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jiriku
2011-08-08, 11:49 PM
Hi all! Need some help building a villain for an upcoming adventure.

Say you are a CR12 spellcaster of the beguiler, sorcerer, or wizard persuasion. You wish to to conceal yourself with illusions/invisibility, and you need to defeat see invisibility and true seeing. Homebrew is available, and probably necessary, because we're pretty much plumbed the depths of what the rulebooks can offer us at this point. What are your options?
_________

eftexar
2011-08-08, 11:53 PM
I don't think you have many options to do that. I'm pretty sure that unless you go third party or homebrew you won't find anything that beats those. Unfortunately they are broken spells that allow no resistance.
But true seeing doesn't penetrate objects, so while you are invisible I guess you could hold a a really clear plate of glass in front of you. And see invisibility doesn't see through opaque objects so you could hold a second plate of glass behind the first object and create an illusion over it that it makes it appear solid.

edit- Sorry for the sarcasm (even though I found it quite funny). This was a bit of a sour point in campaigns I played. One of our players overused invisibility, so most of the creatures the DM chose had true seeing or invisibility purge.

Jelvoden
2011-08-09, 12:14 AM
Invisible Spell (cityscape pg. 61) plus obscuring mist (or a similar spell) gives you a fog bank that is invisible to normal vision but shows up normally to see invisibility and true seeing. It's not perfect (as the fog itself can be conspicuous if the environment doesn't match it), but it will conceal your movements within an area if nothing else. It'll also look darned silly to any enemies who don't have see invisibility up, whose allies are ranting about fog which clearly is not there.

Circle of Life
2011-08-09, 12:17 AM
Wizard of Red Robes gets an ability that forces Divination users to make a caster level check to pierce the effects of your spells. Dragonlance Campaign setting, as I recall.

There's also a feat that does something similar, though I don't recall the name off hand. Tenacious metamagic? Sinister metamagic? ...something like that.

SamBurke
2011-08-09, 12:19 AM
Invisibility Purge has a range.

See Invisibility and True Seeing might be stopped by lead? Check it out... maybe put some on your armor... OOH. All armor should be factory-made with lead coatings.

eftexar
2011-08-09, 12:20 AM
Lead armor could be arguable though. For one most armor doesn't cover your entire body (though seeing a floating head might be very disconcerting). And two would the lead stop the effect before the lead object in question became visible? Regardless they never actually mention lead.
Not only that, but with the wording of the spells, if the armor was made invisible along with you then one can only assume that it doesn't apply to stopping the effect from functioning. Of course if you cast invisibility separately on the armor and yourself it would only see through the armors invisibility (and whatever it wasn't covering), but that sort of defeats the purpose (though a plus on floating armor).

jiriku
2011-08-09, 12:26 AM
Ok, that's kinda what I figured. Suppose we were to homebrew a new abjuration spell, similar to nondetection or mislead, that defeated true seeing, or at least allowed you to dictate what would be seen. I'm finding that it's difficult to make use of a shapeshifter who occasionally might trail the party invisibily when I have to consider that early in the adventure, the players might accidently figure out what's going on by randomly casting see invisibility or true seeing (and players and random actions always seem to go well together).

Maybe I'll just need to gamble on the expensive cost and short duration of the spells, and have the villain arrange to encounter the PCs in situations that will tend to disarm their suspicions so they don't feel the need to throw divinations around.

eftexar
2011-08-09, 12:29 AM
Does one of your players have permanent true seeing though? And how paranoid are they (aka how much have you messed with them)? Additionally you forgot Murphy's Law is best friends with D&D (they hang out sometimes).

Personally I think you should just do what you were going to do and if one them makes a fuss, use my plate of glass excuse. I mean you are the DM. You could just say the NPC is too awesome for it to work.

If you really want to, you could just come up with a plausible excuse of your own (aka he has a really really high ranks in the hide skill).

Edit -WAIT! I got it, give him the Hide in Plain Sight ability.

Drachasor
2011-08-09, 12:35 AM
Ok, that's kinda what I figured. Suppose we were to homebrew a new abjuration spell, similar to nondetection or mislead, that defeated true seeing

I think this is perfectly allowable. Lesseeable would stop spells like True Seeing, See Invisibility, and other spells that enhance vision from working on you.

Ziegander
2011-08-09, 12:37 AM
It would even be a fun easter egg to provide the party with a scroll of "Lesseeable" as "random treasure" on their next quest so that they have access to it before you give them the reveal that they couldn't see some dude because he'd had it cast on him.

NineThePuma
2011-08-09, 12:46 AM
Instead of hiding himself in illusions, use a bunch of illusions to drive people paranoid, then have a perfectly mundane trap. For example, set up an illusion of a massive pit, the true seeing sees that there is no pit, and then have a perfectly mundane collapsing ceiling trap above the illusion of a pit.

jiriku
2011-08-09, 01:34 AM
Hrmm....


Lesseeable
Abjuration
Level: beguiler 4, sorcerer/wizard 4
Components: S
Casting Time: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Special

If you cast this spell while under any effect that grants you invisibility, you gain the ability to Hide in Plain Sight for the duration of the invisibility effect. This grants you no benefit against creatures who are unable to see you because of your invisibility, but entitles you to a Hide check to avoid notice by anyone able to see invisible creatures (such as through a see invisibility or true seeing spell). Lesseeable expires when the effect granting you invisibility lapses, even if you activate another source of invisibility before that occurs.

You cannot benefit from lesseeable if you are naturally or permanently invisible.


Rilinondetection
Abjuration
Level: beguiler 5, sorcerer/wizard 5

This functions as the nondetection spell, but protects you even from divination effects that do not directly target you, such as true seeing.


Edit: The more I think on it, the more I think Eftexar has it. I can just slap on the dark creature template, pump his Hide check, and call it a day (or night, as the case may be). Shame, though. I'd like the PCs to know who the villain is, but not know he's a villain, but there's really no way for me to make him available for interaction without creating the risk that they'll take one magic-assisted look at him and cry "Hey, you're not Bob the Ranger!"

Psilulz
2011-08-09, 02:53 AM
Why not just use dispel magic and counterspelling? See invis and true seeing both have a verbal component, so silence should work too.

Tenno Seremel
2011-08-09, 04:59 AM
(If that is an option) Research a new spell that works like Mass Cloud Mind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/cloudMindMass.htm) psionic power. Although it's mind-affecting, close range and Will negates.

peacenlove
2011-08-09, 05:43 AM
Shadow weave magic -> Insidious Spell feats provide an opposed caster level check to evade divinations. (Players guide to faerun)
Same with the gnome illusionist subtitution levels (Races of stone)
Dancing shadows mystery (Tome of magic) grants you total concealment (only beatable with true seeing or similar magic)
Superior invisibility (8th level spell) defeats see invisibility as well as many other senses.
Nondetection may or may not work (Ask your DM)

Yitzi
2011-08-09, 09:01 PM
Be an illusionist (a good choice anyway), and take the Shadow Shaper variant from UA. Max out Hide. Take a template or prestige class that gives HiPS.

Now you can use your Hide skill to hide from the casters, and invisibility to hide from the skillmonkeys, and if they think to place True Seeing on a skillmonkey (or druid) they deserve the win.

Kellus
2011-08-09, 09:09 PM
Interestingly, ethereal obstacles block see invisibility, because while under the effects of it people can see onto the Ethereal Plane as it were normally visible. While there is a clause that ethereal creatures show up as translucent shapes, ethereal objects interfere with vision like normal, which means an invisible creature can hide behind an ethereal wall for almost perfect cover.

Pyromancer999
2011-08-09, 09:09 PM
Super Greater Invisibility! 6th level, works as Greater Invisibility, except that See Invisibility can't penetrate it. Done.

Note: This spell did not currently exist before posting, and was made up in three seconds off the top of my head.

DarkestKnight
2011-08-09, 09:51 PM
Get the Contingent spell metamagic feat, so that you can set a spell to cast a blinding spell on anyone else who casts true seeing or similar spells in the near vicinity. or just cast power word blind seeing as it has no saving throw allowed and will blind them for minimum 2 rounds, which is enough to reposition and start causing trouble.

Hanuman
2011-08-10, 11:55 AM
Stab their eyes.

Alternatively:

Shax's Top Ten Alchemical Items

Eggshell Grenade, Dust
Price: 10 GP
Weight: --
(Oriental Adventures p. 78)
Thrown as a grenade-like weapon, so make a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 5'. A dust grenade that hits its target directly blinds the target for 1d4 rounds *NO SAVE*. Anyone else within the 5' radius splash must make a Fort save DC 10 or be blinded for 1 round. This is an amazingly effective weapon that works on a wide variety of opponents, but don't overuse this one or your DM will come down on you with a banhammer like a ton of bricks.
Craft (Alchemy) DC: 20

Jallorn
2011-08-10, 12:00 PM
Invisibility makes you invisible to most people.

Invisible Invisibility makes you invisible to people who can see invisibility.*

Cast both.

*Not all DMs will agree with this interpretation.

Cieyrin
2011-08-10, 01:37 PM
Superior invisibility (8th level spell) defeats true seeing as well as many other senses.

Unfortunately, no, Superior Invisibility is still detected by True Seeing, which is frankly stupid, as why should an 8th level spell be defeated by a 5th level spell just b/c it has an expensive material component? If you get clever with it, then perhaps but it shouldn't be "Hah! True Seeing, I win, stupid n00b illusionist!"

Also, I'm not seeing why Nondetection wouldn't work. It's explicitly SR vs. Divinations. Pump your CL (Beguiler, meet Master Spellthief and Unseen Seer) and laugh at those paltry attempts to find you! It's not about targeting, as Nondetection explicitly works against Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, which creates a sensor not targeting somebody, so why should See Invisibility/True Seeing be exempt?

Yitzi
2011-08-10, 02:27 PM
Unfortunately, no, Superior Invisibility is still detected by True Seeing, which is frankly stupid, as why should an 8th level spell be defeated by a 5th level spell just b/c it has an expensive material component?

It's not; it's because there needs to be something to defeat Superior Invisibility, and for a specialized defense a 3 level difference is acceptable.




Because it's not vs. Divinations, it's vs. "divination spells such as clairaudience/clairvoyance, locate object, and detect spells." See Invisibility is very different from those effects, so it wouldn't necessarily apply.

[quote]It's not about targeting, as Nondetection explicitly works against Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, which creates a sensor not targeting somebody, so why should See Invisibility/True Seeing be exempt?

Because See Invis/True Seeing are ways of bypassing magical protection, while the others are all ways of gaining information you couldn't get without magic.

Cieyrin
2011-08-10, 03:38 PM
Because it's not vs. Divinations, it's vs. "divination spells such as clairaudience/clairvoyance, locate object, and detect spells." See Invisibility is very different from those effects, so it wouldn't necessarily apply.

Using the words 'such as' means as examples of what it protects against, not as an explicit list of what it effects. Superior Invisibility says what spells it ignores, Nondetection just says divinations.


If a divination is attempted against the warded creature or item, the caster of the divination must succeed on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against a DC of 11 + the caster level of the spellcaster who cast nondetection. If you cast nondetection on yourself or on an item currently in your possession, the DC is 15 + your caster level.

Attempted against is not the same as targeting. True Seeing and See Invisibility are used against a target, thus Nondetection would force a roll. I don't see what the big deal is about whether it should or not, a Divination is a Divination and Nondetection is meant to defend against it. Whether it does or not should be up to the dice, as you already pointed out in your post, a specialized defense against a higher level spell is acceptable. Why should True Seeing vs. Superior Invisibility be treated any different from Nondetection vs. True Seeing?

peacenlove
2011-08-10, 05:11 PM
Unfortunately, no, Superior Invisibility is still detected by True Seeing, which is frankly stupid, as why should an 8th level spell be defeated by a 5th level spell just b/c it has an expensive material component? If you get clever with it, then perhaps but it shouldn't be "Hah! True Seeing, I win, stupid n00b illusionist!"


I meant see invisibility but somehow I typed wrong :smallsigh:. Going to edit it.



Also, I'm not seeing why Nondetection wouldn't work. It's explicitly SR vs. Divinations. Pump your CL (Beguiler, meet Master Spellthief and Unseen Seer) and laugh at those paltry attempts to find you! It's not about targeting, as Nondetection explicitly works against Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, which creates a sensor not targeting somebody, so why should See Invisibility/True Seeing be exempt?

Nondetection does work (In my interpretation at least, it makes the spell moderately useful, although definitely not RAW I rule that mind blank gives a save vs true seeing). Mind If I add it in my post? Going to save it for future reference.


It's not; it's because there needs to be something to defeat Superior Invisibility, and for a specialized defense a 3 level difference is acceptable.


If True seeing is a specialized defense (Shuts down a school of magic, reveals polymorphed and ethereal creatures and has a decent range too among other things) I shudder at the thought of general defenses.

jiriku
2011-08-10, 07:01 PM
My interpretation of nondetection was that it protected from spells that detect auras (detect spells) and spells that specifically attempt to locate the target at a distance (clairaudience/clairvoyance, locate object, scrying). Personal-range spells that grant the caster a new sensory capability, like darkvision, see invisibility, and true seeing, seem to be in a class by their own that isn't called out in the description of nondetection.

Does anyone have any reasoning that would support an alternate interpretation? This monster has CL 21, so it will have a decisive advantage against the ECL 10-12 party in any spell penetration checks.

Does anyone have a hombrew prestige class that grants full casting progression while providing an ability that would defeat true seeing, either for personal invisibility or for general illusion casting?



I like the idea of a set of ethereal walls. It would take time to haul a wall into the ethereal plane brick by brick, but a mid-level wizard could probably magically construct an ethereal maze in situ overtop his lair. Holds some potential for simultaneous multi-planar combats. Interesting.

Circle of Life
2011-08-10, 07:04 PM
Does anyone have a hombrew prestige class that grants full casting progression while providing an ability that would defeat true seeing, either for personal invisibility or for general illusion casting?

It's not homebrew, but the Wizard of High Sorcery, Red Robes, that I mentioned earlier is full casting progression and gives you a Nondetection+ effect that specifically calls out See Invisibility and such as being blocked by it.

jiriku
2011-08-10, 07:05 PM
I don't have that book. :smallfrown:

Welknair
2011-08-10, 07:13 PM
See Invisibility and True Seeing might be stopped by lead? Check it out... maybe put some on your armor... OOH. All armor should be factory-made with lead coatings.

My players got their hands on a magitech factory. This is the first thing they wanted to start mass-producing.

Cieyrin
2011-08-10, 08:12 PM
Nondetection does work (In my interpretation at least, it makes the spell moderately useful, although definitely not RAW I rule that mind blank gives a save vs true seeing). Mind If I add it in my post? Going to save it for future reference.

Doesn't bother me none, feel free.

erikun
2011-08-10, 09:34 PM
The best way to not be seen is to not be spotted. Simply hide somewhere; you are up against a character with a +2 Spot check (if that). Better yet, the Shadow Shaper Illusionist variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#illusionistVariants) from UA grants Hide as a class skill - you are guaranteed to hide from any wizard at a moderate level.

Place something between the two of you. Conjured walls will work. Invisible Spell conjured walls are even more amusing, because See Invisibility arguably neutralizes the invisibility. Shadow Conjured walls and objects work just as well, providing you instant concealment for hiding while revealing the objects as "shadow illusions" but not allowing the enemy wizard to see through them.

Blindness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blindnessDeafness.htm) will keep him from seeing you, as will killing him.

Randomguy
2011-08-10, 09:50 PM
Make your villain a beguiler and max out hide and move silently. A few Fog Clouds or Solid Fogs might be useful too (Make them a permanent part of some of the dungeon rooms), but then your villain won't know where the PC's are. (Unless you give your villain flight and enchant the floor to make noise when someone stands on it or something).

Also, use greater shadow conjuration wall of stone to make some of the walls: The caster would know it's not real and automatically disbelieve, so he could go through the walls. Only a few party members would succeed in disbelieving, so only some of them would be able to go through the walls.

I really don't recommend making a spell that lets you fool ways to detect invisibility. It'll cause a never ending spiral. And besides, even the 9th level superior invisibility spell is bypassed by true seeing. Also, if your PC's ever got a hold of it (or even find out such a spell exists and then have the party wizard research it) they could cause A LOT of trouble.

peacenlove
2011-08-11, 12:39 AM
Make your villain a beguiler and max out hide and move silently. A few Fog Clouds or Solid Fogs might be useful too (Make them a permanent part of some of the dungeon rooms), but then your villain won't know where the PC's are. (Unless you give your villain flight and enchant the floor to make noise when someone stands on it or something).


Tremorsense/blindsight/mindsight on the villain solves the detection problem.




I really don't recommend making a spell that lets you fool ways to detect invisibility. It'll cause a never ending spiral. And besides, even the 9th level superior invisibility spell is bypassed by true seeing. Also, if your PC's ever got a hold of it (or even find out such a spell exists and then have the party wizard research it) they could cause A LOT of trouble.

Why not? Even in core there is greater spell immunity that protects against a great deal of spells (not to mention mind blank, which shuts down one and a half schools). Although I hate absolute protections (I suggest opposed rolls), there are a great deal of them in D&D, introducing a specialized spell just in order to counter another spell is just more bookkeeping, especially when the same thing can be accomplished with other ways.

Absol197
2011-08-11, 01:19 AM
Wait, I'm confused--your villian is a shapeshifter, right? What degree of shapeshifting does he have? If it's not too much of a stretch, following them around as a bird, or a fox, or some other small, unobtrusive animal natural to whatever area they're in is a much better idea than invisibility. The only thing that will tip his hand is true seeing, but against that he'd need to hide anyways.

However, it's easier to hide as a small creature (bonus to Stealth checks and all), and woodland creatures would naturally be wary of intruders (and thus, try to remain hidden while watching them pass), and so would not arouse too much suspicion, especially compared to strange sounds with no visible source (and you know that some PC is going to nat. 20 their Perception check to hear your bad guy sneaking up on them).

A) You hear some rustling in the bushes, but you can't see anything that might have caused it.
B) You hear some rustling in the bushes, but it's just a squirrel, trying to crack open a nut.

Which is more likely to be suspicious?

EDIT: Of course, to a PC, everything that is described is suspicious, but since you normally don't describe every little creature in the woods, you would assume that you wouldn't need to describe the birds and such when they ask what they hear--players always mean things out of the ordinary. If you absolutely have to describe something, throw whatever your bad guy is hiding as in to a list of other, random, expected noises or sights: "Well, there are birds singing in the trees, a few squirrels scampering in the branches, a fox watching you nervously from the bushes a little ways away..." This is a typical DM way of saying, "No, there's nothing special going on," when in fact, there actually is...

stemfish
2011-08-11, 01:55 AM
With my group we ran into this problem and ended up having an invisibility arms race between the GM and players....Well into epic

In the end we found a spell, I can't remember where or what class or if it was pure homebrew, that gave hide in plane sight. With that you can throw your players for a loop when the barbarian that has a +20 (temp, no reason to give it to the PCs) cloak of hide and max ranks that the party can only seem to find every three or four rounds. Just watch as the players keep casting revealing spells and divination class in order to find it while they need to make a bunch of spot checks. Inversely, once we players used a carefully worded polymorph to become flies and we got past the guards by just buzzing past, and then morphed back randomly as we pleased sowing chaos and confusion.

Phosphate
2011-08-11, 02:08 AM
Ripped from the Timeline
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, XP
Casting Time: Standard Action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Until you touch a creature or a creature is in mine of sight when you use a spell/ability with remarkable visual effects
Saving Throw: nope
Spell Resistance: nope

You rip your own existence from the general timeline. While the effect of this spell is active, you can't be seen, smelled or heard, people forget that you ever existed (and thus will not notice your absence), and divinations, of any kind, fail to work on you, since you basically, objectively, no longer exist. Also, you do not age anymore, if there were any poison or disease effects on you they cease to work for the duration of the spell, and you will ignore Area of Effect spells (however, you only get Total Concealment against area of effect mundane abilities. And nothing against things like an avalanche).
XP cost: your CL x 100

A little extreme, but should do the trick.

jiriku
2011-08-11, 04:01 AM
Wait, I'm confused--your villian is a shapeshifter, right? What degree of shapeshifting does he have?

At this point I have not fully settled on a build, but based on the advice I've gotten here, my working prototype is now a greater barghest beguiler 3/abjurant champion 5/unseen seer 4 with the shadow creature template. Casts as a 12th level beguiler, but thanks to Practiced Spellcaster and Martial Arcanist, all spells and SLAs are at CL 21 (fun fact: Martial Arcanist is crunchy when combined with nonassociated monster HD). The barghest's cover identity is to maintain dire wolf form and pose as a druid's animal companion (the "druid" being a charmed bard or rogue who bluffs well and positions himself as a fochlucan lyrist who wishes to ally of the PCs). It will be employing mislead/nondetection.

I'm concerned about the possibility that the players might randomly cast true seeing while the "dire wolf" is about, and I want to be able to present the villain in his cover identity without worrying that the plot will explode in the opening act. I was considering invisible blacklight as a way to deny true seeing in a way that might deepen the mystery, but I don't have a convenient way to get it in-list and it's got a short duration anyhow.

Later, when the creature ambushes the PCs, I want to be able to engineer a scene in which they can survive an attack without knowing exactly what attacked them. The method doesn't have to be foolproof, I just want something that's reasonably likely to work.

PCs are expected to be fairly well-optimized ECL 10-12 characters, playing smart, with some limited ability to obtain spellcasting resources slightly above their own level.

Dr.Epic
2011-08-11, 04:15 AM
Well, stab their eyes out comes to mind. Just saying.

Yitzi
2011-08-11, 07:41 AM
If True seeing is a specialized defense (Shuts down a school of magic, reveals polymorphed and ethereal creatures and has a decent range too among other things) I shudder at the thought of general defenses.

A general defense would be something that works against more than one school of magic and a few effects (say, SR), or maybe even against both casters and noncasters.

snowboule
2011-08-11, 08:35 AM
You are the DM you can cheat xD since you decide whatever happens.

use Suggestion on them make them fail the save and make them not to use detection spells? :smallcool:

erikun
2011-08-11, 09:44 AM
I'm concerned about the possibility that the players might randomly cast true seeing while the "dire wolf" is about, and I want to be able to present the villain in his cover identity without worrying that the plot will explode in the opening act.
True Seeing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueSeeing.htm) has a limit of 120, not the range of sight. Unless he is getting into melee with them, the dire wolf can remain in full view of the party yet not be identified and shapechanged by True Seeing.

Lord Vukodlak
2011-08-11, 11:58 AM
jiriku here's my suggestion, I did this with lycanthropes, true seeing reveals the dominate aspect. A lycanthrope that is human at heart shows up as human when viewed with true seeing. But if they are at heart an animal or a beast true seeing shows the transformed state.

True seeing allows you to "see all things as they actually are." So one can say any lycanthrope that embraced the animal within can show up as the animal instead of the man.

Cieyrin
2011-08-11, 02:48 PM
Ripped from the Timeline

This sounds more like a Transmutation to me, as you're changing the physical nature of the target, much like Time Stop. It could also be a Conjuration if you view it as transporting them outside the normal time stream. I could even liken it to Necromancy, given Astral Projection is part of the school, though that's kinda tenuous. Definitely not an Illusion in any case, as it's not fake.

peacenlove
2011-08-11, 02:58 PM
jiriku here's my suggestion, I did this with lycanthropes, true seeing reveals the dominate aspect. A lycanthrope that is human at heart shows up as human when viewed with true seeing. But if they are at heart an animal or a beast true seeing shows the transformed state.

True seeing allows you to "see all things as they actually are." So one can say any lycanthrope that embraced the animal within can show up as the animal instead of the man.

Sadly (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm) while a reasonable house rule, it doesn't work.


Lycanthropes are humanoids or giants who can transform themselves into animals. In its natural form, a lycanthrope looks like any other members of its kind, though natural lycanthropes and those who have been afflicted for a long time tend to have or acquire features reminiscent of their animal forms.

You have better chance to ambush them dressed as a dirt farmer rather as a wolf.

Yitzi
2011-08-11, 03:46 PM
The best way to not be seen is to not be spotted. Simply hide somewhere; you are up against a character with a +2 Spot check (if that). Better yet, the Shadow Shaper Illusionist variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#illusionistVariants) from UA grants Hide as a class skill - you are guaranteed to hide from any wizard at a moderate level.

Place something between the two of you. Conjured walls will work. Invisible Spell conjured walls are even more amusing, because See Invisibility arguably neutralizes the invisibility.

Better yet, Invisible Spell fog cloud...it blocks line of sight only if you have See Invisibility.

It'd probably actually only give concealment rather than total concealment, since it still shows up as a translucent shape, but that should be enough to hide (especially if he goes Shadow Shaper.)

jiriku
2011-08-11, 05:34 PM
Well, I suppose he can stand up on a hill, dramatically backlit against the horizon.


Hey, this is neither here nor there, but I just noticed that the greater barghest has mass enlarge as an SLA, not mass enlarge person. Would this be a mere typo by the designers, or might it be an attempt to slide in a more generalized enlarge power that works on nonhumanoid creatures such as, oh, the barghest itself?

Circle of Life
2011-08-11, 05:37 PM
Sadly errata'd to be mass enlarge person, as expected.

Lord Vukodlak
2011-08-12, 01:13 AM
snip
Did I say it was an offical rule? No I did not. So there was no point in quoting a rule we all knew. This is the homebrew section afterall. I guess I should have been more clear I as suggesting a house rule.

Phosphate
2011-08-12, 01:50 AM
This sounds more like a Transmutation to me, as you're changing the physical nature of the target, much like Time Stop. It could also be a Conjuration if you view it as transporting them outside the normal time stream. I could even liken it to Necromancy, given Astral Projection is part of the school, though that's kinda tenuous. Definitely not an Illusion in any case, as it's not fake.

Well I did it because Invisibility is also an illusion. But you bring a very good point mentioning Time Stop. Conjuration, it's not though, as you still are basically in the time stream - time passes normally for you. Except time memory..."forgets" you.

It's more like a spell that's both a Transmutation of the universe and an Illusion of you.