FULL AUTO CROSSBOW MADNESS!!! Can haz? [PF]

[SamBurke]

So, I'm building a crossbow rogue, not the most optimal of damage-producers, but I'm fine with that... but, I need a way to get that heavy crossbow full-round reload down to a FREE action. Free action. I've already got Rapid Reload, but I'm not sure about what else.

This shouldn't be toooo feat intensive, and hopefully not waste more than, say, three levels (preferably less.... I plan to do some other multi-classing)

Any suggestions? I can link to the sheet or explain the rest of the build if you want.

[Ashram]

Crossbow Mastery from PF's Advanced Player's Guide. Requires Rapid Reload and Rapid Shot; you can reload ANY crossbow as a free action. The crossbow type you chose for Rapid Reload can now be reloaded without provoking AoOs.

Easy as one feat. :smallbiggrin:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Attuning + Lightning Maces + Splitting... you know you want to...

[SamBurke]

Thank you! Now some more book work, and I think this is viable...

[CTrees]

Now the question is, does Crossbow Mastery work with ballistas? I can't remember how Ultimate Combat worded the descriptions... I'm just thinking about an elephant with a light ballista mounted on it's howdah, being controlled by a character with Crossbow Mastery, making full attacks with light seige weaponry...

[ILM]

Is it PF sources only? Cause there's a few nifty tricks in ye olde 3.5e books...

[SamBurke]

Weeeeeeeeell, I'm not sure, so just throw it on out there.

[faceroll]

Crossbow Sniper, from I believe PHBII, gets you 1/2 your dex mod to damage with crossbows.

[Greenish]

Crossbow Sniper, from I believe PHBII, gets you 1/2 your dex mod to damage with crossbows.Also increases precision damage range to 60'.

[Ashram]

Oh, I almost forgot. Since you're a rogue with a crossbow, for the love of all that is optimized pick up the Sniper Goggles from PF's APG. Unlimited sneak attack range for ranged weapons, and all ranged sneak attacks within 30' gain a +2 circumstance bonus to damage per sneak attack die. It's 20,000 gp.

[faceroll]

Also increases precision damage range to 60'.

Ooh, juicy.

Craven, from Champions of Ruin, gets you +1 damage per sneak attack die.

[Greenish]

Craven, from Champions of Ruin, gets you +1 damage per sneak attack die.+1 damage per level, actually.

[SowZ]

So, I'm building a crossbow rogue, not the most optimal of damage-producers, but I'm fine with that... but, I need a way to get that heavy crossbow full-round reload down to a FREE action. Free action. I've already got Rapid Reload, but I'm not sure about what else.

This shouldn't be toooo feat intensive, and hopefully not waste more than, say, three levels (preferably less.... I plan to do some other multi-classing)

Any suggestions? I can link to the sheet or explain the rest of the build if you want.

Is this rogue going to dual wield crossbows, by chance?

[TwylyghT]

Dead Eye from Dragon Compendium gives Dex mod to damage with ranged weapons you have focus for.

[SowZ]

Dead Eye from Dragon Compendium gives Dex mod to damage with ranged weapons you have focus for.

There are so many ways to add Dex to ranged weapons it's wonder any archer of a good level doesn't have it if all official sources are allowed.

[Greenish]

Dead Eye from Dragon Compendium gives Dex mod to damage with ranged weapons you have focus for.It's limited to 30', sadly.

[Tvtyrant]

If I was going to go auto crossbow, I would probably go Dragonfire Inspiration Bard or Psychic Rogue myself; the first has a lower damage threshold but it is less feat intensive and has more abilities. The second gets a number of useful powers and is again more diverse then just Rogue with an autocrossbow.

[ericgrau]

As long as you're going auto crossbow you might as well dual wield; not much advantage over rapid reload + light crossbow otherwise. You need 2 hands to reload though. So you either sheathe, load, sheathe, quickdraw, load, quickdraw to reload with 2 move actions, or at high levels you use an expensive glove of storing. At low-levels, before magic weapons, all you have to do is drop the empty crossbows and draw 2 more preloaded crossbows. Items like gloves of dexterity and boots of speed will help you delay the need for magic weapons.

[SowZ]

As long as you're going auto crossbow you might as well dual wield; not much advantage over rapid reload + light crossbow otherwise. You need 2 hands to reload though. So you either sheathe, load, sheathe, quickdraw, load, quickdraw to reload with 2 move actions, or at high levels you use an expensive glove of storing. At low-levels, before magic weapons, all you have to do is drop the empty crossbows and draw 2 more preloaded crossbows. Items like gloves of dexterity and boots of speed will help you delay the need for magic weapons.

Dropping is a free action. With Quickdraw, drawing a weapon is a free action.
Put the crossbows on a lanyard on your wrist so when you drop it, it stays where it can be drawn again. Not every DM will agree to this. But some will.

[ericgrau]

Even if not you can drop the crossbows without a big loss. Heck use non-masterwork crossbows and masterwork bolts if you really want to be stingy. Most fights you'll be able to retrieve them, or if not you only lose a little gold. It'll take 20+ fights for the cost of the bolts add up to the cost of the 4-6+ crossbows, and by then you'll want bane bolts and so on anyway, which are automatically +1.

[faceroll]

And with GMW and other spells, you can get magical effects on your bolts for next to no cost at all.

[Seffbasilisk]

There's an auto-loading enchantment, and with the collar of Unseen Servants you can have them **** it for you (with windlass if they can't handle the goatsfoot). Then all you have to do is pull the trigger*.


*Aiming sold separately.

[faceroll]

have them **** it for you

Aw yeah, **** it good.

[TwylyghT]

It's not a feat or anything build specific, but I figured it may be worth mentioning the Self Loading Crossbow from the AEG, and the Quick Loading weapon property from the MIC.

The self loading crossbow plus Rapid Reload allows for full attack, and Quick Loading effectively makes a repeating crossbow with a 100 round clip. Granted to reload the thing from empty takes 50 rounds, but thats what you do waiting for dinner to cook lol.

*side question* RAW aside, anyone have any balance concerns with letting a character armed with a full attack capable crossbow, to use many shot? Burstfire toggle? lol.

[ericgrau]

Ah crud I just remembered repeating crossbows don't **** themselves. You need a 2nd hand to operate the lever or some trick.

[BillyBobJoe]

Ah crud I just remembered repeating crossbows don't **** themselves.

... On one hand, I really want to know what you're trying to say, but on the other hand, it's more amusing this way. I apologize on interrupting this thread, but by all means, continue with your discussion on the ****ing of crossbows. :smalltongue:

[ericgrau]

You need to pull a lever between every shot, which normally takes two hands. It isn't a pistol.

[Greenish]

... On one hand, I really want to know what you're trying to say, but on the other hand, it's more amusing this way. I apologize on interrupting this thread, but by all means, continue with your discussion on the ****ing of crossbows. :smalltongue:It's the "****" in "cockroach" or "Michael Moorcock".

[gorfnab]

Don't forget to pick up a Gnome Crossbow Sight from A&EG.

[NineThePuma]

... And suddenly, Kobolds just got scarier in my mind.

[ILM]

As long as you're going auto crossbow you might as well dual wield; not much advantage over rapid reload + light crossbow otherwise. You need 2 hands to reload though. So you either sheathe, load, sheathe, quickdraw, load, quickdraw to reload with 2 move actions, or at high levels you use an expensive glove of storing. At low-levels, before magic weapons, all you have to do is drop the empty crossbows and draw 2 more preloaded crossbows. Items like gloves of dexterity and boots of speed will help you delay the need for magic weapons.
Or you take the Hand Crossbow Focus feat in DotU, which allows free action reloading of hand crossbows in addition to the effect ot Weapon Focus.

[SamBurke]

Don't forget to pick up a Gnome Crossbow Sight from A&EG.

Pray tell.

Also, I'm single wielding a heavy crossbow.

Craven sounds AWESOME. I'll check into it.

[Cieyrin]

Or you take the Hand Crossbow Focus feat in DotU, which allows free action reloading of hand crossbows in addition to the effect ot Weapon Focus.

Shneeky already pointed out the initial part, Hand Crossbow Focus + Aptitude Heavy Crossbow = free reloads.


Pray tell.

Also, I'm single wielding a heavy crossbow.

Craven sounds AWESOME. I'll check into it.

The Crossbow sight makes it so the first 2 range increments are free, you only start having penalties when you get to 3rd increment and beyond.

Also, since it hasn't been pointed out yet, Ghostly Reload from Races of the Dragon is a first level spell that loads for you, though it stops after a certain amount of reloads. Better put an Oil Chamber in your crossbow for quick application of a max CL Oil of Ghostly Reload while you 'fan the hammer' of your heavy crossbow. :smalltongue:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Shneeky already pointed out the initial part, Hand Crossbow Focus + Aptitude Heavy Crossbow = free reloads. Actually, I pointed to a very base and cruel cheezy trick which can end in a NI loop...




The Crossbow sight makes it so the first 2 range increments are free, you only start having penalties when you get to 3rd increment and beyond.

Also, since it hasn't been pointed out yet, Ghostly Reload from Races of the Dragon is a first level spell that loads for you, though it stops after a certain amount of reloads. Better put an Oil Chamber in your crossbow for quick application of a max CL Oil of Ghostly Reload while you 'fan the hammer' of your heavy crossbow. :smalltongue:

Not too bad an idea, actually...

[Cieyrin]

Actually, I pointed to a very base and cruel cheezy trick which can end in a NI loop...

I meant the Aptitude part, though you called it Attuning for whatever reason. :smalltongue:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I meant the Aptitude part, though you called it Attuning for whatever reason. :smalltongue:

Because I have repressed the memories of that particular page in ToB. So many things went wrong that day...

[SamBurke]

I don't have ToB, so could you elaborate?

[NineThePuma]

Aptitude Weapons allow you to use weapon specific feats (weapon focus, for example) with it, even if it isn't the right weapon.

It also allows you to use feats like Boomerang Daze, Lightning Maces, and other such things with other weapons as well.

[SamBurke]

..feats like Boomerang Daze, Lightning Maces, and other such things with other weapons as well.

These sound promisingly broken... :smallbiggrin:

[NineThePuma]

What I really like to do is go ahead and get Hand Crossbow focus and then buy an Aptitude Pistol or Rifle, from the DMG. Full attacks with guns? Why didn't you say so!

[Greenish]

What I really like to do is go ahead and get Hand Crossbow focus and then buy an Aptitude Pistol or Rifle, from the DMG. Full attacks with guns? Why didn't you say so!Why? You still need EWP to avoid the non-proficiency penalty, and if you can just march in and buy modern weapons, buy an automatic rifle and save yourself a feat and +1 enhancement.

Or if you meant renaissance weapons (pistol and musket), those also require EWP and have damage hardly better than crossbows.

[Cieyrin]

Why? You still need EWP to avoid the non-proficiency penalty, and if you can just march in and buy modern weapons, buy an automatic rifle and save yourself a feat and +1 enhancement.

Or if you meant renaissance weapons (pistol and musket), those also require EWP and have damage hardly better than crossbows.

Most people going for Hand Crossbow Focus I think would dip Rogue for proficiency in hand crossbows and Aptitude should pass proficiency over.

As for why renaissance weapons, why not? Guns are awesome, so why shouldn't we use them if it's not difficult to pick them up? Though I hear it's more a trick for Psychic Warriors than anyone else, due to Soulbound Weapon shenanigans allowing to pick up laser rifles and whatnot.

[SamBurke]

Can I get the exact stats on that Craven feat? I'd like to present it to my GM, and I don't have the book.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Can I get the exact stats on that Craven feat? I'd like to present it to my GM, and I don't have the book.

Since it is explicitly prohibited by both the board rules and several federal laws concerning copyright...

No.

[Greenish]

Most people going for Hand Crossbow Focus I think would dip Rogue for proficiency in hand crossbows and Aptitude should pass proficiency over.I don't think class-based proficiencies are feats.


As for why renaissance weapons, why not? Guns are awesome, so why shouldn't we use them if it's not difficult to pick them up?Because they're not significantly better than crossbows, and you'd have to pay a feat or take a penalty to hit.


Can I get the exact stats on that Craven feat?"If you ever become immune to fear, you lose a feat slot."

[Eisirt]

Aw yeah, **** it good.

Hey.... he couldn't have used the expression to ROOSTER the X-bow, not could he?