Divinations and automatic wins

[Yora]

Lots of people claim that wizards can deal with everything because they have spells for every possible situation. And they also can use divinations to always have the right spells prepared that they will need.

The issue is divinations, which allow wizards to know what they'll be facing, hence the term "scry-and-die".
To me, this sounds highly inaccurate to the point of being completely wrong.

We're assuming a wizard or cleric here who prepares all his spells in the morning to be prepared for anything he'll encounter during the next 24 hours.

What divination spells do we have?
Augury: Tells you if a specific action will have good or bad results. You could ask if preparing a specific spell would be a good idea or a bad idea, but it can only predict the future for about half an hour, so not much help.
Clairaudience/Clairvoyance: Allows you to watch or listen into a specific area. It provides no information what creatures might be in that location at a later time or what abilities they have.
Commune: You can ask one question per level to your deity that can be answered by yes or no. Since deities don't know everything, particularly when it's about predicting the future, you have to word your questions very specifically. It also costs 100 xp every time you cast it.
Commune with Nature: Gives you a general idea of what creatures are within a several miles radius distance. "presence of powerful unnatural creatures" sounds like something like "there are demons in this forest" not "there is one cornugon fighter 4 in the top room of the tower and three barbazus with +2 flaming glaives in the basement".
Contact other Plane: More difficult to pull off than Commune, but the results are about the same.
Discern Location: Tells you exactly where an individual or specific object is. It tells you the name of the country and building the target is currently located at, which should be enough to gather enough information for a teleport, but that still does not solve the question what spells you'll need when you get there.
Divination: Gives you one short piece of advice for one event within a week, provided the situation does not change during that time. "Prepare for fire attacks" or "use electricity attacks against the target" would probably as useful information as the spell can give you.
Locate creature, locate object: Tells you the direction to a specific object or creature as long as it is within 400 ft + 40 ft/level. That's just 360 meters radius at level 20. No help at all in preparing the best spells (except maybe that you have to teleport across a chasm to reach it tomorrow).
Prying eyes: Only provides visual information. May be a bit of a help if you discover a monsters lair and you know you need ice spells to harm a red dragon, but really not that helpful. Useless if you already know who your enemy is.
Scrying: A beefed up clairaudience/clairvoyance spell.

How do any of these spells help you in preparing for the spells an enemy spellcaster will use against you? What other spells would do the job?
Let's also consider that not all characters have caster level 20th. If you describe a tactic, also mention if it's possible to pull of at 6th, 12th, or 18th level.

[ILM]

Not having read the context of the quote, I'd say the meaning sound more like 'scry and die lets you choose the terms of your own fights' rather than 'you can guess everything your enemies will do'. Start the adventuring day, scry, teleport in, nuke everything, teleport out. Or scry the previous day and gather info on the target to know if you should prepare fireballs or cones of cold.

[PersonMan]

Not having read the context of the quote, I'd say the meaning sound more like 'scry and die lets you choose the terms of your own fights' rather than 'you can guess everything your enemies will do'. Start the adventuring day, scry, teleport in, nuke everything, teleport out. Or scry the previous day and gather info on the target to know if you should prepare fireballs or cones of cold.

Yeah, IIRC scy'n'die is 'scry, check defenses, buff, 'port in, nova, 'port out', as opposed to finding out what you'll be doing that day.

[Greenish]

How do any of these spells help you in preparing for the spells an enemy spellcaster will use against you?Scry to see what tactics they use. Legend Lore can probably also tell you quite a bit (especially past level 10).

In general, Scry and Die means you already know who you're going to fight, because you're actively going out and fighting them.

[Drakevarg]

Scry to see what tactics they use.

If Scrying just lets you see what they're doing at the time, how does it let you know what tactics they use unless they just happen to be in an epic battle at the time? I don't see how helpful it could be to scry in on the Evil Overlord enjoying a bowl of oatmeal. :smallconfused:

[Greenish]

If Scrying just lets you see what they're doing at the time, how does it let you know what tactics they use unless they just happen to be in an epic battle at the time?Well, you could dupe someone into attacking them for you, but I was thinking of just getting lucky. :smalltongue:


I don't see how helpful it could be to scry in on the Evil Overlord enjoying a bowl of oatmeal.It tells you that they have to eat (which is not a given), or at least that they do, for one reason or another. There may be a way to use that knowledge against them at later date. :smallwink:

[Drakevarg]

Well, you could dupe someone into attacking them for you, but I was thinking of just getting lucky. :smalltongue:

Unless your DM was being deliberately stupid, I don't see many situations in which your enemy would just 'happen' to be in a fight, especially a fight tough enough to make him go all-out, at the time that you decide to scry on him. Especially when you consider that most fights happen over the course of less than a minute.

And if you have the resources to simply hire people to go fight him that are tough enough to make him go all-out so you can spy on his tactics, the entire idea of Scry-and-Die just seems redundant at that point. Just order a hit on the dude and go order pizza.

[Cuaqchi]

As was pointed out you are forgetting step two of the spellcaster I win button. It's the one that uses Abjuration and Transmutation almost exclusively, (Protection from X, Spellturning (Good for 1-2 rounds as a safety net against losing surprise and/or initiative), Stoneskin, Haste, etc.) and generally is what determines the winner even more than Divination since it is the use of the intelligence gathered that really determines the outcome of the conflict.

[gkathellar]

It tells you that they have to eat (which is not a given), or at least that they do, for one reason or another. There may be a way to use that knowledge against them at later date. :smallwink:

"'The ones in this handwriting,' he said, still in that low voice, 'were written by your mother. And the ones in this handwriting,' moving his finger to indicate the first scrawl, 'were written by me. I would turn myself invisible and sneak into her dorm room while she was sleeping. Lily thought one of her friends was the one writing them and they had the most amazing fights.'" — LessWrong

[Fouredged Sword]

It is more the art of scry - buft - teleport - disjunct - followed by a swarm of followers with wands of fell drain sonic snap to ensure that you are fighting a foe who has around 20 or so negative levels. At that point his preperations are less than functional.

It is about hiting hard when your foe least expects it and augry will tell you to call it off or not just before the jump. If it's a bad idea then you know to look up more information and try again without your foe being any of the wiser.

The last thing he sees is a wizard and a bunch of kobolds apear suddenly out of thin air.

[Urpriest]

Echoing the previous posters, the point of being a Batman Wizard/using Scry&Die is that you choose your own battles. You know (roughly, yes) what you're fighting because you have chosen that particular fight, not because you know everything that's going to happen in advance.

Note that for Contact Other Plane the entity in question will only be ignorant of the answer if you roll that on the table. Otherwise that result wouldn't be on the table in the first place. As for Commune, many powerful deities have knowledge of certain types of events long in advance. You do have to pick the portfolio carefully, however.

[Eldariel]

For actual information-providing divinations, Contact Other Plane and Commune are the most used.

Basically, you reduce the game to a series of questions. The important point on COP is that you can get any one-word answer, not just "yes" or "no" enabling much more complex questions with an unambiguous answer. For example, casting COP for each of your spell slots asking "Which spell is the best for me to fill this slot with for the purposes of X this day?" You obviously need to automake the stat check for COP to be efficient but that's easy enough point to reach. COP can generally be used to divine:
- Times (for doing something, for when you'll be attacked, etc.)
- Strongest spell a target can cast
- Best spells for you to prepare in any given slot
- Entities that threaten you
- Any dangerous magic items you need to be aware of

All that.


Commune is used to Yes/No everything; you can pinpoint items by properly formulating your questions ("Splitting X map at Y point, is Z on the east side of the split?" - after harrowing the plane it's on of course). You can also check through a target's combat capabilities, e.g. whether or not they are capable of casting certain spells and whether they're warded by certain spells.

COP is better suited for figuring out what their contingencies are keyed off but Commune can be used to figure out how many types of active defenses they have in place. Commune in general needs to be more specific but given the number of questions you get, it's still quite strong especially for pinpointing objects and in general, for stuff that can be formulated into an unambiguous Yes/No question.


Wizards, of course, use Commune through Planar Bound creatures or Improved Familiars as SLAs thus ignoring the costs. Mind control magic can be used to ensure that the procedures are followed correctly.

[Drakevarg]

Note that for Contact Other Plane the entity in question will only be ignorant of the answer if you roll that on the table. Otherwise that result wouldn't be on the table in the first place. As for Commune, many powerful deities have knowledge of certain types of events long in advance. You do have to pick the portfolio carefully, however.

Unless of course the DM doesn't know the answer either, in which case you're SOL. Oh, and:
True Answer: You get a true, one-word answer. Questions that cannot be answered this way are answered randomly. Meaning that if the contacted entity doesn't have a clue, it just pulls one wholesale out of its arse. Satisfaction never guaranteed.

Also, doesn't the entire concept of Scry-and-Die rely on your opponent not being just as hyperprepared as you are? After all, if your DM is well aware that you're not only capable but prone to such tactics, he's likely to give you enemies that can withstand that.

[mucco]

One of the tactics my players use is casting Contact Other Plane to find stuff quickly, bypassing Locate X. Since the spell can give a "one-word answer", they ask the following questions.
1. How many feet is my target far from me?
2. How many degrees right do I have to turn to face my target?
3. How many degrees up (or down) do I have to turn to face my target?

Pinpoint.

The english wording might need refining, we do it in our mother tongue and it sounds better. :smalltongue:

They usually use their remaining questions to inquire about the strengths of their foe, like "how many people defend him?", "are there arcane casters?", "what schools do they specialize in?", "what is the (first word of the) signature ability of my target?" and so on.

[Urpriest]

Unless of course the DM doesn't know the answer either, in which case you're SOL. Oh, and: Meaning that if the contacted entity doesn't have a clue, it just pulls one wholesale out of its arse. Satisfaction never guaranteed.

Also, doesn't the entire concept of Scry-and-Die rely on your opponent not being just as hyperprepared as you are? After all, if your DM is well aware that you're not only capable but prone to such tactics, he's likely to give you enemies that can withstand that.

If the DM doesn't know the answer then they make one up and are now forced to awkwardly push the game in that direction. It's great fun.

And again, that clause can't refer to ignorance because there's a spot on the table for that. Instead it refers to questions which can't be answered in one word.

[Drakevarg]

And again, that clause can't refer to ignorance because there's a spot on the table for that. Instead it refers to questions which can't be answered in one word.

"Random Answer" means that "the entity tries to lie but doesn't know the answer, so it makes one up." It would follow that it could just be another form of ignorance, since there are obviously plenty of conditions where ringing up some random bloke on the Plane of Fire isn't going to give any useful information, even if the d% rolls says otherwise.

Plus, "random results obtained from the table are subject to DM changes." Which could be used as railroading, sure, but it could also be used to point out that opening up a multiplanar phonebook and calling random numbers is not nessicarily an effective information gathering tool. :smalltongue:

[Drachasor]

And it isn't like the DM can't stop this. Problem is, a DM dealing with a wizard/cleric/druid/etc playing at the T1 level has to stop a whole bunch of stuff. They can easily have a dozen different way to go at a problem.

Teleport not allowed inside? They can make a tunnel underground really quick. Lave lake and a floating island on the lava? They can deal with that while tunneling. 10 feet of steel stopping them after that? Child's play.

However impregnable a fortress or anything else might appear these casters can deal with it, and often by the time or before they get 5th level spells -- lava is a bit tricky, but that's it.

If you make it truly impregnable somehow, then they can kill people in it with magic from far, far away. Lots of ways to do that, even if you exclude the Evil routes.

It's a pain for a DM to deal with, and that's excluding dirty spell tricks. In the end, Scry and Die is just one tool in a very large toolbox.

[Urpriest]

"Random Answer" means that "the entity tries to lie but doesn't know the answer, so it makes one up." It would follow that it could just be another form of ignorance, since there are obviously plenty of conditions where ringing up some random bloke on the Plane of Fire isn't going to give any useful information, even if the d% rolls says otherwise.

Plus, "random results obtained from the table are subject to DM changes." Which could be used as railroading, sure, but it could also be used to point out that opening up a multiplanar phonebook and calling random numbers is not nessicarily an effective information gathering tool. :smalltongue:

This is a classic example of the exception that proves the rule. Note that Random Answer is again different from Lie, the only difference being that in one case the entity knows the answer and in one they don't. The spell is designed with the idea in mind that the entity either will know or not know the answer based on the result of the table alone, otherwise none of the categories make sense. Which (if you're looking to be exceptionally cheesy) means you can potentially (with some randomness) force entities to retroactively gain knowledge. Only do this if you also like using Sandshaper to make barricades 5 minutes ago.

[hewhosaysfish]

One of the tactics my players use is casting Contact Other Plane to find stuff quickly, bypassing Locate X. Since the spell can give a "one-word answer", they ask the following questions.
1. How many feet is my target far from me?
2. How many degrees right do I have to turn to face my target?
3. How many degrees up (or down) do I have to turn to face my target?

Pinpoint.

The english wording might need refining, we do it in our mother tongue and it sounds better. :smalltongue:

They usually use their remaining questions to inquire about the strengths of their foe, like "how many people defend him?", "are there arcane casters?", "what schools do they specialize in?", "what is the (first word of the) signature ability of my target?" and so on.

What is your mother tongue, mucco?
Because if your target is 5863 feet away, on a bearing of 137 degrees (clockwise) from your current direction... There's no easy way express those numbers in one word of English. Except for saying "Lots".

Of course, a DnD wizard might ask his questions in Elven/Draconic/Modron/Aboleth as appropriate to dodge this issue.

[mucco]

What is your mother tongue, mucco?
Because if your target is 5863 feet away, on a bearing of 137 degrees (clockwise) from your current direction... There's no easy way express those numbers in one word of English. Except for saying "Lots".

Of course, a DnD wizard might ask his questions in Elven/Draconic/Modron/Aboleth as appropriate to dodge this issue.

Italian - numbers are only one word until you get to millions, at least.

And yes, wizards get many tongues to choose from. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: or what has been said under here. Binary search is used extensively.

[Drachasor]

What is your mother tongue, mucco?
Because if your target is 5863 feet away, on a bearing of 137 degrees (clockwise) from your current direction... There's no easy way express those numbers in one word of English. Except for saying "Lots".

Of course, a DnD wizard might ask his questions in Elven/Draconic/Modron/Aboleth as appropriate to dodge this issue.

There are plenty of easy ways of getting that information. You could do a binary search (are they within 5000 ft? Yes. 2500? No. Etc). You'll get close enough very quickly. If you can get actual one-word answers, you can divvy up the possibilities into far more options -- like what's the closest one-word number to the distance? And work from there.

[Midnight_v]

I'm pretty sure I saw it work like what Eldariel said except I hear a lot of people going to sleep early on thursday and waking up on Scryday, and pretty much planning out the week for anything that might happen.
Now this gets much easier when you have more than one caster in the party, and basically you commune/CoP/Scry up all the things that you think might happen.
Though basically you get the fights you want and can escape from the ones you don't want.

I don't see how helpful it could be to scry in on the Evil Overlord enjoying a bowl of oatmeal.
Well, its not always going to be that when you do it. Further, if you can ever figure out a way to get to him right then. . . well... the term "Caught Slipping" pops up. Evil overlord in his most defensless position is a good deal.

[Frozen_Feet]

One thing that's missing here is that a Wizard needs a whole lot of time to do all the proper divinations for a given scenario. It's 8 or so hours to prepare your spells for preparing, then some time to cast all the necessary spells, then another 8 hours to load your actual ammo.

Considering how many divinations give situational information, a Wizard can easily trip on outdated data or a poorly-worded question. So, while you can theoretically reduce the game to a series of binary questions... you darn well aren't winning the game fast!

[Drachasor]

One thing that's missing here is that a Wizard needs a whole lot of time to do all the proper divinations for a given scenario. It's 8 or so hours to prepare your spells for preparing, then some time to cast all the necessary spells, then another 8 hours to load your actual ammo.

Considering how many divinations give situational information, a Wizard can easily trip on outdated data or a poorly-worded question. So, while you can theoretically reduce the game to a series of binary questions... you darn well aren't winning the game fast!

It's a far, far, far easier way to get intel than actual infiltration.

[Drakevarg]

Considering how many divinations give situational information, a Wizard can easily trip on outdated data or a poorly-worded question. So, while you can theoretically reduce the game to a series of binary questions... you darn well aren't winning the game fast!

Plus if you throw dozens of divinations in their general direction, it seems like there's a good chance that the target will detect one or two of them and promptly carpet bomb the town you're in.

[Midnight_v]

Plus if you throw dozens of divinations in their general direction, it seems like there's a good chance that the target will detect one or two of them and promptly carpet bomb the town you're in.

Maybe. Depends who you're divining on. MOST creatures in the MM 1-5 really wouldn't have any defense against it. At ALL.
What's your divination defense spell? Answer without googling, or your likely way off base.

Further in the case of commune and CoP no ones firing anything in a targets direction. They're asking about them from a 3rd party who simply knows.
So yeah. . . the caster will be doign the carpet bombing.

[Frozen_Feet]

It's a far, far, far easier way to get intel than actual infiltration.

Considering the spells a Wizard could use for actual infiltration, I'm not alltogether convinved...

[Saph]

Something worth bearing in mind when it comes to divinations is that D&D deities don't know everything. If you read the description of the Commune spell, one of the things it says is:


“Unclear” is a legitimate answer, because powerful beings of the Outer Planes are not necessarily omniscient.

The D&D universe also isn't deterministic or predestined (at least not if you're using dice or players), so asking questions whose answers depend upon future events is going to give totally unreliable answers. Ditto for vague subjective questions like "Which X is the best for Y?"

I usually find that the most interesting way to run deity-contacting divination spells is to make it depend on the deity. If you just pick a random deity's name out of the cosmic phonebook you'll get much less reliable information than if you pick a deity whose portfolio and areas of interest match with what you're asking about.

[Drakevarg]

Maybe. Depends who you're divining on. MOST creatures in the MM 1-5 really wouldn't have any defense against it. At ALL.

And most of the creatures in the MM 1-5 don't really warrant a Scry-and-Die when you can just send some flavor of death in their general direction. Scry-and-Die, at least by my understanding, is something that's used more for big time villains that would utterly trash the party if they tried the more traditional approach of kicking down the front door and fighting the bloke in his throne room.


What's your divination defense spell? Answer without googling, or your likely way off base.

Misdirection, Mind Blank, Nondetection, Obscure Object, Detect Scrying, Private Sanctum, False Vision, Sequester...

Just as an example, I have a villain in my setting that has a healthy supply of mindraped minions who could easily cast these for him on a daily basis so he doesn't even need to waste spells doing so.


Further in the case of commune and CoP no ones firing anything in a targets direction. They're asking about them from a 3rd party who simply knows.
So yeah. . . the caster will be doign the carpet bombing.

As I mentioned earlier, 3rd party sources of information aren't necessarily reliable.

[LordBlades]

My favorite use of CoP(when allowed, which isn't very often because it's not only powerful, but also a DM headache) is determining the perfect spell list. Contact a greater deity of magic, whose portfolio sense allows it to know events related to magic for 1 week in the future per divine rank, which includes me casting spells tomorrow. I do the following: I recite my spellbook, assigning one word names to all spells(which the deity now knows due to portfolio sense). Then I start asking:

'What's the name that I use for the first/second/third/whatever most useful spell in my spellbook that will be most useful for me to prepare tomorrow?'

I also use CoP for stuff like:

'How many groups of creatures will try to attack me tomorrow?'
'How many in first/second/third/whatever group?'
'How many spellcasters in the first/second/whatever group?'
'The highest level spell the first spellcaster can cast?'
'What list can he cast from?'
'What's his creature type?'
Rinse and repeat as needed.

[Talya]

Of course, even greater gods are not omniscient (and the wizard isn't stupid enough to be bothering them with Contact Other Plane anyway.)

Anybody who thinks a wizard can use COP to know exactly what's coming, hasn't read the spell. The spell is highly unreliable, even if contacting greater gods, and even a level 20 wizard with 28 intelligence and a +6 headband of intellect has a 15% chance of becoming a spellless commoner for five weeks by trying to contact one. The lower powered informants with safer DCs are a lot like using supermarket tabloids to get your information.

[Drachasor]

Considering the spells a Wizard could use for actual infiltration, I'm not alltogether convinved...

Actual infiltration risks getting caught and killed.

[Saph]

'How many groups of creatures will try to attack me tomorrow?'

Depends on what actions you take.


'How many in first/second/third/whatever group?'

Depends on what actions you take.


'How many spellcasters in the first/second/whatever group?'

Depends on . . . you get the idea.

D&D isn't predestined. Find a roll you have a chance of success and a chance of failure for, then cast CoP and ask: "Will I succeed at X action?" If the answer is "yes", this has no bearing on whether the d20 roll will be a success or not. Same if the answer is "no".

[LordBlades]

Anybody who thinks a wizard can use COP to know exactly what's coming, hasn't read the spell. The spell is highly unreliable, even if contacting greater gods, and even a level 20 wizard with 28 intelligence and a +6 headband of intellect has a 15% chance of becoming a spellless commoner for five weeks by trying to contact one. The lower powered informants with safer DCs are a lot like using supermarket tabloids to get your information.

By RAW you can take 10 on CoP int check. Also level 20 wizards usually have 18-20 base+3 venerable+5 tome+5 level+6 headband=39 int (+14 modifier) so they can only fail on a natural one (or 2) and for that there's a ****ton of reroll spells and items.

[Drachasor]

D&D isn't predestined.

Doesn't that technically depend on the setting?

[mucco]

Of course, even greater gods are not omniscient (and the wizard isn't stupid enough to be bothering them with Contact Other Plane anyway.)

Anybody who thinks a wizard can use COP to know exactly what's coming, hasn't read the spell. The spell is highly unreliable, even if contacting greater gods, and even a level 20 wizard with 28 intelligence and a +6 headband of intellect has a 15% chance of becoming a spellless commoner for five weeks by trying to contact one. The lower powered informants with safer DCs are a lot like using supermarket tabloids to get your information.

My party always goes to great lengths to succeed on a roll of 1. This sometimes includes casting Bestow Curse to advance age categories (and dispelling after COP) and gathering every possible buff in the world.

By RAW, you can take 10 on the Int check though. I've houseruled that you can not, but that's a houserule.

[LordBlades]

D&D isn't predestined. Find a roll you have a chance of success and a chance of failure for, then cast CoP and ask: "Will I succeed at X action?" If the answer is "yes", this has no bearing on whether the d20 roll will be a success or not. Same if the answer is "no".

It's not predestined for the players, but for a deity with the appropriate portfolio, he/she can sense what will happen in the future. A greater deity of magic can see whether that monster will make it's save vs slay living next round even if I or the DM can't possibly know.

[Talya]

That wouldn't be a houserule. That would simply be a valid and likely interpretation of:


Taking 10
When your character is not being threatened or distracted, you may choose to take 10. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, calculate your result as if you had rolled a 10. For many routine tasks, taking 10 makes them automatically successful. Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10. In most cases, taking 10 is purely a safety measure —you know (or expect) that an average roll will succeed but fear that a poor roll might fail, so you elect to settle for the average roll (a 10). Taking 10 is especially useful in situations where a particularly high roll wouldn’t help.


Casting the spell and contacting another plane is inherently threatening to the person casting it. It is NOT routine.

[Saph]

Doesn't that technically depend on the setting?

Not unless you eliminate dice and players.

As long as the players are free to make decisions and roll dice, then the DM (and thus the campaign deities) can't predict what the PCs are going to do in the next six seconds, much less the next week.


It's not predestined for the players, but for a deity with the appropriate portfolio, he/she can sense what will happen in the future. A greater deity of magic can see whether that monster will make it's save vs slay living next round even if I or the DM can't possibly know.

Player: "Will that monster make its save vs slay living next round?"
DM: "How should I know?"
Player: "Well, I'm asking the deity."
DM: "Okay, you ask the deity and he says 'maybe'."
Player: "That's not fair! It says you have to give me a true answer!"
DM: "That is a true answer."
Player: "But it says the answer has to be yes or no!"
DM: "No it doesn't."
Player: "That's not fair! You're houseruling! The RAW says you have to give me a yes or no answer!"
DM: "Fine, whatever. The deity says 'no'."
Player: "Yay! I cast slay living!"
DM: *roll* "Saves."
Player: "But the deity said no!"
DM: "Yeah, well the dice says 17."

[Talya]

It's not predestined for the players, but for a deity with the appropriate portfolio, he/she can sense what will happen in the future. A greater deity of magic can see whether that monster will make it's save vs slay living next round even if I or the DM can't possibly know.

That's only true if the result is predestined. The game is full of random events. Ao himself, if somehow compelled to answer, doesn't know what the result on the die roll will be unless his fudges it himself.

[Drachasor]

It's not predestined for the players, but for a deity with the appropriate portfolio, he/she can sense what will happen in the future. A greater deity of magic can see whether that monster will make it's save vs slay living next round even if I or the DM can't possibly know.

To be clear, the GM can, with 100% RAW support, declare a question doesn't have an answer.


Not unless you eliminate dice and players.

As long as the players are free to make decisions and roll dice, then the DM (and thus the campaign deities) can't predict what the PCs are going to do in the next six seconds, much less the next week.

Well, as far as what you'll encounter the next day, that requires no dice or players for the DM to MAKE it happen. Of course, you could ask "what will we encounter if we do X" which makes it easier on the DM.

Given Rule 0, the GM can also decide to make the dice not matter for a particular event. He's free to not do that too.

[mucco]

Casting the spell and contacting another plane is inherently threatening to the person casting it. It is NOT routine.

Nothing in the spell's description seems to say anything in regard, though. I agree with you but RAW does not support us.

[Drakevarg]

Nothing in the spell's description seems to say anything in regard, though. I agree with you but RAW does not support us.

The fact that screwing it up renders you mildly retarded for a few weeks and incapable of casting spells probably qualifies as "threatening."

[Amphetryon]

That wouldn't be a houserule. That would simply be a valid and likely interpretation of:




Casting the spell and contacting another plane is inherently threatening to the person casting it. It is NOT routine.By that logic, an assassin (small A) searching the history books to find clues to a lich's phylactery location so he can dispatch the phylactery is inherently threatening also, and shouldn't be allowed. You can extrapolate it out to any check I can think of being potentially threatening to someone and, therefore, ineligible for the Take Ten rule. Is it your belief that the Take Ten rule is never applicable?

[Drachasor]

Casting the spell and contacting another plane is inherently threatening to the person casting it. It is NOT routine.

Do you realize how few phone calls they actually get? Spawn a demigod and help him grow up and after a 1000 years can he even be bothered to call his mother once a week? Of course not! He's too "busy" or "got sidetracked" or "forgot." Would it hurt to show his mother a little love?

Edit: The int check covers that. Also, it says you get a one-word answer, but that doesn't mean you only hear one word from the deity. They like to go on and on about other stuff.

[LordBlades]

That wouldn't be a houserule. That would simply be a valid and likely interpretation of:




Casting the spell and contacting another plane is inherently threatening to the person casting it. It is NOT routine.

Well, the skill entry makes explicit distinction between 'threatened' (which prevents you from either taking 10 or taking 20) and 'the skill carries a penalty for failure' (which only prevents you from taking 20)

From the CoP text:




If the check fails, your Intelligence and Charisma scores each fall to 8 for the stated duration, and you become unable to cast arcane spells.


What else is that but an explicit penalty for failure?


If CoP was threatening you, you'd have to make concentration checks every round to maintain it.




That's only true if the result is predestined. The game is full of random events. Ao himself, if somehow compelled to answer, doesn't know what the result on the die roll will be unless his fudges it himself.

Yes he does, see the RAW text on portfolio sense:



Greater deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios, regardless of the number of people involved. In addition, their senses extend one week into the past and one week into the future for every divine rank they have. When a deity senses an event, it merely knows that the event is occurring and where it is.

To follow my earlier example, according to that, the deity of magic can perceive every saving throw anyone has to make vs. spells within 1 week/divine rank, and know if they fail or not (spell succeeds or not).

[Talya]

Is it your belief that the Take Ten rule is never applicable?

Take 10 is only applicable for routine, nonthreatening situations (barring class features that let you use it more liberally for certain skills). It's primarily used to handwave away things that by RAW require rolls but should not (Spot: seeing the person standing in front of you talking to you, climbing a set of stairs, etc.) You take 10 on use rope when you tie your boat to the dock. You take 10 on a perform check when playing a peice you've played many times before. You take 10 on knowledge to know routine details. Any time that a person is under pressure, especially taking an action that would carry a dire consequence for failure, by RAW, it's no longer possible.

In this case, an extraplaner force is threatening to suck away your wit, which is pretty much going to leave you helpless and likely dead, given your vocation. Yeah, that's going to prevent a take 10. That doesn't require a houserule. The rules on taking 10 specifically leave it up to the DM to decide what's threatening or distracting. It doesn't take much imagination to consider a great extraplanar force about to suck out your smarts and turn you into a helpless imbecile threatening.

[Greenish]

Not unless you eliminate dice and players.Now, now, "eliminate" is such an ugly word. We railroaders prefer the term "sideline for the story". :smallwink:

[Saph]

To follow my earlier example, according to that, the deity of magic can perceive every saving throw anyone has to make vs. spells within 1 week/divine rank, and know if they fail or not (spell succeeds or not).

*shrug* If you'd really rather follow RAW than the laws of temporal causality, then here's a RAW solution to players who try and ask impossible or annoying questions:

Contact Other Plane says that the answers on a low percentage roll are true. It doesn't say that they're helpful, or comprehensible, or relevant. So possible answers to any question, at DM discretion, include:

"Maybe."
"Irrelevant."
"Unimportant."
"Contradictory."
"Mu."
"RTFM."
"Whatever."
"Null."
"Lothanotrix."*

*This is a word in Draconic which translates approximately as "You are an unimportant lesser being who is wasting my infinitely valuable time. Please go away." Dragons have several words for this concept, as it's something they find themselves saying quite often.

[Rogue Shadows]

*This is a word in Draconic which translates approximately as "You are an unimportant lesser being who is wasting my infinitely valuable time. Please go away." Dragons have several words for this concept, as it's something they find themselves saying quite often.

To be fair, however...deities can answer these questions the same way that they grant divine spells to their thousands of cleric worshippers - subconsciously. They're aware of having answered a given question in the same way that we're aware of our own breathing; they don't actually have any of their time wasted.

[Saph]

To be fair, however...deities can answer these questions the same way that they grant divine spells to their thousands of cleric worshippers - subconsciously. They're aware of having answered a given question in the same way that we're aware of our own breathing; they don't actually have any of their time wasted.

It says in the spell description of CoP that the entities "resent the contact".

[Rogue Shadows]

It says in the spell description of CoP that the entities "resent the contact".

They...resent having to breathe in your general direction, then. I don't know; Deities & Demigods made it pretty clear that deities don't actually put concious effort into answering such questions.

I always assumed that the "resentment" took form in the fact that they're only giving one-word answers; that's how I'm reading the spell, anyway.

[Frozen_Feet]

'What's the name that I use for the first/second/third/whatever most useful spell in my spellbook that will be most useful for me to prepare tomorrow?'

I also use CoP for stuff like:

'How many groups of creatures will try to attack me tomorrow?'
'How many in first/second/third/whatever group?'
'How many spellcasters in the first/second/whatever group?'
'The highest level spell the first spellcaster can cast?'
'What list can he cast from?'
'What's his creature type?'
Rinse and repeat as needed.

Almost all of those are too situational to answer correctly in one word, or less than five, meaning you are likely to get random or probable answers, instead of definite ones. Or, you know, just "unclear".

Nevermind that going by that list, you just used six fifth level spell slots to assess a single opponent, out of who knows how many. Let's assume four encounters with four enemies each; that's 24 spells to discern the threat posed by just the potential spellcasters. By what level are you pulling that out? If you are using those spells yourself, you just spend four hours for the task. That's not something you can do in a hurry.

It's also 24 points of failure for that Int check, and you might get useless answers, or no answers at all.


Actual infiltration risks getting caught and killed.
Summon/call/create invisible and intangible goons to do the job for you. The risks are near nill. As a bonus, they might allow for taking action on the spot, instead of leaving you to ponder on cryptic information to potentially get just the right spells.

[Calimehter]

My take on it is pretty much Saphs, but I had one other thought too:

Wouldn't a likely target for information gathering spells *also* be able to use COP to determine whether or not somebody has used information gathering spells against them? Wouldn't they also then be able to ask further questions to find out what information had been gathered, and take specific precautions (if possible) to protect the specific weaknesses that had been asked about?

[NichG]

So as far as the table being the sole arbiter of whether the target creature knows the answer:



Once the Outer Planes are reached, the power of the deity contacted determines the effects. (Random results obtained from the table are subject to the personalities of individual deities.)


A strict reading of that implies that the Astral is the best place you can go for omniscience, but beyond that one can expect 'Dunno' or 'Go away' to be very common results.

Additionally,



On rare occasions, this divination may be blocked by an act of certain deities or forces.


implies that if you're dealing with something important to a deity and they want everyone else to stop giving you the answers, they can pull the plug and block it. So pretty much any time you're up against someone powerful enough to be important to their deity or the servants of a deity themselves, you could expect this to fail.

Or if you annoy the gods to the point they just want you to stop playing a game of 20 questions with them every morning.

[Rogue Shadows]

Nevermind that going by that list, you just used six fifth level spell slots to assess a single opponent, out of who knows how many.

Well...no. You can ask one question per two caster levels. Since CoC is a 5th level spell, that means that at bare minimum you get 5 questions per casting.

[Infernalbargain]

Let us assume that your target is worthy of scry-and-die tactics. Let us assume that you are capable of scry-and-die tactics. Traditionally, BBEG has been doing their thing for longer than the adventurers have been trying to interrupt it. Let us also assume that all this works. So here's my question: why aren't you dead?

[Frozen_Feet]

Oh? I forgot that aspect. Still going to cost you a lot of time and spell slots, though.

[Surrealistik]

If Scrying just lets you see what they're doing at the time, how does it let you know what tactics they use unless they just happen to be in an epic battle at the time? I don't see how helpful it could be to scry in on the Evil Overlord enjoying a bowl of oatmeal. :smallconfused:

Because it's the right thing to do and a tasty way to do it according to one Wilford Brimley.

[Midnight_v]

I find it more genuine if people who are anti divination actually just went "Not in MY games" then trying to interpret rules incorrectly to back up the unpleasant feel divination gives to them.
It clearly works, trying to screw player out of the spells efficacy just means divinaton doesn't work in your games but it totally works in the realms of D&D.


And most of the creatures in the MM 1-5 don't really warrant a Scry-and-Die when you can just send some flavor of death in their general direction. Scry-and-Die, at least by my understanding, is something that's used more for big time villains that would utterly trash the party if they tried the more traditional approach of kicking down the front door and fighting the bloke in his throne room
Okay well understand this. Some people are using it for that but some people are just using it for day to day operations.
For instance so all those monsters in the monster manual don't get surprise rounds. Also... so you know what you're going to fight in the next couple days or whatever. Preventing surprise attacks etc...
So there you go... you have a wizard diviner in your party.
His whole gimmick is that he's being "Batman" and better because he can totally see the future so he knows if he'll be fighting:
Killer Croc: Bat-reptile repellant spray
or
Clayface: Bat-clay-destablizing smoke bomb.

The spell pretty much implicitly spells out that it can totally do that.
Now you can get the wording down but basically:
How many fights will I have.
What type of creatures will I fight, in the first hostle encounter(and so on for each one)
Are these cretures More mentally tough, physcally reselient, fast.
..............................
You're a diviner so thats what you're supposed to be doing.
Controlling the random encounters, and being a makeshift scout.
You could totally try to do what you suggest to the boss monsters... but I find that as you say, Dm's will have a laundry list of reasons why this won't work... "mind raped victims" for example. Though you dont' see that type of protection in any published campaign that I know of.

[Infernalbargain]

I find it more genuine if people who are anti divination actually just went "Not in MY games" then trying to interpret rules incorrectly to back up the unpleasant feel divination gives to them.
It clearly works, trying to screw player out of the spells efficacy just means divinaton doesn't work in your games but it totally works in the realms of D&D.

Here's the issue: D&D is symmetric, anything the players can do, can be thrown right back at them. Why hasn't the BBEG scry-and-die'd on every person who takes a level of wizard? None-the-less a dozen? Surely the God of Magic knows a thing or two about who can cast spells.

[Amphetryon]

Take 10 is only applicable for routine, nonthreatening situations (barring class features that let you use it more liberally for certain skills). It's primarily used to handwave away things that by RAW require rolls but should not (Spot: seeing the person standing in front of you talking to you, climbing a set of stairs, etc.) You take 10 on use rope when you tie your boat to the dock. You take 10 on a perform check when playing a peice you've played many times before. You take 10 on knowledge to know routine details. Any time that a person is under pressure, especially taking an action that would carry a dire consequence for failure, by RAW, it's no longer possible.

In this case, an extraplaner force is threatening to suck away your wit, which is pretty much going to leave you helpless and likely dead, given your vocation. Yeah, that's going to prevent a take 10. That doesn't require a houserule. The rules on taking 10 specifically leave it up to the DM to decide what's threatening or distracting. It doesn't take much imagination to consider a great extraplanar force about to suck out your smarts and turn you into a helpless imbecile threatening.

Spot: see the guy sneaking up over yon hill with a blowgun, intent on causing your party the inconvenience of a Raise Dead. A positive result on your part puts said sneak in danger, while a negative one puts you or one of your party members in danger. Sounds like a penalty for failure, by the original metrics presented. Remember, the metric stated was that an action that is inherently threatening to the person using it is not eligible for Take 10. In the case of Spot, success inherently threatens one party, failure inherently threatens the other. Similar results occur with every other skill check I can think of off-hand.

[Rogue Shadows]

Here's the issue: D&D is symmetric, anything the players can do, can be thrown right back at them. Why hasn't the BBEG scry-and-die'd on every person who takes a level of wizard? None-the-less a dozen? Surely the God of Magic knows a thing or two about who can cast spells.

Because the more the BBEG uses scry-and-die, the more of a threat they become to the world at large, meaning the more people seek them harm, meaning they have to use scry-and-die more, meaning they threaten more of the world, meaning more people seek them harm...

...eventually the BBEG can't use scry-and-die anymore because he's either a) killed everyone everwhere, b) become so obsessed with scry-and-die that he no longer constitutes being a BBEG, just a random killer; c) he tried scry-and die on Pun-pun or some other being that was just too powerful for him, d) he got bored and went home.

[Midnight_v]

Here's the issue: D&D is symmetric, anything the players can do, can be thrown right back at them. Why hasn't the BBEG scry-and-die'd on every person who takes a level of wizard? None-the-less a dozen? Surely the God of Magic knows a thing or two about who can cast spells.

Well its not really an issue for me, as I personally think the "WELL I CAN GET YOU TOO!" is a pretty weak method of Dm'ing. So I tend to do better things than trying to arms race the pcs. Thats just me.
I've see it though, 1 player gets shocktropper, so the dm tries to send a shocktrooper to kill him. Not that there can't be those dudes running around, but its such obvious bad form as to not be worth considering.

However, a more satisfying answer to your question is. They likely totally do that. I mostly dm but I've played in games where we walk into ambushes, totally because they divined that we were coming. Thats fine.

Though when you look at this thread, and really read what the people who are explaining how divination supposed to work, most of them are talking about spell lists, and day to day planning.

NOW:

Why hasn't the BBEG scry-and-die'd on every person who takes a level of wizard?
Honestly, because there are too many people at hogwarts to get that done before the leaders of the school start searching and killing you.
Or in faerun Elminster and the 7 sisters come.
Killing every one who has a level of wizard going to anger the God of Magic who might totally tell his clerics someone trying to destabalise his entire worship base. Likely though you'll just get killed by the good guys for trying such an insane scheme. Its saturday morning cartoon laughable.
Cause D&D is symetric...

[Infernalbargain]

or e) people stop taking levels of wizard because they'll die.

[Rogue Shadows]

or e) people stop taking levels of wizard because they'll die.

So that leaves sorcerers, clerics, and druids as full casters in core alone, never mind if this is a setting with wu jen, shugenja, favored souls, shadowcasters...

[Infernalbargain]

Well its not really an issue for me, as I personally think the "WELL I CAN GET YOU TOO!" is a pretty weak method of Dm'ing. So I tend to do better things than trying to arms race the pcs. Thats just me.
I've see it though, 1 player gets shocktropper, so the dm tries to send a shocktrooper to kill him. Not that there can't be those dudes running around, but its such obvious bad form as to not be worth considering.

However, a more satisfying answer to your question is. They likely totally do that. I mostly dm but I've played in games where we walk into ambushes, totally because they divined that we were coming. Thats fine.

Though when you look at this thread, and really read what the people who are explaining how divination supposed to work, most of them are talking about spell lists, and day to day planning.

NOW:

Honestly, because there are too many people at hogwarts to get that done before the leaders of the school start searching and killing you.
Or in faerun Elminster and the 7 sisters come.
Killing every one who has a level of wizard going to anger the God of Magic who might totally tell his clerics someone trying to destabalise his entire worship base. Likely though you'll just get killed by the good guys for trying such an insane scheme. Its saturday morning cartoon laughable.
Cause D&D is symetric...

I could just as easily put at some still safe but rarer level such as level 5. Level 5 wizards are significantly rarer but none-the-less easy to dispatch. It's a much smaller hit to Mystra's base.

Now if these forces of good are out and willing to smite enemies as such, then why is there an BBEG to scry-and-die?

[Infernalbargain]

So that leaves sorcerers, clerics, and druids as full casters in core alone, never mind if this is a setting with wu jen, shugenja, favored souls, shadowcasters...

Oh. How. Cute.

[JaronK]

That's only true if the result is predestined. The game is full of random events. Ao himself, if somehow compelled to answer, doesn't know what the result on the die roll will be unless his fudges it himself.

You do realize gods know everything that will happen in their domains at least one week in advance, right? So yes, it's predestined. Yes, they really do know. Just make sure to ask the right god (if you're worried about being attacked, consider a god of battle or murder. If you want knowledge about what spells to prepare, consider Bocobb or similar. If you're trying the binary value CoP trick, consider asking a god of logic, who might find the whole thing intensely interesting).

JaronK

[Talya]

You do realize gods know everything that will happen in their domains at least one week in advance, right? So yes, it's predestined. Yes, they really do know. Just make sure to ask the right god (if you're worried about being attacked, consider a god of battle or murder. If you want knowledge about what spells to prepare, consider Bocobb or similar. If you're trying the binary value CoP trick, consider asking a god of logic, who might find the whole thing intensely interesting).

JaronK

They still don't know because it has not yet been written. The event is not yet decided. No matter what they pick, they might be wrong. At the time the event happens, it's a random roll. The answer to a die-roll dependant question is "indeterminate," "still to be decided," etc. Furthermore, the answer to the question can change the result. For instance, "Will the BBEG's Destructospell kill me?" The answer, as it stands now, might be "No." So suddenly you feel safe in marching up to the BBEG and challenging him. But perhaps the answer was no because you were not going to go see the BBEG before you received your answer, and therefore the spell was not going to be cast on you. Now that you're confronting him, that's a whole new ballgame. (So, the correct answer to the original question, as answered by that omniscient god, should have been, "Your fate is not yet decided.")

The Gods have even less ability to tell the future than the DM has. If the DM doesn't know the answer, they most certainly do not, since the DM is both more omniscient and omnipotent than any god in the system.

[Doug Lampert]

The fact that screwing it up renders you mildly retarded for a few weeks and incapable of casting spells probably qualifies as "threatening."

Climbing a cliff is an EXAMPLE in the rules of a usable take 10 situation, and if you miss the check you fall to your death, so that's at least as threatening.

But you can clearly take 10, it says so right in the core rulebooks.

The example continues with what happens if someone ELSE is threatening you, the example uses archers shooting at you IIRC, then you can't take 10.

Claiming that the consequences of failure prevent a take 10 goes against the RAW. The threat has to be something other than "you might fail the check" otherwise it would be a "take 1" rule because the only time you could use it would be when failure was completely impossible.

DougL

[Midnight_v]

I could just as easily put at some still safe but rarer level such as level 5. Level 5 wizards are significantly rarer but none-the-less easy to dispatch. It's a much smaller hit to Mystra's base.

Now if these forces of good are out and willing to smite enemies as such, then why is there an BBEG to scry-and-die?
Even at that it would be noticed, and someone would complain, to clergy etc.
The reason why no one has done that is because it doesn't work. Its simply just impractical. So you kill some dudes best friend apprentice whatever. It'll get noticed and you'll get dead. Or... you'll occasionally scry and die a level 5 wizard, but at that point you're just a serial killer. Though as a BBEG, that works...
However you're trying very hard to hash something to not work that clearly does, work.

So that leaves sorcerers, clerics, and druids as full casters in core alone, never mind if this is a setting with wu jen, shugenja, favored souls, shadowcasters
Exactly.
You either shoot too big and your theoretical villian gets slotted by people equiped to deal with it, OR you're he's not signifigant enough to really matter.
Thats why what you suggest doesn't work. Wizards arean't the only ones in the divination game. Not nearly. LOL

[Rogue Shadows]

Oh. How. Cute.

I'm just saying - a Big Bad Evil Guy who sets out to use scry and die against all threats, is going to be constantly making more enemies, which will abosrb more of his time as he searches for threats. He stops being the BBEG because whatever his BBEG Plan was, he no longer has time for it because he's spending all his time on scry-die.

Unless of course that was his plan, but then even assuming he kills every other wizard that could challenge him (including higher-level ones?), that still leaves other people still capable of threatening him, which means he keeps devoting all his time to scry and die. And all of this is assuming that a deity doesn't step in at some point and either kill him or put him in an interdimensional trashcan, as deities are want to do against such threats. And even if he succeeds in killing all, say, Archivists, then in the time he spent hunting them down, new Wizards will have come into being.

So he either stops being the campaign's BBEG and just becomes a random killer, or he bites off more than he can chew and is promptly defeated, or he gives up on scry-die.

[Amphetryon]

So he either stops being the campaign's BBEG and just becomes a random killer, or he bites off more than he can chew and is promptly defeated, or he gives up on scry-die.
Or he uses it reasonably as opposed to obsessively and exclusively, as a tool to keep his power instead of a method of his own downfall. It could happen.

[Rogue Shadows]

Or he uses it reasonably as opposed to obsessively and exclusively, as a tool to keep his power instead of a method of his own downfall. It could happen.

Yes, but then he runs the risk of not doing against the one guy (or party) he needed to do it against, leading to your downfall, which was exactly what you were trying to prevent in the first place.

[Midnight_v]

Or he uses it reasonably as opposed to obsessively and exclusively, as a tool to keep his power instead of a method of his own downfall. It could happen.

Well yeah. Thats how adventurer's use it too.

So basically we've reached the point we started from. Are there dudes running around using divinations to set up the battles they want? Totally.
Are they pcs doing that? Yep. Are there villians doing that? Yep.

Should the fact that one of your players discover divination to be useful, guarantee, that all enemy casters start divining on the party all at once? Nope. Should every group that they face from now on have a pet diviner on tap as a resource?
I loathe the idea that all of a sudden when a Pc learns a trick the world learns the trick too. Some people will, some people won't, some people have defenses against.
Somewhere out there right now is an ex-Ilitithid Hunter killing all kinds of dudes talking about "Didn't see THAT coming did you", that doesn't mean you need to use it to "check" your pc's.
let divination work. Judge moderately.

[Infernalbargain]

There's issues with predestination though: I ask Boccob "What is the first spell I will cast tomorrow?". Does the player have the free will necessary to cast some other spell?


Unless of course that was his plan, but then even assuming he kills every other wizard that could challenge him (including higher-level ones?), that still leaves other people still capable of threatening him, which means he keeps devoting all his time to scry and die. And all of this is assuming that a deity doesn't step in at some point and either kill him or put him in an interdimensional trashcan, as deities are want to do against such threats. And even if he succeeds in killing all, say, Archivists, then in the time he spent hunting them down, new Wizards will have come into being.

That's to say that there is only one guy doing it. Now if we had some large evil organization of wizards set on taking over the world, oh say the red wizards of thay, the task becomes a bit more manageable. Organized effort allows for attacking higher level targets. 4 level 13 wizards can likely beat a level 20 wizard due to action economy and just making him roll several saves or hitting him with rays; whichever would be more effective as they divined.

[Drachasor]

Because the more the BBEG uses scry-and-die, the more of a threat they become to the world at large, meaning the more people seek them harm, meaning they have to use scry-and-die more, meaning they threaten more of the world, meaning more people seek them harm...

...eventually the BBEG can't use scry-and-die anymore because he's either a) killed everyone everwhere, b) become so obsessed with scry-and-die that he no longer constitutes being a BBEG, just a random killer; c) he tried scry-and die on Pun-pun or some other being that was just too powerful for him, d) he got bored and went home.

BS.

CoP: Is anyone or group who is a remotely serious threat going to try to kill me in the next month? (If yes, follow up questions on whether it is a group or not, name of the group or leader, etc, etc).

He doesn't have to go and kill everyone, just the people trying to kill him. Oh, and people who thwart his plans more than...say twice (he's just THAT forgiving!).

This is actually a major problem with the overpowered nature of the magic system, honestly.

It's even worse for beings like Dragons. Something that's had major magic for a few hundred years should be almost impossible to kill. Shivering Touch? Sorry, he's been immune to that for longer than you've been alive. But he'll probably fake his death with a clone body he had animated and preserved (so it looks fresh). Then MDJ your ass (yeah, that real looking loot that holds up under scrying? Non-magical, all of it) and kill you. Every tactic you come up with he's had more than a decade to consider MULTIPLE contingency plans and implement them all. Because of the overpowered nature of magic, this is a very, very realistic goal because magic can do pretty much anything in D&D.

[Drachasor]

There's issues with predestination though: I ask Boccob "What is the first spell I will cast tomorrow?". Does the player have the free will necessary to cast some other spell?

It's safe to assume that the predicted future is only true if you do nothing you wouldn't have done otherwise.

Queue special magical item with the unique spell: "People Asking Entities in Other Planes About Me". Sure, you have to change what you are doing a dozen times a week (dang adventurers), but their data sucks.

[JaronK]

They still don't know because it has not yet been written. The event is not yet decided. No matter what they pick, they might be wrong. At the time the event happens, it's a random roll.

No, seriously, read the rules on deities. They do know, weeks in advance, what's going to happen and where. That's just what the rules say.

And if your DM ever tries to pull this nonsense on you, remember it, and then go ambush and kill his gods later. When he claims they would have known about it, point out that the gods are ignorant of all futures past a single random roll. Flip a coin to decide the moment of your attack, and even the gods of murder, probability, and battle won't realize you're about to randomly attack and murder them, despite their ability to know weeks in advance about such things. This DM has now established this fact.

Knee jerk DMing means you win, in the long run. Just use the facts he establishes (like that no one, regardless of RAW, can ever know the future like that) to destroy his big enemies.

Seriously though, I think this could make an awesome campaign world... one deity (perhaps an overdeity), pissed off that a Wizard keeps scry and dying every possible threat, shields just one party against divination. That's your party. Despite all the power of everyone else, no one can threaten him except you. And you can't tell anyone what you're up to or he might find out. Only you can defeat him. Good luck.

JaronK

[tyckspoon]

It's even worse for beings like Dragons. Something that's had major magic for a few hundred years should be almost impossible to kill. Shivering Touch? Sorry, he's been immune to that for longer than you've been alive. But he'll probably fake his death with a clone body he had animated and preserved (so it looks fresh). Then MDJ your ass (yeah, that real looking loot that holds up under scrying? Non-magical, all of it) and kill you. Every tactic you come up with he's had more than a decade to consider MULTIPLE contingency plans and implement them all. Because of the overpowered nature of magic, this is a very, very realistic goal because magic can do pretty much anything in D&D.

Mind, this kind of thing specifically for Dragons either takes the Epic ones to have enough caster levels, or they have to take class levels to advance their casting (which.. well, they should, because lazing around to just get older and more powerful is a good way to get killed by more enterprising beings.) Dragons on their own aren't really all that good at magic; even a 300-year old one (Mature Adult, usually Large or Huge, intimidating and powerful creatures by anybody's measure) only has 2nd or 3rd level spells at its disposal.

[Amphetryon]

Seriously though, I think this could make an awesome campaign world... one deity (perhaps an overdeity), pissed off that a Wizard keeps scry and dying every possible threat, shields just one party against divination. That's your party. Despite all the power of everyone else, no one can threaten him except you. And you can't tell anyone what you're up to or he might find out. Only you can defeat him. Good luck.

JaronKYOINK! I mean, um. . . mind if I borrow that idea? :smallbiggrin:

[Saph]

No, seriously, read the rules on deities. They do know, weeks in advance, what's going to happen and where. That's just what the rules say.

Then the rules on deities are self-contradictory, because the rules ALSO say that saving throws, attacks, etc. are done by d20 roll. So either you throw out the 99% of the game that assumes die rolls and free choice by the players, or you throw out that section of the rules on deities.

In reality, all this means is that the guy who wrote that section of the deities rules didn't think through what he was saying.


And if your DM ever tries to pull this nonsense on you remember it, and then go ambush and kill his gods later. When he claims they would have known about it, point out that the gods are ignorant of all futures past a single random roll. Flip a coin to decide the moment of your attack, and even the gods of murder, probability, and battle won't realize you're about to randomly attack and murder them, despite their ability to know weeks in advance about such things. This DM has now established this fact.

Knee jerk DMing means you win, in the long run. Just use the facts he establishes (like that no one, regardless of RAW, can ever know the future like that) to destroy his big enemies.

This is terrible advice, and taking an attitude like this is far more likely to get you kicked from the group than it is to make you "win".

[Amphetryon]

Then the rules on deities are self-contradictory, because the rules ALSO say that saving throws, attacks, etc. are done by d20 roll. So either you throw out the 99% of the game that assumes die rolls and free choice by the players, or you throw out that section of the rules on deities.

In reality, all this means is that the guy who wrote that section of the deities rules didn't think through what he was saying.

That reads, to me, like you're saying the dice aren't representing foreknown events that only those of Divine Rank 0 (or better) had any information on. Because, to me, the fact that the dice represent the outcome of events IN NO WAY precludes the gods of the D&D multiverse from knowing the outcome before the dice are cast. Heck, it doesn't even preclude their meddling in said outcome.

[Drachasor]

Mind, this kind of thing specifically for Dragons either takes the Epic ones to have enough caster levels, or they have to take class levels to advance their casting (which.. well, they should, because lazing around to just get older and more powerful is a good way to get killed by more enterprising beings.) Dragons on their own aren't really all that good at magic; even a 300-year old one (Mature Adult, usually Large or Huge, intimidating and powerful creatures by anybody's measure) only has 2nd or 3rd level spells at its disposal.

Well, I was talking about the older ones (whom you can still face in a non-epic game), but even others could easily get some help with spells or find the right magical items. Even being able to cast level 1 spells enables them to use any arcane magical item.

[JaronK]

Then the rules on deities are self-contradictory, because the rules ALSO say that saving throws, attacks, etc. are done by d20 roll. So either you throw out the 99% of the game that assumes die rolls and free choice by the players, or you throw out that section of the rules on deities.

It doesn't say they don't know past a single roll.


This is terrible advice, and taking an attitude like this is far more likely to get you kicked from the group than it is to make you "win".

Honestly, I tend to want to leave immediately if the DMs response to a perfectly valid thing is "actually, the gods don't know a darn thing when that would benefit you, but when it gets in your way the gods totally know everything." Which is probably where that was headed. I like verisimilitude, and I hate railroading, and claiming that the gods who are supposed to know weeks in advance are foiled by simply making a single action that requires a dice roll smacks of terrible railroading. Now, if he wants to actually establish that in world no divinations can see past any random chance fine... but I expect to be able to use that fact in my planning. I'll be foiling all divinations that way. And frankly, I see nothing wrong with that... the DM has established this is how the world works, so why shouldn't I use that fact? Suddenly a coin you can flip is now the same as Mind Blank! If he doesn't allow that, this is an immature DM who arbitrarily changes the very rules of world at a whim to thwart the players instead of simply saying honestly "hmm, that would break my campaign so we can't do that. I'm going to have to remove Contact Other Plane from the game world to avoid that abuse." That's a mature DM who's being consistent and honest.

JaronK

[tyckspoon]

Then the rules on deities are self-contradictory, because the rules ALSO say that saving throws, attacks, etc. are done by d20 roll. So either you throw out the 99% of the game that assumes die rolls and free choice by the players, or you throw out that section of the rules on deities.


Is there something stopping you from just throwing a die when they ask the question and using that result to give the answer? It's not all that different from the 'pre-roll a bunch of results and just go down the list using the numbers' advice people sometimes get when they ask how they can speed up gameplay.

[Drachasor]

Honestly, I tend to want to leave immediately if the DMs response to a perfectly valid thing is "actually, the gods don't know a darn thing when that would benefit you, but when it gets in your way the gods totally know everything." Which is probably where that was headed. I like verisimilitude, and I hate railroading, and claiming that the gods who are supposed to know weeks in advance are foiled by simply making a single action that requires a dice roll smacks of terrible railroading. Now, if he wants to actually establish that in world no divinations can see past any random chance fine... but I expect to be able to use that fact in my planning. I'll be foiling all divinations that way. And frankly, I see nothing wrong with that... the DM has established this is how the world works, so why shouldn't I use that fact? Suddenly a coin you can flip is now the same as Mind Blank! If he doesn't allow that, this is an immature DM who arbitrarily changes the very rules of world at a whim to thwart the players instead of simply saying honestly "hmm, that would break my campaign so we can't do that. I'm going to have to remove Contact Other Plane from the game world to avoid that abuse." That's a mature DM who's being consistent and honest.

I think there's some room between banning the spell and limiting its effects without railroading.

[Person_Man]

I would also add various forms of stealth magic to your list: Invisibility, Non-Detection, Fly, Dimension Door, etc. Even if you don't use strait Divination magic, you can still just fly around in a mostly undetectable fashion, see what monsters are about, poison some food, cast Explosive Runes and similar trap spells, Teleport yourself to Ye Olde Magic Shope and Teleport back with the perfect scroll(s), and then attack them (or escape unnoticed) when you feel ready to do so.

Regardless of the limitations what Divination and the above magic might be, I think the larger point is clear. Casters have a variety of resources to research their enemies and change all of their spells to defeat them, limited only by the logistics of doing so and the unpredictability of their enemy/fate/DM. Non-casters (with some sneaky exceptions) generally must go door to door in the enemy's dungeon/castle/lair/etc and react to danger as it presents itself, and cannot efficiently change their class abilities to fight that specific enemy.

[Saph]

Is there something stopping you from just throwing a die when they ask the question and using that result to give the answer?

Nothing - but it's not following RAW either, which is what JaronK and the others are quoting. According to RAW you're supposed to roll the dice when you take the action.

And as soon as you bring free will into the equation you get an instant paradox - the player asks "Will I do X in the next 10 seconds?" with the intention of doing the opposite.


Honestly, I tend to want to leave immediately if the DMs response to a perfectly valid thing is "actually, the gods don't know a darn thing when that would benefit you, but when it gets in your way the gods totally know everything." Which is probably where that was headed. I like verisimilitude, and I hate railroading, and claiming that the gods who are supposed to know weeks in advance are foiled by simply making a single action that requires a dice roll smacks of terrible railroading.

You really haven't thought this through.

If I ran the game your way, I'd have to remove all choice from your character. After all, the deities know what's going to happen in the future, and as the DM I'm supposed to know what the deities do, therefore I can't let you actually take any actions other than what the deities are aware is going to happen.

The reason I don't let players pull off predestination shenanigans is because I DON'T like railroading. If I wanted a railroaded game, I'd follow your advice.

[Drachasor]

Nothing - but it's not following RAW either, which is what JaronK and the others are quoting. According to RAW you're supposed to roll the dice when you take the action.

And as soon as you bring free will into the equation you get an instant paradox - the player asks "Will I do X in the next 10 seconds?" with the intention of doing the opposite.

Answer: Failing At violating causality. (special multi-word answer).

Frankly, RAW doesn't saw deities know every little detail.

Demigods have a limited ability to sense events involving their portfolios. They automatically sense any event that involves one thousand or more people. The ability is limited to the present. Lesser deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios and affects five hundred or more people. Intermediate deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios, regardless of the number of people involved. In addition, their senses extend one week into the past for every divine rank they have. Greater deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios, regardless of the number of people involved. In addition, their senses extend one week into the past and one week into the future for every divine rank they have. When a deity senses an event, it merely knows that the event is occurring and where it is. The deity receives no sensory information about the event. Once a deity notices an event, it can use its remote sensing power to perceive the event.

That's automatic. Deities, even greater ones, have precious few "remote sensing" slots to toss around at the request of every silly mortal asking for a heads-up on something. That's assume Ao's cousin or just a random more powerful god isn't blocking things.

[Quietus]

On the subject of "The Gods know because they know everything!" :


Greater deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios, regardless of the number of people involved. In addition, their senses extend one week into the past and one week into the future for every divine rank they have. When a deity senses an event, it merely knows that the event is occurring and where it is.

"Will the BBEG cast slay living" : Yes.
"Will I pass the save" : Unknown

This is perfectly valid. The deities may know that an event will occur (which can change based on the answer given, or any number of other things that can happen along the way), but they don't necessarily know the outcome thereof. Along these lines, if a player insists on abusing CoP this way, I intend to always give them the unfavorable answer. They'll always fail their saves, miss their attacks, and their opponents will be unstoppable machines. Let the players sort the rest out for themselves, and change their future.

[Drachasor]

On the subject of "The Gods know because they know everything!" :



"Will the BBEG cast slay living" : Yes.
"Will I pass the save" : Unknown

This is perfectly valid. The deities may know that an event will occur (which can change based on the answer given, or any number of other things that can happen along the way), but they don't necessarily know the outcome thereof. Along these lines, if a player insists on abusing CoP this way, I intend to always give them the unfavorable answer. They'll always fail their saves, miss their attacks, and their opponents will be unstoppable machines. Let the players sort the rest out for themselves, and change their future.

Ostensibly the rules seem to indicate a deity may directly view what is going on. However, this can be stopped by another deity of equal or higher rank. Fairly safe to assume that's happening all the time.

[Midnight_v]

I think there's some room between banning the spell and limiting its effects without railroading.
No. There really isn't.
Either I can ask and get accurate/reliable answer to my questions through mechanical means or not.

The suck thing is that people are trying to limit its effects, without actually admiting it.
It totally doest let you do all that crazy stuff by the raw. If you say things like:


The reason I don't let players pull off predestination shenanigans is because
because you've established house rules contrary to what the game says. Thats really perfectly okay, as long as you don't start suddenly preventing divination from working, and the players though that divination would work like it says in the book.

So you either get divination that is hella-powerful or doesnt' work. If it doesn't work in your game world congrats you've created the spell version of toughness the feat that people don't take.


"Will the BBEG cast slay living" : Yes.
"Will I pass the save" : Unknown
"Will I be alive 1 hour after he casts slay living"


Along these lines, if a player insists on abusing CoP this way, I intend to always give them the unfavorable answer. They'll always fail their saves, miss their attacks, and their opponents will be unstoppable machines. Let the players sort the rest out for themselves, and change their future Which is... again an attitude that I find personally to be pretty immature. I think it'd be much more reasonable to be honest and say "Divination of that kind doesn't work in my campaign world."
Or "I can't deal with that use of divination" or, I find divination broke, lets not use it.

My question is... to all the people saying "I wouldn't allow that!" or any variation of "Divination: No".
What do you think a diviner is supposed to be DOING exactly?
Cause he says it abusive, the other says its shennanigans. . .

What exactly is CoP and Commune actually FOR, in your game worlds?
When someone sits down and makes a specialist diviner... what do you THINK that roles supposed to be?

It's really boggles me because, its like you don't get why the game is like that conceptually, but moreso, can't seem to accept that these things actually work.


Ostensibly the rules seem to indicate a deity may directly view what is going on. However, this can be stopped by another deity of equal or higher rank. Fairly safe to assume that's happening all the time.
Which a fancy way of saying "I ban divination of this type"

[Drachasor]

Which a fancy way of saying "I ban divination of this type"

No. But it does mean you aren't going to get specific answers about major events. You'll actually have to play the dang game to find those out. CoP and similar spells are still quite useful for finding out other kinds of information. There's really tons of stuff you can find out that's not directly about killing an NPC or what encounters you'll be facing that day.

Have a little imagination.

[Talya]

Either I can ask and get accurate/reliable answer to my questions through mechanical means or not.


You cannot. That's RAW. The spell is explicitly NOT reliable. You can get answers. Whether the answers are reliable or not is decided by a roll of the die. Whether the answers are USEFUL or not is decided by what the planar being you contact actually is able to ascertain.

You may be able to use Gather Information to collect a lot of data from a town full of people. But if none of them know ANYTHING about what you want to find information on, none of that data will be useful to you.

[Midnight_v]

No. But it does mean you aren't going to get specific answers about major events. You'll actually have to play the dang game to find those out. CoP and similar spells are still quite useful for finding out other kinds of information. There's really tons of stuff you can find out that's not directly about killing an NPC or what encounters you'll be facing that day.

Have a little imagination.

No. I have a LOT of imagination. Though I also have common sense, you saying: You may not use divination for combat purposes is just as crappy if you say "You may not use combat illusions" or "You may not use combat Enchantment". In my opinion.

Still lets drop that last part for a sec, and focus on this.


CoP and similar spells are still quite useful for finding out other kinds of information. There's really tons of stuff you can find out that's not directly about killing an NPC or what encounters you'll be facing that day.
Okay. I find that to be saying you can find out things but not things relevant to what you really want to know. So. . .
What do you think a diviner wizard is supposed to do exactly. Give me some examples of what you're talking about since you say there are tons.
I'm genuinely curious here because it might help me see where you're coming from.


You cannot. That's RAW. The spell is explicitly NOT reliable. You can get answers. Except that it totally is reliable enough to use. Which is why this thread exists at all. Further, you missed the part where you I said through mechanical means. The spell gete more or less reliable depending on what you do. Still...
Talya, I read you're arguments on the last page. I didn't respond to them cause I find that you're whole "Take 10" thing to be so very much in err, that I couldn't be bothered to argue it with you. Mostly cause you can take 10 climbing a cliff face etc... I mean we're just on totally different pages. So meh.

[turkishproverb]

One of the tactics my players use is casting Contact Other Plane to find stuff quickly, bypassing Locate X. Since the spell can give a "one-word answer", they ask the following questions.
1. How many feet is my target far from me?
2. How many degrees right do I have to turn to face my target?
3. How many degrees up (or down) do I have to turn to face my target?

Pinpoint.

The english wording might need refining, we do it in our mother tongue and it sounds better. :smalltongue:

They usually use their remaining questions to inquire about the strengths of their foe, like "how many people defend him?", "are there arcane casters?", "what schools do they specialize in?", "what is the (first word of the) signature ability of my target?" and so on.

Offhand, I know Question 2 a good DM can handle easy if they're using a round world: Any.

[JaronK]

I think there's some room between banning the spell and limiting its effects without railroading.

You could reasonable nerf the spell too if you wanted. For example, you could limit it to a set series of answers, or give it a greater cost, or something. But claiming "even the gods don't know the future past a single roll" is an arbitrary decision, poorly thought out, to counter one spell. And it has far reaching effects that the DM clearly hasn't considered.

And no, you don't have to remove free will. In fact, since the gods knew in advance more than the players or DM did, I've actually DM'd divinations by getting to the point in time they asked about and saying "okay, the answer you got back then was X, how did that help you prepare for this?" This allowed the players to have information gained that way, and it was actually a lot of fun working out what was said so as to give this particular information and then let them use it. It requires some maturity from players but with a little work can be quite handy.

This solves causality issues as well, since we can work out what the wording was after knowing the action and screw with things a little. For example, if the player asked if he was going to go first to town A or town B, and was planning to go to the opposite of the answer, we can simply have him go to the appropriate town, and then give a cryptic enough answer that he could have gotten confused. And usually, I can actually get the players to come up with the answer that might have got them there.

And please note that I didn't ask for extreme details when demonstrating this trick. I was working within RAW:

" Greater deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios, regardless of the number of people involved. In addition, their senses extend one week into the past and one week into the future for every divine rank they have. When a deity senses an event, it merely knows that the event is occurring and where it is. The deity receives no sensory information about the event. Once a deity notices an event, it can use its remote sensing power to perceive the event."

The examples I gave were asking when an attack would happen and what sort of enemy it might be, and asked no more than one week in the future. It was not "will X roll succeed" it was finding out if, for example, a magic user with spell resistance would attack me on Thursday. This is well within "knows that the event is occurring and where it is" so long as it's in the right portfolio (a god of travel might be appropriate if I'm traveling during this event, or a god of magic could be handy too. So might a god of battle).

JaronK

[Drakevarg]

The examples I gave were asking when an attack would happen and what sort of enemy it might be, and asked no more than one week in the future. It was not "will X roll succeed" it was finding out if, for example, a magic user with spell resistance would attack me on Thursday. This is well within "knows that the event is occurring and where it is" so long as it's in the right portfolio (a god of travel might be appropriate if I'm traveling during this event, or a god of magic could be handy too. So might a god of battle

On the other hand, "Maybe" would still be a viable, true answer.

Consider the idea that DnD may not be deterministic, but the gods know what will happen anyway. These are not contradictory options, surprisingly. The god could simply know every possible way that it could go down and plan for each contingency.

When some diviner asks them a general question about "Will X happen?", the god's answer would be "Yes... if X, X and X happen." But since they can only answer with one word, it comes out as "Maybe." or more bafflingly "Sometimes."

[Drachasor]

Okay. I find that to be saying you can find out things but not things relevant to what you really want to know. So. . .
What do you think a diviner wizard is supposed to do exactly. Give me some examples of what you're talking about since you say there are tons.
I'm genuinely curious here because it might help me see where you're coming from.

Ok, per the rules, another deity can block access to anyone seeing the event. So you could learn where it is. Perhaps some very rough details, but nothing precise. That's about it.

However, let's say you need to find some ancient artifact. You can use CoP to find out where someone is who knows a lot about it. You could use CoP to potentially even find out where the artifact is, roughly, though you probably want to track that other guy down too. You could use CoP to get an idea of what allies you might be able to gain for a particular battle/war in the future.

I could go on. There are tons of things it would still be good for.


Except that it totally is reliable enough to use. Which is why this thread exists at all. Further, you missed the part where you I said through mechanical means. The spell gete more or less reliable depending on what you do. Still...

No, by RAW the DM can declare a question simply can't be answered. The d100 table is for questions which CAN be answered. A rival deity can block access to an event, and it is safe to assume deities are doing that to each other all the time. That means deities will tend not to have much more information than a hazy idea of what is going on there and that it is important.


And please note that I didn't ask for extreme details when demonstrating this trick. I was working within RAW:

" Greater deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios, regardless of the number of people involved. In addition, their senses extend one week into the past and one week into the future for every divine rank they have. When a deity senses an event, it merely knows that the event is occurring and where it is. The deity receives no sensory information about the event. Once a deity notices an event, it can use its remote sensing power to perceive the event."

And you handily ignore the limits on remote sensing. In particular other deities can STOP IT. Also, CoP doesn't guarantee true answers to anything. Again, you only roll on the table if an answer is available. The DM is told explicitly in the spell that it is ok for him to decide that an answer can't be gained.

[turkishproverb]

I think there's some room between banning the spell and limiting its effects without railroading.

I agree. I once had a party running under me try the "divine everything the next day" trick. And, just to teach them yet another mistake, I let them. And the first group of monsters was...as described. The second? A bit different, but not really (Gotta be careful with wording). After that? Much different, because the other groups hadn't reported back so they came forward with much greater force.

Events can change if you scry. You're screwing with destiny, by the gods logic, and thus changing things from what they knew.

Eventually, they got a chance to ask they deity (well, one of the deities underlings) why things hadn't gone exactly as told "You screwed it up!"


On the subject of "The Gods know because they know everything!" :



"Will the BBEG cast slay living" : Yes.
"Will I pass the save" : Unknown

This is perfectly valid. The deities may know that an event will occur (which can change based on the answer given, or any number of other things that can happen along the way), but they don't necessarily know the outcome thereof. Along these lines, if a player insists on abusing CoP this way, I intend to always give them the unfavorable answer. They'll always fail their saves, miss their attacks, and their opponents will be unstoppable machines. Let the players sort the rest out for themselves, and change their future.

Well put. Especially since the wording of the first question is "Will he cast slay living" not "Will he cast slay living on me"



On the other hand, "Maybe" would still be a viable, true answer.

Consider the idea that DnD may not be deterministic, but the gods know what will happen anyway. These are not contradictory options, surprisingly. The god could simply know every possible way that it could go down and plan for each contingency.

When some diviner asks them a general question about "Will X happen?", the god's answer would be "Yes... if X, X and X happen." But since they can only answer with one word, it comes out as "Maybe." or more bafflingly "Sometimes."

Oh, I like this.

[askandarion]

Question: is "event" defined in RAW anywhere? Or what constitutes an "event" related to a portfolio?

My opinion is that answers such as "Maybe", "Unknown", "Possible", etc. are purposefully given as options for the DM when questions are asked that focus on the random die roll of the game. Rolling the result when the question is asked is a good idea, but problematic because then both sides would have to spend time figuring out what buffs would be up, what would have been planned for, and other factors- doesn't that just end up turning the game into a sort of free-form storytelling system at that point?

[Drachasor]

Question: is "event" defined in RAW anywhere? Or what constitutes an "event" related to a portfolio?

In laymen's terms, an event in a single moment in time where two or more things interact with each other.


My opinion is that answers such as "Maybe", "Unknown", "Possible", etc. are purposefully given as options for the DM when questions are asked that focus on the random die roll of the game. Rolling the result when the question is asked is a good idea, but problematic because then both sides would have to spend time figuring out what buffs would be up, what would have been planned for, and other factors- doesn't that just end up turning the game into a sort of free-form storytelling system at that point?

Well, like I already said, the rules cover people not knowing. A Deity can't know the future around an event if another Deity of equal or greater rank blocks it. Well, if your portfolio is "fuzzy bunnies" (yeah, you're a god now!), then there's another god out there with "killing fuzzy bunnies" as theirs (what a jerk!). It is safe to assume you both block each other. If there is another deity blocking, then you can know OF the event and some fuzzy details, but you won't know specifics. That's RAW, which many people are ignoring.

[Midnight_v]

However, let's say you need to find some ancient artifact. You can use CoP to find out where someone is who knows a lot about it. You could use CoP to potentially even find out where the artifact is, roughly, though you probably want to track that other guy down too. You could use CoP to get an idea of what allies you might be able to gain for a particular battle/war in the future.

I could go on. There are tons of things it would still be good for
So... you'll allow divination to obviate skill checks. I see.
Okay, here's the wonky thing to me. I can find out where somone is who knows about an ancient artifact. If a person can be defined as being "Found" you can still totally gank them.
Where is this person. "Found" are they awake? No. Are they alone No. How many waking companions are there with them. 2. etc...

Which my frustrations comes from the silliness of trying to stop these things that work raw.
... Actually... I don't mind, if you houserule it to work that way. I just discovered the orignal thread, that all this stemmed from. The first thing i thought when I read "V's" thing was "a wizard could just divine, his opponents weaknesses". Then next thing I thought was "can of worms".
So you know. Divination clearly works and has combat aplications of helping to prepare spells etc.
The only thing is some people are going to houserule/nerf it to not do so.
Which is fine, but it's very annoying that they're trying to use that as a basis to say "Wizards have THIS weakness" ...a weakness they don't have really.
Still Drachsor, it occurs to me that you're not saying "it doesn't work that way"
and more are saying "It shouldn't be allowed to be used that way" When I look at it like that, you and I have no argument.
You can totally do whatever you think is best for your homegame.
Divination totally can be used to eliminate the Prepared the wrong spell bit, there are other options too, but having a Scry-day is certainly the most notorious.



If there is another deity blocking, then you can know OF the event and some fuzzy details, but you won't know specifics. That's RAW, which many people are ignoring.
That's an assumption. You're now trying to stretch a rule to say "Deities Block each other ALL the time" theres no basis for that anywhere...
So basically, while it CAN happen, there's no reason why it would. All gods blocking the future at all times is nonsense.

[faceroll]

- Times (for doing something, for when you'll be attacked, etc.)
- Strongest spell a target can cast
- Best spells for you to prepare in any given slot
- Entities that threaten you
- Any dangerous magic items you need to be aware of

What if the answers to those questions have more than one word?


Misdirection, Mind Blank, Nondetection, Obscure Object, Detect Scrying, Private Sanctum, False Vision, Sequester...

Just as an example, I have a villain in my setting that has a healthy supply of mindraped minions who could easily cast these for him on a daily basis so he doesn't even need to waste spells doing so.

Yeah, put some of those on your allies, leave some off. Let the wizard over plan for undead, then WHAM, swarms of incorporeal demons.


Not unless you eliminate dice and players.

As long as the players are free to make decisions and roll dice, then the DM (and thus the campaign deities) can't predict what the PCs are going to do in the next six seconds, much less the next week.

Have the players outline in GREAT detail what actions they will be taking after "scryday". Should any of their actions deviate from their plan, well damn, they just screwed up the causality and their divinations were for naught.

[Drachasor]

So... you'll allow divination to obviate skill checks. I see.

What skill checks are being obviated?


Okay, here's the wonky thing to me. I can find out where somone is who knows about an ancient artifact. If a person can be defined as being "Found" you can still totally gank them.
Where is this person. "Found" are they awake? No. Are they alone No. How many waking companions are there with them. 2. etc...

Congrats, you just killed a friendly old man who lived out in the middle of nowhere.


Which my frustrations comes from the silliness of trying to stop these things that work raw.

They in fact shouldn't work RAW if the DM isn't an idiot. Rival gods will stop sight into the future.


Still Drachsor, it occurs to me that you're not saying "it doesn't work that way"

I'VE SAID THAT ABOUT 3 TIMES ON THIS PAGE. IT DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY. I've said why it doesn't work that way. I shall do so again.

Remote Sensing is the only way a Deity can get any exact details about the future, and only about portfolio-related events. It can be blocked by any deity of equal or greater power. There's no reason why an opposed deity wouldn't block it for anything important.


That's an assumption. You're now trying to stretch a rule to say "Deities Block each other ALL the time" theres no basis for that anywhere...
So basically, while it CAN happen, there's no reason why it would. All gods blocking the future at all times is nonsense.

They CAN do it. It would be SMART to do it. They are of above average intelligence and wisdom, so they do it. Why do you assume rival deities are idiots? Any important event is going to be blocked for this reason. It makes far less sense for it not to be. Are you playing a game where only the player is allowed to be intelligent? Well, if you want to just fight enemies that are morons, I guess the DM can allow it, but I wouldn't even pretend that makes any sort of sense.

[Zale]

They in fact shouldn't work RAW if the DM isn't an idiot. Rival gods will stop sight into the future.

Remote Sensing is the only way a Deity can get any exact details about the future, and only about portfolio-related events. It can be blocked by any deity of equal or greater power. There's no reason why an opposed deity wouldn't block it for anything important.



Now COP is utterly useless. :smallconfused:

All you would ever get is, 404 Deity Not Found.

[turkishproverb]

Oh yes, because the only thing it was ever remotely useful for was telling the future. :smalltongue:

[faceroll]

Now COP is utterly useless. :smallconfused:

All you would ever get is, 404 Deity Not Found.

I don't understand the attitude that rules interpretations that leave muggles even worse off are RAW, yet if magic doesn't work due to RAW, clearly the RAW is wrong.

[JaronK]

I don't understand the attitude that rules interpretations that leave muggles even worse off are RAW, yet if magic doesn't work due to RAW, clearly the RAW is wrong.

In this case, it's clearly claiming that the spell simply never works, which is wrong. Also silly, because you could simply ask more powerful gods so the lesser ones can't stop you. It has nothing to do with "muggles."

JaronK

[Doug Lampert]

Offhand, I know Question 2 a good DM can handle easy if they're using a round world: Any.

If true then the target is on a direct line connecting me and the center of the world. Otherwise there is only one angle I can turn to be facing him, two if you assume lines bend to go along the surface of the world, but still only two "straight" lines even in a curved geometry.

[Drachasor]

Now COP is utterly useless. :smallconfused:

All you would ever get is, 404 Deity Not Found.

Major events would certainly be blocked, assuming non-idiot deities. There are past events, minor present events, and minor future events that would be available to ask about. That's actually a crap-ton of information that would be difficult or impossible to acquire otherwise.


In this case, it's clearly claiming that the spell simply never works, which is wrong. Also silly, because you could simply ask more powerful gods so the lesser ones can't stop you. It has nothing to do with "muggles."

Read the rules. A god can be stopped by another god of equal power. You'll be hard-pressed to find a significant event that is portfolio related where there is conflict, and there isn't another god of equal power who wants things to go the other way.

[Eldariel]

What if the answers to those questions have more than one word?

You'll get the best one-word answer. If desired, for e.g. spell selection, you can designate one-word names for spells with more than one word (or something unambiguous like the "last word in" or whatever, depending on the level and slot). Changes from situation to situation but generally you can formulate a question that gets an unambiguous answer.

[Cerlis]

so basically saying a wizard can break the game with divination is like saying a Bard can break the game....if the DM happens to like scenarios where you chalenge the Devil to a violin contest

[turkishproverb]

If true then the target is on a direct line connecting me and the center of the world. Otherwise there is only one angle I can turn to be facing him, two if you assume lines bend to go along the surface of the world, but still only two "straight" lines even in a curved geometry.

Except if you need to turn to be looking in the same direction. If "face him" means "combat him" then it doesn't matter what direction you go from, IE ANY.


In this case, it's clearly claiming that the spell simply never works, which is wrong. Also silly, because you could simply ask more powerful gods so the lesser ones can't stop you. It has nothing to do with "muggles."

JaronK

It might if that were the claim, though even then it would be RAW. But the fact is Future detection is NOT the only use for that spell, and to act otherwise is to be disingenuous or not thoughtful as to the spell.


so basically saying a wizard can break the game with divination is like saying a Bard can break the game....if the DM happens to like scenarios where you chalenge the Devil to a violin contest

Only if the Devil is not only in a bind but also way behind and willing to make a deal. :smallwink:

[kabreras]

It's funny how you all battle about RAW.
If RAW was the answer to everything that can happend in a game it would be a video game, not a game where the DM is also a human.

For the question "will i kill XX if i cast slay living on him ?"
As DM i would just throw the save dice in secret and considere this result as the save for if he cast it and give my answer according to this save.


If as a DM you cant handle stuff like this with improvisation you are not worth more than a simple computer witch is not what the game is about.

[Zale]

Oh yes, because the only thing it was ever remotely useful for was telling the future. :smalltongue:

If god can (And do) constantly block it, then what can you do with it? I'm not talking about just the future, I mean at all.


I don't understand the attitude that rules interpretations that leave muggles even worse off are RAW, yet if magic doesn't work due to RAW, clearly the RAW is wrong.

No. I'm saying that if two gods go through the effort of blocking each other out in such a way, then any attempts to use CoP at all would fail.


Major events would certainly be blocked, assuming non-idiot deities. There are past events, minor present events, and minor future events that would be available to ask about. That's actually a crap-ton of information that would be difficult or impossible to acquire otherwise.


Ah..

So they wouldn't block it constantly.

My point is invalid then. Carry on.

[NNescio]

The fact that screwing it up renders you mildly retarded for a few weeks and incapable of casting spells probably qualifies as "threatening."

That fact that screwing up a Balance check when walking a tightrope over a deep chasm renders you mildly inconvenienced as your soul is temporarily(hopefully) separated from your body qualifies more as 'threatening', by your standard.

[Drakevarg]

That fact that screwing up a Balance check when walking a tightrope over a deep chasm renders you mildly inconvenienced as your soul is temporarily(hopefully) separated from your body qualifies more as 'threatening', by your standard.

I'm not entirely sure what you just said, but it comes across as you finding it unreasonable that someone would be unable to Take 10 on such a Balance Check.

[Midnight_v]

What you're advocating is just made up fiat, to keep people from doing what the rules allow.
If you want Dieties to make divinations NOT work so be it, but you're making that up. It isn't a default assumption of any setting.


It would be SMART to do it. They are of above average intelligence and wisdom, so they do it.
Thats pretty much nonsense. You're making them do it. I'm sure you don't get it but the natural mental leap you're making there is the problem.
If you play that then every time you face a vrock, it will at all times 100% of the time have mirror image up.
Balors totally fight by blasphemy juggle, and/come with a contingent of dominated foes. all the time. At will powers become just seriously abused.


Oh and...

What skill checks are being obviated? gather information and Survival "i.e. track"

I spoilerd most of my argument because I'm sick of Drachsors.
While writing I got to this point...


Read the rules. A god can be stopped by another god of equal power. You'll be hard-pressed to find a significant event that is portfolio related where there is conflict, and there isn't another god of equal power who wants things to go the other way.
Also... there are going to be gods that can do it and sometimes one god will trump another and you'll get what you need depending on who you ask.

So let me end this now. Boccob is the Greater God of knowledge. NO ONE OPPOSES HIM, save Tharizdun. Who is an intermidiate god.
Its be awesome if you conceded your argument now.

I know your unlikely to do so cause you're so wrapped up in defending it cause you think you've got something I don't think you do.
So I checked Ebberon too.... They don't seem to have greater and lesser dieties there. So no ones blocking anything. . . if you want to get princy about it. The dark six oppose the sovereign and NOTHING OPPOSES THE SILVER FLAME in any direct fashion.
Krynn: Gilean acts as mediator between good and evil, a greater diety of knowledge that no one opposes.
So the only place with the warring God's block each others powers even potentially is in faerun.
Even then you're argument that "They can, so they do" is weak. Really weak. Further in faerun there's Ao, so you know divination may just work because he wants it to.

Why don't the Gods of faerun block all their portfolios and enimies from divination? Ao says not to.

Why does Ao do this? Cause divination isn't differntly written in faerun, he must want it to work.
See we can all make terribly irrational mental leaps.

[Drakevarg]

Also... there are going to be gods that can do it and sometimes one god will trump another and you'll get what you need depending on who you ask.

So let me end this now. Boccob is the Greater God of knowledge. NO ONE OPPOSES HIM, save Tharizdun. Who is an intermidiate god.
Its be awesome if you conceded your argument now.


You also have to consider that since at this point you're asking specific entities instead of ringing up anyone in a given planar area code, the answers are subject to the whims of the particular diety.


Once the Outer Planes are reached, the power of the deity contacted determines the effects. (Random results obtained from the table are subject to DM changes, the personalities of the individual dieties, and so on.)

So congratulations, you've contacted Boccob and no one can stop him from seeing something he wants to see. What's stopping him from simply answering "Unimportant" to every question you ask because you're a pathetic mortal and he doesn't feel like bothering with your calls?

[Drachasor]

What you're advocating is just made up fiat, to keep people from doing what the rules allow.
If you want Dieties to make divinations NOT work so be it, but you're making that up. It isn't a default assumption of any setting.

It's a default assumption that equally powerful deities can block each other. I'd say it is a default assumption that they aren't stupid, given their intelligence and wisdom scores. So yeah, it IS a default assumption that they'd act in a remotely intelligent manner.

It's ALSO a default assumption that you just can't get the answer to some questions. What questions? DM's prerogative. That's written into the dang spell even.


Thats pretty much nonsense. You're making them do it. I'm sure you don't get it but the natural mental leap you're making there is the problem.
If you play that then every time you face a vrock, it will at all times 100% of the time have mirror image up.
Balors totally fight by blasphemy juggle, and/come with a contingent of dominated foes. all the time. At will powers become just seriously abused.

If I'm running a game, then I'll be running the NPCs at a level appropriate to their enemies. If that means the Vrock goes around with mirror image up 24/7, then so be it. If that means Balors blasphemy juggle to give a decent challenge, then so be it. More likely I'd house rule potential magic problems before they happened, and I'd have some sensible rules of thumb about enemy behavior.

That means I'd curb the most ludicrous interpretations of the rules on both sides, and then have enemies behave as intelligently as is reasonable for them. Naturally that means gods who are very intelligent aren't stupid. Which is an assumption given their stats.


Oh and...
gather information and Survival "i.e. track"

Why would you be able to track a hermit that live hundreds of miles away? Or do you mean CoP to find some random criminal? Why the heck do you think a god is going to drop what he's doing to hunt such a person down for you? They're busy people...come back when you have IMPORTANT QUESTIONS.


Also... there are going to be gods that can do it and sometimes one god will trump another and you'll get what you need depending on who you ask.

So let me end this now. Boccob is the Greater God of knowledge. NO ONE OPPOSES HIM, save Tharizdun. Who is an intermidiate god.
Its be awesome if you conceded your argument now.

Eh, big conflict between good and evil...not really the God of Knowledge's portfolio, now is it? And no, his portfolio isn't every thing that happens ever. Please note, this is the only way a god can peer into the future.

Regarding general knowledge questions though? Sure, he can answer those. No problem. Exact information about significant enemies in the present? Much more likely there's a significant god that doesn't want that enemy wacked. That doesn't mean you can't find out some information on the enemy, but don't expect to get nearly everything.


So I checked Ebberon too.... They don't seem to have greater and lesser dieties there. So no ones blocking anything. . . if you want to get princy about it. The dark six oppose the sovereign and NOTHING OPPOSES THE SILVER FLAME in any direct fashion.

I'm not very familiar with Eberron, so I can't answer this. If I was running a campaign there, then there'd be sensible limits as with anything else.


Krynn: Gilean acts as mediator between good and evil, a greater diety of knowledge that no one opposes.

Again, being a god of knowledge doesn't mean you know about everything. It has to be an event that concerns knowledge directly.


Even then you're argument that "They can, so they do" is weak. Really weak. Further in faerun there's Ao, so you know divination may just work because he wants it to.

It's not weak. Basic espionage: deny your enemy information. Can you even give me one good reason why a god wouldn't block rival gods?

Ao has a pretty hand-off approach. I don't see why he'd be stepping in to help out mortals. He certainly isn't going to be answering the phone if you try to call him.


Why does Ao do this? Cause divination isn't differntly written in faerun, he must want it to work.

Divination still works. Like CoP explicitly says though, there are just some things you don't even roll for an answer on; an answer is simply not available.

[Zale]

Nothing, I suppose. He is called the Uncaring, right?


Though if that happened, I don't imagine the players would be very.. happy.

[Drachasor]

Nothing, I suppose. He is called the Uncaring, right?


Though if that happened, I don't imagine the players would be very.. happy.

Well, certainly some questions about an enemy should be answerable. Gods have a lot of sources of information afterall, same with a lot of other entities. Asking what the bad guy is doing JUST THIS MOMENT and where exactly he is, what spells he has prepared, what the patrols are like....that's more likely to not get an answer. First, the people that can just take a look? They have very limited resources for that. Even Greater Gods just have 20 "eyes" that can look anywhere, and they have to cover their interests across the multiverse. Expecting one to drop whatever it is doing to do a quick looksee is rather...egocentric.

However, you should be able to find out what class the enemy is, maybe where he learned some of what he knows. Stuff like that. Probably best to ask where you can find out more information. That way you aren't limited to one word answers.

[Zale]

Well, certainly some questions about an enemy should be answerable. Gods have a lot of sources of information afterall, same with a lot of other entities. Asking what the bad guy is doing JUST THIS MOMENT and where exactly he is, what spells he has prepared, what the patrols are like....that's more likely to not get an answer. First, the people that can just take a look? They have very limited resources for that. Even Greater Gods just have 20 "eyes" that can look anywhere, and they have to cover their interests across the multiverse. Expecting one to drop whatever it is doing to do a quick looksee is rather...egocentric.

However, you should be able to find out what class the enemy is, maybe where he learned some of what he knows. Stuff like that. Probably best to ask where you can find out more information. That way you aren't limited to one word answers.

No I mean.

"Question"

"Unimportant"

"Other Question"

"Unimportant"

And so on.


If that was me, I would prefer "Unknown" to "I just don't care so shove it."

[JaronK]

So congratulations, you've contacted Boccob and no one can stop him from seeing something he wants to see. What's stopping him from simply answering "Unimportant" to every question you ask because you're a pathetic mortal and he doesn't feel like bothering with your calls?

And we're back to the "this spell does nothing at all" interpretation of the rules.

This is also where the binary logic trick works great. The solution to X isn't unimportant... good luck ever solving a math problem on a test with "unimportant" and having that graded as correct. And he does know the answer, so he can't say I don't know. There really isn't anything to do but give that numerical answer.

Asking for the solution to an equation is the only way to avoid the nonsense being brought up in this thread, clearly. This is why badly railroading DMs who try to stealth nerf like this end up with super optimizing players as they desperately try to gain some traction in the world.

Also... I love that at this point the only way to stop mid level Wizards is the gods themselves working to block all of them.

JaronK

[Calimehter]

And no, you don't have to remove free will. In fact, since the gods knew in advance more than the players or DM did, I've actually DM'd divinations by getting to the point in time they asked about and saying "okay, the answer you got back then was X, how did that help you prepare for this?" This allowed the players to have information gained that way, and it was actually a lot of fun working out what was said so as to give this particular information and then let them use it. It requires some maturity from players but with a little work can be quite handy.

This solves causality issues as well, since we can work out what the wording was after knowing the action and screw with things a little. For example, if the player asked if he was going to go first to town A or town B, and was planning to go to the opposite of the answer, we can simply have him go to the appropriate town, and then give a cryptic enough answer that he could have gotten confused. And usually, I can actually get the players to come up with the answer that might have got them there.

I'm happy this works out for you and yours. Its basically a *lot* of ret-conning of in-game details and actions, though, isn't it? That can get pretty disruptive to gameflow and/or suspension of disbelief IMO.

[Drachasor]

No I mean.

"Question"

"Unimportant"

"Other Question"

"Unimportant"

And so on.


If that was me, I would prefer "Unknown" to "I just don't care so shove it."

Well, I'd generally assume you contact an entity that isn't going to be a total jack***...if I was running the game.

[Drachasor]

Also... I love that at this point the only way to stop mid level Wizards is the gods themselves working to block all of them.

If you are mid-level, why do you think you are so important a god is going to waste one of his remote sensors on your relatively petty concerns? If you ARE that important, why wouldn't a god that is against your goals blocking it?

Expecting to get Remote Sensor data from CoP is rather silly. That's not to say you can't get a lot of other kinds of information though.

[Drakevarg]

And we're back to the "this spell does nothing at all" interpretation of the rules.

Of course it does things. It just doesn't do anything that the gods - that is, the plot - don't want it to.


good luck ever solving a math problem on a test with "unimportant" and having that graded as correct.

And why would Boccob care if the Wizard didn't find the answer acceptable?


Also... I love that at this point the only way to stop mid level Wizards is the gods themselves working to block all of them.

Yes, it's wonderful that the only way to block information given to you by the gods is to have the gods not give you that information. Amazing how that works.

And it's not like there aren't a dozen other divination spells that DON'T rely on the idea that there's an omnipresent well of infomation floating around out there that'll happily hand over whatever you ask for.

[Zale]

Well, I'd generally assume you contact an entity that isn't going to be a total jack***...if I was running the game.

Then why did you use that as an example?

Sorry, Drachasor. Brain fart. :smallfrown:

[Drachasor]

Then why did you use that as an example?

Well, I'm explicitly talking about expecting to get Remote Sensor information. That's how a Greater God can know exactly where someone is, what they are doing, etc, etc. I suppose if they were after that, I'd tell my hypothetical players something to the equivalent of "do it yourself."

Apology accepted, Admiral Zale.:xykon:

[Zale]

And why would Boccob care if the Wizard didn't find the answer acceptable?


Why wouldn't he?

You have to keep your eye on those Wizards. If you don't, they may do something stupid and destabilize the cosmos.

[Drakevarg]

Why wouldn't he?

You have to keep your eye on those Wizards. If you don't, they may do something stupid and destabilize the cosmos.

Right, I keep forgetting I'm one of the few people who plays gods as being essentially omnipotent in regards to everything except each other.

[Acanous]

CoP is a fairly high-level spell with some serious drawbacks. If you're going to cast it, then you're going to be asking some pertinant questions about important things.

Why would Boccob, Asmodeus, or Wee Jass answer a CoP? Well, for starters, you're propably only going to bug them if your cause is alligned to theirs. You're propably only going to ask them questions that they'd know the answers to. (Or at least, questions you can reasonably assume they'd know the answers to)
You will get some good information, possibly some bad, but it will be relevant if you did your homework and you're not asking for info that creature would find subversive to it's own intrests.

I've played a few wizards, but I've only cast Contact other plane twice- once to ask a deity of the sea if there were going to be any storms between city A and city B during week C while I'd be boat travelling between those cities.
I then asked if I'd be attacked by sea monsters if I took the voyage.(Something he'd know, wouldn't be too upset about revealing, and let me know without breaking the game). Finally I asked about pirates, but that was unknown. So I prepared for pirates. Sure enough, the pirate encounter happened, and it went well for me.

The second time, I was trying to hide a half-fiend child from inquisitors, and asked Asmodeus where I could take the child that would be safe enough to gueruntee he made it to adulthood. The one-word reply? "Undermountain".

It worked.

[JaronK]

I'm happy this works out for you and yours. Its basically a *lot* of ret-conning of in-game details and actions, though, isn't it? That can get pretty disruptive to gameflow and/or suspension of disbelief IMO.

No, since they were only using it to position themselves properly and prepare appropriate spells.

JaronK

[JaronK]

And why would Boccob care if the Wizard didn't find the answer acceptable?

Because that's what the spell does, and because he can't answer falsely or randomly (and yes, answering "unimportant" is a random useless answer) unless the dice result in that. Basically, a mid level Wizard is the sort of character that asks gods for advice and gets it. Yes, it's crazy powerful, but they can also summon genies for infinite wishes if they really want.


Yes, it's wonderful that the only way to block information given to you by the gods is to have the gods not give you that information. Amazing how that works.

By RAW, they give it to you.

What are you going to claim next, Clerics are weak because the gods can also block divine energy from flowing into Clerics to give them spells? They can do that, you know.


And it's not like there aren't a dozen other divination spells that DON'T rely on the idea that there's an omnipresent well of infomation floating around out there that'll happily hand over whatever you ask for.

Yes, and one that explicitly hands you access to that very thing.

Or you can just be an Anima Mage and bind Zceryll to summon a few Divas that can spam Divination spells for you. That works too.

JaronK

[Optimator]

Edit: I answered before reading the whole thread and my specific point was brought up (twice), so I'll retract what I wrote.

You can so totally take 10 on CoP.

[Drakevarg]

Because that's what the spell does, and because he can't answer falsely or randomly (and yes, answering "unimportant" is a random useless answer) unless the dice result in that.

Except he totally can, and it's explicitly spelled out as much.


Once the Outer Planes are reached, the power of the deity contacted determines the effects. (Random results obtained from the table are subject to DM changes, the personalities of individual deities, and so on.)

Meaning that if Boccob doesn't want to tell you, he doesn't need to tell you.


What are you going to claim next, Clerics are weak because the gods can also block divine energy from flowing into Clerics to give them spells? They can do that, you know.

Yes they can. Believe it or not, it's not only Paladins that fall. Just because it doesn't work to your advantage doesn't make it any less true. Dismissing it as bad DMing is just a scapegoat.

[faceroll]

I'm happy this works out for you and yours. Its basically a *lot* of ret-conning of in-game details and actions, though, isn't it? That can get pretty disruptive to gameflow and/or suspension of disbelief IMO.

Yeah. Contact Other Plane, for use as casual charop, seems highly abusive and disruptive. Given the text of the spell, it seems pretty obvious that players should use it when the rogue botches his recon missions, the bard botches his gather info checks, and the wizard botches his knowledge check. Like a "hey, I think we missed a plot check", not "what spells have all our enemies prepared today, and what would be the ideal spells to prepare to defeat them".


This is why badly railroading DMs who try to stealth nerf like this end up with super optimizing players as they desperately try to gain some traction in the world.

Seems like pretty bad manners on the part of players to pull crap like that on the DM.


Why wouldn't he?

"Boccob the Uncaring"
It's like, his thing, man.

[Zale]

"Boccob the Uncaring"
It's like, his thing, man.

So now Boccob decides he doesn't care enough to keep track of what the more dangerous wizards are doing?

:smallconfused:

Nice knowing you Boccob.

[faceroll]

So now Boccob decides he doesn't care enough to keep track of what the more dangerous wizards are doing?

:smallconfused:

Nice knowing you Boccob.

Meh. Have you seen their stats in Deities & Demigods? Pun-Pun already cheesed them out with eschewed materials ice assassin. :smallsigh:

[Amphetryon]

Of course it does things. It just doesn't do anything that the gods - that is, the plot - don't want it to.

Please clarify what it DOES do, then.

[Midnight_v]

Seems like pretty bad manners on the part of players to pull crap like that on the DM
It's bratty to stealth nerf things so thats bad manners too.
1. Tell people if your interpretation of the rules ends up with. "You can't use X to do X even if the rules say so."
Thats only fair.

Again, being a god of knowledge doesn't mean you know about everything. It has to be an event that concerns knowledge directly.

Gilean, also known as the Book, the Sage, and the Gray Voyager, represents the godly force of knowledge. He supports the growth of the soul through attaining knowledge and experience. He is the holder of the Tobril, which contains the divine plan of the High God for the world.
Since you responded to him. Having "The Plan" yeah he likely does know.

so
2. The whole thing where he keeps trying to say Can potentially = The always do... isn't true.
He's just making up rules. The second you try to introduce your personal logic into the conversation then things go awry.
Basically trying to desperately create a scenario where you can't ask questions aobut people and at the same time he's stated that you can use it to find people "even a hobo"
Its just disingenous, and inconsistent.
You can aske people not to use it that way, you can house rule it that way, and yes you could theoretically block certain God's from divining your chosen's mission or whatever.
IF that god is less powerful than you and IF you know that God is the one being contacted. Which is pretty much fiat.
Thats my problem with Drach, its not that he's not entitled to say it doesn't work like that in his world. Its that he's trying to stretch the rules to MAKE it work his way where it clearly doesn't in the raw.

All God's blocking at all times cause of thier enemies was met with
"This God's isnn't being blocked by anybody" so your argument falls apart.
Lead to:
Well it'd fail because the individual npc is protected by:

Much more likely there's a significant god that doesn't want that enemy wacked Riiiiight maybe a couple of divine guys here and there but overall thats just more straw grasping.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Well This is an interesting and long thread.
First I'd like to say that I don't generally run Plot centric games I generally run sand box games or what I call concept games(essentialy the group is like i want to play a den of thieves game, i give them a location and some starting information) I generally play a reactive GMing style. I also similar to Jarnok like to follow raw. However Dieties are one of those things that has wierd raw rulings.
For example nothing explains how they keep or sustain there powers. Which is very Setting specific, which via the way the spell is written is very setting specific.

When I play I generally don't take spells like this because i haven't found a GM I can trust.

Now I disagree with the person that says that all dieties can block every one else's simple because of:

"Block Sensing

As a standard action, a deity of rank 1 or higher can block the sensing ability of other deities of its rank or lower. This power extends for a radius of one mile per rank of the deity, or within the same distance around a temple or other locale sacred to the deity, or the same distance around a portfolio-related event. The deity can block two remote locations at once, plus the area within one mile of itself. The blockage lasts 1 hour per divine rank. "
By RAW it can block up to two "Locations" as a standard action for up to 20 hours assuming a rank 20 diety.
Which your right why wouldn't they. Well depending on the deity I am sure that all the other deities may think of reasons why they would not want that spot blocked. Or better yet mabye they think that diety that is blocking it is up to no good. Like mask or cyric or a number of other gods. And also remember they can only Sense events related to there portfolio.

Generally, When my players use divination spells I tell them what is likely to happen if they continue there current actions. I am personally a believe in Fate, as such my worlds generally work on a fate principle. Every one has there fate what makes them special is if they are able to change it.

Granted I don't think RAW supports this but RAW is vague on this for a purpose, its Vague so it can fit into a lot of different cosmos. A lot of the arguments here are more about setting then RAW. How a deity acts is a Setting thing how the spell works is Raw. Generally I conform my deities answers to how I rolled on the table. Other wise why have them even cast the spell at all. But again that's probably because I look at DND as more of a simulation so to say.

Granted by Raw things like the Tippy verse happen. Who needs farmers when you have resetting traps that summon food.


I like how forgotten realms handles it. Deities have limited abilities, and depending on how many people worship them is how strong they are. So they wouldn't waste resources stopping people from divining on things that are unimportant to them. And well if there was something important enough for them to block I am sure there are other deities out there that want to know or have already found out.

any way my 2 cp.

[Midnight_v]

Contact Other Plane
Divination
Level: Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Concentration

You send your mind to another plane of existence (an Elemental Plane or some plane farther removed) in order to receive advice and information from powers there. (See the accompanying table for possible consequences and results of the attempt.) The powers reply in a language you understand, but they resent such contact and give only brief answers to your questions. (All questions are answered with “yes,” “no,” “maybe,” “never,” “irrelevant,” or some other one-word answer.)

You must concentrate on maintaining the spell (a standard action) in order to ask questions at the rate of one per round. A question is answered by the power during the same round. For every two caster levels, you may ask one question.

Contact with minds far removed from your home plane increases the probability that you will incur a decrease to Intelligence and Charisma, but the chance of the power knowing the answer, as well as the probability of the entity answering correctly, are likewise increased by moving to distant planes.

Once the Outer Planes are reached, the power of the deity contacted determines the effects. (Random results obtained from the table are subject to the personalities of individual deities.)

On rare occasions, this divination may be blocked by an act of certain deities or forces.

d% is rolled for the result shown on the table:
It happens but its only supposed to happen rarely.
Its not "always on block by dieties" no matter how very wrongly Drach is trying to stretch the rules.


When I play I generally don't take spells like this because i haven't found a GM I can trust.
+1
Its one of the main reasons I Dm. People are either ignorant or carrying misconceptions that D&D is supposed to still be that Gygaxian DM vs The players trash, sometimes they're just out right dishonest, but mostly I find that many many people are mechanically distanced or too immature to do it.
So often its just me.

[Drakevarg]

Please clarify what it DOES do, then.

Let you know stuff that either won't derail the plot or will put the plot back on the rails. :smallamused:

[faceroll]

It's bratty to stealth nerf things so thats bad manners too.
1. Tell people if your interpretation of the rules ends up with. "You can't use X to do X even if the rules say so."
Thats only fair.

Hardly. Expecting to play an internet wizard in a RL game is kind of ridiculous. Good luck finding a group that will allow you to play with yourself like that.

[Drachasor]

Its not "always on block by dieties" no matter how very wrongly Drach is trying to stretch the rules.

{{scrubbed}} I'm only talking about the block regarding rare circumstances. Of course, the other limiting factor is that the "random" results are still subject to the personalities of the deities (e.g. the DM is explicitly told he can ignore the table). So just because you cast CoP doesn't mean Gilean has to tell you anything he knows -- in fact it would be quite against his personality to interfere in almost all cases.

The only one trying to stretch the rules is you. Claiming that just because you're playing an egocentric wizard, all the gods have to tell him what he wants to know, even if a spell explicitly says they need not (or might not even know).

I mean, seriously, if a LG Wizard contacts a Chaotic Evil god and asks for information on that god's head priest (so he may be killed), would you roll on the table for whether the information given was true or not?

[Claudius Maximus]

This brings up another point - what if you ask a god something directly pertaining to its portfolio, and the dice come up that it doesn't know?

[Midnight_v]

Hardly. Expecting to play an internet wizard in a RL game is kind of ridiculous. Good luck finding a group that will allow you to play with yourself like that.
Hmph. I'm not sure how to express this, but... whatever you THINK is out there from what you've seen of gaming groups, WAY more diverse gaming groups exist. I don't really know or care how you define ridiculous, but the whole "Good luck finding a group that blah blah blah" really, there are plenty of people playing D&D in ways you're sure to find onerous and surprising. I was suprised for instance that people actually sat down to play "EPIC" games using real epic spells. So you know, try looking out side your bubble a bit. I happend to dm, if you wanna play the diviner wizard, I'll allow it knock yourself out. There are not wrong threats, even if you think you have all the right answers. . . but I let the game be played as close to written as possible. So the things that are supposed to work work. You'll never get all the right things, further you're not the only caster in the world with various tricks. Comes with the game.

[Zale]

This brings up another point - what if you ask a god something directly pertaining to its portfolio, and the dice come up that it doesn't know?

"What is Magic Missle, Boccob?" :smallconfused:

"Unknown." :smallfrown:

[Amphetryon]

Let you know stuff that either won't derail the plot or will put the plot back on the rails. :smallamused:

That's more vague than any divination answer in the book, in my estimation. Please CLARIFY and SPECIFY what sort of stuff would be considered legitimate for CoP in your campaign.

[ryu]

I think what's happening here is circular argument where no one makes any headway. I have a proposal.

Can we agree that these divination spells are vague enough to be subject to interpretation and thus what they do is the dominion of the setting and dm. Further dms/players who can't agree on how it works in a peaceable manner (Appropriate to all expectations in the group) they probably shouldn't be gaming together. Honestly if you aren't even trying to play the same game and all choices lead to arguments why stomach each other?

For example1 low op: Plot hook finder with occasional help in important matters.

2 high op: Full on learn the universe one step at a time creative fun shenanigans.

[ko_sct]

"What is Magic Missle, Boccob?" :smallconfused:

"Unknown." :smallfrown:

I, for one, could totally see this as the beginnning of an epic campaign to discover exactly what is magic.

Lot's of peoples know how to wield and use magic, but nobody, not even the god of magic, is 100% sure of what it is and how it came to be. :smallsmile:

[faceroll]

I think what's happening here is circular argument where no one makes any headway. I have a proposal.

Can we agree that these divination spells are vague enough to be subject to interpretation and thus what they do is the dominion of the setting and dm. Further dms/players who can't agree on how it works in a peaceable manner (Appropriate to all expectations in the group) they probably shouldn't be gaming together. Honestly if you aren't even trying to play the same game and all choices lead to arguments why stomach each other?

For example1 low op: Plot hook finder with occasional help in important matters.

2 high op: Full on learn the universe one step at a time creative fun shenanigans.

It's pretty clear how they work, by RAW. You can pretty much divine whatever you like if you've got the time and spell slots. But if you play it that way, it really changes the course of the game. If you're the DM, and you had any faction or whatever without wizard or cleric casting = level of players, you may as well not bother with it, it will be so trivially circumvented.

[Drachasor]

It's pretty clear how they work, by RAW. You can pretty much divine whatever you like if you've got the time and spell slots. But if you play it that way, it really changes the course of the game. If you're the DM, and you had any faction or whatever without wizard or cleric casting = level of players, you may as well not bother with it, it will be so trivially circumvented.

Actually, by RAW you can ATTEMPT to divine whatever you like. The DM is free to decide that some stuff you can't get -- this is explicitly stated in certain spells.

[ryu]

Which is where the point of my post comes in. If the dm and the players can't come to an agreement on it they're both worse off for playing together. This is doubly so for people who have access to play by post games and thus a huge number of options.

[Drachasor]

Which is where the point of my post comes in. If the dm and the players can't come to an agreement on it they're both worse off for playing together. This is doubly so for people who have access to play by post games and thus a huge number of options.

Agreed. However there are some here saying the DM doesn't have any say in how spells like Contact Other Plane work, even though it says he does. Acting like the DM is being an arbitrary bastard when what he does is well within the rules and make sense is not a good place for a player to be -- and conversing an DM actually being an arbitrary bastard wouldn't be a good place for him.

[faceroll]

Agreed. However there are some here saying the DM doesn't have any say in how spells like Contact Other Plane work, even though it says he does. Acting like the DM is being an arbitrary bastard when what he does is well within the rules and make sense is not a good place for a player to be -- and conversing an DM actually being an arbitrary bastard wouldn't be a good place for him.

Oh no, if the DM ever causes a hindrance to an internet wizard, he's "bratty" and making "stealth nerfs".

[ryu]

The inverse is also true. If you're a single low op player or dm trying to tell everyone else how they should play/run the game you've as much reason to be their as they have to invite you to sessions. The ninja playing with two wizards, a cleric, and a druid who demands to contribute equally for example. Bonus points if they refuse to budge so much as an inch.

[Infernalbargain]

It is quite clear that if player's have agency, then deities do not know things that are even in their own portfolio.

Taking Boccob's portfolio of magic; you asking him "What level of spell will I cast next?" If Boccob knows everything about his own portfolio and players have agency, then no matter what Boccob says the player will cast the player can simply choose to cast something else. Once a player does that, Boccob becomes an inaccurate source of information regarding his own portfolio. If the GM decides that Boccob is always accurate in his information regarding his portfolio, then one must note that whether Boccob knows something is independent of whether Boccob is asked about it. So whether or not a player asks Boccob what spell that player is going to cast next, Boccob knows what that spell is going to be. Since GM has stated Boccob is infallible with regards to his portfolio, Boccob knows every spell the player is going to cast and when (up to 1 week per divine rank into future), now the player cannot chose what spells they are going to cast. I'm sure the player would be thrilled to play in a campaign where the GM dictates every spell because the GM is the only one that knows what Boccob knows.

So now that I have proven that deities do not know everything in their portfolios, we now have to sift through what deities do and do not know.

[ryu]

The dm doesn't know what the gods know either. That's kinda the thing about the whole god concept. On principle gods as written are supposed to know more than the dm or the players for that matter. To the point in fact that you could ask them questions every second for the rest of your natural life and still you wouldn't have a fraction of their full knowledge.

[Rogue Shadows]

Taking Boccob's portfolio of magic; you asking him "What level of spell will I cast next?"

GM: Boccob answers with the correct spell level.
Player: So which is it, specifically?
GM: I don't know, I'm not Boccob. But Boccob answers your wizard's question precisely.
Player: Boccob is very wise.
GM: Quite.

[AMFV]

Basically, IMHO (the correct one), it depends greatly on your level of optimization. In a high-op game the DM should wreck players for not scrying beforehand, and the DM should wreck players for not getting the first shot. Basically if divination is being used brokenly that means that the DM can use more challenging or complex encounters than the players would normally be able to solve as they should scry them. In a low-op game the players, should avoid using scrying spells to break the game.

Note: I used the word should up there, this is very much my personal opinion, and I am not trying to suggest that there are only two courses of action here, but in my opinion those are the best ones.

[LordBlades]

Nobody is superhuman, every DM has his limits regarding both mechanics and story, and it's normal. It's perfectly OK (for me at least) to have the DM come to the players before the game (or even in game) and say 'Guys, these are the things I can handle/find fun; these are the things I don't. This is the limit, so please don't cross it, so we can have a game that's challenging and entertaining for everyone'.

What I consider extremely bad mannered, childish and passive-aggressive are attitudes like 'I can't handle this/don't find this fun at all, so let me quickly invent a reason why it doesn't work like it should, because I don't want to tell the players I can't handle it/don't find it fun'.

It's perfectly ok to nerf things, but for God's sake, man up to it. Don't hide behind the finger and try to craft justifications regarding why 'you're totally not nerfing it'.

[turkishproverb]

And that has what to do with using the Rules As Written?

Look, I understand people feel betrayed. RAW usually has so many fun, often catgirl killing, loopholes to allow players to do stupid, irresponsible, unintended things, they naturally think everything in it should work to do so. Problem is, RAW says what RAW says, and claiming "CHEATING", "Nerfing", or "LAZY" or similar because a DM or anyone else points out that RAW does not in fact force him to do what you want him to do, but says he can do the opposite, is not his fault.

[Yahzi]

Taking Boccob's portfolio of magic; you asking him "What level of spell will I cast next?" If Boccob knows everything about his own portfolio and players have agency, then no matter what Boccob says the player will cast the player can simply choose to cast something else.
Boccob answers "1st."
On the next round a Minotaur with 17 levels of Sorcerer appears and casts Empowered Twinned Maximized Magic Missile at you. Because Boccob told him to.

You betcha you're going to cast Shield.


I'm sure the player would be thrilled to play in a campaign where the GM dictates every spell because the GM is the only one that knows what Boccob knows.
The player would probably stop asking Boccob those questions, then. :smallbiggrin:

[LordBlades]

Look, I understand people feel betrayed. RAW usually has so many fun, often catgirl killing, loopholes to allow players to do stupid, irresponsible, unintended things, they naturally think everything in it should work to do so. Problem is, RAW says what RAW says, and claiming "CHEATING", "Nerfing", or "LAZY" or similar because a DM or anyone else points out that RAW does not in fact force him to do what you want him to do, but says he can do the opposite, is not his fault.

Assuming this has something to do with my post: Games where a players vs. DM attitude develops aren't exactly fun. Screwing with your players just because you can (regardless whether you're covered by RAW or not) has no place in a friendly game IMHO(and it works both ways, sooner or later they’ll screw with you assuming they just don’t leave the group). I'm not saying a DM should do exactly what a player wants, but they should find a middle ground that's fun for everyone.

Let's say you don't like CoP much because it kills your plot. You can either say 'I don't feel comfortable with CoP for reasons X,Y and Z, so I'm not allowing it' or you can allow it but answer every question with 'Irrelevant' (which is perfectly RAW). Which of those 2 is more fun?

[Drachasor]

Assuming this has something to do with my post: Games where a players vs. DM attitude develops aren't exactly fun. Screwing with your players just because you can (regardless whether you're covered by RAW or not) has no place in a friendly game IMHO(and it works both ways, sooner or later they’ll screw with you assuming they just don’t leave the group). I'm not saying a DM should do exactly what a player wants, but they should find a middle ground that's fun for everyone.

Let's say you don't like CoP much because it kills your plot. You can either say 'I don't feel comfortable with CoP for reasons X,Y and Z, so I'm not allowing it' or you can allow it but answer every question with 'Irrelevant' (which is perfectly RAW). Which of those 2 is more fun?

No one is saying COP can't answer questions. We've said this time and time again. The rules, however, are extremely clear that the DM determines what questions it can answer. There are guidelines to help the DM (and players here). First, powerful beings can BLOCK information from being discovered (and indeed, the rules on gods describe how some of the information YOU have said you'd go after could be blocked). Second, COP doesn't force ANY deity to act out of character.

You want to act like these EXPLICIT limitations don't exist. You want to act like a DM using the guidelines the rules give him is being passive aggressive. That's ridiculous. The spell has limitations. The spell clearly states guidelines for those limitations. Deal with it.

Claiming the DM is in the wrong for using the guidelines well within the spirit of the rules is, quite frankly, a very unpleasant way to deal with something you personally don't like. Might as well get upset if the DM enforces limitations on Wish.

In short, casters ARE extremely powerful. Played at their full level of ability, a wizard, cleric, druid, or sorcerer is more powerful than any non-caster could possibly be. That does not mean their power is unlimited. They are not quite as powerful as you are making them out to be.

[LordBlades]

No one is saying COP can't answer questions. We've said this time and time again. The rules, however, are extremely clear that the DM determines what questions it can answer. There are guidelines to help the DM (and players here). First, powerful beings can BLOCK information from being discovered (and indeed, the rules on gods describe how some of the information YOU have said you'd go after could be blocked). Second, COP doesn't force ANY deity to act out of character.

Completely agree with that. It's just that the attitude of some posters came to me something along the lines of 'how dare the players try to find out stuff about their future enemies and be prepared? I'll show them'. It's that kind of attitude I was condemning.


You want to act like these EXPLICIT limitations don't exist. You want to act like a DM using the guidelines the rules give him is being passive aggressive. That's ridiculous. The spell has limitations. The spell clearly states guidelines for those limitations. Deal with it.

I've never said those limitations don't exist. All I've said is that taken to the extreme (answering all questions with 'Irrelevant' is RAW after all) they don't add anything to the enjoyment of the game, on the contrary. It's other people that tried to impose additional limitations on CoP (like not being able to take 10 on int checks or arguing that portfolio sense doesn't work) and claim they were RAW.


Claiming the DM is in the wrong for using the guidelines well within the spirit of the rules is, quite frankly, a very unpleasant way to deal with something you personally don't like. Might as well get upset if the DM enforces limitations on Wish.

I never claimed the DM was 'wrong'. All I said was that stealth nerfing something you don't like as a DM (taking the limitations of CoP too far IS stealth nerfing) as opposed to an open discussion with the players is the wrong way to do it.


In short, casters ARE extremely powerful. Played at their full level of ability, a wizard, cleric, druid, or sorcerer is more powerful than any non-caster could possibly be. That does not mean their power is unlimited. They are not quite as powerful as you are making them out to be.

Casters have infinite power. See all TO tricks involving casters. It's just that playable casters stop at a finite level of power for the exact purpose of being playable.

[SiuiS]

This is terrible advice, and taking an attitude like this is far more likely to get you kicked from the group than it is to make you "win".

Seconded. I've done it, all it does is change the dynamic to one of "if I'm not having fun with D&D, I'll have fun making you miserable."


I think there's some room between banning the spell and limiting its effects without railroading.

Quite so.



Regardless of the limitations what Divination and the above magic might be, I think the larger point is clear. *Casters have a variety of resources to research their enemies and change all of their spells to defeat them, limited only by the logistics of doing so and the unpredictability of their enemy/fate/DM. *Non-casters (with some sneaky exceptions) generally must go door to door in the enemy's dungeon/castle/lair/etc and react to danger as it presents itself, and cannot efficiently change their class abilities to fight that specific enemy.

That's an interesting way of putting it into perspective. You're right, of course, but it's hard to see the forest for the trees sometimes. "casters win" doesn't mean much anymore, it's jut a phrase. Breaking it down to "casters can change the game dynamic and how they approach the game, while non casters must follow linear paths" is a good bit more sobering.


On the subject of "The Gods know because they know everything!" :*



"Will the BBEG cast slay living" : Yes.
"Will I pass the save" : Unknown

This is perfectly valid. *The deities may know that an event will occur (which can change based on the answer given, or any number of other things that can happen along the way), but they don't necessarily know the outcome thereof. *Along these lines, if a player insists on abusing CoP this way, I intend to always give them the unfavorable answer. *They'll always fail their saves, miss their attacks, and their opponents will be unstoppable machines. *Let the players sort the rest out for themselves, and change their future.

This actually seems like a fun solution with the right group. It changes the game into a Forge Your Own Destiny kind of thing.

Of course, in a more literal minded sense, his would come off as petty. All in the presentation I suppose.


No. There really isn't.*
Either I can ask and get accurate/reliable answer to my questions through mechanical means or not.

This confuses me. There is always granularity. Always. Getting a reliable answer to your question: maybe. Getting a reliable answer to every question ever, no matter how detailed: I would say no.



Which a fancy way of saying "I ban divination of this type"

Not at all. "I ban divination" and "there is a epic level power, directly opposed to you who does not want you to have this information, and so is preventing you from having it" are similar in immediate results, but not synonymous.

Again, granted, it depends on the group. I've gamed with a guy who flat-out isn't allowed to DM any more, so he moved to a different city. I've games with a guy who aspires to write novels, and plays things more by story feel. Guy 1 gets a broken nose for doing this sort of thing, guy 2 gets a heated argument, some temporary resentment, and we get a lot of satisfaction for finally thwarting our interceptor.

Presentation.


You could reasonable nerf the spell too if you wanted. *For example, you could limit it to a set series of answers, or give it a greater cost, or something. *But claiming "even the gods don't know the future past a single roll" is an arbitrary decision, poorly thought out, to counter one spell. *And it has far reaching effects that the DM clearly hasn't considered.

I disagree with you, here. The spell works, we've (well, 'you've' as I had nothing to do with it) that the spell can accurately predict events, provided nothing changes. This means things changing can circumvent divination. But it doesn't automatically make the very next roll an off-switch for divination, either. You don't have to play it like a butterfly effect; wither you kick or don't kick the rowdy commoner down the road won't necessarily affect your attempt to assassinate the king. Whether that commoner overhears your plans or not, much better chance of changing the outcome.


And no, you don't have to remove free will. *In fact, since the gods knew in advance more than the players or DM did, I've actually DM'd divinations by getting to the point in time they asked about and saying "okay, the answer you got back then was X, how did that help you prepare for this?" *This allowed the players to have information gained that way, and it was actually a lot of fun working out what was said so as to give this particular information and then let them use it. *It requires some maturity from players but with a little work can be quite handy.

This solves causality issues as well, since we can work out what the wording was after knowing the action and screw with things a little. *For example, if the player asked if he was going to go first to town A or town B, and was planning to go to the opposite of the answer, we can simply have him go to the appropriate town, and then give a cryptic enough answer that he could have gotten confused. *And usually, I can actually get the players to come up with the answer that might have got them there.

Could you clarify this? It sounds intriguing but I don't quite see what you're getting at. You fast forward to the event in question, so they have the information? Or when they get there, you tell them "this is what you divined, what were your preparations?"

That last one sounds most likely. Also, eminently workable. Hm.


In laymen's terms, an event in a single moment in time where two or more things interact with each other.



Well, like I already said, the rules cover people not knowing. *A Deity can't know the future around an event if another Deity of equal or greater rank blocks it. *Well, if your portfolio is "fuzzy bunnies" (yeah, you're a god now!), then there's another god out there with "killing fuzzy bunnies" as theirs (what a jerk!). *It is safe to assume you both block each other. *If there is another deity blocking, then you can know OF the event and some fuzzy details, but you won't know specifics. *That's RAW, which many people are ignoring.

This sounds like a campaign basis. The gods can view X number of events each. They can also intercept X number of events. So the majority of their power goes into the meta game; get a party or a 'game piece' into position, convince the other god that they aren't worth paying attention to, and then slip them vital info at just the right time for an alpha strike.

Hay, given the D&D trope of 'X has a prophetic vision, which must occur to save our kingdom' this could reasonably be assumed to be a standard part of the background.

I wonder what would go in to planning a game like this? I'll give it a look-see.


so basically saying a wizard can break the game with divination is like saying a Bard can break the game....if the DM happens to like scenarios where you chalenge the Devil to a violin contest

Bards can break the game. Level three, everyone in my party gets +5 to hit and damage, and +5d6 sonic damage, on every attack.

Fights don't last long enough for the effects to fade, at that point :smallbiggrin:


Yeah. Contact Other Plane, for use as casual charop, seems highly abusive and disruptive. Given the text of the spell, it seems pretty obvious that players should use it when the rogue botches his recon missions, the bard botches his gather info checks, and the wizard botches his knowledge check. Like a "hey, I think we missed a plot check", not "what spells have all our enemies prepared today, and what would be the ideal spells to prepare to defeat them".

pretty sound viewpoint.



Seems like pretty bad manners on the part of players to pull crap like that on the DM.

having been one of those players, you're both right and wrong. It's all about context. After the fact, though, I would have been both smarter and kinder to just tell the DM I wasn't playing anymore.


This brings up another point - what if you ask a god something directly pertaining to its portfolio, and the dice come up that it doesn't know?

Well, that's easy, silly. Then you fudge the die in favor of the god knowing, just like you fudge in favor of the god not knowing in other situations.

Although the boccob/magic missile things is priceless.

-

Very enlightening thread. Thanks for that.

[hewhosaysfish]

Taking Boccob's portfolio of magic; you asking him "What level of spell will I cast next?"

Example 1:
Player (IC): Oh Great Boccob! Answer for me this question - What level of spell will I cast next?
DM (OOC): Psst, Dave, what spell are you planning to cast next?
Player (OOC): Prestigitation.
DM (IC): Zero!
Player (IC): Wow! Boccob knows everything!

Example 2:
Player (IC): Oh Great Boccob! Answer for me this question - What level of spell will I cast next?
DM (OOC): Psst, Dave, what spell are you planning to cast next?
Player (OOC): I'm going to cast whatever he say's I'm not going to cast.
DM (IC): You cannot cast any spells. Ever.
Player (IC/OOC): :smallfrown:

[Fouredged Sword]

Player (IC): Oh Great Boccob! Answer for me this question - What level of spell will I cast next?
DM (IC): An infinatly long scally arm reaches out of a portal to the asteral plane and smacks your player upside the head. Make a DC 10000 concentration check or lose your concentration on the spell.

Pun Pun punishes those who try to screw with fate/self-determination!

[Jack_Simth]

What's your divination defense spell? Answer without googling, or your likely way off base.

Arguing with the DM that Mind Blank stops such things as Commune and Contact Other Plane when Commune and Contact Other Plane are used to gather information about the Mind-Blanked subject.

Also: Contact Other Plane:
"How many words are there in the answer to the question 'How do I arrange for all other people using indirect divinations to gain information about me to fail at doing so?'"
"What is the first word in the answer to the question 'How do I arrange for all other people using indirect divinations to gain information about me to fail at doing so?' using the same answer as in my initial question?"
"What is the second word in the answer to the question 'How do I arrange for all other people using indirect divinations to gain information about me to fail at doing so?' using the same answer as in my initial question?"
"What is the third word in the answer to the question 'How do I arrange for all other people using indirect divinations to gain information about me to fail at doing so?' using the same answer as in my initial question?"
...
et cetera.

Now how sure are you that Contact Other Plane, Commune, and similar can answer anything if you roll well?

Alternately:
"How many people have been or will be using Contact Other Planes or Commune in an attempt gather information about me in [period of time]?"
"How many words are in the name of the first person who has been or will be using Contact Other Planes or Commune in an attempt to gather information about me in [period of time]?"
"What is the first word in the name of the first person who has been or will be using Contact Other Planes or Commune in an attempt to gather information about me in[period of time]?"
"What is the second word in the name of the first person who has been or will be using Contact Other Planes or Commune in an attempt to gather information about me in [period of time]?"
...
"How many words are in the name of the second person who has been or will be using Contact Other Planes or Commune in an attempt to gather information about me in[period of time]?"
...

And then use all the tactics you describe to target the would-be attacker.

Seriously, you don't want to get into this game with the DM. Especially as the DM has no actual need to roll the percentage check for the NPC that is the villian, and when the NPC that is the villian is usually going to be higher level than you are. Much, MUCH better to simply let Mind Blank function against such effects.



Further in the case of commune and CoP no ones firing anything in a targets direction. They're asking about them from a 3rd party who simply knows.
And yet, you're still using a divination spell or effect to gather information about the subject. Which is explicitly what Mind Blank stops.

Is it a bit pendantic? Yes. Of course, so is attempting to force the DM to answer questions about future events, and so is claiming an outer-planes deity will know pertinent details about a guy who spends the vast majority of his time under effects that specifically prevent people from gaining info about him.

So yeah. . . the caster will be doign the carpet bombing.
Yes... but which?

[faceroll]

PC wizard uses CoP to divine what spells the BBEG is going to prepare, and the party makes preparations.

The BBEG then casts CoP to divine what spells the party wizard has prepared.


WTF happens?

[Jack_Simth]

PC wizard uses CoP to divine what spells the BBEG is going to prepare, and the party makes preparations.

The BBEG then casts CoP to divine what spells the party wizard has prepared.


WTF happens?
Div 0 error. Please reboot the universe. Recent changes will be lost.

[Yora]

And here I was all "Oh wow, 6 pages of replies to my question from yesterday!"

Silly me...

Back to the actual question:

Supposed you're a Wizard 10 traveling through the mountains to an abandoned castle which is supposed to have a hidden vault that holds some magic thingy that you want. However, there is also an evil cleric of 12th level who also wants the thing, but you have seen no signs that he's also trying to get to the castle before you do. You've been on the road for 3 days and expect 3 more days of travel before you reach the ruin. There's a cleric, rogue, and barbarian in your party with you, all of them 10th level. It's morning and you're about to prepare your spells for the day.

What do you do to be prepared for anything you might encounter today?

[faceroll]

Yora:
Why didn't we teleport 3 days ago?

[LordBlades]

What do you do to be prepared for anything you might encounter today?[/B][/I]

You mean apart from teleporting to the nearest city that endorses slavery, selling the rogue and barbarian into slavery, selling their magic items and securing the services of another one or two tier 1 characters with the resulting cash, right?:smallbiggrin:

[Drachasor]

Casters have infinite power. See all TO tricks involving casters. It's just that playable casters stop at a finite level of power for the exact purpose of being playable.

They can't save a kingdom that was destroyed 1000 years ago.

Casters have a lot of power, in some cases they can arguably exert an unlimited force. However, they DO have limits in a lot of cases, and getting information about the future, or even present, is one of them.

[LordBlades]

They can't save a kingdom that was destroyed 1000 years ago.

Casters have a lot of power, in some cases they can arguably exert an unlimited force. However, they DO have limits in a lot of cases, and getting information about the future, or even present, is one of them.

By the strictest RAW you are wrong. Pun Pun can grant himself an (ex) ability called 'save kingdom x that was destroyed 1000 years ago as a free action' and does exactly that. Same goes for seeing the future. Pun Pun isn't exactly a caster (not in the lvl 1 version anyway,some of the others are) but still the point stands. In a TO environment it's doable.

[Midnight_v]

Oh no, if the DM ever causes a hindrance to an internet wizard, he's "bratty" and making "stealth nerfs".
Its the whole bad manners thing you were talking about. Also this internet wizard is a concept I've not heard before, though it seems that most of the things people don't like about D&D are things learned through trial and error, not gleaned from the internet. They come to the internet when they stuble across something they don't like: i.e."Charger build wrecking my balance". Or... just looking at the disparity between core Monk and Core Druid.
I don't like that you broke out the "good luck finding a group" thing. Seriously? Your limited perspective of thing isn't all there is. So right back atcha, I guess.


It's pretty clear how they work, by RAW. You can pretty much divine whatever you like if you've got the time and spell slots. But if you play it that way, it really changes the course of the game. If you're the DM, and you had any faction or whatever without wizard or cleric casting = level of players, you may as well not bother with it, it will be so trivially circumvented Thats actually OK.
I actually don't have much of an argument with you... you can actually acknowledge that and move on..
but this guy...

Lord of Blades: I never claimed the DM was 'wrong'. All I said was that stealth nerfing something you don't like as a DM (taking the limitations of CoP too far IS stealth nerfing) as opposed to an open discussion with the players is the wrong way to do it.
Really epitomizes my perspective.

I pretty much out right reject Drachasor's method, resoning, and some of his interpretation.

Acting like the DM is being an arbitrary bastard
Is totally acurate when you actually coming up with arbitrary bastardizations of the rules like:

Rival gods will stop sight into the future.
Rofl. Yeah thats pretty much Arbitrary bastard land Right. There.

Now if you man up and say "No" doing that is a "petty", "Bad-mannered", "wrong-fun", "Internet-mage" tactic, and I'm just not gonna hand you my campaign notes. Totally cool, and reasonable, having a discussion.
Trying to convince people that the God's block the spell so it never works, AS IF THATS INHERENT IN THE SPELL? {scrubb it myself}
Gitp, has pretty strict mod rules doesn't it? I was suprised you got away with telling me "Learn to read". I'm thinking: "Physician heal thyself."

I dont think it should be played that way in a game not to its fullest, no. So hopefully faceroll can redirect his argument elsewhere. However, it totally allows the spell to be used for combat effectivness. You're just making arbitrary reasons why it wouldn't work answering "Irrelavant" over and over again, or "I don't know" -the other gods block me (even though no one oppose me directly) I just disagree with your interpretation and the way you'r trying to work aroun it completely.

Divination is the reason "Mindblank" is pretty mandatory for high level play. Freedom of movement is pretty needed too, as well as items that boost stats etc. There are lots of things like that. we might not LIKE them but.... again as faceroll put it:

It's pretty clear how they work, by RAW

[Drachasor]

By the strictest RAW you are wrong. Pun Pun can grant himself an (ex) ability called 'save kingdom x that was destroyed 1000 years ago as a free action' and does exactly that. Same goes for seeing the future. Pun Pun isn't exactly a caster (not in the lvl 1 version anyway,some of the others are) but still the point stands. In a TO environment it's doable.

You don't decide what is an acceptable extraordinary, spell-like, or supernatural ability, the DM does. So no, he can't do that. If it is in a book, he can grant himself such an ability, assuming the DM is allowing that book or creature into play, but otherwise you're out of luck.

[Drachasor]

Really epitomizes my perspective.

I pretty much out right reject Drachasor's method, resoning, and some of his interpretation.

Yeah, let's just ignore the limits the spell itself sets. That's very 'reasonable' of you.

[LordBlades]

You don't decide what is an acceptable extraordinary, spell-like, or supernatural ability, the DM does. So no, he can't do that. If it is in a book, he can grant himself such an ability, assuming the DM is allowing that book or creature into play, but otherwise you're out of luck.

Actually the way Manipulate Form is worded Pun Pun can grant himself 'any extraordinary ability' not 'any printed' just 'any' so by RAW everything works here.

Also, TO discussions are not the place for bringing 'DM won't allow it' arguments.

[faceroll]

They can't save a kingdom that was destroyed 1000 years ago.

Teleport Through Time (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030409b)

Note that in eschew materials, there's no distinction between a priceless and a worthless material component. :smallbiggrin:

[Drachasor]

Actually the way Manipulate Form is worded Pun Pun can grant himself 'any extraordinary ability' not 'any printed' just 'any' so by RAW everything works here.

Also, TO discussions are not the place for bringing 'DM won't allow it' arguments.

And in TO discussions on Pun Pun, from what I've read, "any" means "any that appear in any book" not "anything you make up" because players don't have the power to create new (ex)/whatever abilities.

In any case, if you have to go to Pun Pun to counter my claim about limitations, then my point is proven quite sufficiently, I'd think.

[Acanous]

in answer to the origional question, the wizard prepares True Seeing, Prying Eyes, Detect Magic (A few times) and discern location (To cast on the cleric, so you know if he's in the ruins)

You may also wish to prepare assay spell resistance.
If you're thinking about fighting a cleric, the rest of your spells should really be conjuration and abjuration, with a sprinkling of evocation (Specifically touch spells or reflex saves), and alter self.

[Drachasor]

Teleport Through Time (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030409b)

Note that in eschew materials, there's no distinction between a priceless and a worthless material component. :smallbiggrin:

Special Note: The introduction of time travel into any campaign can be fraught with peril, so tread carefully. Players will wonder how much they can mess with the timeline, and you may run into instances of the grandfather paradox. Further, changes made very far back in time cannot really be worked out completely because of the chaotic aspect of events. Thus, it is simplest to use the rule that changes in time are minor and somehow time smooths them out. This argues for a determinism and predestination in the ways of your world, but you can say that once events have transpired, small perturbations are possible (this person lives rather than dies, but does not contribute to events in a meaningful way), but the large-scale events themselves somehow happen anyway. If the cause is changed, another cause comes along. In the case of someone killing their own grandfather, the PC might find that he is the same but has a different family when returning to the present. As long as you keep the knowledge of how to travel in time restricted, your campaign will not fall apart.

If you go with a different system than what is recommended, then I'll add "and come back" to my initial claim. (You would not be able to travel to a radically altered future by the rules of the spell, since that future is unknown to you).

[Midnight_v]

Yeah, let's just ignore the limits the spell itself sets. That's very 'reasonable' of you.


Contact Other Plane
Divination
Level: Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Concentration

You send your mind to another plane of existence (an Elemental Plane or some plane farther removed) in order to receive advice and information from powers there. (See the accompanying table for possible consequences and results of the attempt.) The powers reply in a language you understand, but they resent such contact and give only brief answers to your questions. (All questions are answered with “yes,” “no,” “maybe,” “never,” “irrelevant,” or some other one-word answer.)

You must concentrate on maintaining the spell (a standard action) in order to ask questions at the rate of one per round. A question is answered by the power during the same round. For every two caster levels, you may ask one question.

Contact with minds far removed from your home plane increases the probability that you will incur a decrease to Intelligence and Charisma, but the chance of the power knowing the answer, as well as the probability of the entity answering correctly, are likewise increased by moving to distant planes.

Once the Outer Planes are reached, the power of the deity contacted determines the effects. (Random results obtained from the table are subject to the personalities of individual deities.)

On rare occasions, this divination may be blocked by an act of certain deities or forces.
I'm tired of this child like bickering, between us. Here's the spell.
I highlighted the part that shows why you were wrong about the diety's blocking with any consitency that only happens on rare occasions.
What the spell does is Right there, thank you Srd.

Yeah, let's just ignore the limits the spell itself sets. That's very 'reasonable' of you
No, lets not. I really AM reasonable so here's the deal.
Help me out.
Copy the spell. Bold the "limits the spell itself sets."
So at least we can all see what it is you're specifically talking about.
You might have a point that just isn't obvious to me from reading the spell.
please help.

[olentu]

Special Note: The introduction of time travel into any campaign can be fraught with peril, so tread carefully. Players will wonder how much they can mess with the timeline, and you may run into instances of the grandfather paradox. Further, changes made very far back in time cannot really be worked out completely because of the chaotic aspect of events. Thus, it is simplest to use the rule that changes in time are minor and somehow time smooths them out. This argues for a determinism and predestination in the ways of your world, but you can say that once events have transpired, small perturbations are possible (this person lives rather than dies, but does not contribute to events in a meaningful way), but the large-scale events themselves somehow happen anyway. If the cause is changed, another cause comes along. In the case of someone killing their own grandfather, the PC might find that he is the same but has a different family when returning to the present. As long as you keep the knowledge of how to travel in time restricted, your campaign will not fall apart.

If you go with a different system than what is recommended, then I'll add "and come back" to my initial claim. (You would not be able to travel to a radically altered future by the rules of the spell, since that future is unknown to you).

I fail to see how using the spell for traveling to a radically altered future is important when one can just wait for the progress of time to get there on its own.

[LordBlades]

And in TO discussions on Pun Pun, from what I've read, "any" means "any that appear in any book" not "anything you make up" because players don't have the power to create new (ex)/whatever abilities.

In any case, if you have to go to Pun Pun to counter my claim about limitations, then my point is proven quite sufficiently, I'd think.

I merely used Pun Pun as the easiest solution.

Faceroll already gave you another answer to the kingdom problem, as for seeing the future, you can always employ Tleilaxu_Ghola's psicrystal save game trick, go see the future for yourself, then 'reload' and come prepared.

[Yora]

in answer to the origional question, the wizard prepares True Seeing, Prying Eyes, Detect Magic (A few times) and discern location (To cast on the cleric, so you know if he's in the ruins)
But you can't prepare discern location and true seeing at 10th level. Prying eyes would be one of your two prescious 5th level spells for the day.

[Drachasor]

I'm tired of this child like bickering, between us. Here's the spell.
I highlighted the part that shows why you were wrong about the diety's blocking with any consitency that only happens on rare occasions.

Yes, but my point is that the current discussion is about those rare occasion themselves. To me, what you are saying is like looking at the spell and saying "ok, so maybe 5% of all possible questions are blocked by another deity". Now let's look at those 5%...well, only 5% of those [5%] should be blocked right?

When you are dealing with future, major events, that's the exact type of rare circumstance that is most likely to be blocked.

The other line of note is: "(Random results obtained from the table are subject to the personalities of individual deities.) "

Which means that the DM can ignore the random table completely. If answering the particular question you have put forth is within the capabilities of the deity (in theory), that doesn't mean they'll answer it. If you ask "How far away is the big bad?" you can't count on getting an answer. Sure, a deity could find out, but that doesn't mean they'd expend the resources to go looking around on the Prime Material just to answer your question. COP doesn't make you a super VIP that a deity is going to focus significant resources on (and even ONE remote sensing "window" is a significant resource for a greater deity).

So I really don't think it is feasible, given these limits, to get location and other information necessary for a pinpoint strike with just one spell (even cast multiple times). That doesn't mean there's not a TON of information you can get -- it would not be unreasonable, most of the time to find out frequent haunts of the BBEG and perhaps even the general area for his base of operations. Almost any question you ask WILL get answered. It's just the tiniest selection that this thread has been focused on that would reasonably give problems.


I merely used Pun Pun as the easiest solution.

Faceroll already gave you another answer to the kingdom problem, as for seeing the future, you can always employ Tleilaxu_Ghola's psicrystal save game trick, go see the future for yourself, then 'reload' and come prepared.

Well, the kingdom thing was a bad example if that spell is in the game (which is quite arguably more powerful than Wish). If I must go with another limit, you can't rip the prime material plane asunder into tiny bits of torn reality. You can't kill a Greater God (we'll assume epic rules are not in play). There's other stuff.

[2xMachina]

Q: Can you do X?
Pun Pun: Yes I can.

[Rogue Shadows]

you can't rip the prime material plane asunder into tiny bits of torn reality.

Step 1: Become a Lich or some other being that doesn't age.
Step 2: Know the disintegrate spell.


You can't kill a Greater God (we'll assume epic rules are not in play).

"Hey, Pelor! Maglubiyet! Boccob! Gruumsh!"
"Yes, Mortal?"
"I AM THE MOON."
"Why, so you are."
"Go kill Corellon Larethian."
"We will!"

[faceroll]

Step 1: Become a Lich or some other being that doesn't age.
Step 2: Know the disintegrate spell.

Shapechange into Beholder, get disintegrate 1/round as a free action. Little faster.

[Drachasor]

Shapechange into Beholder, get disintegrate 1/round as a free action. Little faster.

To be fair, I meant ripping space-time into pieces.

[Rogue Shadows]

To be fair, I meant ripping space-time into pieces.

Oh, heck, that's easy. Use that time travel spell to go Back to the Beginning and cast disintegrate on the singularity.

Or just piss off Ao enough.

[ryu]

Does anyone else think this discussion of supposed limits is fun? I think this is fun.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Yes, but my point is that the current discussion is about those rare occasion themselves. To me, what you are saying is like looking at the spell and saying "ok, so maybe 5% of all possible questions are blocked by another deity". Now let's look at those 5%...well, only 5% of those [5%] should be blocked right?

When you are dealing with future, major events, that's the exact type of rare circumstance that is most likely to be blocked.

The other line of note is: "(Random results obtained from the table are subject to the personalities of individual deities.) "

Which means that the DM can ignore the random table completely. If answering the particular question you have put forth is within the capabilities of the deity (in theory), that doesn't mean they'll answer it. If you ask "How far away is the big bad?" you can't count on getting an answer. Sure, a deity could find out, but that doesn't mean they'd expend the resources to go looking around on the Prime Material just to answer your question. COP doesn't make you a super VIP that a deity is going to focus significant resources on (and even ONE remote sensing "window" is a significant resource for a greater deity).

So I really don't think it is feasible, given these limits, to get location and other information necessary for a pinpoint strike with just one spell (even cast multiple times). That doesn't mean there's not a TON of information you can get -- it would not be unreasonable, most of the time to find out frequent haunts of the BBEG and perhaps even the general area for his base of operations. Almost any question you ask WILL get answered. It's just the tiniest selection that this thread has been focused on that would reasonably give problems.


What How is the descusion about rare events. We are talking about
1.Getting information Regarding a BBEG, which doesnt meen that the BBEG is on a world changing scale(though it could be) In which case you are correct, and I don't think any one would realy argue you there.
2.Getting what spells they should prepare the next day. Again not really a rare event.
3. Get information about potential fights the next day.

Hardly rare. Though I agree if you where on some epic quest of World changing then yes there is a good chance your divinations will be thwarted especially if it is dealing with agents of a diety. However If it is just dealing with the guy that stole the princess for a given town or to track down some bandits how is that RARE? Would you at least agree that on non rare occasion's the spell works as we have been arguing about? This also assumes that not ever adventure/plot/game is considered rare, which if your games are then well that makes sense.

[Yora]

Does anyone else think this discussion of supposed limits is fun? I think this is fun.

But it doesn't help me at al with my question.

[Frozen_Feet]

That's more vague than any divination answer in the book, in my estimation. Please CLARIFY and SPECIFY what sort of stuff would be considered legitimate for CoP in your campaign.

*Groan* You understand that by his outline, the answer would be situational? That is, it's impossible to give a definite answer outside an actual game scenario. He gave you the best possible answer already; that it requires you to make the necessary conclusions yourself is not a flaw.

Incidentally, this has bearing for CoP as well - since many answers are situational, the knowledge possessed by deities would be as well - a spin on the idea that they know "every possible outcome" instead of one, set future.

This also means that the most useful answers about the future would not be about what will or can possibly happen, but what won't or can't.


PC wizard uses CoP to divine what spells the BBEG is going to prepare, and the party makes preparations.

The BBEG then casts CoP to divine what spells the party wizard has prepared

WTF happens?

The party will be working on outdated information, plain and simple. The deity gave them a correct answer. He couldn't give the correct answer, because it wouldn't have fit within the limits of the spell. Don't believe me? Okay, in whichever language you can speak, fit the following into less than five words: "If the enemy doesn't acquire information about you during timespan X, he will prepare Y spells; if he does, he will prepare spells that will be ideally suited to countering your -Y spells."

Or, alternatively, try to deduce the correct answer(s) in less than hours of actual time spend on interrogating the GM / God.

Before someone cries this means Gods don't know the future (again)m I'd like to point out that this is not true; they do know it. The problem is not with the answer, it's with the question. In a multi-path future, you need to outline the question very specifically to get the most useful answer. Even then, giving a sufficiently conscise answer would be absurdly difficult. Even simplest if-then clauses usually take more than five words to express.

[NichG]

Hardly rare. Though I agree if you where on some epic quest of World changing then yes there is a good chance your divinations will be thwarted especially if it is dealing with agents of a diety. However If it is just dealing with the guy that stole the princess for a given town or to track down some bandits how is that RARE? Would you at least agree that on non rare occasion's the spell works as we have been arguing about? This also assumes that not ever adventure/plot/game is considered rare, which if your games are then well that makes sense.

I think the assumption has been that BBEG = end boss of the campaign, which is more likely to be world-shatteringly important. I don't think anyone has argued that 'where is that troll that attacked the caravan lairing?' or 'Will we be attacked by sea monsters on our next sea voyage?' is the sort of question that greater gods are blocking (though on the second one, people are arguing for the fallibility of the information given the rigors of time travel)

Then there's the side point of how to deal with vague (and really difficult for the DM to answer) questions like 'what is the best spell for me to prepare today?' which on the meta level amounts to 'tell me how to play my character, DM, and if you give me bad advice or if I could have done it better I'll accuse you of stealth-nerfing divinations'.

[ryu]

But it doesn't help me at al with my question.

The answer I like best has already been given. Why didn't we teleport three days ago? Double easy if you use scrying to know the location and possibly even what you'll need to kill to get your mystical artifact.

[Amphetryon]

*Groan* You understand that by his outline, the answer would be situational? That is, it's impossible to give a definite answer outside an actual game scenario. He gave you the best possible answer already; that it requires you to make the necessary conclusions yourself is not a flaw.

I understand that I am asking for a specific, situational answer that satisfies his metric. My request included an understood provision that background pertaining to a given situation was required, but that the inability to provide an answer that satisfied the given metric while being pertinent to a given situation did not, in fact, indicate that an answer was already provided. To my reading, this answer has not been provided, and therefore does not meet the metric of "best possible answer."

[NNescio]

To be fair, I meant ripping space-time into pieces.

1d2 Crusader.

[JaronK]

Could you clarify this? It sounds intriguing but I don't quite see what you're getting at. You fast forward to the event in question, so they have the information? Or when they get there, you tell them "this is what you divined, what were your preparations?"

That last one sounds most likely. Also, eminently workable. Hm.

The last one is precisely right. If I can, as the DM, give the answer appropriately then I do. But sometimes the player asks me something I just don't know now, so I'll let them know that they got an answer and move on. Then when it's relevant and we know the answer I can say "okay, you were told X when you asked yesterday about this. Without massively changing everything too much, what additional preparations might you have made to deal with this fact?" And then I let them do things retroactively like changing out what items they got, or what spells they prepared, or their approach to the situation. For example, maybe I didn't know that the next thing that would drop a party member below half health was going to be a trap (because I didn't know how well they'd deal with the next few encounters). So when the Cleric accidentally walks into a nasty trap and gets hit really hard, I can then say "okay, the divination spell said "Trap", what would you do" and then I'd let them be more cautious and do something like having the Rogue searching more thoroughly, thus giving them a retroactive roll to find that trap because they were on alert, and I think it's reasonable that they'd do that.

I actually had to develop this system a while ago when trying to deal with an Augury spam response to the Deck of Many Things. You know the trick... cast the spell, ask "if I take the top card from the deck, is that a good idea?" If you get "Weal" as a response, the next casting asks "If I take the top card from the deck, then the next top card from the deck, is that a good idea." If that then gets "Weal and Woe" the next question would be "If I take the top card from the deck, then take the second from the top card from the deck, would that be a good idea?" and so on. Well, the deck is supposed to shuffle between draws sometimes, so in that case I'd actually do the draws and record them (without showing the players those cards) and then give them the results when they picked their draw. From there I continued this idea on to the full system.

It works pretty darn well, and turns out to be a lot of fun for the players (but I'd never let my players have a Deck of Many Things again!).

JaronK

[Drakevarg]

I understand that I am asking for a specific, situational answer that satisfies his metric. My request included an understood provision that background pertaining to a given situation was required, but that the inability to provide an answer that satisfied the given metric while being pertinent to a given situation did not, in fact, indicate that an answer was already provided. To my reading, this answer has not been provided, and therefore does not meet the metric of "best possible answer."

Alright, so a random example of a reasonable use of CoP? Consider this:

You're trying to ransack a fort full of Duergar, but have no intel on what's inside. Your normal scries aren't working, perhaps because a caster inside has put up the necessary defenses. You still want to know what you're up against, so you cast CoP. This isn't a major operation, so you contact the Plane of Earth since the place is underground.

On the other end of the line, a random elemental picks up. He's surprisingly accepting of the intrusion, because casters have a tendency to yank him and his kind into the Material Plane for work anyway. This is roughly equivalent to asking a random stranger for directions. So, you start questioning him.

"How many people are inside this fort?"

Unfortunately, since the Duergar tend to come and go and the elemental can't see inside the fort, it doesn't know exactly how many people are inside.

"Unsure."

Troubling, but since it answered 'unsure' and not 'unknown,' it implies that it knows something about the matter but not complete details. Perhaps something more precise.

"How many casters are inside the fort?"

Now this the elemental CAN answer, as a few of its fellow elementals have been summoned as guardians there before by said casters.

"Three."

Now we're getting somewhere. Now for details. We know at least one of the casters is a diviner because your normal scrying spells were blocked, but what of the other two?

"What sort of caster is the first of the three?"

Since which one qualifies as 'first' isn't specified, the elemental picks at random, starting with the caster it knows the most about.

"Sorcerer."

Well, that doesn't tell you much. There are all sorts of sorcerers.

"What does the sorcerer specialize in?"

"Summoning."

So, now you have some specific tactical details. But the specifics are uncertain.

"What sort of creatures does the summoner prefer to use?"

This seems obvious to the elemental given how it knows this, but it'll humor you.

"Elementals."

You still need to know what sort to determine your offensive strategy, so you try to narrow it down.

"What kind of elemental?"

And now you've hit an obstacle. After all, the elemental isn't too keen on helping you hurt its own kind, so it lies to you.

"Air."

Since the elemental's been helpful so far, you don't question this, and keep getting intel.

"Okay, what's the second caster?"

Again, you didn't tell it what you already thought of, so it tells you the next one it thinks of.

"Wizard."

"What sort of wizard?"

"Diviner."

Well, that's hardly helpful. You knew that already since you can't scry in there yourself. But you can't begrudge the elemental for not knowing what you know.

"And what's the third caster?"

"Cleric."

"What sort of cleric?"

The cleric is the leader of the establishment and mostly just orders the others around, so the elemental doesn't know what he's like in action. He does know, however, that the cleric wears a ring with the symbol of Hextor on it, so it uses that to statisfy the criteria of 'what sort of cleric.'

"Hextor."

That's not what you wanted, so you clarify.

"Yes, but what sort of spells does he cast?"

This the elemental doesn't know, and tells you as much.

"Unknown."

Deciding that you can't glean any more from this, you thank the elemental for its time and end the spell.

How's that?

[Drachasor]

What How is the descusion about rare events. We are talking about
1.Getting information Regarding a BBEG, which doesnt meen that the BBEG is on a world changing scale(though it could be) In which case you are correct, and I don't think any one would realy argue you there.
2.Getting what spells they should prepare the next day. Again not really a rare event.
3. Get information about potential fights the next day.

What spells they have prepared? I'd generally say that falls under the "not enough power to get" or "the deity isn't going to spend his precious resources finding out". The latter is about the personality of the deity and that they have a lot of important stuff to be doing with their remote sensing capabilities and not a lot of capacity. It isn't like deities know everything either.

Now, you could certainly find out the class, specializations, probably what sorts of things he likes to do with magic. Exact spell list though? That just doesn't seem reasonable to me at all. It would be like asking how many grains of sand are on a beach. A lot of deities can theoretically answer that question, but it isn't a trivial exercise of their power -- even for a greater deity that's 5% of their remote sensing capability tied up right there.

Now, if my group asked about what spell would be good to have the next day, I might have a solid answer. So they could get something like "Water Breathing" or "Unsure/Unknown/*Shrug*". It depends on the situation. By RAW, honestly, Deities have a pretty limited set of abilities for knowing the future. They know about what is happening around events concerning their portfolio and that's it. So honestly, if you ask "What enemies will I fight tomorrow?" it is entirely reasonable they'd answer "Unsure." If you ask "What am I likely to fight?" Then due to the fact they know a lot of stuff, they might say "lizardmen" because you are near a xenophobic lizardman tribe.

Deities can maintain an infinite number of conversations at once. CoP, imho, initiates one for free (they don't have to spend a standard action). That means a deity can freely give you any information they know, but it doesn't mean they are going to exert any work finding out stuff they don't already know. Extreme specifics on a mortal fall into the latter category (like asking how many times the BBEG went to the bathroom in the last 12 hours).

[Jack_Simth]

How's that?
Has a slight problem if you're trying to follow RAW (and if you're not, that's not a fundamental problem, but is something you should discuss with your players before the Wizard picks that spell):

You're picking Know / Don't know / Lie / Random based on what's 'reasonable' for a relatively random entity on the Elemental Plane of Earth. That's not how the spell is listed. The spell is listed as being the results of a die roll... and yes, that includes funny stuff like calling the god of Magic, and not having him know what Magic Missile does ("Don't know" has a 2% chance, "random answer" a 1% chance, for a Greater deity - if you're hunting for it, it will still come up eventually).

[Drachasor]

Has a slight problem if you're trying to follow RAW (and if you're not, that's not a fundamental problem, but is something you should discuss with your players before the Wizard picks that spell):

You're picking Know / Don't know / Lie / Random based on what's 'reasonable' for a relatively random entity on the Elemental Plane of Earth. That's not how the spell is listed. The spell is listed as being the results of a die roll... and yes, that includes funny stuff like calling the god of Magic, and not having him know what Magic Missile does ("Don't know" has a 2% chance, "random answer" a 1% chance, for a Greater deity - if you're hunting for it, it will still come up eventually).

Which is why the spell says that to bear in mind "(Random results obtained from the table are subject to the personalities of individual deities.) "

Though, looking it over, it never actually says the player determines which particular entity is contacted. You can choose a particular plane of existence, you can choose the power of the deity, but it doesn't say you can choose WHICH deity. Heck, it doesn't even say you ever know what deity you reached.

[Drakevarg]

You're picking Know / Don't know / Lie / Random based on what's 'reasonable' for a relatively random entity on the Elemental Plane of Earth. That's not how the spell is listed. The spell is listed as being the results of a die roll... and yes, that includes funny stuff like calling the god of Magic, and not having him know what Magic Missile does ("Don't know" has a 2% chance, "random answer" a 1% chance, for a Greater deity - if you're hunting for it, it will still come up eventually).

The spell IS listed that way once you get up to asking gods. As has been mentioned several times in this thread:

Once the Outer Planes are reached, the power of the deity contacted determines the effects. (Random results obtained from the table are subject to DM changes, the personalities of individual deities, and so on.)

Although it's true that at the Elemental Planes level it is random. I just gave RP reasons for what could just as easily have been random answers. After all, isn't it one of the marks of a good DM to be able to take things that don't make sense and make it seem like you planned it all along?

[RagnaroksChosen]

I think the assumption has been that BBEG = end boss of the campaign, which is more likely to be world-shatteringly important. I don't think anyone has argued that 'where is that troll that attacked the caravan lairing?' or 'Will we be attacked by sea monsters on our next sea voyage?' is the sort of question that greater gods are blocking (though on the second one, people are arguing for the fallibility of the information given the rigors of time travel)


I disagree with you... Fighting the end boss of a dungion crawl would be hardly world shattering. Not all games have that epic feel or the world changing events some are very simple. One of my favorite games was a game where we where playing town gaurds and the kinds of shananigens we got into. Our BBEG was some caster i can't remember the name of the class atm.



What spells they have prepared? I'd generally say that falls under the "not enough power to get" or "the deity isn't going to spend his precious resources finding out". The latter is about the personality of the deity and that they have a lot of important stuff to be doing with their remote sensing capabilities and not a lot of capacity. It isn't like deities know everything either.

Depends on the diety I guess as well as the target, I would expect a god of magic to know what spells a sorcerer knows or even what spells a caster generaly casts. I don't know always seemed reasonable. Seeing as they are instantly aware of any one casting a spell.
But I guess that is opinion I have no raw to back it up.




Now, you could certainly find out the class, specializations, probably what sorts of things he likes to do with magic. Exact spell list though? That just doesn't seem reasonable to me at all. It would be like asking how many grains of sand are on a beach. A lot of deities can theoretically answer that question, but it isn't a trivial exercise of their power -- even for a greater deity that's 5% of their remote sensing capability tied up right there.

Again this is making the assumption that what you are asking for is being asked to the correct deity. Even without remote sensing Im pritty sure if its in there porfolio they know who or what is triggering said event? Or alteast thats how I understood it.



Now, if my group asked about what spell would be good to have the next day, I might have a solid answer. So they could get something like "Water Breathing" or "Unsure/Unknown/*Shrug*". It depends on the situation. By RAW, honestly, Deities have a pretty limited set of abilities for knowing the future. They know about what is happening around events concerning their portfolio and that's it. So honestly, if you ask "What enemies will I fight tomorrow?" it is entirely reasonable they'd answer "Unsure." If you ask "What am I likely to fight?" Then due to the fact they know a lot of stuff, they might say "lizardmen" because you are near a xenophobic lizardman tribe.

Again it depends on what your asking seeing as all the examples so far provided by you have been gods I would say that if you asking a god of battle what you are to face the next day they would know pretty well. But this is where setting comes into effect does fate exist do all players have a predetermined path.
Saphs games fate doesn't seem to be there which is fine. No biggy not every one likes the fate thing. Personaly I love having fate play a part in the gods as well as alot of other things. I said this before though so I won't go back.



Deities can maintain an infinite number of conversations at once. CoP, imho, initiates one for free (they don't have to spend a standard action). That means a deity can freely give you any information they know, but it doesn't mean they are going to exert any work finding out stuff they don't already know. Extreme specifics on a mortal fall into the latter category (like asking how many times the BBEG went to the bathroom in the last 12

I don't know again if it where a god of the restroom's then it would know. I agree with you about not all gods knowing, but I think that is half the fun of the spell is figuring out what dieties are going to be best to ask. Especialy if you play in a world like FR, where there are hundreds of gods....

[Drachasor]

Depends on the diety I guess as well as the target, I would expect a god of magic to know what spells a sorcerer knows or even what spells a caster generaly casts. I don't know always seemed reasonable. Seeing as they are instantly aware of any one casting a spell.
But I guess that is opinion I have no raw to back it up.

In most settings Gods of Magic just keep things going right, but they don't seem to be aware of what every caster is doing at any given moment. At least going by the novels I've read. They MIGHT be aware whenever a spell is cast though.


Again this is making the assumption that what you are asking for is being asked to the correct deity. Even without remote sensing Im pritty sure if its in there porfolio they know who or what is triggering said event? Or alteast thats how I understood it.

Well, you're kind of assuming you get to pick the god that answers your call. The spell just says you pick the plane. If a Cleric wants to talk to their deity, they cast Commune (though they don't necessarily get in touch with their god -- might just be agents). Otherwise, good luck talking to a particular one. Heck, it doesn't even say you are ever aware of what deity or entity is on the other end of the line.



Again it depends on what your asking seeing as all the examples so far provided by you have been gods I would say that if you asking a god of battle what you are to face the next day they would know pretty well. But this is where setting comes into effect does fate exist do all players have a predetermined path.
Saphs games fate doesn't seem to be there which is fine. No biggy not every one likes the fate thing. Personaly I love having fate play a part in the gods as well as alot of other things. I said this before though so I won't go back.

Even if you get a God of Battle, their personality might well be disinclined to give you precise details of the enemy. After all, the fight is YOUR struggle to overcome.

As for future events, looking over it, here's what a deity knows:

When a deity senses an event, it merely knows that the event is occurring and where it is. The deity receives no sensory information about the event.

That's without it putting any special effort into it (considering the deity is by default annoyed with you pestering it, that's a safe assumption). So it would be quite reasonable for a DM to decide the deity might be aware of possible battles in your area (assuming an Intermediate or Greater Deity, since other ones need 500+ people involved). It might know nothing more than "A battle will happen in such and such a location at 2pm tomorrow".


I don't know again if it where a god of the restroom's then it would know. I agree with you about not all gods knowing, but I think that is half the fun of the spell is figuring out what dieties are going to be best to ask. Especialy if you play in a world like FR, where there are hundreds of gods....

Well, unfortunately the spell doesn't work by you deciding which god to call. You just get to pick the plane and the power of the entity (well, I'm assuming the one, the spell doesn't actually say you pick the deity's power level -- slightly implies it though).

[BoutsofInsanity]

I have 2 problems with this scrying crap. As a DM and a player, while the wizard is doing all this, what are the other party members doing? You just spent an hour asking for answers while everyone else just twiddles their thumbs while the wizard one on one talks with the dm?

2nd a good DM knows that even a being that has to answer truthfully can twist the truth. Case and point are the fey. Enslaving mortals sense the dawn of their existence and they cant lie. So run the all powerful beings being questioned like that, why answer this mortal completely, tell half truths and hints, giving the diviner clues and hints to piece together out of game what might occur.

PC. Will the BBEG cast slay living on the party?
DM. No (as in the party random NPC John is throwing for his little girl)
PC. Will the BBEG cast slay living on me?
DM. No (But the rogue looks like a good option)
PC. Will the BBEG cast slay living on my party members around me in a 20 ft radius?
DM. Likely...

Scrying seems fun, but it also shouldnt be straight answers. These beings are all powerful, but why answer a mortal completly. A good DM will give half truths and hints to give the diviner a nice idea what to prepare for or a general location (unless the question was that specific) of the BBEG. But to haggle out with the dm all the answers seems rude.

[Thespianus]

A lot of it depends on your setting as well, and how you as a DM want the gods to "work" within your take on that setting.

If chatting up Greater Deities is something that you as a DM consider that a level 10 wizard should be able to do with no risk at all, every morning, before having breakfast, then give distinct answers to any type of question and allow the Wizard to take ten on the int check.

If chatting up Greater Deities is something that you as a DM consider as a severe threat to any mere mortal's sanity, and that "historically" the answers given by oracles etc are fuzzy at best, then give fuzzy answers and make the player risk his spellcasting for 5 weeks by rolling the int check.

As long as this is established beforehand and it works the same way for PCs as for NPCs , I really don't see the problem. I would prefer the second campaign setting for my games, but that's just a personal preference.

If a player up and leaves because his 5th level spell didn't give him detailed answers on future events or he has to roll to keep his spellcasting, that's too bad.

[RagnaroksChosen]

In most settings Gods of Magic just keep things going right, but they don't seem to be aware of what every caster is doing at any given moment. At least going by the novels I've read. They MIGHT be aware whenever a spell is cast though.

Fair enough I'm used to FR gods who would know that.




Well, you're kind of assuming you get to pick the god that answers your call. The spell just says you pick the plane. If a Cleric wants to talk to their deity, they cast Commune (though they don't necessarily get in touch with their god -- might just be agents). Otherwise, good luck talking to a particular one. Heck, it doesn't even say you are ever aware of what deity or entity is on the other end of the line.

I was not talking about CoP specificaly... but after re reading some of your posts you where pritty much talking about it. So that is fair enough, I've always had the view of the spell similarly to how it works in the books (like the story books not manuels) where any commune or divination spell that you are contacting a major being is actualy talking to one of its handservents rather then the diety it self. but again thats not raw.





Even if you get a God of Battle, their personality might well be disinclined to give you precise details of the enemy. After all, the fight is YOUR struggle to overcome.

As for future events, looking over it, here's what a deity knows:


That's without it putting any special effort into it (considering the deity is by default annoyed with you pestering it, that's a safe assumption). So it would be quite reasonable for a DM to decide the deity might be aware of possible battles in your area (assuming an Intermediate or Greater Deity, since other ones need 500+ people involved). It might know nothing more than "A battle will happen in such and such a location at 2pm tomorrow".

Ya again Dieties are very setting specific. I assume for the purposes of a RAW discussion that. A. Generaly the setting favors the PC's, B. That any overly obvious interaction won't work... LG caster contacts a CE diety.
Now granted when I run games they generaly are not twords the PC's favor but thats cuz My pc's perfer to be up against the odds rather then knowing they have an easy time or there are "fair "encounters.



Well, unfortunately the spell doesn't work by you deciding which god to call. You just get to pick the plane and the power of the entity (well, I'm assuming the one, the spell doesn't actually say you pick the deity's power level -- slightly implies it though).

Well again I was talking about all divinations, However it seems most people for this discussion have been talking about the diety + part of the table so it is reasonable to assume that you will get a diety as it does say that(specificaly the part of the table that goes after "Outer Plane, demideity")

So there is a good chance if you are contacting like the plane of mechanics. How many Demideitys + are running around with divine ranks? Again setting specific, but it does say that you talk to a diety and they do have portfolio sense. But I agree are they going to spend an action to find specifics?
I don't know, VIA RAW I would say yes as generaly when I look at RAW I take out all the setting specific stuff so Dities are personalityless. therefor it would work. The RAW of the spell is written like that so when we do introduce setting specific stuff GMs are free to tweek the spell with out breaking raw.