Best 3 Wizard party?

[deuxhero]

I'm just curious about this, what's the best set of 3 wizards? Any races and PRCs/multiclassing (bar the stinky cheese) are allowed, as are ACFs that aren't stinky cheese (Domain wizard), leadership is banned in all forms (the usual).

[Greenish]

Three focused specialists. Conjuration, transmutation, whatever.

[deuxhero]

Pretty sure a PRC is a better option somewhere...


The question was more for WHAT to ban and spec.

[LordBlades]

2x Incantatrix, 1 Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil:

1) Focused specialist Conjurer(Abrupt Jaunt ACF)/Master Specialist/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil banned Necromancy, Evocation and Enchantment.
2)Focused Specialist Diviner/Master Specialist/Incantatrix, banned Necromancy, Evocation and Enchantment
3)Elven Generalist/Incantatrix

Everyone makes heavy use of Uncanny Forethought of course:smallcool:

[Greenish]

Sure, the usual suspects like Mage of the Arcane Order, Master Specialist, Incantatrix, Archmage, Initiate of Sevenfold Veil, Paragnostic Apostle, Malconvoker… but that's more what they want rather than what they need.

What to ban, well, they don't all need Abjuration.

[Wings of Peace]

At least one should be a Mindmage/Cerebremancer.

[deuxhero]

Pretty sure Incantatrix falls under stinky cheese.

[LordBlades]

Pretty sure Incantatrix falls under stinky cheese.

You never gave any definition of what you consider 'stinky cheese':smallconfused: so I assumed that Incantatrix not abusing metamagic reducers was fine for what you want.

[Greenish]

Pretty sure Incantatrix falls under stinky cheese.Cheese is relative, and you asked for the "best" possible party. How good it can get depends on where you draw the line, so for the best possible one, we would have to read your mind to discover what's "too cheesy" for you and build just under it.

Asking "what's best but not too cheesy" is a bit silly. :smalltongue:

[faceroll]

Going to want some trap detection abilities. Summon Elemental Reserve feat would be useful.


At least one should be a Mindmage/Cerebremancer.

The foulest of goudas. That class is broke, so, so broke.

[Wings of Peace]

Going to want some trap detection abilities. Summon Elemental Reserve feat would be useful.



The foulest of goudas. That class is broke, so, so broke.

Yeeah... there really is no other response. Just, yeeah.

[BobVosh]

If you are allowing other things I would also recommend a Wizard/Beguiler/Ultimate magus using the practiced spell caster trick. Get some trap finding and let you ban enchant and illusion while still getting some great stuff from it.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Everyone gets a Healing Belt asap, the party all pitches in for a Rod of Bodily Restoration.

Illumian (Krau), Beguiler 1/ Wizard (Conjurer) 4/ Ultimate Magus, 2 flaws, Versatile Spellcaster, Able Learner, Practiced Spellcaster: Beguiler, metamagic. Martial Wizard to get Improved Initiative instead of Scribe Scroll, take Abrupt Jaunt, etc. This is the party skillmonkey/trapmonkey, social face, spontaneous problem solver, and a decent crowd controller. Get UMD for Wands of Lesser Vigor.

Gray Elf, Fighter 1/ Wizard (Transmuter) 2/ Elf Paragon 3/ Spellsword 1/ (Incantatrix 4)/ Abjurant Champion 5/ (Paragnostic Apostle 4)/ Eldritch Knight or Knight Phantom 4. Otherworldly, Practiced Spellcaster, Power Attack, Arcane Strike, etc. This is the character who deals enough damage to kill the opponents, buffs himself into the stratosphere, and basically tanks for the party. Incantatrix is preferred, but if Metamagic Effect and Cooperative Metamagic for Persistent buffs is too cheesy, Paragnostic Apostle is a pretty good alternative, or just go for more BAB via EK/KP.

Kobold, Dragonwrought optional, Wizard (Conjurer) 5/ Mindbender 1/ Ur-Priest 2/ Mystic Theurge, Draconic Rite of Passage for Charm Person, preferably use the Ur-Priest adaptation to worship a nonevil dead deity for no evil alignment requirement. Ideally this will instead be a Spellhoarding Dragonwrought Venerable Desert Kobold Loredrake, with the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage, and replace four of the Wizard levels with Stalwart Battle Sorcerer. In that case, use Martial Wizard to get Combat Reflexes and use a Glaive with Weapon Focus via Stalwart Sorcerer.

[faceroll]

Yeeah... there really is no other response. Just, yeeah.

Best used with spellhoarding loredrake kobolds. Maybe a little white dragonspawn. :smallredface:

[BobVosh]

A kobold, an Illumian, and a grey elf. Somehow not surprised, but hey I'm happy to just predict one of the three builds used by an optimizer like Biff.

[deuxhero]

Wouldn't a Malconvoker be a better wizard and meat shield?

[Greenish]

Wouldn't a Malconvoker be a better wizard and meat shield?Malconvoker loses casting level or two, I forget. It's very good, but not objectively better than a wizard who doesn't lose said level.

Besides, what do you need meatshields for?

[deuxhero]

Malconvoker loses casting level or two, I forget. It's very good, but not objectively better than a wizard who doesn't lose said level.

Besides, what do you need meatshields for?

I was refering to the post 2 above mine. A fighter/eldritch knight/elf paragon loses a LOT.

[Morph Bark]

Three focused specialists. Conjuration, transmutation, whatever.

Divination so that the others know what to prepare. An elven generalist who takes enough divination spells can do so easily as well.

[Eldariel]

"Best" depends on the context so much. I'd probably go something like Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 10/Spellwarp Sniper 5, Wizard 6/Swiftblade 9/Abjurant Champion 5 and Wizard 3/Focused Specialist 3/Malconvoker 9/Thaumaturgist 5 and profit.

It's not the strongest by a long shot; hell, every one of those loses casting levels. It does cover a very broad base of options though and should make for an engaging play experience.

[Morph Bark]

"Best" depends on the context so much. I'd probably go something like Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 10/Spellwarp Sniper 5, Wizard 6/Swiftblade 9/Abjurant Champion 5 and Wizard 3/Focused Specialist 3/Malconvoker 9/Thaumaturgist 5 and profit.

It's not the strongest by a long shot; hell, every one of those loses casting levels. It does cover a very broad base of options though and should make for an engaging play experience.

I'd definitely like that last one in my 3-man wizard party. I myself would go for a Binder 1/Wizard 1/Master Specialist 1/Anima Mage 5/Warweaver 1/Spellguard 4 and then more MS or AM. Taking Persistent Spell and Arcane Disciple (Competition Domain) for Righteous Might and Divine Power.

Now we're all giant Paladins with a horde of demons.

[LordBlades]

"Best" depends on the context so much. I'd probably go something like Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 10/Spellwarp Sniper 5, Wizard 6/Swiftblade 9/Abjurant Champion 5 and Wizard 3/Focused Specialist 3/Malconvoker 9/Thaumaturgist 5 and profit.

It's not the strongest by a long shot; hell, every one of those loses casting levels. It does cover a very broad base of options though and should make for an engaging play experience.

I'd suggest replacing the rogue with Spellthief and get the Master Spellthief feat.

[Greenish]

I'd suggest replacing the rogue with Spellthief and get the Master Spellthief feat.Meh, you just trade a bunch of skill points to casting in light armour which is mostly useful in lower levels.

[Thespianus]

A kobold, an Illumian, and a grey elf.
Sounds like a set up for a terrible joke:


A kobold, an Illumian, and a grey elf walks into a bar. Someone shouts over "Hey, do you guys have a light?".

I'm no good with punchlines, but I believe we all can see this going downhill from here. ;)

[Darth_Versity]

I'd recommend a Focused Specialist Abjurer/Master Specialist/War Weaver/Abjurant Champion

This guy buffs everyone with war weaver as a move action so they can focus on destroying the enemy, he can dispel the enemy buffs as a swift action thanks to Abjurant Champion while getting a bonus on dispel checks from Master Specialist, and can then ready an action to counter spell enemy spellcasters or just use his standard action to attack along with the others.

The character would be completely defensive and use his abilities to protect himself and the other part memebers so that they can concentrate on destroying the enemy.

Something like, Abjurer 3/ Master Specialist 7/ War Weaver 5/ Abjurant Champion 5

[Eldariel]

I'd suggest replacing the rogue with Spellthief and get the Master Spellthief feat.

Waste of feat, loses 8 skillpoints and tons of class skills. I vastly prefer Rogue-base Unseen Seer to Spellthief-base.

[Greenish]

Waste of feat, loses 8 skillpoints and tons of class skills. I vastly prefer Rogue-base Unseen Seer to Spellthief-base.Doesn't Master Spellthief replace Practiced Spellcaster in compensating for Divination Spellpower?

[Eldariel]

Doesn't Master Spellthief replace Practiced Spellcaster in compensating for Divination Spellpower?

Some people claim it does; I disagree that's the RAW though, and it's definitely not the RAI. The book says:
"Your spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels also stack when determining your caster level for all arcane spells."

It simply stacks 'em; does not set your caster level to anything. It basically gives you your Spellthief levels in bonus CL, so meh. The argument for it trumping divination spell power is that it somehow sets your Caster Level to Spellthief+Arcane Caster and since bonuses can be applied in the most beneficial order, you can take the penalty from Divination Spell Power first and then set it back to your level but given the wording, I think it's pretty clear it merely allows you to add your Spellthief levels to your arcane caster levels for the purposes of your caster level.

Though even if it did, I would still prefer Rogue since Spellthief's benefits aren't all that high (though stealing specific spells from friendlies and casting 'em immediately as buffs does help; not very relevant in this party tho and a Wizard can really access what he wants anyways).

[Wings of Peace]

Why no Shadowcrafter mentions? I think "free" Miracles would be pretty handy myself.

[faceroll]

Why no Shadowcrafter mentions? I think "free" Miracles would be pretty handy myself.

Shadow Miracles don't work, because adding Miracle to your spell list doesn't add it to the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list, which is what you're drawing on for shadow evocation, just like prestige paladin with battle blessing cannot spontaneously cast all cleric spells.

[Eldariel]

Why no Shadowcrafter mentions? I think "free" Miracles would be pretty handy myself.

If Incantatrix is considered too strong, Shadowcraft Mages...

[Wings of Peace]

Shadow Miracles don't work, because adding Miracle to your spell list doesn't add it to the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list, which is what you're drawing on for shadow evocation, just like prestige paladin with battle blessing cannot spontaneously cast all cleric spells.

I won't argue because I don't want to derail the thread but I will point out that that is a very debated point.

[NecroRick]

Doesn't matter. Given a reasonable number of encounters without a fighter-type they will all die like the squishy bags of pus that they are.

Even if the DM is babying them by letting them do just 1 encounter per day, you can't win *every* initiative, and you can't make the monsters fail *every* saving throw....

At least one wizard should die (to arrows if nothing else) every encounter. Since you need 13 encounters to progress to level 2 (where they are fractionally less squishy bags of slightly more pus), I don't see that happening unless the DM is throwing major softballs.

[LordBlades]

Doesn't matter. Given a reasonable number of encounters without a fighter-type they will all die like the squishy bags of pus that they are.

Casters run out of spells way slower than fighter types run out of HP


Even if the DM is babying them by letting them do just 1 encounter per day, you can't win *every* initiative, and you can't make the monsters fail *every* saving throw....


Celerity and 'no save just lose' spells beg to differ



At least one wizard should die (to arrows if nothing else) every encounter. Since you need 13 encounters to progress to level 2 (where they are fractionally less squishy bags of slightly more pus), I don't see that happening unless the DM is throwing major softballs.

Not all games start at level 1:smallamused:

I've seen all caster party work from level 1, although an all wizard party will have some problems probably. At very low level it's very useful to have a more tanky caster like a druid or cleric tag along.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Doesn't matter. Given a reasonable number of encounters without a fighter-type they will all die like the squishy bags of pus that they are.

You are quite incorrect my good sir.


Even if the DM is babying them by letting them do just 1 encounter per day, you can't win *every* initiative,

Actually, between Nerveskitter and Celerity, you can.


and you can't make the monsters fail *every* saving throw....

And why the devil would you be targeting saves they can make, or, for that matter, saves at all?


At least one wizard should die (to arrows if nothing else)
Protection from Arrows, Wind Wall, etc. disagree with this point.


every encounter. Since you need 13 encounters to progress to level 2 (where they are fractionally less squishy bags of slightly more pus), I don't see that happening unless the DM is throwing major softballs.

You see, you've probably never played with a well played Wizard. This is forgivable, however, it is also incorrect.

[Eldariel]

Doesn't matter. Given a reasonable number of encounters without a fighter-type they will all die like the squishy bags of pus that they are.

You're trivially wrong. Assuming we start on level 1, the Wizards will have enough nukes to end a dozen encounters fast. Will enemies make saves? Sure. Much more rarely than a Fighter-type misses though. Offensively, the Wizards are unmatchable from level 1.

Will the Wizards lose Initiative on level 1? Sure. However, they still have AC and HP; they won't be one-shot just because they'll be attacked. The enemies will miss and HPs will absorb hits. Further, if we are starting at level 1 they can certainly all grab Toad-familiars for the +3 HP.

Note, I'm not assuming they use Tower Shields (no need for proficiency to sit behind it), Abrupt Jaunt ACF (easily enough to make them hardier than any Fighter on level 1) or any other simple solution to such problems. They can also buy a Guard Dog or a Riding Dog capable of much the same tasks as Fighter would on those levels. Riding Dog is just 150gp; combined the Wizards have no trouble affording one. Guard Dogs are 25gp.


Low level Wizards are just as good as Fighters with Crossbows, or if Elves, Longbows (though those are expensive). They have less HP and AC but since their offense is many times better than Fighters', they destroy the opposition faster. They have 4 level 1 slots each, so we're looking at no less than 12 encounter enders on level 1. How many games you've played in have had 12 encounters that were seriously challenging in one day? It's not like they need to do anything but Crossbow Attack against single Goblin or something silly like that (guess they can waste a cantrip like Daze if they feel like it). CR 1 encounters are hardly going to bother a party of 3 Wizards much.

4 Kobolds could theoretically be a threat but over and beyond that, barring completely aberrant rolls things like 2 Goblins, 2 Orcs, a Githyanki, a Giant Worker Ant, a Giant Bee or some such isn't going to pose a significant threat to the Wizards. They can also quite reasonably deal with many encounters above their EPL. In general, anything a balanced party can deal with, the Wizards would probably have no trouble dealing with.

[FMArthur]

I'm tempted to say that you don't need any specialization at all in a 3-wizard party. 3 Elven Generalists with Collegiate Wizard and Uncanny Forethought could handle anything with maximum versatility. A more interesting party would be Focused Specialists, though.

Rapid Summoning-variant Focused Conjurers can handle the most typical dungeon expedition. They provide beatsticks in overpowering fashion, battlefield control in grossly overpowering fashion, and transportation in irreplaceable function. I would just leave the summoning options at Rapid Summoning and the Summon Elemental reserve feat and broaden the character's other powers, but going all into summoning and Malconvoker is perfectly useful and powerful, if somewhat narrowly-focused and sluggish for game speed.

Focused Transmuters are also incredibly versatile, moreso than any other specialist because of the Transmutable Memory ACF, but it takes a higher quantity of Transmutation spells than it does Conjuration spells to engage in a brawl. Transmuters have a wider array of general utility than Conjurers, which is nearly as important as being able to handle combat. If the changeling substitution level works with Focused Specialization and other specialist options, you might as well take it to specialize in both Transmutation and Illusion. In this case Defense is God and you are Pope.

Your last team slot can choose Generalist Wizard to be a versatile character who pitches in wherever he is needed, a direct copy of either of the above Wizards, or someone who specializes in social utility. The Transmuter-Illusionist is probably good at that, but is chancy.

A social specialist should be an Enchanter with the Social Proficiency ACF to add Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, and Sense Motive to his class skill list. Focused Specialist is unnecessary here and detracts from this character's ability to help in non-social encounters - particularly when up against immunities. I'm AFB, but if the Dread Witch PrC in HoH doesn't have anything that hampers social abilities, Focused Specialist becomes more than worthwhile and going all-in for Enchantment would not be such a situational proposition. With fear optimization such a character would have no trouble keeping up with the above two and would contribute reliably and powerfully to combat.

[Greenish]

Focused Dual Specialist would lose four schools. That's starting to cramp one's style a bit.

Besides, both Illusion and Transmutation have spells you'd want to ready every day, so it's not like you gain that much from it.

[Morph Bark]

Focused Dual Specialist would lose four schools. That's starting to cramp one's style a bit.

Besides, both Illusion and Transmutation have spells you'd want to ready every day, so it's not like you gain that much from it.

Focused Specialist Changeling Specialist Wizard 3/Master Specialist 10. :smallamused:

[Greenish]

Focused Specialist Changeling Specialist Wizard 3/Master Specialist 10. :smallamused:That might make it worth it. Though I'd go for the level 5 sub level too, and grab Imp. Familiar. :smalltongue:

[NecroRick]

Casters run out of spells way slower than fighter types run out of HP
.

Wizards run out of hit points a lot faster than fighter-types do.

[Greenish]

Wizards run out of hit points a lot faster than fighter-types do.First level? A lucky kobold with sharp stick could end either one.

[NecroRick]

You're trivially wrong. Assuming we start on level 1, the Wizards will have enough nukes to end a dozen encounters fast. Will enemies make saves? Sure. Much more rarely than a Fighter-type misses though. Offensively, the Wizards are unmatchable from level 1.

Will the Wizards lose Initiative on level 1? Sure. However, they still have AC and HP; they won't be one-shot just because they'll be attacked. The enemies will miss and HPs will absorb hits. Further, if we are starting at level 1 they can certainly all grab Toad-familiars for the +3 HP.

Note, I'm not assuming they use Tower Shields (no need for proficiency to sit behind it), Abrupt Jaunt ACF (easily enough to make them hardier than any Fighter on level 1) or any other simple solution to such problems. They can also buy a Guard Dog or a Riding Dog capable of much the same tasks as Fighter would on those levels. Riding Dog is just 150gp; combined the Wizards have no trouble affording one. Guard Dogs are 25gp.


Low level Wizards are just as good as Fighters with Crossbows, or if Elves, Longbows (though those are expensive). They have less HP and AC but since their offense is many times better than Fighters', they destroy the opposition faster. They have 4 level 1 slots each, so we're looking at no less than 12 encounter enders on level 1. How many games you've played in have had 12 encounters that were seriously challenging in one day? It's not like they need to do anything but Crossbow Attack against single Goblin or something silly like that (guess they can waste a cantrip like Daze if they feel like it). CR 1 encounters are hardly going to bother a party of 3 Wizards much.

4 Kobolds could theoretically be a threat but over and beyond that, barring completely aberrant rolls things like 2 Goblins, 2 Orcs, a Githyanki, a Giant Worker Ant, a Giant Bee or some such isn't going to pose a significant threat to the Wizards. They can also quite reasonably deal with many encounters above their EPL. In general, anything a balanced party can deal with, the Wizards would probably have no trouble dealing with.

Fine. I concede that a bunch of first level wizards who can cast mage armour and multiple shields, as well as at least one crowd kill spell and multiple initiative boosters (some of which are higher than first level) per encounter, these same first level wizards who can shrug off multiple arrows, whom if they choose not to use their fifty or so daily level one spell slots happen to have the same attack bonus as the fighters, due no doubt to their 18 strengths, can beat every encounter without even breaking a sweat.... etc.

However, in return good sir, I ask merely that you concede that you are not playing D&D, but instead must have been talking about some other game entirely, and I was confused by the similarity of the terms, for which I apologise, since the games you and others have described, bear no other similarity, either in internal logic, limitations or consistency to version 3.5 of D&D. Perhaps this topic should have been posted to a different forum? Hackmaster perhaps? I have no great expertise in that system other than a passing familiarity from the comics, but the ease of mowing down multiple encounters which you subscribe to the wizard does seem more characteristic of what little I know of that system rather than D&D???

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Wizard (Conjurer) 3/ Master Specialist 4/ Thaumaturgist 5/ Malconvoker 8, use Rapid Summoning and Martial Wizard, and if possible take Obtain Familiar to trade it for Abrupt Jaunt. Get Arcane Disciple for the Summoner domain to gain access to the Planar Ally line of spells. Get a Ghaele Eladrin for your Planar Cohort.

Druid 3/ Wizard 3/ Mystic Theurge 2/ Arcane Heirophant 10/ Mystic Theurge 2, Greenbound Summoning, Natural Bond, possibly also Wild Cohort and Wizard Animal Companion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererWizard). This easily takes care of low-level tanking.

Still use a Beguiler 1/ Wizard 4/ Ultimate Magus for your trapmonkey/Batman.

[Devmaar]

My choice for a 3 Wizard Party:
Spellstitched Necropolitan Grey Elf Focused Necromancer/Incantatrix,
Bans Evocation, Transmutation, Abjuration
Primary Tactic: Metamagiced Enervation, persist buffs

Snow Elf Focused Transmuter6/Swiftblade9/AbjurantChampion5
Bans Evocation, Necromancy, Enchantment
Primary Tactic: Self-Buff, Disintegrate enemies immune to negative levels

Dragonborn Grey Elf Focused Abjurer/Iot7V
Bans Transmutation, Necromancy, Enchantment
Primary Tactic: Battlefield Control

[Greenish]

Fine. I concede that a bunch of first level wizards who can cast mage armour and multiple shields, as well as at least one crowd kill spell and multiple initiative boosters (some of which are higher than first level) per encounter, these same first level wizards who can shrug off multiple arrows, whom if they choose not to use their fifty or so daily level one spell slots happen to have the same attack bonus as the fighters, due no doubt to their 18 strengths, can beat every encounter without even breaking a sweat.... etc.

However, in return good sir, I ask merely that you concede that you are not playing D&D, but instead must have been talking about some other game entirely, and I was confused by the similarity of the terms, for which I apologise, since the games you and others have described, bear no other similarity, either in internal logic, limitations or consistency to version 3.5 of D&D. Perhaps this topic should have been posted to a different forum? Hackmaster perhaps? I have no great expertise in that system other than a passing familiarity from the comics, but the ease of mowing down multiple encounters which you subscribe to the wizard does seem more characteristic of what little I know of that system rather than D&D???Have you ever tried an all-wizard game?

[NecroRick]

First level? A lucky kobold with sharp stick could end either one.

Well, there's the interesting question of how much more lucky the kobold would need to be to kill the fighter than the wizard. Has the wizard got the same AC as a fighter? Surely not?! Not without using up first level slots. At level 1 even mage armour only lasts an hour, shield at low levels only lasts minutes... did you stop to loot the corpses and search for treasure at the end of the previous encounter? Oops, better cast it again!!!

Has the wizard got the same hit points? No. So the kobold only needs to be lucky once against the wizard, whereas against the fighter-type he needs to be lucky three times.

Statistically speaking, enough kobolds will roll high enough on their initiative, (or saving throw - which amounts to the same thing) to get at least one poke in before the wizard gets off his first (or second) mass kill spell.

[Eldariel]

Fine. I concede that a bunch of first level wizards who can cast mage armour and multiple shields, as well as at least one crowd kill spell and multiple initiative boosters (some of which are higher than first level) per encounter, these same first level wizards who can shrug off multiple arrows, whom if they choose not to use their fifty or so daily level one spell slots happen to have the same attack bonus as the fighters, due no doubt to their 18 strengths, can beat every encounter without even breaking a sweat.... etc.

I didn't bring into account ability to shrug off multiple arrows, initiative boosters or mage armor. You're talking about other peoples' posts. Read mine again. None of that is necessary. You don't need spell-based defenses or support on level 1; you use your slots for offense. Four level 1 slots (1 base + 2 stat + 1 specialization) is plenty.

How many CR 1 encounters involve multiple arrows fired at the party before they can act? Because I'm going to bet it's not every one of them. Sure, there might be one encounter with 8 Kobolds. If they're lucky, half of them will act before the PCs. Each of them can attack with a Sling for 1d3-1 damage at +3 to hit, having about 50% chance of hitting (12-13 AC from Dex + 10).

So they can deal about 3 damage to the PCs before they drop Color Spray, Sleep & Grease taking out the majority of the bunch. Given we're looking at ~8-9 HP (4 HD + 3 Toad + 1-2 Con), none of the Wizards are at a significant risk on the first round and that's a EL 3 encounter focused on masses.

What encounters have "multiple arrows killing a Wizard" without being Overpowering for a level 1 party? Seriously; monsters don't generally have terribly good initiative or to hit with ranged weapons. It's very unlikely that a PC takes multiple hits before they get to act, let alone enough to drop them in an encounter the PCs have a chance in (obviously, doesn't matter what class the PCs are if they're facing that Great Wyrm Red on level 1 and it's not in the mood for talking).


However, in return good sir, I ask merely that you concede that you are not playing D&D, but instead must have been talking about some other game entirely, and I was confused by the similarity of the terms, for which I apologise, since the games you and others have described, bear no other similarity, either in internal logic, limitations or consistency to version 3.5 of D&D. Perhaps this topic should have been posted to a different forum? Hackmaster perhaps? I have no great expertise in that system other than a passing familiarity from the comics, but the ease of mowing down multiple encounters which you subscribe to the wizard does seem more characteristic of what little I know of that system rather than D&D???

I've already played in multiple low level games without martial types. So far I've yet to see PC death in those games due to the amazing capabilities of the spellcasters in D&D 3.5. Can you say the same? Do you have experience or are you just talking? On what basis are you saying what you're saying?

If you have not tried it, perhaps gather a bunch of people relatively competent at 3.5 rules and see if they wouldn't play a party of Wizards and then see how they go about not dying. Hell, maybe even play a Wizard yourself and see about staying alive.

[FMArthur]

Focused Dual Specialist would lose four schools. That's starting to cramp one's style a bit.
That would totally matter if the party didn't include two other wizards. :smalltongue:


Besides, both Illusion and Transmutation have spells you'd want to ready every day, so it's not like you gain that much from it.

I'm not sure what your point is here. This is like saying you don't need a bed that much because you need to sleep. You gain from having more spell slots especially because both schools have lots of spells you'd want to prepare.

[Amphetryon]

For my preferred playstyle?

1. Gnome Diviner, who banned Enchantment.
2. Illumian Necromancer/Jade Pheonix Mage who banned, Evocation and Illusion.
2. Azurin Transmuter/Anima Mage, who banned Enchantment and Evocation.

Unless my memory's shot, both JPM and Anima Mage can be entered as a straight caster with the right feats.

Are there better, more powerful options? Sure thing. I think the above would be the most fun combination, though.

[NNescio]

I'm not sure what your point is here. This is like saying you don't need a bed that much because you need to sleep. You gain from having more spell slots especially because both schools have lots of spells you'd want to prepare.

Dual Specialization doesn't give you more spell slots (compared to a normal specialist). You just get two schools to fill your bonus specialist slots with.

It is nifty, but not all that useful if you are going to prepare three Transmutation or three Illusion spells per spell level anyway (or one from either school, for a non-focused specialist).

It's like buying two beds when you can only sleep in one. Nifty, but not all that useful.

Dual Specialization could work very well with Master Specialist though, depending on interpretation.

[faceroll]

Casters run out of spells way slower than fighter types run out of HP

1 point of HP only costs 1 gold and 36 silver. Pretty damn cheap.

[Morph Bark]

My choice for a 3 Wizard Party:
Spellstitched Necropolitan Grey Elf Focused Necromancer/Incantatrix,
Bans Evocation, Transmutation, Abjuration
Primary Tactic: Metamagiced Enervation, persist buffs

Snow Elf Focused Transmuter6/Swiftblade9/AbjurantChampion5
Bans Evocation, Necromancy, Enchantment
Primary Tactic: Self-Buff, Disintegrate enemies immune to negative levels

Dragonborn Grey Elf Focused Abjurer/Iot7V
Bans Transmutation, Necromancy, Enchantment
Primary Tactic: Battlefield Control

Methinks you messed up somewhere.

[faceroll]

Methinks you messed up somewhere.

Not really. The incantatrix uses a class ability as standard action to either apply persistent spell to spells being cast or spells already in effect. As you can see, the incantatrix could actually have no caster level, but in a party with 2 other full casters, would do just find persisting buffs that were put in place by the other party members.

Disintegrate is transmutation, not necromancy.

[FMArthur]

Dual Specialization doesn't give you more spell slots (compared to a normal specialist). You just get two schools to fill your bonus specialist slots with.

It is nifty, but not all that useful if you are going to prepare three Transmutation or three Illusion spells per spell level anyway (or one from either school, for a non-focused specialist).

It's like buying two beds when you can only sleep in one. Nifty, but not all that useful.

Dual Specialization could work very well with Master Specialist though, depending on interpretation.

Right. And having more of those shared slots because of Focused Specialist is bad why? I was not at any point saying that you get double the specialist slots out of it. It's just really handy to be able to pick spells from two schools when you get such a large number of spell slots out of Focused specialisation, an added versatility which helps to mitigate the loss of a regular slot.

[NNescio]

Right. And having more of those shared slots because of Focused Specialist is bad why? I was not at any point saying that you get double the specialist slots out of it. It's just really handy to be able to pick spells from two schools when you get such a large number of spell slots out of Focused specialisation, an added versatility which helps to mitigate the loss of a regular slot.

Because a Focused Transmuter already has very good reasons to fill up at least three spell slots per level with Transmutation spells:

1: Swift Expeditious Retreat, Nerveskitter, Enlarge Person
2: Rope Trick, Heroics, Alter Self, (Heart of Air), (Quick Potion), (Fox's Cunning)
3: Fly, Haste, Heart of Water
4: Polymorph, Celerity, Heart of Earth
5: Draconic Polymorph, Mass Fly, Lightning Leap, (Heart of Fire), (Transmute Rock to Mud), (Transmute Mud to Rock), (Flesh to Ice)
6: Mental Pinnacle, Brilliant Blade, Flesh to Stone
7: Elemental Body, Glass Strike, Reverse Gravity
8: Polymorph Any Object, Greater Celerity, Ghostform
9: Shapechange, Time Stop, Replicate Casting

See?

And that's only one of each. The Transmuter can take multiple copies of the same spell if needed.

Being able to prepare Illusion spells in those slots as well helps in versatility, but IMHO, it's not worth the opportunity cost, considering how versatile Transmutation spells are in the first place.

[Greenish]

Right. And having more of those shared slots because of Focused Specialist is bad why? I was not at any point saying that you get double the specialist slots out of it. It's just really handy to be able to pick spells from two schools when you get such a large number of spell slots out of Focused specialisation, an added versatility which helps to mitigate the loss of a regular slot.But there are enough spells in either school to fill those specialist slots with stuff you'll want. Is the option of choosing between spells which all are good enough really worth another banned school?

[Edit]: I'm not saying it's terrible or that it's bad, I'm just pointing out it's not that good.

[Acanous]

well, I'd start off with a Transmuter, a Conjurer, and an Abjurer, just to have my three bases covered.

Conjurer bans Necromancy/Evocation, Transmuter bans Illusion/Enchantment, and Abjurer bans Conjuration and Transmutation- Mostly because you've got a conjurer and transmuter already, but partially because Abjurers have a hard time dispelling most conjuration effects ANYWAY.

Transmuter goes Master Specialist/Red Wizard/Archmage, Conjurer goes Master Specialist/Red Wizard/Malconvoker, and Abjurer goes Master Specialist/Red Wizard/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil.

Now you can deal with any threat, magical or mundane, without breaking action economy or going batman.

You can still pull Red Wizard Rituals to give each caster a daily "Win Button", but I like to think of it as a "Unique Special Spell" :3

[Morph Bark]

Disintegrate is transmutation, not necromancy.

Had to recheck this. I honestly thought it was necromancy. :smallconfused: No wonder it is considered one of the lesser schools for a wizard. :smallfrown:

[JaronK]

what's the best... aren't stinky cheese.

Seriously, the best is full of stinky cheese. This is something of a nonsense question, akin to asking "what's the most powerful option, not including the options I'd think are too powerful?" You have to pick the exact power level that you want, and then the answer is "that power level." So what's anyone else supposed to say?

JaronK

[deuxhero]

uh... how about Test of Spite ban-list for "stinky cheese"

[Wings of Peace]

uh... how about Test of Spite ban-list for "stinky cheese"

Have you seen the fights that happen even with that ban list? :smallamused:

[dextercorvia]

1 point of HP only costs 1 gold and 36 silver. Pretty damn cheap.

I presume that this is based on a Wand of Lesser Vigor, but I'm too lazy to check. I can tell that it isn't based off of a Scroll or Potion, despite Wands being out of the price range of a 1st level character.

I'm also fairly certain that you have a typo, as 1 gold and 36 silver is actually 4 gold and 6 silver, and that isn't cheap at all, considering that makes 3HP=1 1st level spell.

[Greenish]

I'm also fairly certain that you have a typo, as 1 gold and 36 silver is actually 4 gold and 6 silver, and that isn't cheap at all, considering that makes 3HP=1 1st level spell.750gp/550hp≈1.36gp/hp.

[faceroll]

I presume that this is based on a Wand of Lesser Vigor, but I'm too lazy to check. I can tell that it isn't based off of a Scroll or Potion, despite Wands being out of the price range of a 1st level character.

Just get 'em partially charged. :smallwink:


I'm also fairly certain that you have a typo, as 1 gold and 36 silver is actually 4 gold and 6 silver, and that isn't cheap at all, considering that makes 3HP=1 1st level spell.

Oh yeah, one gold, 3 silver, 6 copper. Stupid non-hundreths system.

[Greenish]

Stupid non-hundreths system.Seconded. :smallredface:

[dextercorvia]

750gp/550hp≈1.36gp/hp.

Hey, I guessed right.


Just get 'em partially charged. :smallwink:


Indubitably. Of course if the Wizards are Warforged then they can Repair themselves.