as awesome power, but he has twice as much.

A theurge is still T1-ish. 8th level spells, and twice as many of them, go a long way. Unless you're facing off against pure powergaming T1's, it will hold it's own. The biggest problem is you can't start until level 7, and in the meantime you're not advancing meaningfully. It's more of a mid-high level build, unless you want to go early entry (illumian druid/wizard/MT/AH is wicked powerful and gets dual 9's).

[Coidzor]

It seems the main problem is that theurging still makes you have abilities that were appropriate to a level of play that the rest of the party is significantly past (barring something low, low op like a fighter picking feats poorly, but then again, there's that saying about comparing things to fighters) due to the long build-up time in order to even start theurging in most cases.

You get going. Start to get a bit of steam, and then fall on your face & have to start over again, and that's before the theurging proper starts.

When you think about it, gishing is a form of theurging, just without the benefit of getting powerful spells & abilities at a much later level than where their power was appropriate & instead usually being punished with lackluster/no abilities in exchange for keeping up both casting & BAB.

Principle difference seems to be that Pathfinder's devs finally made a half-decent gish base class in the Magus, so that having to jump through hoops & not have a build be possible until mid-to-high levels is no longer mandatory for gishes who want to do more than make their swords glow. Whereas if you want any kind of theurgery, you've gotta wait & suck in the meantime.

[Acanous]

which would be why I reccommended going Druid/Wizard/Theurge/Arcane Heirophant. You enter Theurge at 7, Heirophant at 10, and by 20 you've got dual 9th level spells and a wicked sick familiar companion.

Downside is you're a bit MAD with Int and Wisdom, but there's a feat in Dragonlance that changes divine casting to INT based, and if you can't have that, you can just focus one of your casting progressions on buffs (Self and familiar companion) so you can act as a gish AND as a batman...

[Techsmart]

Theurges are not very efficient. As stated above, Theurges don't really have a significantly larger quantity of spells per day. even if they did, the higher level spells, in power, are a lot more effective than the larger quantity of low-level sp;ells. As part of this, as compared to straight cleric, you are also sacrificing a good fort save, good hit dice, a 3/4 BAB growth, and the ability to cast all of your spells in heavy armor without any issues.
PF discourages multiclassing, but its still possible to make one or two dips in a melee build without any issues. As for casters, I would say don't take any other classes except for a prestige class that allows full casting progression (like when I convinced my dm to allow me to go Incantatrix :smallamused:), but that's a given from 3.5.

When you think about it, gishing is a form of theurging, just without the benefit of getting powerful spells & abilities at a much later level than where their power was appropriate & instead usually being punished with lackluster/no abilities in exchange for keeping up both casting & BAB.

This depends on your definition of theurging (but I won't argue this point anymore than that).
Depending on the build, gishes only sacrifice 1-2 levels of spellcasting, whereas mystic theurges sacrifice at least 3 levels of their primary casting class. Gish abilities also benefit the character while they are casting their spells. More HP and Higher BAB make it easier to hit and take a hit when casting a spell. Theurge doesnt do that for you. All it does is lets you run a little longer. Personally, I would prefer a well-made gish over a theurge.


A theurge is still T1-ish. 8th level spells, and twice as many of them, go a long way. Unless you're facing off against pure powergaming T1's, it will hold it's own. The biggest problem is you can't start until level 7, and in the meantime you're not advancing meaningfully. It's more of a mid-high level build, unless you want to go early entry (illumian druid/wizard/MT/AH is wicked powerful and gets dual 9's).

I would put theurge closer to a tier 2. Assuming equal optimization, I would say a wizard, compared from a few different levels, would usually outdo the theurge. The wizard doesn't have to deal with MAD, probably has a similar, or better, BAB, and has higher spell slots to metamagic with. Compared with a straight PF sorcerer, it would be close though.

The 9th level spells with hierophant helps, but MAD, poor BAB, and lost class features kinda hurt.

[Acanous]

I don't think poor BAB is going to be much of a hit to a multicaster, unless you really wanted to cast rays. If you DID go Dru/wiz/theurge/heirophant, your familiar companion could deliver your touch spells ANYHOW, and would be subject to any buffs you tossed on yourself.
Featwise, you could focus either on meta, or go for familiar and companion enhancing feats. (Anything that applies to a familiar applies to a familiar companion, by the wording. So grab Draconic Familiar and use the bonus HD from the companion side to advance it a category)
if you went the Heirophant route, you'd stay T1. Just theurge would knock you to T2, or even T3 if it's Sorctheurge.

If you ARE going SorcTheurge, consider Favored Soul for your secondary. You're going to be losing full casting anyhow, might as well cha-focus and not be MAD.

[Grendus]

Gishing has the advantage of making you a fairly competent melee combatant. What you lose in BAB you more than make up for in offensive spells (Belker Claws owns, Steeldance effectively gives you two free longsword attacks, Fists of Stone is like getting Righteous Might as a first level spell and has a fixed duration so it's great for a wand). The main difference is that there's a lot of overlap between arcane and divine spells, but a well built gish covers a lot of the spellcaster's weaknesses without opening new ones. The sorcadin only loses two caster levels and two points of BAB, not a bad trade off for charisma to saves, mostly d10 hit dice, and being able to cast abjurations as a swift action. Throw in Prepared Spellcaster so you can learn Greater Luminous Armor and you're set (alternatively, I'm a little fuzzy on exalted spells but I think they're eligible to be put in a runestaff. Make up a runestaff of protection with a bunch of wards, then UMD Greater Luminous Armor onto the sorcerer's spell list) - armor through the roof, saves through the roof, and phenominal cosmic power. Not quite as durable as a paranoid wizard, but very fun and flavorful.

Sorc/Soul Theurge would suck without early entry, though. You'd be an 8th level caster with only third level spells. That's just beyond pitiful.



I would put theurge closer to a tier 2. Assuming equal optimization, I would say a wizard, compared from a few different levels, would usually outdo the theurge. The wizard doesn't have to deal with MAD, probably has a similar, or better, BAB, and has higher spell slots to metamagic with. Compared with a straight PF sorcerer, it would be close though.

The 9th level spells with hierophant helps, but MAD, poor BAB, and lost class features kinda hurt.

Even with heirophant, you only get 8ths. 3 lost caster levels really hurts, unless you're talking about early entry. With early entry (Wizard 1/Druid 3/Mystic Theurge 2/Arcane Heirophant 10/Mystic Theurge 4) the theurge is only one druid spell level behind the focused wizard and he has all these interesting wizard spells to compliment his power. Still not dual nines (looked in to AH prereqs, you MUST hit Druid 3, it requires Trackless Step as a class feature), but it's not bad.

[Acanous]

you get dual nines, even if you go wiz3/dru3 before hitting Theurge into heirophant. you only lose 3 levels of casting from each side, Wizards and Druids both gain 9ths at lv 17. You'd get your 9th level spells AT 20, but you'd get them. Early entry is just bonus.

[Sarone]

This is good and all, but you're also mixing 3.5 in here. The OP is talking about Pathfinder.

Unfortunately, alot of people are correct in that you have alot of lower level spells versus a few higher up ones. Worse, unless you go Magus or Bard, you will be suffering from ASF (Arcane Spell failure) from the word go, and you can only go with Medium Armor if you go to Magus 7.

However, there are a few options out there that may help out the power creep (or lack there of):

#1) Magical Knack (Trait, APG): Simple trait, gives +2 CL to a class as long as it doesn't go beyond your HD. Take it at CC and have it go to your other class you want to dabble in. While you may not get more spells in that class, your spells in that class will be a tad more powerful (For a Cleric 2/Wizard 1 (MK going to Wizard), the Wizard's 1st level spell will be casted from a Wizard 3 in power).

#2) Theurgy (Feat, UM): Minimum is being able to cast 1st level spells in an Arcane and Divine, with a 13 Wisdom and either 13 Intelligence or Charisma. For the divine heavy Theurge, sacrifice an Arcane spell equal to a divine spell you are about to cast and gain +1 caster level to it. For the Arcane heavy, half the damage from the spell becomes holy or unholy based on what you channel/spontaneously cast (they say channel, but the Oracle doesn't really channel unless you burn a revelation).

So far, those are the only two abilities/traits/feats that I have noticed so far that can help a MT character. Any one else seen something good?

[Endarire]

Consider this:

You're a Wizard3. You're pondering taking over the Cleric's role and multiclassing into Cleric and going Mystic Theurge.

At level 7, the time when you could be murdering people with solid fog + Evard's black tentacles, cackling as you combo fly with improved invisibility, and just escaping the fight dimension door, you're instead stuck on level 2 spells.

Instead, you could've bought a scroll of partially charged staff of lesser planar binding and gotten a Celestial Unicorn or something for healing.

Also, Leadership lets you get the Cleric cohort 2 levels behind you so you don't waste levels diluting your power.

And with Sorcerer, you'd be even farther behind the power curve, getting MT1 at level 8. Ew!

[Sarone]

By itself, the Mystic Theurge is not that good when compared to any other class. No one is not saying that.

However, it is good in that the one person in the group that might need 10 hours of prep time has alot more variation than the single spell caster. What you're giving up in depth, you're covering more areas.

Like the link you have in your signature. It states, and alot of people believe it, that a PC is one fail save from uselessnes. That is why the mystic Theurge shines as the proverbial 5th/6th party member. Primary healer can't cast on two guys because of distance or threat? Mystic Theurge can step in. Wizard needs to finish the arcane ritual of uber banishment in 5 rounds? Mystic Theurge provides support hile that's happening.

I don't know nor care about the Tier system everyone loves to quote. Fact is, if the player in question is pulling their weight, causes the BBEG to have to roll for saves versus spells (or burning a few resist items against spells that can be really bad for the BBEG), and making the main Healer's/Arcane caster's job easier, go for it.

That is what the OP is asking about. How can we make the Mystic theurge good enough that while the MT won't be a cor member of parties, the initial reactions will be alot less opressive.

[Coidzor]

To start with, easing the restrictions so that one can enter with one higher and one lower, so one can start progressing as a theurge sooner without having to cheese.

Say, 2nd level on one end, 1st level on the other. Then one basically is acting as a sorcerer-equivalent wizard and a cohort-equivalent cleric rather than being a worse-than-cohort wizard and cleric.

[navar100]

To start with, easing the restrictions so that one can enter with one higher and one lower, so one can start progressing as a theurge sooner without having to cheese.

Say, 2nd level on one end, 1st level on the other. Then one basically is acting as a sorcerer-equivalent wizard and a cohort-equivalent cleric rather than being a worse-than-cohort wizard and cleric.

Yep. This is part of why Ultimate Magus in 3E is considered a decent theurge prestige class, for being wizard/sorcerer. You only need one level dip in Sorcerer and a legal trick with Practiced Spellcaster Feat still gets you 9th level Wizard spells before epic. Your Sorcerer spellcasting, while useful on its own, by class abilities help to augment your Wizard spellcasting with metamagic. If Mystic Theurge was changed to something similar it would be a decent. Class abilities wouldn't be metamagic focused, but something like being able to spontaneously convert arcane slots into Cure Wounds spells would be nice.

[Snails]

Now sure about Pathfinder, but in 3.x the Theurge was terrible up until the point you got to character level 10 (Wiz3/Clr3/Thg4).

Lots of 4th levels spells is powergaming suboptimal, but highly playable, especially if you have decent teamwork and like buffing up the meatshields.

I think the Sorceror variant is slightly weaker still...do you really urgently need so many spells in a day. OTOH, I rather like the feel of a super-charismatic cleric who can dip into arcane selections by the power of his will.

My advice is: If the campaign is in the higher levels (10+) go for it. Otherwise consider very carefully whether playing a superbuffer during combats always is really your cup of tea. It certainly can work out just fine, but it is not for everyone.

[Sarone]

Now sure about Pathfinder, but in 3.x the Theurge was terrible up until the point you got to character level 10 (Wiz3/Clr3/Thg4).

Lots of 4th levels spells is powergaming suboptimal, but highly playable, especially if you have decent teamwork and like buffing up the meatshields.

I think the Sorceror variant is slightly weaker still...do you really urgently need so many spells in a day. OTOH, I rather like the feel of a super-charismatic cleric who can dip into arcane selections by the power of his will.

My advice is: If the campaign is in the higher levels (10+) go for it. Otherwise consider very carefully whether playing a superbuffer during combats always is really your cup of tea. It certainly can work out just fine, but it is not for everyone.

True, but it depends on what feats/traits/abilities you have.

Just wondering, how many different combinations of classes make a decent Mystic Theurge (this for Pathfinder, not 3.5)?

[navar100]

An Oracle/Sorcerer Theurge using Word Magic might be interesting. You're still greatly delaying the high level stuff but Word Magic does offer flexibility. As a Prestige Class ability, you can allow for the mixing of divine and arcane Words spell effects.

[Sarone]

Sorceror is good, but Oracle? Maybe.

What would you recommend as far as curse/mysteries/revelations if you go Oracle?

I'm not saying Oracle is a bad class to use for Mystic Theurge, but the disadvantages make it a major drawback.

[Blisstake]

The problem is the only arcane/divine casters with stat synergy also have their casting levels advance one level slower. Because of that, on the arcane side, I recommend Wizard or Witch, while on the divine side either cleric or druid.

To make the class a bit better, I would recommend first making it easier to enter (require arcane/divine caster level 3, and the other at 2). I would also consider replacing the "Combined Spells" class feature, which really doesn't seem to do much, unless you plan on casting all your arcane/divine spells in the opposite slots (in which case, you should probably be a full-caster anyway).

To replace that, I recommend something along the lines of a class feature that improves your caster level for one of your spellcasting classes, up to a maximum of your character level. Spell Sythesis is definitely something you want to keep, though...

Anyone have any other suggestions on how to make the Theurge a bit better?

[dextercorvia]

Anyone have any other suggestions on how to make the Theurge a bit better?

Take the Sorcerer. Look at that line that says primarily from the Sorcerer/Wizard list. Change it to say from the Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer/Wizard lists. You now have a character with more spells per day than a tier 1 (excepting Focused Specialist), slightly behind the higher tiers in spell level, but with all the versatility of a Theurge. It wouldn't break anything to give them the spells known of the Favored Soul.

[Sarone]

Take the Sorcerer. Look at that line that says primarily from the Sorcerer/Wizard list. Change it to say from the Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer/Wizard lists. You now have a character with more spells per day than a tier 1 (excepting Focused Specialist), slightly behind the higher tiers in spell level, but with all the versatility of a Theurge. It wouldn't break anything to give them the spells known of the Favored Soul.

Favored Soul isn't in Pathfinder.

Not to mention, there's fact you will need to answer two big questions about how you want to handle the Mystic Theurge:

1) Armor or no Armor?

-and-

2) Arcane Heavy, Divine Heavy, or split?

Those two questions will help you determine which way you might be taking your Mystic Theurge.

[dextercorvia]

Favored Soul isn't in Pathfinder.

Not to mention, there's fact you will need to answer two big questions about how you want to handle the Mystic Theurge:

1) Armor or no Armor?

-and-

2) Arcane Heavy, Divine Heavy, or split?

Those two questions will help you determine which way you might be taking your Mystic Theurge.

I was suggesting a simple homebrew in response to the question. The only reference to Favored Soul, is that they have a few more spells known. It is not necessary, and would be a buff to a T2 class, that we just buffed by increasing the spell list. A typical Theurge has no way to mitigate ASF, so I presume that most will go no armor.

[Sarone]

A typical Theurge has no way to mitigate ASF, so I presume that most will go no armor.



Not entirely true. It's also the reason that I want it first since it will help decide the second question.

At this time, Pathfinder has two Arcane classes that allow the PC to ignore ASF from armor: Bard and Magus.

Bard will only allow you to ignore Light Armor ASF, and you will need to take it up to level 4 instead of 3. But, you get several secondary abilities, and a good reflex save, which quite a few Divine Casters are lacking. You could just stop at 4 and leave Bard alone after that.

Magus wil let you ignore ASF for light and can get you medium if you take it to 7. Like Bard, it has to be taken up to 4 before you can get 2nd level spells, but the arcane pool/abilities help it out a bit. Unlike bard, though, you will want to take this class to 7 in order to get various abilities tied to Magus.

But again, that's just my view on it.

[Bovine Colonel]

Not entirely true. It's also the reason that I want it first since it will help decide the second question.

At this time, Pathfinder has two Arcane classes that allow the PC to ignore ASF from armor: Bard and Magus.

Bard will only allow you to ignore Light Armor ASF, and you will need to take it up to level 4 instead of 3. But, you get several secondary abilities, and a good reflex save, which quite a few Divine Casters are lacking. You could just stop at 4 and leave Bard alone after that.

Magus wil let you ignore ASF for light and can get you medium if you take it to 7. Like Bard, it has to be taken up to 4 before you can get 2nd level spells, but the arcane pool/abilities help it out a bit. Unlike bard, though, you will want to take this class to 7 in order to get various abilities tied to Magus.

But again, that's just my view on it.

Two problems. First, this delays entry into the MT prestige class. Instead of entering at 7 you have to wait until what, 8? I'm AFB at the moment. This doesn't seem like much but when you're already this far behind in terms of usefulness every bit counts.
Second, even after you enter MT your utility on the arcane side is permanently reduced. Instead of using a full casting progression you have a half casting progression. Because spells are the reason you're doing this, you've effectively nerfed yourself permanently for the sake of AC.

[Tetrasodium]

Pathfinder differs from d&d a bit in that multiclassing actually costs you in real terms. in d&d you rarely got anything like the regular growing payoffs you get in pathfinder. Since pathfinder spreads the cool shiny class toys out through the levels in that class, you don't get d&d's front loaded shiny in exchange for nothing of note when you multiclass. That's not to say multickassing for effectiveness in pathfinder is always going to be fail... It can work ok with some of the more martial base classes that are still kinda bland though, the two flavors of bland can mix together in new and pleasant ways (like here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=211415)), with a more pathfinderized class like inquisitor, cavalier, or gunslinger it probably would not go so well however. Pathfinder also looks to be moving towards addressing this by giving the bland base classes a variety of exotic spices they can choose to include in ultimate combat/magic letting them take a pinch of zest instead of one of their own bland flavors. Casters already had some good reasons to stay, rogue's got some new rogue talents they can pick from, barbarians got more rage powers, fighters some new archtypes that let them add some seasoning to the uber-bland cre fighter class.
The multiclass example I liked to works because the two classes are really just twosides of a similar but different coin and the overlap melts together into something where the loss is nicely made up for by the depth that the multiclass splash gives.


Theurges kinda suck though... you flounder around in mediocrity for ages until you finally qualify to be slightly mediocre at two different unrelated things for a while. the multiclass example I linked to doesn't really get hurt from what it gives up by taking the multiclass splash for immediate & lasting minor payoff in a role that synergizes between both classes (splash gies feat+bab bump to help qualify for more cool stuff sooner).

[Coidzor]

I was suggesting a simple homebrew in response to the question. The only reference to Favored Soul, is that they have a few more spells known. It is not necessary, and would be a buff to a T2 class, that we just buffed by increasing the spell list. A typical Theurge has no way to mitigate ASF, so I presume that most will go no armor.

Without increasing the spells known, increasing the class spell list is very marginal real utility.

[navar100]

Sorceror is good, but Oracle? Maybe.

What would you recommend as far as curse/mysteries/revelations if you go Oracle?

I'm not saying Oracle is a bad class to use for Mystic Theurge, but the disadvantages make it a major drawback.

That is a problem. Since you're not continuing Oracle levels, you are not getting new Mystery abilties and your Curse compensations don't kick in. For a pure Mystic Theurge, take the least hurting Curse for your character. I'd probably go with Lame.

The idea, though, would be to create a home made prestige class to combine Oracle/Sorcerer Word casting. Levels would stack Curse Compensation. Class abilities would allow for a few more Mystery abilities and Bloodline traits, making up for the fact you aren't casting the high level Words, before Epic at least. Because of all the combinations possible between Mysteries and Bloodlines, such an undertaking would have to be on a case by case basis between the player and DM. I find this a cool concept: Your Curse is related to your Bloodline. You use Word magic to reshape the universe to your will as opposed to specifically written spells. There'are lots of good roleplaying potential and plot hooks to go along with this.

[dextercorvia]

Without increasing the spells known, increasing the class spell list is very marginal real utility.

Which is why I suggested it. This won't move sorcerer out of T2, but that is kind of the point. You have traded the power of a Wizard or Cleric for the Versatility of a Theurge, just without as much suck as dropping three casting levels on each side. If you are playing a higher powered campaign, then there would be no reason why you couldn't lift the Favored Soul's Spells Known Table. It still won't put it to T1, but the 18ish? extra spells known will definitely raise it within its tier. This also obviates the usual MADness of a Theurge -- Archivist based the exception.

[Coidzor]

Which is why I suggested it. This won't move sorcerer out of T2, but that is kind of the point. You have traded the power of a Wizard or Cleric for the Versatility of a Theurge, just without as much suck as dropping three casting levels on each side.

Except you don't have the versatility of a theurge. You have the versatility of a sorcerer who can choose to instead of picking over his own spell list carefully now has to consider a larger list of potential spells to pick from. This is notably lower than that of a theurge, even if it can still get access to the spells only one level lower than the real casters rather than 3-4.

It helps with wanding and creates an additional resource drain by having them need more wands to do their schtick, but does not really increase the versatility of their casting because sorcerers are already strapped for spells known and you just made them more desperately in need of them. :smalltongue:

[Retech]

Well, you could try to cheat the wording with early entry.

Heighten spell in Pathfinder combined with one of the magic traits lets you cast a level one spell as a level two spell, using a level one slot (debatably).

Combine with your DM letting you just keep taking theurge, and you've got...

Wizard 1/Cleric 1/Mystic Theurge X

Which means you're getting spells at the same time as an equivilant sorcerer.

---

And in Ultimate Magic, they have a feat called Theurgy that lets you sacrifice spells on one side to increase the DC of spells on the other, which I think would be helpful if you really need to bring down a boss fight (combine with other shenanigans to get very high DC spells)

[Sarone]

---

And in Ultimate Magic, they have a feat called Theurgy that lets you sacrifice spells on one side to increase the DC of spells on the other, which I think would be helpful if you really need to bring down a boss fight (combine with other shenanigans to get very high DC spells)

Not quite the DCs. It increases the Divine spell by 1 if you sacrifice an Arcane spell of equal level, while a sacrificed Divine spell makes half the damage of an Arcane Spell holy/unholy (depending on what you cast/channel).

[dextercorvia]

Except you don't have the versatility of a theurge. You have the versatility of a sorcerer who can choose to instead of picking over his own spell list carefully now has to consider a larger list of potential spells to pick from. This is notably lower than that of a theurge, even if it can still get access to the spells only one level lower than the real casters rather than 3-4.

It helps with wanding and creates an additional resource drain by having them need more wands to do their schtick, but does not really increase the versatility of their casting because sorcerers are already strapped for spells known and you just made them more desperately in need of them. :smalltongue:

I suppose versatility was the wrong word.